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Governing Body Member Albert Schroeder Denies the Bible Applies to Jehovah's Witnesses

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That makes a lot of sense  Alanf thanks for sharing.

I always found it funny, when I was a JW how some scriptures does not apply to the org and some do. 

I also find it funny for example, as long as I was a JW the GB always said they were the spokesman or channel of Jesus and Jah on earth they will give scriptures blah blah blah but at the Australian Royal Commission suddently they weren't the only channel or spokesman of Jesus and Jah on earth... 🤣🤣🤣

 

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13 minutes ago, JJJ-AUSTRALIA said:

That makes a lot of sense  Alanf thanks for sharing.

I always found it funny, when I was a JW how some scriptures does not apply to the org and some do. 

I also find it funny for example, as long as I was a JW the GB always said they were the spokesman or channel of Jesus and Jah on earth they will give scriptures blah blah blah but at the Australian Royal Commission suddently they weren't the only channel or spokesman of Jesus and Jah on earth... 🤣🤣🤣

 

Yes, the Society is more than capable of talking out of both sides of its mouth. Its leaders simply have no respect for the truth -- only for their own traditions.

The GB member at the ARC flat-out lied about the GB's claim of being a spokesman.

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2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Is that the best  you can do ? Walk on 

Sorry, I don't really respond to stupid people. You just happen to be one of them JB. I'll respond to AlanF since he, meaning JW believes he is crafty and intelligent when he isn't. They use the same AD1914 rubbish as talking points.

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But he never said anything about NOT being a part of that number while he was writing articles, sermons, books, etc. In fact, the Watchtower's own BIOGRAPHY of Russell said that he privately admitted to being the "faithful and wise servant." 

You are missing the "hope" part of your understanding, which isn't in line with who Russell really was. 

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1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

You are missing the "hope" part of your understanding, which isn't in line with who Russell really was.

You haven't yet addressed the main question which I repeated for you, so I'm guessing that you ARE already aware that Russell taught that those of the "high calling" were included in "The CHRIST."

I have no idea what it means to be "missing the 'hope' part of my understanding." Are you saying that Russell said things which were not in line with who Russell really was? Did he only hope to be the faithful and wise servant, when he claimed to be the faithful and wise servant? Did he only hope to be God's mouthpiece when he said he WAS God's mouthpiece?

If not, please explain. I don't want to twist your words.

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2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

You haven't yet addressed the main question which I repeated for you, so I'm guessing that you ARE already aware that Russell taught that those of the "high calling" were included in "The CHRIST."

I have no idea what it means to be "missing the 'hope' part of my understanding." Are you saying that Russell said things which were not in line with who Russell really was? Did he only hope to be the faithful and wise servant, when he claimed to be the faithful and wise servant? Did he only hope to be God's mouthpiece when he said he WAS God's mouthpiece?

If not, please explain. I don't want to twist your words.

I didn’t know you were asking a question and I thought you were giving a personal observation. I'm not disputing the body of Christ or the kingship? I was questioning where Russell saw himself as part of that kingship. You are giving an impression, Russell thought he had that "guarantee" when no one on earth does. Christ will choose who, not the "saints" or the GB for that matter. They hope their fine work will be accepted just like the rest of us that will stay here on earth.

OV313 HOW AND WHAT TO FIGHT "The Good Fight" By C. T. Russell

The whole world may be divided along these lines into two classes, the one guided and controlled by earthly affairs and interests, and the other by heavenly hopes and interests. The former are what the Scriptures term the "natural man," and include many of earth's noblemen, as well as the earthly, sensual, devilish. Those controlled by the heavenly hopes, called the "spirit-begotten," "new creatures," are but a small number, and include some.

 

The Lord's favor to Daniel in permitting him to have a high position in Babylonia and subsequently in the Medo-Persian empires is contrary to his dealings with Spiritual Israelites of the present time. He deals with us not according to the flesh but according to the spirit. Consequently the rewards we get for faithfulness to him are spiritual rewards, "much advantage everyway." The Lord expects that the heavenly hopes and prospects set before us of a participation in the heavenly Kingdom as joint-heirs with our Lord, the Messiah, will be esteemed by us as of greater value than the honors and dignity conferred upon the prophet Daniel in the past. And we, too, so esteem the matter. Let us continue to thus view things from God's standpoint, until by and by he shall say, Enough, come up higher.

 

Who then -- In the harvest. B163

Few would be found giving to the household of faith meat in due season at his presence. R718:4

Faithful and wise servant -- Faithful to the "Master" and to "his fellow-servants" and "the household." D613 God's grace will probably come through a human channel, through the helpfulness of the fellow-members of the body of Christ, whom the Lord will make use of in serving the meat to the household of faith. R2383:4 Ever since the Church has had an existence, God has raised up some from its midst as special servants of the body, some who had special teaching ability. R1206:4 God in his own time raises up suitable servants or expounders to dispense his meat in due season. A319 Servants who are anxious, not only about the amount of service, but also that it be in exact cooperation with God. R1797:1 Merely a steward, liable to be removed at any moment should he fail to fully and duly acknowledge the Master in every particular. D613 One channel dispensing the meat in due season, though other channels or fellow-servants will be used in bringing the food to the household. D613 A special messenger to the Church at this time. R6023:3* Some one servant (animate or inanimate) whom the Lord would specially use in the present time to dispense the present truth. R1994:3 Originally applied to Pastor Russell by one who became his bitter enemy. He avoided the discussion which followed, except for references in Volume 4 and when the passage occurred in the International Sunday School Lessons. R4482:1, 4473:3, 3811:2 Thousands of readers of Pastor Russell's writings believe that he filled the office of "that servant." His modesty precluded him from claiming this title. OV447:6*; R6011:2*, 4482:1, 2489:4* While this exhortation in

general seems to apply to one particular servant, we can see the same principle would apply to each servant in turn as he would receive either food or stewardship. R3356:5 Whether you like to call it a class or individual, whatever it be. Q355:5 Let each reach his own conclusions and act accordingly. R4483:3, 1946:2; Q644:4 The whole body of Christ, faithfully carrying out their consecration vows.

R291:6, 149:5*

 .  This is what you are missing. You are projecting with a guarantee something Russell didn’t consider himself to be aside from being a faithful servant alongside the brotherhood.

There were times when certain independent Bible students believed the “church” was the WS. Therefore, they all believed the members met that requirement of being saints.

 

Was "The gospel of the kingdom" ever preached in all the world during past ages? The Scriptures declare that the immortality of human souls and eternal torment is not the gospel, Galatians 3:8. But, now, today, the gospel is being carried to every nation on earth by the one, faithful and wise servant of the Lord, Luke 12:42. The coming tour of the world means something. Yes, dear friends, soon shall the end be. Lift up your heads and rejoice when ye see these things beginning to come to pass. Why? "Because your redemption draweth nigh."

 

Just like AlanF, you want to cherry pick. However, tell your pal, JW’s were constituted in 1931 therefore any material he submits before that, belongs to the “Freedom Bible Students” or the “Associated Bible Students”, not the original “International Bible Student Association”. Pastor Russell was part of.

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2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

I'm not disputing the body of Christ

Good, because I know we've had that discussion before. Russell and his associates thought of this as a very powerful and important doctrine that gets partially repeated about a hundred times. Also, partly because they had not moved very far from the Trinity doctrine yet, they put a lot of emphasis on the idea that Jesus was a God (their capitalization, not mine) and that this doctrine put them on the divine plane as Gods. The Watchtower spoke of the 144,000 as "God manifest in the flesh." Based on the way Russell understood the Scriptures he has used, this teaching actually makes some sense. But I know of no other religions groups who were teaching that not only represented the Christ, but who would go so far as to claim that Jesus alone was not the Christ, but that the Christ included his Bride members, the 144,000.

The Christ would therefore include Russell himself, while on earth in the flesh, as long as he remained faithful.

When the world sees you it sees a member of The Christ, not in glory, but in the flesh. R455

Now we appear like men, and as men all die, even as others; but in the resurrection we will rise in our true character as Gods—partakers of the Divine nature (R473)

Our high calling is so great, so much above the comprehension of men, that they think we are guilty of blasphemy when we speak of being "new creatures"—"partakers of the divine nature." When we claim, on the scriptural warrant, that we are begotten to a divine nature and that Jehovah is thus our father, it is claiming that we are divine beings—hence all such are Gods. . . . Thus there is a family of Gods, Jehovah being our father, and all his sons on the divine plane, being brethren and joint-heirs: Jesus being the chief or first-born. [R474]

The Prophet like unto Moses, the great Law-giver, the great King, the great Mediator, will be the foretold "Seed of Abraham," in whom all the families of the earth shall be blessed. . . consists of our Lord Jesus, as the Head, the chief, and all of his faithful elect Church as members . . . [R2859]

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

You are giving an impression, Russell thought he had that "guarantee" when no one on earth does.

I never mentioned or implied any kind of guarantee, because I never had that impression myself. So sorry if anyone got that impression. Russell taught that he and others like him were "perfect" and "justified" as long as they were faithful, but that no one had a guarantee. They all had to endure to the end. As you point out, in some quotes you provided, this was part of his "faithful and wise servant" doctrine: that although it was a single individual, that God would replace that individual if he proved unfaithful.

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

This is what you are missing. You are projecting with a guarantee something Russell didn’t consider himself to be aside from being a faithful servant alongside the brotherhood.

I think you are still missing something here. I am not concerned at all with the any kind of "guarantee." That's something you added to this conversation. But it does seem you are trying to imply that Russell didn't even consider himself to be "that faithful and wise servant."

We know that would be a false impression. Just because he didn't publicly claim the title, doesn't mean he didn't make it clear that he was that individual. When he explained that it must be one human individual (at a time) and not a class, he added the idea that people might think him immodest for pointing this out, but he couldn't go against the obvious meaning of the Scriptures. If he didn't think it was himself, then why would he have though modesty should be a factor. He published letters that referred to himself as the "faithful and wise servant" often just called "that Servant." He was introduced at conventions with the title, and accepted the title without trying to correct anyone. And then the Watchtower printed the fact that during his life he had "privately admitted" to being that faithful and wise servant. The Watchtower admits that THOUSANDS of persons got this impression.

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Just like AlanF, you want to cherry pick. However, tell your pal, JW’s were constituted in 1931 therefore any material he submits before that, belongs to the “Freedom Bible Students” or the “Associated Bible Students”, not the original “International Bible Student Association”. Pastor Russell was part of.

This information comes straight out of the Watch Tower magazine and publications. Straight from Russell's pen. And straight out of the Biography of Charles Taze Russell published by the Watch Tower Society under Rutherford. It also comes straight out of the speech that Rutherford gave at Russell's funeral. It would be very strange to claim that anything Russell or the Watchtower said before 1931 belongs to "Freedom Bible Students" or "Associated Bible Students." All JWs who have read the "Proclaimers" book are not going to be fooled by such a claim.

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4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The Christ would therefore include Russell himself, while on earth in the flesh, as long as he remained faithful.

Once again, perhaps to some independent BS churches. The mistake that is continually being made is Russell controlled entire Bible Student association.

He controlled the “tabernacle”. If Henry Grew didn’t believe in the “trinity” then Russell wouldn’t have believed in the Trinity. The Q&A he gave, mentions, even though he didn’t believe in the trinity and was unscriptural, why baptize people in the name of the father the son and the Holy Spirit. He gave his reason. A reason in accordance of not believing in the Trinity.

Henry Grew (1781-1862)

He not only preached against slavery, but from the Bible alone, Henry Grew determined that the doctrines of the immortal soul, hell-fire, and trinity were not Scriptural. He wrote several books against the doctrines, one of which was picked up by George Storrs who was later convinced of Grew's views regarding the state of the dead.

LONDON, ENGLAND, April 5, 1882. Editor Zion's Watch Tower.

I have a brother, a D.D. in the Methodist Church, and have been always told I was called to preach the blessed glad tidings, but I never have felt satisfied with orthodoxy, although I have been a member for twenty-five years. I threw out the doctrine of natural immortality five years ago, the Trinity three years ago, and with the Em. Diaglott and Bible, with other helps, have been feeling after the truth. I left the Methodist Church three years ago, and though often asked to join that and others, never felt willing, the Saul's armor of the creeds did not fit, and it seemed to me I could not fight the good fight in them. I desire to fight the fight of Faith, and lay hold of everlasting life. I have held up the thoughts given in your works of "Tabernacle" and "Food" to some of Spurgeon's people, and they were unable to gainsay me.

Russell did not have the same idea as the POPE did. The papacy was still promoting the Pope to be equal to Christ or the reincarnation of Christ. There’s about 392 passages to consider.

Again the impression, Russell is claiming to be “the Christ” when actually he was simply stating the obvious.

Genesis 21:10

Wherefore -- In order to show that the Law covenant was not to have any rule over the spiritual sons of God. R1728:5

Cast out -- The Law covenant was cast aside when Jesus became heir of the original promise. R4319:3

And her son -- Ishmael, type of the nation of Israel. R4319:2 Tyrannical, domineering, incorrigible; at this time 13 years of age. R3952:6

Shall not be heir -- The mother's nature, rights, privileges and liberties attach to the child. E105

The nation of Israel could not inherit the promised blessings because the Law brought nothing to perfection. R4319:2

With my son -- Isaac, who represented The Christ, Head and Body. R4319:2, R4320:1

 

 Russell was placing himself as a REPRESENTATIVE, the role of a Pastor for the Christ, which the saints are also part of that body, with Christ as the head of the congregation. Within the BSA archives, there are 500 documents and almost 6200 passages

And, finally, the CHRISTIAN GLOBE (May 5, 1910) of London, states, "Since the days of Henry Ward Beecher and Dr. Talmage, no preacher has occupied so prominent a position in the United States as Pastor Russell of Brooklyn Tabernacle holds today." The full impact of Pastor Russell’s ministry can only be understood against the backdrop of church history.

 

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25 minutes ago, Anna said:

I am wondering whether you posed the same question, as was put to Schroeder, in a letter to the society, and if yes, what was their answer?

No. I have sent in a couple questions about parousia/synteleia and a question about other interpretations of Matthew 24, but never about Luke's version.

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On 11/22/2019 at 12:48 AM, Anna said:

@JW InsiderI am wondering whether you posed the same question, as was put to Schroeder, in a letter to the society, and if yes, what was their answer?

I guarantee that one who poses that question to the Society will not get an answer. Most likely they'll sic the local elders on him.

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