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Arauna

Creationism

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Arauna -
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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

I'm very disappointed when the WTS writers stoop to misquoting the evolutionary scientists

Do they? It is in the eye of the beholder. Must one really point out when quoting a scientist that he believes his own theory.

I gave an example with Darwin’s quote about the eye:

Darwin wrote:

“To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.”....

Q: If you quote this line, do you really have to add:  “of course, this is not to suggest that Darwin does not believe in his own theory of evolution by natural selection”?

I would never have thought so. I mean, what do you expect his next words to be? “Thus we can see that my entire theory is a load of horse manure. But I'm in this to win the praise of my peers, who for some reason, eat this stuff up. That, and maybe there's a buck to be made. So I'm putting lipstick on this pig. I'm sticking to my guns, even though you know, and I know, that it's all nonsense.”??

No! He's not going to say that! He's going to say something like: “Still, many now-established truths seemed equally absurd when first proposed. Evidence is scanty with relationship to the eye's development....no one's saying otherwise..... but we can expect future researchers to uncover corroborating material.”

That's my prediction (without peeking). In fact, he says almost exactly that:

“When it was first said that the sun stood still and the world turned round, the common sense of mankind declared the doctrine false; but the old saying of Vox populi, vox Dei ["the voice of the people = the voice of God "], as every philosopher knows, cannot be trusted in science. Reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist, each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certain the case; if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case; and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, should not be considered as subversive of the theory.”

Alright, then. Pretty much what I predicted he would say. Any donkey ought to realize Darwin's not throwing in the towel on his own theory by admitting evolution of the eye sounds ridiculous. If you use his quote to suggest he considers himself a charlatan, that's dishonest. But if you use his quote to show he acknowledges some pretty high hurdles exist in proving his theory.....well, what's wrong with that?

.........The above is from the post: 

Darwin wrote:

“To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.”....

Q: If you quote this line, do you really have to add:  “of course, this is not to suggest that Darwin does not believe in his own theory of evolution by natural selection”?

I would never have thought so. I mean, what do you expect his next words to be? “Thus we can see that my entire theory is a load of horse manure. But I'm in this to win the praise of my peers, who for some reason, eat this stuff up. That, and maybe there's a buck to be made. So I'm putting lipstick on this pig. I'm sticking to my guns, even though you know, and I know, that it's all nonsense.”??

No! He's not going to say that! He's going to say something like: “Still, many now-established truths seemed equally absurd when first proposed. Evidence is scanty with relationship to the eye's development....no one's saying otherwise..... but we can expect future researchers to uncover corroborating material.”

That's my prediction (without peeking). In fact, he says almost exactly that:

“When it was first said that the sun stood still and the world turned round, the common sense of mankind declared the doctrine false; but the old saying of Vox populi, vox Dei ["the voice of the people = the voice of God "], as every philosopher knows, cannot be trusted in science. Reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist, each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certain the case; if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case; and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, should not be considered as subversive of the theory.”

Alright, then. Pretty much what I predicted he would say. Any donkey ought to realize Darwin's not throwing in the towel on his own theory by admitting evolution of the eye sounds ridiculous. If you use his quote to suggest he considers himself a charlatan, that's dishonest. But if you use his quote to show he acknowledges some pretty high hurdles exist in proving his theory.....well, what's wrong with that?

......The above is from the 2011 post: https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2011/01/darwins-eye.html

which goes on to consider numerous examples from the 2 most recent brochures on creation v evolution. Numerous footnotes appear to point out that this or that scientist obviously believes in his own theory.

I think that’s sufficiently honest.

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Thanks Tom, we are obviously dealing with secularized JWs who are sitting on the fence and maybe do not even really believe the bible when it says jehovah created everything with his dynamic energy..  For them, those descriptions of creation in psalms and job can be thrown into the dustbin. 

They have not really taken the time to see how irreduceably " connected " all creation is.  I have mentioned some interesting examples before.  The simplest is the eye and the brain..... without the eye the brain cannot interpret .... so which one came first? Both body parts, as they  were supposedly developing over millions of years ....... the one body part, the eye, understood that in "future" it will need a brain and without design developed a brain by pure chances of correct natural selection (hitting the jackpot of benevolent mutation billions of times) to have a brain to perfectly fulfill the purpose of the eye?  So natural selection "knows " what will be needed in future...... wow ! Without a brain it can think! 

These people are so in awe of  evolution scholars that they cannot think for themselves..... but use derogatory names on us. ..... a perfect example how university education can erode the ability to think for oneself.  Its indoctrination  of evolution - is like a religion....... and permeates everything and crowds out the really good solid logic thinking. 

I did not just trust my family members but went out to discover the truth about it for myself.  Family members did help me to develop a curiosity to understand.  When thinking is faulty one must be adjusted. This is why I do like to listen to debates to hear both sides.  I still have to be disappointed in the bible.

 

 

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3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

My mother believes that Satan, who keeps transforming himself into an angel of light, was given powers/permission to hide fossils in whatever places he wished to cause

We all know that some of the elderly can justify their thinking for themselves..... Although elderly myself I search for realities. 

 

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

in the feathers on certain non-flying dinosaurs as feathery-looking ferns and/or other leaves and plants

I went to the London natural museum several times to look at fossils of dinosaurs.  The bone structure of most dinosaurs fall into two categories, those who resemble reptiles and those who have hollow bones and resemble birds..... and had bright feathers.  Today we have many birds who do not go into water and do not fly.  These large bird-like creatures  must have lived near water to cool down as large animals will not survive without large bodies of water.  Elephants and rhino need mud or water - even today.

Many of the mammals looked like the animals we have today such as rhino....... but just much larger than today.  This is my own deduction on this matter: that the change in the atmosphere and earth after the flood was so great that Jehovah allowed those creatures, who would not survive afterward, to die out.  Since many animals adapt to their environment (macro evolution - where they do not change specie but just appearance for adaption) they became smaller and changed to suit the environment and different food they ate.... this would affect the animal such as Darwins finches that had adaption in the beak and back again without changing DNA.

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Although my own son (the math/physicist)

Tell him to speak to a nano- biotechnologists and the structure of the building blocks of the cell. 

A physicist cannot explain where the dynamic energy for the entire universe came from..... to bring all this matter into being in orderly fashion too.  Mutation and the second law of thermodynamics is now used by evolutionists in feeble way to try to explain evolution but we all know that when this occurs it 'breaks down' the existing order and does not 'build' order and structure.

If Jehovah removed his dynamic energy from the universe - I have a nasty suspicion that all would cease to exist.

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

s that HONEST scientists are forced to ace

Not true - they believe the propaganda and the hype and want to remain part of the system wherein you cannot go against the accepted narrative.  Look what happened to the professor who wrote the first paper which proved that there are proteins in dinosaur bones. The top evolutionists wanted him banned. He lost his job.  it was settled out of court because people did not want this to get out.  Since then there have been more than ten papers with different proteins in dinosaur bones.

 

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

best the Society can do is to look for inconsistencies and disagreement

No - there are truly many inconsistencies but one has to look out for them because it is what they are NOT telling you which is important!

 

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

wanted mankind to develop technologically, and as indicated by the Tower of Babel, perhaps controlled the pace of that progress until today or some time in the near future.

All I can say is that Jehovah did not want this development under wicked humans because they will use it in a selfish and oppressive way.  But he held it back in time of Babel until the time of the end because the big showdown is on its way.  Perfect timing by Jehovah to draw out satan and those who think like him.  Dr Evil is taking over the technology - and we will soon see this emerging much more.  Humans were made to live in harmony with Jehovah and his wishes - not our own selfish desires for power and influence over others.  Mankind is truly wicked - we need Jehovah to flourish!

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Perhaps it was so that man would someday harness these powers and create a safe source of energy?

Yes it is still expensive to create hydrogen for cars or other machines.... but I myself would just like to live in a society where there is harmony, peace and rest. ... and interact with animals and people and tend to the earth!    Trees talk to each other chemically and they even feed their babies....young trees.   I would like to learn more about this!

I have gotten rid of all earthly ambitions and egocentric desires..... and guess what ..... I am happy! 

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Even animals that are violent with one another can still be trained to be peaceful in their interaction with humans.

Many examples in Africa! 

 

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

When did certain plants and elements become poisonous to us? Only after Adam's sin?

We can eat some mushrooms today but many kinds kill you quickly as the liver will shut down.  These complex proteins are now deadly to us.... but maybe before they were not.  We can eat complex carbohydrates but not complex proteins.  I do think the earth changed after the curse and also after the flood. 

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59 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Thanks Tom, we are obviously dealing with secularized JWs who are sitting on the fence and maybe do not even really believe the bible when it says jehovah created everything with his dynamic energy.

If you are referring to me here, then you should know that I am not disappointed in Jehovah, nor in Creation. I am only disappointed that our explanations are not able to keep up with the evidence. I can't think of another way to put it, but this is an area where we must currently reject evidence, some of which I have gone to see for myself, hoping the evidence was more ambiguous. There are many ways to resolve the existence of God and even MOST of the evidence. But we are clearly oversimplifying the process of creation if those unresolved pieces of evidence are real. 

And I have no problem with imagining that Jehovah created many thousands of species that we have not yet seen, and that creation was a much a grander and more wonderful process than we could imagine. I still think there is a good explanation out there somewhere. I am disappointed, not in the Bible, but in the fact that some WTS writers, especially in the past, had misused the writings of evolutionists instead of dealing with the evidence itself. I wasn't referring to the case that TTH mentioned. But I didn't think this point was generally in question.

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5 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

But we are clearly oversimplifying the process of creation if those unresolved p

Agreed - especially the evolutionists are making the creation into a thing that an unthinking process can accomplish!

6 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

There are many ways to resolve the existence of God

Yes, an analysis of the logic, coherency, consistency and continuity of the main theme in the bible and compared to what is going on in the academic sector and the world - one can only come to one conclusion:- we need a government that is outside this universe and one which is based on much higher principles and justice than we see mankind capable of. We are truly wicked and our history proves that.  We DO have a nasty flaw as the bible says.

 

11 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I am disappointed, not in the Bible, but in the fact that some WTS writers, especially in the past,

The general public and many people are not really interested in the nitty gritty little facts - they want a quick read... something which tells them what to think. Also,  there has been an explosion of new discoveries which now are being suppressed.  Every now and then I get something interesting in  my inbox which triggers my thoughts.

Many young people are too busy raising families and struggling with a career and to keep a job in these critical times.... there is little time for research and to attend and prepare for  meetings and field service. 

If I sounded harsh - I did not mean to...... but I  do say what I think.  I think the secular humanist ideologies has softened most American's brains.  It is everywhere and leading many astray..... even Jehovah's people. We must all be vigilant. 

I believe that our fight is against a very immoral world which is getting worse and worse as we speak.  I feel for the young people who are raising children in schools where they are teaching these corrupt sexual practices and other teachings as if it is the truth. Many children cannot opt out of saying the Shahada because Islam is promoted as a religion of peace-  another lie openly promoted by satan as truth. 

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50 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

wasn't referring to the case that TTH mentioned. But I didn't think this point was generally in question.

Somewhere in my writings I have alluded to the embarrassment one will feel upon visiting the Ithaca Earth Museum with Tom Pearlsandswine and trying to avoid the stares of others as he loudly mutters about the “wiles of Satan”

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2 hours ago, Arauna said:

that the change in the atmosphere and earth after the flood was so great that Jehovah allowed those creatures, who would not survive afterward, to die out.

This would mean that you think the dinosaurs died out about 4,400 years ago?

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Also,  there has been an explosion of new discoveries which now are being suppressed.

I heard you mention a couple of these. The ones I looked up didn't pan out. The claims about them were not very scientific. And obviously this is where I would hope that new answers will show up, and hopefully this is where WTS writers will be especially helpful. While I was at Bethel there was no one who knew much of anything about this type of science. If there was, he or she didn't speak up when the Evolution book was ready for an update.

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For Big Old Woman Arauna:

For the most part from here on in, I'm going to turn Arauna's dishonest "debate tactics" back on her: ignore some arguments, falsely claim that responses were never given, and so forth.

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All these little side issues keep you focussed on them so you do not ask the BIG questions..  Where did all the energy for this vast universe come from in the first place.  What was there before the singularity?

Already answered. Now you answer similar ones.

Where did God come from? Who created God? Where did God get all his "dynamic energy" from? How long has God existed?

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They keep you busy with hypothesis of 23 universes.... lol....

You just pulled that out of your ass. No one has such a "hypothesis".

I think what you've done is confuse the 11 dimensions proposed by one of the string hypotheses with some of the multiverse hypotheses. But your senile old brain isn't firing on all cylinders.

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I am glad I have a real smart brother who can do math and a researcher in carbon chemistry..... so I have access to knowledge that gives real answers.

But you're too cowardly to let him evaluate answers such as I've given you about the decay of uranium-238 -- which I've given you two times now, and you've ignored each time.

Wow, not only dishonest to a fault, but cowardly and senile!

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True evolutionists acknowledge that they do not have the answers.....

To some things, sure. To things like "what does the fossil record show?" they have plenty of answers. You just don't like them because they destroy your world view.

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Why? Because there is too many things one needs to get explanations for which  accidental order and intricacy cannot  explain.

Like, Who created God?

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And the records are too scanty to support it..... even if you try your hardest you know you are lying to yourself.  Honest evolutionists acknowledge there is not enough evidence - usually after they have retired......

LOL! Yet another creationist talking point.
     

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    On 12/2/2019 at 5:49 AM, AlanF said:

    times now: the "Cambrian explosion" lasted 20 million to 140 million years,

Not true - 10 million ..... the newest info.

 

That's just one figure. And of course, you cannot name your source. And as I've carefully explained several times, the number is entirely subjective because it depends on exactly how one defines "explosion". You just don't learn.
Nevertheless, even 10 million years is a long time for life to proliferate.
     

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    On 12/2/2019 at 5:49 AM, AlanF said:

    plenty of such things. I've given you links to descriptions of them. You simply refuse to learn anything.

If there were plenty..... I would be convinced by now.  

 

LOL! Yet another instance of Orwellian crimestop.
     

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    On 12/2/2019 at 5:49 AM, AlanF said:

    again, read a good book on paleontology

 

    
We note the refusal to self-educate.

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Explain the 13 proteins found in the bones..... which points to a younger earth..... This has not been explained in an acceptable way

I already did. You've again ignored what I've said because your Orwellian crimestop kicked in.

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1 hour ago, Arauna said:

I feel for the young people who are raising children in schools where they are teaching these corrupt sexual practices and other teachings as if it is the truth

You are right that there has been a movement to "normalize" all this supposed sexual fluidity and new definitions. These supposedly progressive "culture warriors" are out there trying to get anything and everything made acceptable. It's a real mess. And it is also working as a trap for stupid Americans (apologies to stupid Americans) who think that this is some wonderful bandwagon to jump on.

Even in many colleges and universities, so-called places for progress and freedom, many of these "culture warriors" have tried to suppress speech, etc.

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45 minutes ago, AlanF said:

even 10 million years is a long time for life to proliferate.

That indicates that you have not looked at the math to see how many minute changes are necessary to build only one cell - and this does not even include the whole entity with its many organs etc.

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