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All Eight Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses members are now individually named on two New York Child Victims Act case documents


Jack Ryan

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43 minutes ago, AlanF said:

I heard several JWs in the 1980s talking about 2000. 

I heard several JWs in the 1980s talking about zebras. Coming from the Master of Rationality, I’d say that this bit of “evidence” is rather weak.

43 minutes ago, AlanF said:

And today we see Arauna vaguely warning that Real Soon Now world leaders will do all manner of vile deeds.

Another bit of proof!

43 minutes ago, AlanF said:

In online forums in the late 1990s, many JW apologists threatened: "You'll get yours when 2000 rolls around!"

It IS true that, as they were dropping the 1999 New Year’s Eve ball in Times Square, the brothers were dropping an identical one at Bethel: “Four...three....two....one....IT’S THE NEW SYSTEM!!!! ......Oh.....Still the same?.....nuts!”

What is wrong with you? There is 1975 and only 1975 in anyone’s lifetime. And, as stated, even that one is arguable.

You’re just steamed that there has not been counsel: “Remember, brothers, how Jesus said ‘Keep on the watch?’ He’s nuts. Fogedaboutit!”

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Yes, problem is lexical. And as consequence, of not knowing true meaning, translations are made on idea of people who making translation.

This speech is shocking! Who can listen to it?

It is on a topic having nothing to do with the theme of this thread! How could you?!

Put it up on another thread. Start one if there is not one already! Same with Alan with his dates. A completely different topic. Start a new thread!

How can you people be so insensitive to the wishes of @The Librarian (that old hen)? She has made it clear that she wants order. We must be considerate of her and not just think of our own selfish desires. Otherwise she will throw everything in one master thread where the focused energy will cause it to explode like a supernova, blowing us all to Kingdom Come!

(maybe that’s how The End comes about)

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When speaking with others of a different point of view, it is important to treat them with a modicum of respect. It is important not to taunt and ridicule and insult. Of course, if such is your only o

Good point Srecko. I don't think it's entirely fair to blame the GB for creating a "certain" environment inside congregations though. In fact, (we know everything passes through the GB's hands fo

@Arauna How do you actually know that the GB members  " never personally touched a child (actually too innocent  to comprehend how wicked people can be - too good for this world), " ?  There is i

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Srecko Sostar said:

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    2 hours ago, AlanF said:

    The problem is not translation, but original meaning.

Yes, problem is lexical. And as consequence, of not knowing true meaning, translations are made on idea of people who making translation.

 

To be more precise, interpretations of 'yohm' are such personal interpretations. The translation itself is not much open to discussion, as virtually all Bible translations use "day".

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WT Bible is another example how to increase the problem. WT Society made Versions of Bible translation. They haven't  qualified staff who is extremely proficient in Biblical languages. Perhaps few individuals who finished only two grade of Latin and Greek language in High School, or in best case four years in Classical Languages. But their Versions of NWT Bible, for sure, was made  under strong influence of Doctrines and Teachings that are Unique to JW.  

Quite so. The original NWT Committee was comprised mostly of gophers like Albert Schroeder who did busy-work like making cross references. A Greek name George Gangas helped a bit with the Greek translation, but he had no education, and his Greek was modern Greek, not 1st century Greek.

The only one who more or less knew what he was doing was Fred Franz, who had a year or two of Greek in college before he joined the Bible Students, but had no education at all in Hebrew. He was entirely self-taught in Hebrew. It seems that much of Franz's knowledge of Hebrew came from looking up words in Hebrew-English lexicons and looking at many Bible translations. He also elicited help from a scholarly Jew living in Brooklyn, and from at least one recognized Bible scholar (Goodspeed?) who produced his own partial Bible translation.

In 1994 I met one other actual WTS scholar who seemed competent, but of course he had nothing to do with the original New World Translation. He died about 20 years ago. He was a Romanian named John Albu, who immigrated to the U.S. around 1970, and quickly became a JW, and soon an "anointed one". He soon joined Bethel and worked on translation and chronology stuff. He told me that he was educated in Europe in Hebrew, Greek and other languages. Eventually serious health issues forced him out of Bethel, but he continued to work closely with the Writing Staff. He worked as a doorman for a hotel in Manhattan. It's fairly certain that Albu did much of the research that resulted in the infamous chapter 14 of the 1981 WTS book "Let Your Kingdom Come", written by GB member Lloyd Barry. He told me that part of the reason he became a JW was that the NWT was so fabulously accurate.

I suspect that Franz and Albu would strongly object to the new NWT. While it's far more readable in many areas, it violates Franz's dictum that the NWT should be literal to a fault, being more of a "dynamic translation" in the spirit of the New International Version. Of course, Freddie always skewed his translations in favor of pre-existing Watchtower doctrine, sometimes stretching Hebrew and Greek meanings to their limits, and occasionally past those limits.

My own opinion, for what it's worth, is that on the whole both versions of the NWT are translationally at least as accurate as the best other translations. In a handful of cases I think it's more accurate than most. They all have inaccuracies and various warts, but in different areas. Much of the criticism of the NWT comes from Christian scholars who are obligated by their religions to argue in favor of doctrines like the Trinity, and so often use really bad arguments to criticize the NWT. I think that Fred Franz was a brilliant but insane man who fell into C. T. Russell's cult at an early age and never recovered.

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47 minutes ago, AlanF said:

To be more precise, interpretations of 'yohm' are such personal interpretations.

Put in another thread. Start one if you have to. Your hostess, the Librarian has (repeatedly) requested it.

Is consideration for the wishes of the web owner too much to ask?

Do you pull off your muddy boots before entering someone’s living room?

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James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

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    6 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

    Hence we truly need a TRUE Anointed Class to be able to receive God's Holy Spirit to give us true 'Food at the proper time'

Or .... if we have more common sense than a potato, what was written in the Bible will be crystal clear the first time we read it.

 

Well -- sometimes.

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hint hint: That's why we have a conscience.

Indeed -- something that high-control-group leaders like the JW Governing Body always forget. They dictate their version of "a good conscience" to the group members and boot out all who disagree. Thus, members either adopt the leaders' conscience, or they shut up.

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2 hours ago, AlanF said:

The prediction for 2000 was made at various times from the 1970s through 2000

I don't remember anything being said about the year 2000. It must have been very obscure. All I remember is it worried computer programers a little, and got people's panties in a twist.

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1 hour ago, Anna said:

I don't remember anything being said about the year 2000. It must have been very obscure. All I remember is it worried computer programers a little, and got people's panties in a twist.

I think how wording in magazine is something as .... to the end of 20th century.

This including the year 2000 :))

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2 hours ago, AlanF said:

The only one who more or less knew what he was doing was Fred Franz, who had a year or two of Greek in college before he joined the Bible Students, but had no education at all in Hebrew.

 

2 hours ago, AlanF said:

My own opinion, for what it's worth, is that on the whole both versions of the NWT are translationally at least as accurate as the best other translations. In a handful of cases I think it's more accurate than most.

Viewing these two statements of yours, one after the other, it’s apparent you that must have done something so as not to burn your head out with cognitive dissonance. You haven’t said what, but it must be that you decided either

1. that translating the Bible is so easy that any orangutan can do it, or

2. it is perfectly possible for talented persons to accomplish the task without going In for the higher education that you insist is so essential.

If it is #2, you will find yourself in another beef with @James Thomas Rook Jr.. You should have heard him carry on about the impossibilities of translating without advanced education on another thread.

 

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Put in another thread. Start one if you have to. Your hostess, the Librarian has (repeatedly) requested it. Is consideration for the wishes of the web owner too much to ask?

@4Jah2me, you DOWNVOTE this repeated request from @The Librarian, the owner of this site?

Do you pay for your purchases at the store?

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4Jah2me said:

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Secondly. Mr Harley has no idea whatsoever, just how many JW 'leaders' are involved in CSA.“

BECAUSE THE GB ARE HIDING PAEDOPHILES IN THE JW ORG BY WITHHOLDING THE 20 PLUS YEARS OF DATABASE INFORMATION FROM THE AUTHORITIES.

Hope that helps him to understand it.

 

Facts never convince the willfully ignorant.

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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

f it is #2, you will find yourself in another beef with @James Thomas Rook Jr.. You should have heard him carry on about the impossibilities of translating without advanced education on another thread.

I am still of the opinion that when translating from ENGLISH, to another language, a person MUST be a fluent EXPERT at both languages, and have lived in areas where both are spoken extensively, and also have a DEEP knowledge of the history and culture of both places, AND have a potload of plain old common sense .... which is not all that common.

I suspect that this is true in all other language translations.

We have Bible translations in over a thousand languages (...or is it just some Bible literature?) ... but how good are those translations?

The Polish people fought the Nazi tanks on horses, with horse drawn artillery, and they acquitted themselves magnificently ... but it was no contest, and they lost miserably.

..... same thing.

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Anna said:

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    4 hours ago, AlanF said:

    The prediction for 2000 was made at various times from the 1970s through 2000

I don't remember anything being said about the year 2000. It must have been very obscure. All I remember is it worried computer programers a little, and got people's panties in a twist.

 

The Society made direct statements as well as more subtle suggestions. Take a gander:

<< How thrilling that must have been for Paul and Barnabas-sailing to their first foreign assignment! The apostle Paul was spearheading the Christian missionary activity. He was also laying a foundation for a work that would be completed in our century. >> January 1, 1989 Watchtower, p. 12

Note that "in our century" was changed to "in our day" in the bound volume and in the CDROM Library.

Note that when the following statements were made, the Society was teaching that "the generation of 1914" meant the group of people alive in 1914 who survived until "the end".

<< Shortly, within our twentieth century, the "battle in the day of Jehovah" will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom. >> -- "The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah"-How? - 1971

<< And if the wicked system of this world survived until the turn of the century, which is highly improbable in view of world trends and the fulfillment of Bible prophecy, there would still be survivors of the World War I generation. However, the fact that their number is dwindling is one more indication that “the conclusion of the system of things” is moving fast toward its end. >> -- October 15, 1980 Watchtower, p. 31

<< It has been thrilling to see the fulfillment of Jesus’ sign showing that the Kingdom was established in the heavens in that momentous year 1914. And Jesus has told us to rejoice at seeing the dark storm clouds of Armageddon gathering since that time. He has told us that the “generation” of 1914—the year that the sign began to be fulfilled—”will by no means pass away until all these things occur.” (Matthew 24:34) Some of that “generation” could survive until the end of the century. But there are many indications that “the end” is much closer than that! >> -- March 1, 1984 Watchtower, pp. 18-19

<< The Time for a Change Is Near!
Carole, from France, has a “marvelous hope” and foresees, for the near future, “something marvelous—not at all like the world we live in.” Samuel, a 15-year-old youth from the same country, also believes in a complete change: “For the year 2000, I visualize a world transformed into a beautiful paradise! But I don’t think that either the present world or its rulers will live to see that day. . . We are living in the last days of the system of things.” Ruth, a German girl of 16, also expresses her confidence in these changes: “I know I’m not smart enough to change the world and make things run right. Only Jehovah, our Creator, can and will do that soon.” >> November 8, 1986 Awake!, pp. 7-8

 

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What gets me is, as in the book 1984 ... the Society revises history, as stated in the examples given above,

That was Winston Smith's JOB ... to revise history.

THEN .... when called on their actions, stare blankly into the headlights and say "No, we didn't!"

It's a good thing I understand such things as normal to all people, or it would "stumble" me.

 

dt960320dhc0.gif

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TrueTomHarley said:

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    1 hour ago, AlanF said:

    I heard several JWs in the 1980s talking about 2000.

I heard several JWs in the 1980s talking about zebras. Coming from the Master of Rationality, I’d say that this bit of “evidence” is rather weak.

 

Again we witness Orwellian crimestop.

The point, Einstein, is that these JWs did not make this nonsense up for themselves, but read the predictions for 2000 in Watchtower publications. Do a little looking on the jwfacts website and you'll find some quotes. Or read some in my response to Anna above.

Quote

 

    1 hour ago, AlanF said:

    And today we see Arauna vaguely warning that Real Soon Now world leaders will do all manner of vile deeds.

Another bit of proof!

 

Yes indeed. That paragon of scholastic aptitude gets all of the Real Soon Now nonsense from the Watchtower Society.
     

Quote

 

    1 hour ago, AlanF said:

    In online forums in the late 1990s, many JW apologists threatened: "You'll get yours when 2000 rolls around!"

What is wrong with you? There is 1975 and only 1975 in anyone’s lifetime. And, as stated, even that one is arguable.

 

Are you really this stupid? 1941, 1975, 2000 and Real Soon Now are certainly within peoples' lifetimes. 1975 is NOT arguable, as the links I posted prove.

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You’re just steamed that there has not been counsel: “Remember, brothers, how Jesus said ‘Keep on the watch?’ He’s nuts. Fogedaboutit!”

Unfortunately, JW leaders' counsel on that has often been accompanied by predictions of specific years to watch out for: 1914, 1918, 1920, 1925, 1941, 1975, 2000.

We continue to witness Orwellian crimestop.
     

TrueTomHarley said:

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    59 minutes ago, AlanF said:

    To be more precise, interpretations of 'yohm' are such personal interpretations.

Put in another thread. Start one if you have to. Your hostess, the Librarian has (repeatedly) requested it.

 

I did not start this -- others did.

As the criticisms of fundamental JW beliefs pile up, JW apologists pull out all the stops to avoid discussion.

Here we see TTH sticking his fingers in his ears, shouting La-la-la-la-la! and doing his best to sidestep and deflect issues that show his cult leaders in a truly bad light.


TrueTomHarley said:

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    3 hours ago, AlanF said:

    The only one who more or less knew what he was doing was Fred Franz, who had a year or two of Greek in college before he joined the Bible Students, but had no education at all in Hebrew.
     
    3 hours ago, AlanF said:

    My own opinion, for what it's worth, is that on the whole both versions of the NWT are translationally at least as accurate as the best other translations. In a handful of cases I think it's more accurate than most.

Viewing these two statements of yours, one after the other, it’s apparent you that must have done something so as not to burn your head out with cognitive dissonance.

 

Nonsense. The fact is that I'm quite objective about these things, and as a result have strongly disagreed with some critics of the NWT. You're simply too stupid to understand that, as evidenced by your comments below:

Quote

 

You haven’t said what, but it must be that you decided either

1. that translating the Bible is so easy that any orangutan can do it, or

2. it is perfectly possible for talented persons to accomplish the task without going In for the higher education that you insist is so essential.

 

Wrong on both counts. A classic instance of the fallacy known as The False Dilemma.

Quote

If it is #2, you will find yourself in another beef with @James Thomas Rook Jr.. You should have heard him carry on about the impossibilities of translating without advanced education on another thread.

So what?

Franz was insane but brilliant. A sort of idiot savant of religion. Such people are capable of feats far beyond those of mortal men.

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