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Jack Ryan

All Eight Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses members are now individually named on two New York Child Victims Act case documents

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Arauna said:
     

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    11 hours ago, AlanF said:

    will end Real Soon Now, and that my various quotes such as the above showed how the Watchtower Society has made many false predictions of "the end", such as for 1925. Like Mommy like daughter.

I can see by this statement that you have no clue about developments in the world.

 

Actually I do. I get most of my news from comedy shows like Saturday Night Live, The Tonight Show with Steven Colbert, etc. Far more reliable than plain old cable TV news.

But you're deliberately missing my point: A long history of failed predictions of specific dates for "the end" (1914, 1918, 1925, 1975, 2000) plus a history of generally false predictions, prove that JW leaders have no actual understanding of whatever the Bible really says or of world events. By the same token, neither do you.

Furthermore, you're ignoring the Bible's counsel: "Do not interpretations belong to God?"--Gen. 40:8. These interpretations are not of the Bible itself, but of things going on in the world.

Here you go trying to interpret world events:

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In next three years - China will become a threat......to patrol the seas with all the ports it has already acquired and still expanding..... and economic pushing going on as we speak.  Their purpose? To control the wealth of the world.  They are taking over all mining minerals and gold in Africa and the Asian Seas close to Australia.  Also building the new silk road. Russia doing the same - expanding influence. Daniel 11:40 onward.... America has been sleeping while their all their intellectual property was stolen when they moved IT factories to China.  China installing G5 technology in Europe for surveillance..... and the list goes on.

Wow, Daniel 11:40 onward. This is a prime example of what I said above.

You might not know this, but at least as far back as the beginning of WWII the Society has been claiming that various political entities constituted the "king of the north" and the "king of the south", and that these would battle each other, culminating in Armageddon. They have never failed to be wrong. For example:

In the 1941 booklet Comfort All That Mourn, the Society identified the "king of the north" as the Axis powers and the "king of the south" as the British Commonwealth. It said:

<<
Now all the world witnesses "the king of the north" and "the king of the south" in the deadly grip of war, to determine which shall rule the world. (p. 15)

The prophecy of Daniel, at the eleventh chapter, proceeds to detail the struggle between "the king of the north" and "the king of the south", and definitely tells of the everlasting end of the totalitarian rule and that the Axis combine, the dictatorial rule, shall soon cease for ever. (p. 16)

While the two kings, "the king of the north" and "the king of the south", engage in the most deadly and destructive war of all time, the God of heaven sets up his kingdom, as Jehovah by his prophecy of Daniel foretold: "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."--Daniel 2:44. . . During the past few years the Lord has sent forth his servants to bear witness before the people of and concerning his kingdom, and, this done, there shall follow quickly "the battle of that great day of God Almighty", and which will be the greatest tribulation the world will ever have known. . . The power of the Lord at Armageddon, exercised against God's enemies,will put an everlasting end to the "Axis powers" and to all similar powers of wickedness. (pp. 21-22)
>>

Did Armageddon come during the midst of WWII as the Society claimed it would? No. Another failed prediction supposedly based on "the Bible" but was merely among the "dreams and guesses" of false teachers like Fred Franz.

A few years later the 1958 book Your Will Be Done on Earth forgot all about the failed 1941 prediction, and came up with a new raft of predictions about the kings of the north and south. By that time, of course, the cold war was ongoing between the Soviet bloc and the Anglo-American bloc. The book took three chapters to expound on Fred Franz's fanciful interpretations of Daniel, Revelation and so forth. He actually claimed that these kings have existed since Daniel's day! This was ridiculous because he very well that the events of Daniel 11 are supposed to be fulfilled during "the time of the end". Of course, today the Society has given up on nearly all of these idiotic notions. Here are a few things the 1958 book predicted:

<<
The king of the south and the king of the north stand at Armageddon... In the confused fighting between the "two kings" as crazed enemies of Jehovah God and his kingdom, the "kings" will have opportunity and occasion to try out and use their frightful, deadly weapons of all kinds against each other. (p. 297)

Jehovah's angel foretold further aggressions by the Communist king of the north before his end in Armageddon: "And he will stretch forth his hand against some countries, and the land of Egypt will not escape. And he will have control over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the costly things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians will follow at his steps."... How far the king of the north will have got when he reaches his "time of the end" the future alone will tell. But he is predicted to gain control over the treasures of gold, silver and all the precious things of this commercialized, materialistic world, including oil. (pp. 300, 303)
>>

Did any that happen? No. Rather, in 1991 the Soviet bloc collapsed, leaving the Society no "king of the north" to prophesy about.

A handful of years before that collapse, the July 1, 1987 Watchtower more or less repeated the 1958 nonsense. Note these claims:

<<
Many years ago, Jehovah revealed the historical development of events that would lead up to his bringing peace to the earth. Through an angel, he spoke to his faithful prophet Daniel about "the final part of the days," our own time. (Daniel 10:4) He foretold today's superpower rivalry and showed that it will soon end in a way that neither power suspects... (p. 11)

The disposition of the latest king of the north is well described in verses 37, 38 [of Dan. 11]: "And to the God of his fathers he will give no consideration ... But to the god of fortresses, in his position he will give glory; and to a god that his fathers did not know he will give glory by means of gold and by means of silver and by means of precious stone and by means of desirable things." Can anyone fail to recognize this description? Todays king of the north officially promotes atheism, rejecting the religious gods of previous kings of the north. He prefers to trust in armaments, "the god of fortresses."... (pp. 13-14)

So what finally happens between these two kings? The angel says: "And in the time of the end [the end of the history of the two kings] the king of the south will engage with him in a pushing, and against him the king of the north will storm with chariots and with horsemen and with many ships." (Daniel 11:40; Matthew 24:3) Clearly, summit conferences are no solution to the superpower rivalry. The tensions caused by the 'pushing' of the king of the south and the expansionism of the king of the north may go through more or less intense phases; but eventually, in some way, the king of the north will be provoked into the excessively violent action described by Daniel. (p. 14)
>>

The Society has long claimed that those who are of the "anointed class" fulfill Daniel 12:3, 4, which reads, in The New World Translation:

<< And the ones having insight will shine like the brightness of the expanse; and those who are bringing the many to righteousness, like the stars to time indefinite, even forever. And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant. >>

The Society has long taught that the ones of Jehovah's Witnesses of the "anointed class" are "the ones having insight", as shown by the July 1, 1987, Watchtower, which said, on pages 23-5, under the sub-title "True Knowledge Will Become Abundant":

<<
But for those who remain faithful, the prophecy says: "And the ones having insight will shine like the brightness of the expanse; and those who are bringing the many to righteousness, like the stars to time indefinite, even forever." (Daniel 12:3) "The ones having insight" are clearly the faithful remaining members of the anointed Christian congregation, who are 'filled with accurate knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual comprehension.'... Ever since 1919, though 'darkness itself covers the earth, and thick gloom the national groups,' they have been "shining as illuminators" among mankind. (Isaiah 60:2; Philippians 2:15; Matthew 5:14-16) They "shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father." -- Matthew 13:43.

How do they prove to be "those who are bringing the many to righteousness"? (Daniel 12:3) Thanks to their faithful witnessing, the final ones of spiritual Israel have been gathered in and declared righteous for life in the heavens. Additionally, a great crowd of "other sheep" has manifested itself, flocking to the light from Jehovah as reflected by 'Daniel's people.'...

The angel then offers words of counsel to Daniel: "And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant." (Daniel 12:4) These words arrest our attention. Although the angel's prophecy concerning the two kings began to be fulfilled some 2,300 years ago, the understanding of it has been opened up primarily during "the time of the end," particularly since 1919. In these days, "many ... rove about" in the Bible, and true knowledge has indeed become abundant. Now is the time that Jehovah has given knowledge to understanding ones...

Stay close, then, to "the ones having insight," who are 'shining like the brightness of the expanse.'
>>

The above means that during "the time of the end", true knowledge would become abundant due to teaching by "the ones having insight." This would especially include understanding the book of Daniel itself, since Dan. 12:9-10 says:

<< And he went on to say: "Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end... And the wicked ones will certainly act wickedly, and no wicked ones at all will understand; but the ones having insight will understand." >>

Clearly, then, by the Society's own teachings, which include that we are now in "the time of the end", JW leaders obviously do not understand Daniel and so are not among "the ones having insight" but among "the wicked ones".

Alternatively, we are not in "the time of the end", which reveals another huge raft of false claims by JW leaders.

The above-quoted passages from JW publications are not unique in claiming that JW leaders are "the ones having insight" into Daniel's prophecies and world events:

<< To us in this "time of the end" Daniel's book has been opened and unsealed. (p. 328; see also Apr. 1, 1960 Watchtower, p. 222).

Only the Scripturally intelligent ones will be allowed to understand the book of Daniel and all the rest of the Bible. (p. 333; see also Apr. 15, 1960 Watchtower, p. 250). >>

From the May 15, 1969 Watchtower:

<<
We should take great delight in examining Daniel's words for our day, feeling especially privileged to understand what Daniel himself could not discern. (p. 296)

Some of Jehovah's servants might discuss with him [Daniel] the contents of the book "Your Will Be Done on Earth," which volume contains a detailed discussion of many of Daniel's prophecies. He will be very interested in learning how his wonderful prophecies worked out, to God's glory. We will be interested in his reactions and rejoice with him in his lot. (p. 308)

Yes, the angel associate of Michael pointed out a great work for the true followers of the Messianic Prince Michael in this "time of the end." Here is the prophecy: "The ones having insight will shine like the brightness of the expanse; and those who are bringing the many to righteousness, like the stars to time indefinite, even forever." (Dan. 12:3) Here, then, is foretold the work for us today. Spiritually intelligent ones must shine with heavenly light. With the good news of the newborn kingdom of God, Jehovah's witnesses have shone like the sun, which lets nothing be concealed from its heat all around the globe. In the midnight darkness of this world we must be like stars of light, to help many more of the "other sheep" turn to righteousness, which is the worship and ministry of the grand God, Jehovah. Living as we do in this "time of the end" since Michael the Great Prince stood up in heaven, we are living in a time more highly favored than that of Daniel. Daniel's book has been opened up. Blessed are those who act in harmony with Daniel's words for our day! (p. 309)
>>

The 1977 book Our Incoming World Government--God's Kingdom said:

<<
We are living in a favored time... the "time of the end." It is the time for increased spiritual enlightenment, for much of the unexplained prophecies of the Holy Bible, including Daniel's prophecy, to be opened up to our minds and hearts. Ours is the time to which the angel pointed forward when he said to Daniel: "And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant." -- Daniel 12:4. (p. 125)

Daniel "could not understand" what he heard, in his day. But we, in this day, in this "time of the end" since 1914, can understand. (p. 132)
>>

So then, according to Dan. 12:3, 4, 10, the "ones having insight" would understand the prophecies that Daniel had been told to seal up, and would make them abundantly known. The book of Daniel itself clearly implies that the "ones having insight" cannot be wrong when they make "abundantly known" the interpretation of the prophecies of Daniel. Since the Watchtower Society's interpretations of Daniel are clearly in error, Jehovah's Witnesses are not the "ones having insight." But as they claim this designation, they must therefore be false teachers, and by their own standard of judgement, false prophets.

As The Watch Tower of May 15, 1930, pages 154-155, said:

<< A true prophet is one who is faithfully proclaiming what is written in the Bible... But it may be asked, How are we to know whether one is a true or a false prophet? There are at least three ways by which we can positively decide: (1) If he is a true prophet, his message will come to pass exactly as prophesied. If he is a false prophet, his prophecy will fail to come to pass... The difference between a true and a false prophet is that the one is speaking the word of the Lord and the other is speaking his own dreams and guesses... The true prophet of God today will be telling forth what the Bible teaches, and those things that the Bible tells us are soon to come to pass. He will not be sounding forth man-made theories or guesses, either his own or those of others... In the New Testament, and in our day, the word "prophet" has a thought similar to that of our word "teacher," in the sense of a public expounder. Hence when the term "false prophet" is used, we shall get the correct thought if we think of a false teacher. >>

Because JW leaders claim to be Jehovah's representatives and teach that they speak in his name, they are unarguably teaching false things in God's name--their "own dreams and guesses". They are "sounding forth man-made theories or guesses". Thus, by their own words, they are false teachers and therefore false prophets.

Here we find Arauna continuing to violate the spirit of "do not interpretations belong to God?"

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The racial acrimony in USA is growing as is the political strife ( between clay and iron) daniel 2:  43,44.  Some commentators call it the "new cold civil war" .  The new anti-white sentiment is growing as is the anti-Christian, anti-patriarcal sentiment.  The new aggressive feminism inspired by Frankfort School together with anti-western hate inspired by all the funding coming into USA by front organizations by countries like Qatar, China, and other Islamic extreme organizations which openly do business in USA...... because money is the God of USA.

UN is already giving orders behind the scenes with agreements that were signed by 176 nations.......Agenda 21, Agenda 2030 and UN Migration Compact 2018. Another prophecy going into fulfillment which by the way, mommy WT identified as - UN or a  coalition of nations - years ago.

Things are moving ...... not  exactly in timing as mommy WT organization predicted BUT as the bible predicted........ and you are the scoffer in this picture!

 

I'm glad to see you admitting that Mommy Watchtower got so much wrong, as shown above. But your claim that "the Bible predicted" these things is of no more import than the many claims of JW leaders that have gone unfilled -- which is ALL of them.

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So please go do some more delving into stuff written by mommy WT organization in 1879  - 1970......

I think that by now you can see that I have done that. I have a lot more information than what I quoted above.

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and judge her by the inadequate laws and info she had then.....

What? They always claimed that Jehovah God guided and directed them to make all their false interpretations and predictions regarding world events.

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Please do waste your time on the past while the present is going by and you remain so busy delving into the rubbish mommy WT has long ago  discarded and moved on.......

LOL! Calling all that nonsense "rubbish" would have gotten you disfellowshipped when it was "current light".

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Feed your hate ....and superiority....... it will get you a feeling of 'temporary' satisfaction (an adrenal buzz) for sure

You have no idea how satisfying it is to see you arrogantly continuing to proclaim your knowledge of the future based on your personal interpretations of the Bible and world events. Just like all earlier Watchtower predictions failed, so will yours.

Not that I think the world's future is rosy; far from it. Climate change will royally muck up all manner of things in the next several hundred years. I might be wrong -- hopefully I am -- but I suspect that world civilization will collapse of its own excesses before two centuries roll by. Of course, such a collapse has nothing to do with the interpretations of the Bible by JW leaders, since they've already gotten everything wrong.

On that score, surely you're aware that every claim made about events before and after 1914 is wrong. Not a single visible thing that Russell predicted happened. Nothing that Rutherford claimed were proofs of "the time of the end" shortly after 1914 were valid. Nothing claimed by later JW leaders about "the composite sign" is true; if mankind were being killed off by such horrendous disasters, there would have been a drastic population decline between 1914 and today, but population has increased from about 2 billion to about 8 billion. JWs today pretty much ignore all these facts.

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52 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

He said something and then unsaid it, apparently.

I can't find a trace of it. Figured out from Ann's and JTR that it was something he said, but I really thought he would last this time.

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It would appear that Mr Harley and JW Insider (I think) have a personal need to say that I am John Butler. 

Please remember that John Butler and I are from the UK, so probably have things in common. I followed his comments therefore with interest. I can tell you one thing. If John Butler was disfellowshipped from this forum, it was for, frightening the Elders that run this forum. Mr Harley would rant that the GB were almost indestructable and could not be removed.  John Butler would say that if God wanted the GB gone, they would be gone.  There followed a dispute between someone known as Billy the Kid, whom told John Butler that he was basically cursed and had sold himself to the devil, and had no hope of a resurrection etc. I think there was some sort of threat from this Billy the Kid, about sending John Butler's details to the FBI, or some such.  Anyhow it seems that John Butler had suggested that the GB should be removed, and that was seen as a threat to the GB. Hence it would seem that the elders of this forum removed John Butler, as he was never heard of on here again. 

So, Mr Harley and JW Insider, if you need to think I am John Butler, then to you I am John Butler

For those with more sense if you think I am not John Butler, then I am not. 

Your GB would call that Spiritual Warfare.  

 

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17 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

as a threat to the GB. Hence it would seem that the elders of this forum removed John Butler, as he was never heard of on here again. 

The elders and the GB can take care of themselves. It’s when he failed to laugh at one of my jokes that I decided he was toast.

18 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Mr Harley and JW Insider, if you need to think I am John Butler, then to you I am John Butler

Well....you’re both from the UK, aren’t you? Doesn’t everyone on that island know everyone else?

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23 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

It would appear that Mr Harley and JW Insider (I think) have a personal need to say that I am John Butler. 

I certainly do not think you need to say it, or act like him, or act different from him. For me, it's helpful to try to remember the things that were his greatest concerns, in case you are him. When TTH said you had been DF'd by the elders, I hadn't remembered anything like that about you here, and just thought we shouldn't be quick to judge. If you are JB, I'm glad you're back. There is probably some kind of catharsis that people can get out of these forums. Or perhaps its a way to clear our own thought and logic processes by putting ideas out here for people to respond to. If a persons wants to be here, then they are finding something useful here. I'm all for temporary cool-down periods if things get heaterd, but I don't like the idea that a person gets "banned for life." Especially not people who are looking for a way to find association again with people that once shared a faith or ideology. It doesn't matter if they are critical, as far as I am concerned. I like a challenge.

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Anna said:
     

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    On 11/21/2019 at 9:14 AM, AlanF said:

    Well then, if God didn't appoint Greenlees, how can you think he appointed the others? And which ones do you think that God did appoint? And how would you know?

    On 11/21/2019 at 9:14 AM, AlanF said:

    AlanF: But that all depends on whether the men applying the scriptures do so perfectly. If they do not, then holy spirit could not have appointed the man.

    Anna: No it does not, it does not depend on that. No man can apply the scriptures perfectly. If they could, then there would be no need for Jesus to die. Also, man judges only by what he can see.

    AlanF:What you've just argued -- correctly, I might add -- is that JW elders are NOT appointed by holy spirit, but by imperfect men who may or may not have properly applied the scriptures.
    Read more   

Just because men may or may not apply scripture properly does not automatically mean all elders are NOT appointed by holy spirit.

 

Of course it does! Since no man can perfectly apply scripture, all appointments of elders are done by imperfect men -- not by infallible holy spirit.

Why is that so hard to understand?

You should also know how the Society actually does such appointments. First, a body of elders discusses a man's qualifications. Then they submit a recommendation to the Circuit Oversee (or however it's done today). He in turn sends it along to the Service Department, which reviews the elders' notes and reviews its own files on the man. If all checks out, they send back a Yes note to the congregation. Just men doing perfectly normal things all through the process. See W85 8/1 p. 31 and my 1992-3 analysis of it https://www.critiquesonthewatchtower.org/old-articles/2006/02/part-2-societys-view-of-elders.html.

Below you'll find my experience in finding out that elders are not directly appointed by holy spirit. The time frame is the three years after the failure of the prediction of Armageddon by 1975. You can find a lot more at https://ad1914.com/the-jw-experience-of-alan-feuerbacher/

<<
During this time an incident occurred that was to have a major negative impact on my confidence in Watchtower teaching. A friend in the congregation, a young man a bit younger than me, had supported himself by mowing lawns while pioneering. After he got married, he gradually worked that into a landscaping business, and began hiring young men. He was naïve about business requirements and failed to do all the necessary tax work for the people he hired. At one point, a much older man, a JW elder, found out about the tax slip. Apparently there had been bad blood between the families for a long time, so this elder attempted to have my friend disfellowshipped for breaking Caesar’s law. The body of elders, which included my stepdad, should have ended the matter then and there, because according to
Watchtower Society policy, whether someone fulfills all of Caesar’s requirements is not the elders’ business. But the elders deliberated time after time for six months, acting like the Keystone Kops. At one point they decided to disfellowship, then rescinded that, then went for private reproof. I found out about all this when the matter was about 2/3 finished. Finally the Society was called in, which called in yet another elder body, which decided that the matter never should have been brought up to begin with, since it is not the congregation’s business whether someone handles their taxes properly.

I asked my stepdad about what was going on, and he sheepishly told me. That got me thinking seriously about whether elders really are appointed and directed by holy spirit, as the Society had always taught. If these elders really had the holy spirit’s backing when making their decisions, then why the Keystone Kops behavior? So I asked my stepdad and several other elders to explain all this. They were unable to explain anything to my satisfaction, so I wrote the Society about all this, and so it was arranged that the Circuit Overseer, one Wesley Benner, would explain things to me. We spoke for an hour at my parents’ home, and he certainly cleared things up for me. Benner explainedthat when the Society said that elders are appointed and directed by holy spirit, that was only a manner of speaking. As long as the men who actually appoint them go strictly by the Bible’s standards for appointing elders, then because the Bible is inspired by holy spirit, it can be said that, in effect, holy spirit has appointed or directed the elder.

That did not set well, because that is not the impression one gets from reading Watchtower publications. Rather, the clear implication is that God himself directly appoints elders, and even directly guides them to correct decisions. So I asked Benner if I could summarize the Society’s teaching, and said that he should tell me whether I understood. I asked him point blank: “In one sentence, is it or is it not true that elders are *directly* appointed by holy spirit?” He hesitated, hung his head, and answered, “No.”
>>

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In any case, this is really a different matter altogether. No one can apply scripture perfectly, but they can do their best, however, in the case under discussion, the appointment of elders, men are limited through no fault of their own, because they can only act on what they see, they can't help that. They might be applying the scripture quite correctly, but it's contingent on the person they are considering appointing to actually qualify. But, and we are going round in circles, the elders can only see what is apparent. Therefore logically, if they really do not meet these qualifications, because they have deceptively hidden some pertinent details, or if it was assumed that past sins will no longer occur but they do, then holy spirit was not involved in the appointing, regardless whether men have appointed the person or not. So there are three scenarios, correct appointment,  erroneous appointment, and appointment that is later withdrawn. In the second scenario, the erroneous appointment,  it can happen that a prospective candidate, who is married, is very clever at hiding the fact that he has a lover on the side. Outwardly, he meets all the requirements, and he is appointed an elder. No holy spirit involved there, obviously. Then in the third case, there is the candidate who really meets all the requirements, he is appointed, and it can be said that holy spirit was involved. However, later, that same man acquires a lover on the side, and keeps it well hidden. It is then obvious that he no longer meets the requirements, and holy spirit is no longer involved.

The third scenario illustrates that holy spirit, once given, doesn't mean it can't be withdrawn. Think Judas Iscariot. Similarly, once someone is appointed by holy spirit, doesn't mean that appointment can't be made obsolete, removed. So how would we know? We may not know. But the scriptures say "that which is carefully hidden WILL be exposed".

 

All of that is irrelevant to the question I posed to the Society more than 40 years ago. As Circuit Overseer Benner told me, elders are not directly appointed by holy spirit. Indirect appointment is not direct appointment: it is only a manner of speaking.
     

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    On 11/21/2019 at 9:14 AM, AlanF said:

    In particular, you've explained why the JW Governing Body cannot be spirit-appointed -- that they are counterfeits because their claims are false.

I don't see how I've done that. What are they claiming that's false? Just because Greenlees was apparently not appointed by holy spirit, but by men, doesn't mean the same thing applies to all of them.

 

Of course it does. If the process fails in one case, when the process is supposed to be spirit-directed by infallible holy spirit, the process itself is defective. That means that holy spirit actually has nothing to do with the process, as my experience with the Keystone Kops elders and Brother Benner proves.

Don't you realize that the claim of spirit-direction is a scam? A scam to fool JWs into obeying JW leaders as if God himself were speaking?

Read my previous post to Arauna and tell me if, despite the facts I presented, such a fallible group of JW leaders, who have never gotten a single prediction right and have taught dozens of false doctrines, you still think their claim to speak for God holds up. If not, then they are not spirit-directed, any more than you or I am.

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JWS believe that the head of the congregation is Jesus, and that he knows who is who and what is going on, even though men may not know. So we trust that whatever corrections are needed, they will happen.

But that flies in the face of actual experience.

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        I doubt that.

    Why? I know a great deal of what has been going on behind the scenes.
    Read more   

You mean ex-JWs emailing Angus Stewart?

 

No clue who that is.
     

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    On 11/21/2019 at 9:14 AM, AlanF said:

    Theoretical exercises are all well and good, but the many court cases where the sordid details of the perpetrator's actions, along with the active covering up done by JW elders, mostly at the direction of the Service Department, prove that JW policy and practice leaves much to be desired, and is often outright criminal.

I am not talking about a theoretical exercise, I am talking about an actual case. I read the whole transcript (all several hundred pages of it).

 

One case? I've read about many. And I know about a lot of cases that never made it to court because of technicalities.

You ought to phone up Barbara Anderson.

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I can’t comment on cases unless I am able to read all the court transcripts of the case. So you telling me about “sordid details” and “cover ups” is of no real help to me. Although I am not denying that cover ups have happened.

Ok.
     

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    On 11/21/2019 at 9:14 AM, AlanF said:

    This was all so clearly exposed in the ARC proceedings.

Are you talking about victims BCG, and BCB? Because if you are, then I do not recall any attempts at covering up abuse.

 

I'm talking about the general failure of Watchtower policy to protect children and molestation victims. Also about internal Service and Legal Department policies that often direct elders to lie to pretty much everyone involved in a case, including police and the courts.

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But I do recall there being inappropriate handling of the issue, for example for the victim to have to face her abuser.  The ARC identified areas such as that, and others, where the policies of JWS could be improved, and then made recommendations. These recommendations were taken on board and are now implemented, and are part of the JW policy on Child Protection. I am sure you have read it. Furthermore as you know, the ARC was set up in recognition of CSA problems in various institutions, not just JWS.

The present policies are better than the old ones, but remain inadequate.
And of course, the fact that the Society fights against lawsuit bringers tooth and nail, rather than admitting past wrongdoing, proves that its officials are really not interested in doing right by victims.
     

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    On 11/21/2019 at 9:14 AM, AlanF said:

    he point is about APPOINTMENT by holy spirit. Your reading a book and trying to apply the author's instructions does not in any sense mean that the author has directed you. Following her written directions, and her actively directing you, are completely different things. It's the difference between having Julia Child's cookbook in your kitchen and having Julia Child herself supervising you. Capiche?

This sounds like a case of semantics to me.

 

That's my point: saying that reading the Bible and imperfectly attempting to apply it, while saying that in effect, holy spirit appoints elders, is semantically equivalent to saying that Julia Child in effect directs your cooking, when all you've done is try to follow the written directions. "Indirect guidance" is only a manner of speaking and is in no sense equivalent to direct guidance.

Quote

I could say that Julia Child did not direct me, but I allowed her instructions in the cook book to direct me.

If you told your friends that Julia Child directed you, but all you did was follow her book, they'd rightly judge you as nuts.

Quote

And if those instructions were detailed enough, then I probably turned out a good meal. However, if I started chopping the onion in quarters, instead of small pieces, as stated in the recipe, then Julia Child would not be there to personally correct me. So if my meal turned out less than perfect, then it was because I had not followed Julia’s instructions properly, regardless whether she was there in person or not.

But in no case did Julia Child direct you. Following written directions is not the same as being actively directed by the writer.

Quote

But really, this is what the Bible is. Christians try to follow it as best as they can. The idea of appointment by holy spirit is a scriptural idea and it is assumed that if one qualifies as per Timothy, then it can be said that one is working in harmony with God and his holy spirit in that appointment, therefore to put it another way: the appointment is by holy spirit.

By that standard, sincere Christians of every sort can claim spirit-direction. But as a JW you must reject that claim.

Quote

I guess you would prefer appointed in harmony with holy spirit, rather than appointed by it.

That would be speaking honestly.

Quote

But don’t think I don’t know the real reason why you are bringing all this up. Your point is that saying “appointed by”, somehow makes the rank and file imagine that this is something special, and under direct guidance of God.

Of course, because that's exactly what the Society's dishonesty does. I had several discussions about this with my elder stepdad (now deceased) over the years, and he steadfastly insisted that his own appointment was directly by holy spirit. Most elders and JWs believe the same thing. The Society's claims are all about maintaining control, since you don't disagree with God.

Quote

But we have already established that this cannot always be the case. (But also, that does not automatically mean that it is never the case).

As I showed above, it is never the case.

Quote

Regardless, Paul writes Christians should be obedient to those taking the lead.

By that standard, if I "took the lead", would anyone in his right mind obey me?

Quote

This does not mean we are going to obey indiscriminately.

But that is what the Society demands. Do you need to see quotes from WTS publications?

Quote

I guess because the apostle Paul assumed that he was talking to intelligent and reasonable people, he did not see the need to insert the proviso “unless they are asking you to do something bad” .

"Bad" is different from "stupid". But the Governing Body explicitly demands such blind obedience.

Quote

Peter understood, when he said “we must obey God as ruler rather than man”.

If he were alive today he would likely be disfellowshipped for apostasy if he disagreed with the GB.

Quote

 

Which brings me to your next point:
     
    On 11/21/2019 at 9:14 AM, AlanF said:

    The Governing Body, is God's anointed representative, speaks for God and must be obeyed as God would.

No, first and foremost God must be obeyed.

 

In principle, not in practice. In practice if someone decides that what God says is different from what JW leaders say, most JWs go with their leaders. That's the point of my posting about my conversation with GB member Albert Schroeder about Luke 21: he could not argue with the Bible, but he ended up declaring that the Bible does not apply to Jehovah's Witnesses if their teaching goes against the Bible.

Quote

So if the GB were to ask someone to do something that is not supported in scripture, or that goes against scripture, no JW should obey.

Yes, in principle. In practice they would surely be disfellowshipped.
     

Quote

 

    On 11/21/2019 at 9:14 AM, AlanF said:

    But we've already concluded that the GB is NOT appointed by God, by holy spirit. Rather, its members are appointed by imperfect men, who were in turn appointed by other imperfect men, all the way back to Rutherford. In no case can it be shown that holy spirit acted upon the ones doing the appointing, or that the appointments were done strictly according to scriptural requirements.

As I said further above, you might have concluded that, but not me.

 

But as I've shown, my conclusions are based on facts and sound reasoning.

Quote

Not only me, but most JWS see evidence of God's spirit not only in their lives, but in the way the organization operates, in spite of imperfections. Sorry to disappoint you.

All of that evidence is not real, it's purely imaginary. Example: some years ago my sister-in-law, a thoroughly deceived JW, decided to help make curtains for her KH. She laid out the patterns and went to a fabric store. There she found a roll of fabric of exactly the right size. She concluded that Jehovah had somehow made that roll be available. Which of course, even most JWs find ludicrous. All other such 'evidence of God's spirit' is of a similar nature.

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54 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

If John Butler was disfellowshipped from this forum, it was for, frightening the Elders that run this forum.

That's funny. I was very close at one time in calling the elders in his ex-congregation to alert them of a potential pedophile in the congregation because John Butler wouldn't do it. Then he kind of decided he would alert the police, which he said he did, so I let it go.

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John Butler was banned because he went too far in calling for illegal harm to be done against some public people. Not because of his stance on the child abuse matter. Once you cross the law you are definitely banned.

Billy the Kid aka Allen Smith..... I have tolerated on many occasions.. until soon thereafter he is so rude and abusive toward other members I have to ban him. He needs to find another sandbox to go play in. Not this one.

I'm not saying that others don't at times get abusive..... but my tolerance with Allen Smith is very thin... he "rubs me the wrong way" every time. 

-----------

 

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TrueTomHarley said:
    

Quote

 

    11 hours ago, AlanF said:

    And if you had any integrity you'd not have chopped off "1925" from my quote. You're now actually stooping to deliberate misquoting to make a point. Like Mommy like son.

I am not so devious as you suggest. I didn’t think it through. I merely highlighted some words of yours quickly to connect my thoughts with yours. To show that I am not in a conspiracy to suppress your words:

 

Well, many times you've deliberately misquoted or distorted my words, or claimed I said something or have views that have nothing to with reality. Why should this time be different?
If it was an honest mistake, then kudos for fessing up to it.
     

Quote

 

    20 hours ago, AlanF said:

    As we have heretofore stated, the great jubilee cycle is due to begin in 1925.

There. Happy?

 

That's better. Try being a competent poster in the future.

Quote

Going back 100 years to harangue about a failed anticipation does not interest me so that I should scheme to hide it.

Still missing the point. Even though I clearly explained it.

Quote

I have plainly stated that there were some closely succeeding dates back then that were like when you miss the nail with the hammer, and in frustration, swing several times more, again missing each time.

LOL! In every case the Watchtower leaders who led the charge claimed inspiration or nearly so with their predictions. And their followers believed them.

Obviously, after Rutherford's failed 1925 prediction, where he admitted making an ass of himself, he and his lieutenants did not learn their lesson. Fifty years later -- not close to 1925 -- old Freddie did the same thing with 1975. And the muck up when the Jan. 1, 1989 Watchtower said that the preaching work would be completed in the 20th century occurred because both the writer and the GB reviewers all agreed on the idea.

Your rationalizations are ludicrous, in view of the facts.

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      By Guest Nicole
      Quebec provincial police are investigating allegations of child sexual abuse by two members of a Jehovah’s Witnesses congregation in Mont-Laurier in the Laurentians, Radio-CanadaÂ’s investigative program Enquête has learned.
      Both men have been sanctioned through the churchÂ’s internal disciplinary process for dealing with allegations of child abuse, but congregation elders did not share their findings with civil authorities.
      One of the men being investigated, Michel Courtemanche, who has been expelled from the congregation, was acquitted of charges of sexual assault and indecent assault in 1996.
      However, the Sûreté du Québec has renewed its investigation of Courtemanche and has begun investigating another man, former congregation elder Georges Leclerc, based on new evidence from at least seven alleged victims.
      Leclerc has been stripped of his status as an elder, but he has not been arrested or charged, and he refused to speak with Enquête.
      Courtemanche has not been arrested or charged as a result of the new investigation and denies the allegations against him. In an interview with Enquête, he pointed to his 1996 acquittal.
      “My answer is there was a judgment on this based on very precise facts, and I was acquitted,” he said.
      At least 7 potential victims, police say
      Enquête spoke with Pénélope Herbert, the woman whose allegations of repeated sexual assaults starting when she was just 10 led to Courtemanche’s 1996 trial.  
      Carolle Poudrier, now in her mid-40s, also told Enquête of alleged sexual contact by Courtemanche, over a period of months when she was 11.
      In the case of Herbert, she said the assaults continued until she was 17 — even after her family moved from Mont-Laurier.
      “He would come to our house to say hello and would sleep over,” Herbert, now 42, told Enquête. “Those nights, he would come to my room. We’re talking total rape, those nights.”
      Carolle Poudrier told Enquête of alleged sexual contact by Michel Courtemanche, over a period of months when she was 11. (Jasmin Simard/Radio-Canada)
      Enquête has learned the SQ has interviewed more than 40 people, of whom seven have been identified as potential victims of either Courtemanche or Leclerc.
      Four of the seven, including Herbert and Poudrier, have now filed formal complaints with police. SQ spokesperson Martine Asselin told Enquête they’re now seeking other possible victims and witnesses.
      “We’re looking to identify other potential victims who perhaps feel they’re alone and aren’t ready to talk,” Asselin said.
      “They should know that investigators are ready to meet with them and witnesses.”
      Both men were friends
      According to Enquête, Leclerc and Courtemanche were friends around the time Herbert’s parents lodged an internal complaint with the congregation about the alleged assaults on their daughter.
      Leclerc was, as a congregation elder, a senior member of the congregation who is responsible for providing religious guidance and ruling on disciplinary matters.
      Enquête said Leclerc allegedly did not speak to Herbert to learn the details of her complaint, as required by Jehovah’s Witness protocols in such matters.
      Courtemanche was later reprimanded and allowed to remain in the congregation.
      Georges Leclerc and Michel Courtemanche were friends around the time Pénélope Herbert’s parents lodged an internal complaint with the congregation, according to Enquête. (Jasmin Simard/Radio-Canada)
      Disillusioned with how the JehovahÂ’s Witnesses had handled her complaint, Herbert took her allegations to police in 1995.
      Courtemanche remained a Jehovah’s Witness after his acquittal but was expelled in 2014, Enquête found, after two other women filed internal complaints alleging he had assaulted them as minors.
      Leclerc remains with the Mont-Laurier congregation, but Enquête says he was stripped of his elder duties after at least three women filed complaints internally with the Jehovah’s Witnesses, alleging he had assaulted them when they were minors.
      Police, youth protection not notified of allegations
      According to Enquête, the first time police investigated Herbert’s allegations against Courtemanche in the mid-1990s, they were not aware Carolle Poudrier’s parents had also alleged Courtemanche had assaulted their daughter.
      Poudrier’s parents were members of a congregation in Terrebonne, just north of Montreal, and had filed their complaint there — not with Courtemanche’s congregation in Mont-Laurier.
      Poudrier alleged that Courtemanche, who was working for her dad, would make her sit on his lap so he could caress and tickle her, which made her uneasy. A few months later, he kissed her twice.
      “He asked me if I’d ever kissed anyone, and he put his tongue in my mouth. I found that disgusting,” Poudrier told Enquête.
      After she told her parents and they complained, Poudrier was made to recount what happened to a congregational elder in the presence of her father.
      Carolle Poudrier told what happened to a congregational elder in the presence of her father. (Jasmin Simard/Radio-Canada)
      “I was really stressed talking about sexual matters with a man I didn’t know, in front of my father. It was embarrassing,” Poudrier said.
      She said the elder thanked her for telling him what had happened and said that “he was there to take care of it.”
      In a lawyer’s letter to Radio-Canada, the elder in question, John MacEwan, said he knew Poudrier’s family but denied meeting with them concerning allegations against Courtemanche.
      When asked by Enquête if the Terrebonne congregation had shared the complaint against Courtemanche with his Mont-Laurier congregation, MacEwan refused to answer.
      Neither police nor youth protection authorities were ever notified of the alleged assaults on Poudrier.
      The JehovahÂ’s Witnesses leadership, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, has given preference to internal judicial procedures and protocols for dealing with matters such as child abuse.
      Carolle PoudrierÂ’s father, left, had worked with Michel Courtemanche, right. (Jasmin Simard/Radio-Canada)
      “In some jurisdictions, individuals who learn of an allegation of child abuse may be obligated by law to report the allegation to the secular authorities,” an internal memo to elders from 2016 reads.
      “In all cases, the victim and her parents have the absolute right to report an allegation to the authorities.”
      When it comes to sharing information with outside authorities, however, the leadership has insisted on maintaining confidentiality, citing privacy and the ecclesiastical privilege conferred by confessions.
      Enquête found there are as many as 30 steps a Jehovah’s Witness must take before that person is allowed to testify in court or furnish civil authorities with church documents, when it comes to matters of child abuse.
      “When you study the process, you realize it’s really a process for avoiding, a system for protecting the reputation of the Jehovah’s Witnesses,”  said Marilou Lagacé, a former Witness interviewed by Enquête.
      New instructions regarding allegations of child sexual abuse
      A recent royal commission in Australia found the JehovahÂ’s Witness church there had recorded allegations of child sexual abuse against 1,006 members over a 60-year period. Not one allegation had been reported to authorities outside the church.
      With pressure mounting in the wake of that royal commission and other allegations of sexual abuse of children in its ranks, on Sept. 1, the Watchtower Society issued new instructions regarding allegations of child sexual abuse.
      Those instructions recognize child sexual abuse as a crime and assert that members should be “clearly informed that they have the right” to report an allegation of abuse to police.
      “The congregation’s handling of an accusation of child sexual abuse is not intended to replace the secular authority’s handling of the matter,” the Sept. 1 letter reads.
      “Therefore, the victim, her parents, or anyone else who reports such an allegation to the elders should be clearly informed that they have the right to report the matter to the secular authorities.
      Elders do not criticize anyone who chooses to make such a report.”

      http://www.news.club/quebec-police-probe-possible-cases-of-child-sexual-abuse-in-jehovahs-witnesses-congregation/
    • By Jack Ryan
      TRANSLATION HERE (Google Translate)
      The victim calls the society with its own legal system a 'paradise for pedophiles'.The way in which Jehovah's Witnesses deal with sexual abuse in-house rooms has traumatic consequences for victims. Criminals easily escape the abuse, say victims, members and ex-members whom Trouw spoke. This creates an unsafe situation for children.Jehovah's Witnesses find that their internal justice system is above the 'worldly authorities'. Male elders act as judges. They follow the guidelines of the International Headquarters in the United States, shown by internal documents held by Trouw.
      Misuse victim Marianne the Guardian: "Jehovah's Witnesses keep the perpetrators hand over the head. Abuse is solved by the first best farmer who is elder, who has no sense. "Another victim calls Jehovah's Witnesses a" paradise for pedophiles. "If misuse is discovered, it is difficult to convict internally. According to the Jehovah's Witnesses, two witnesses are required. They are almost never abused. For example, if it comes to condemnation, the perpetrator may no longer be out loud in prayer.Only if the perpetrator does not regret can he be put out of community. Other members are not informed of any danger because talking about a case without conviction is perceived as defamation or reproach. On the ground someone can be excluded.Insufficient protectionThe findings of Trouw are in line with a report published by an Australian research commission in November. The conclusion: Children are insufficiently protected from abuse and the organization is not adequately addressed with accusations.
      The Jehovah's Witnesses are a Christian society with around 30,000 followers in the Netherlands. About fifteen years ago, the organization in Trouw said that they only registered cases of abuse by officers. The spokesman had never heard of such abuse.However, three of the four victims who allegedly believed to be abused by an elder were declared to be. The Dutch headquarters of the Jehovah's Witnesses in Emmen reveal that they would now "nuance more" the earlier statement. The organization does not want to engage in individual abuse cases.She says working on the 'resilience' of children and families and discussing sexuality without 'veil of mystery'. And: 'Protecting our children is taken very seriously'.That response is indicative of the way the organization tries to stay out of place, says Frances Peters, ex-witness and coach for people from compelling religious group cultures. "They say, the children must be more resilient, while they should protect them properly."Perhaps more victimsThe abuse that victims talked to victims took place in the eighties and nineties. Victims and experts say the abuse is still taking place. There are virtually no indications that the policy of Jehovah's Witnesses has been adapted.However, the organization against this newspaper says "to constantly review its procedures in order to improve the way we deal with such issues". And: "When it comes to child abuse, Jehovah's Witnesses have a clear policy based on biblical principles."According to Peters, the organization emphasized in 2002 and 2003 during a training for elders that abuse is a crime that must be dealt with by the government. "This is allowed on paper to report to the police. But the change is nowhere communicated to the members. "For reports and reports for sexual abuse, no recent reports of (ex-) witnesses are known. The Sektesignal notification point does not want to name organizations, but lets know that "these types of alerts come across all kinds of groups."According to Peters, there are no reports of witnesses: "Victims often blame themselves for the abuse. If things are done internally, that means someone has dared to open his mouth. But the chance is that there are many more victims who never dared.
      "Read also:- The story of victim Marianne Voogd: "This is our secret. When you open your mouth, I'll do something to you. "- The story of an elder who wanted to help an abused girl: Elder is a detective, judge and psychologist-
      Who are Jehovah's Witnesses actually? Read all you need to know.
       
       
    • By Jack Ryan
      JW had multiple allegations of rape
      Once Noticias Honduras, May 26, 2017
      His victims are girls between 12 and 13 years of age. The authorities have not disclosed which congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses the accused belongs to.
      More than five reports of rape filed by minors between 12 and 13 years old had the prosecution against Roger Abraham Flores Diaz, 45, the Jehovah's Witnesses preacher arrested last night in San Pedro Sula, authorities said.
      Flores Díaz was arrested in Barrio el Centro by agents of the Technical Agency of Criminal Investigation (ATIC), where he had a business selling cell phones. According to the authorities, he deceived the young girls by offering them money.
       
    • By Jack Ryan
      A former member of the Jehovah Witness congregation will appear in court next week after he was charged with sexually assaulting four boys.
      The charges stem from ongoing investigations linked to the Royal Commission into institutional child sexual offences.
      Police allege between 1993 to 2013, the 44-year-old man sexually assaulted four boys aged between 14 and 16 at the time of the offences.
      READ MORE: http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/former-wa-jehovah-witness-charged-with-alleged-historic-child-abuse-offences-20170512-gw37yd.html
    • By Jack Ryan
      26 April 2017
      27 April 2017
      28 April 2017
      1 May 2017
      6 May 2017
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