A Difficult Doctrine. With an easy explanation.

[Anna]

7 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

(on the TDS thread)

What thread is that? ...oh I see, the "Trump Derangement Syndrome", lol

[JW Insider]

3 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The unrighteous judge that will not grant justice until the widow nags him half to death and that judge is used to illustrate the Father.

If that kind of comparison were intended to create a representative analogy, then the Devil represents "glorious" congregation elders in Jude, where, according to one interpretation, we shouldn't speak abusively of "glorious" elders in the congregation just as Jesus/Michael wouldn't speak abusively of "glorious" Satan when arguing over Moses' body. 😎 (Note: I still don't believe this was the intent of the comparison at all.)

[Witness]

1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

You finally posted something substantive. Good for you. Yes those baptized should consider themselves as ambassadors to Christ. Therefore, the GB are also considered ambassadors with a responsibility of a Shepherd

No matter what identity you may go with at the moment Allen, you are blind not only to the truth of God's word, but also to many of the WT's teachings.  You truly fit the identity of "rogue" JW.  Just as you choose and mix many different avatars, believing you will deceive those here that you are "new", you pick and choose what you like from WT's teachings and mix with your own interpretations of it as well as truth in scripture.  

Accordingly, you condemn almost all JW "brothers and sisters" in this forum, along with exJWs.  Your answers support confusion and deception.   That is the only coincidence I see that you share with the Watchtower.  

 

[JW Insider]

5 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Since Russell didn't care for the Pyramid scheme since he already had a good handle on chronology, the pyramid scheme simply endorsed Russell's established chronology.

Russell obviously cared for it deeply enough to write many articles and chapters about it. He visited Egypt to see it in 1892 and 1910. He NEVER rejected it, but kept referring to it from his very first books, especially Volume 3, right up until the year he died.

In fact, in the year he died he updated Volume 3 with the following dated ONE MONTH before his death:

"The Great Pyramid of Egypt discussed in this Volume has not lost any of its interest to the author. . . . We . . . still believe that the structure of this Pyramid . .. was designed of the Lord and intended to be a Pyramid and a witness in the midst and on the border of Egypt (Isaiah 19:19.) . . . It's wonderful corroboration of the Divine Plan of the Ages is astonishing to everybody who really grasps it."

And of course, it turned out to be a lie that it had ever endorsed even ONE date in Russell's "established" chronology -- which has now been "established" to be false anyway, of course.

When you say Russell didn't care for the Pyramid scheme you seem to ignore some of the things that Russell said about it. Russell said that Christians don't build their faith around it of course, but that it's purpose was to make believers out of non-Christians by leading them to the truth of God's plan of the ages through a "rational" means. Therefore Russell could say things like the following in several different places (references available upon request):

"It has well been called 'A Miracle in Stone,' and it commends itself to us a work of God and not planned by men, for it seems in every respect to be in perfect accord with God's plan as we are finding it written in His Word; and this it is, that causes our respect for it."

"The Pyramid corroborates scripture ... "

"The ancient structure being thus repeatedly referred to in the Scriptures, we cannot doubt that, if questioned, this 'Witness' of the Lord in the land of Egypt will bear such testimony as will honor Jehovah, and fully correspond with his written Word."

"[God] placed the Great Pyramid 'in the midst and in the border of Egypt,' for a sign . . ."

"So striking and clear are its teachings that some of the foremost astronomers of the world have unhesitatingly pronounced it to be of Divine origin."

It doesn't pay to try to rewrite, twist and spin historical facts, because Russell already documented his thinking in many different places.

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, César Chávez said:

If you look further, you will find most of the articles you post don't convey the hole truth.

That's false. I did look further, several times, and found that all the articles I posted conveyed exactly the truth of what Russell said. If you are saying he was being dishonest when he said these things, that is a different matter that I cannot speak to. I personally believe Russell was sincere on this issue. Rutherford was also a very strong believer in the Pyramid doctrines, according to his own words. (Until about 1927/1928.)

4 hours ago, César Chávez said:

I hope you're not getting paid for a campaign of misinformation.

LOL! Then someone would surely be wasting money if they paid for misinformation, but ended up getting only real and truthful information.

4 hours ago, César Chávez said:

I hope you are an honest researcher in order to get to the truth

Thank you very much.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

A well grounded researcher will not accept the finding of an ex-witness Carl Olof Jonnson.

No one needs to read a word of what Carl Olof Jonsson wrote. For the most part all he did was corroborate what the majority of the most well-grounded researchers already had said well before he agreed with it. If there was any added value in what Jonsson wrote, it was that he showed how neo-Babylonian archaeology supports the Bible record.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

22 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The old method of handling this was to use the expression "present truth." Many adventists including Seventh Day still use the expression. It's based on a mistranslation of 2 Peter 1:12 where the KJV said:

Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

The tendency among 19th century Adventists was to see a "chronology" element or "time" element in the English expression that did not exist in the original Greek. Therefore, the idea was that: even when in the midst of learning or teaching falsehood, it was still "present truth" at the time, and what is now "present truth" could turn out to be false in the future, but it will always have been "present truth" because it's always the best we had at the time.

From the Greek, this is better translated as "the truth that is present in you" (American Standard and NWT). 

A similar rush to see a time element in the English translation was done by Barbour and Russell and others who had been associated with Adventists. Here's an example from Leviticus:

(Leviticus 26:28) 28 I will intensify my opposition to you, and I myself will have to chastise you seven times for your sins.

This was originally the primary source for Russell's 7 times = 2,520 years, and the 7 times of Nebuchadnezzar's dream about his own insanity was only a secondary source. But we have since learned that Leviticus here didn't refer to chronological "times" but the sense was "7 times as much" as in "I will hit you twice as hard, or three times as hard, or seven times as hard." This was already in the context, but chronologists and numerologists rarely notice the context until they have already formed a time related doctrine.

(Leviticus 26:18-21) . . .“‘If even this does not make you listen to me, I will have to chastise you seven times as much for your sins. . . . 21 “‘But if you keep walking in opposition to me and refuse to listen to me, I will then have to strike you seven times as much, according to your sins.

Now that we have noticed this, we have been stuck with using Nebuchadnezzar as if his wicked Gentile kingdom somehow represented Christ's Messianic non-Gentile kingdom. (Another contradiction between 1914 and the Bible.)

We still tend to make a "chronology word" out of things having to do with time when we translate the Greek word for time as "appointed time" instead of what might better be translated as "opportune time."

Note that it's the exact same word "time" in these two verses:

(Ephesians 5:16) 16 buying out the opportune time for yourselves, because the days are wicked.

(Luke 21:24) . . .and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.

Neither the word opportune nor appointed is found in the Greek, only the word time. But the more typical meaning is "opportunity" as in:

• Will you find the opportunity to do this?
• Will you find the time to do this?

Not:

• Will you find the appointed day and hour to do this?

We have added a more specific chronological sense that usually isn't necessary in the Greek.
 

Quote "Neither the word opportune nor appointed is found in the Greek, only the word time. But the more typical meaning is "opportunity" as in: " 

Isn't this then ADDING to the scriptures ?  Just using the word time would surely have done the job.

And to use the phrase 'appointed times' is surely wrong as it suggests a pre-planned time / a set time. 

Isn't it a sin to add to the scriptures ?  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Separate comment.  Quote @JW Insider

Sounds like you disagree with what Brother Splane said when he admitted that over 100 teachings that had turned Bible parables and Bible historical narratives into specific prophecies were examples of going beyond the things written.

Quote "But if you think about it, almost every single past error where the Watchtower has made an interpretation that was later changed was also a matter of going beyond the things written. Whenever there was a changed teaching where the Watchtower had said "this is what it means" instead of "this is what it might mean" was a matter of going beyond the things written."

WOW ! This should be put up in lights outside every Kingdom Hall, for all Witnesses and members of the public to read. 

And that in itself is good enough reason for not being a JW, because the GB and it's Writing Dept GO BEYOND THE THINGS WRITTEN, and they admit to not being inspired.  

But, they say that one has to be a baptised JW to gain salvation. 

That is so funny when you consider it all. 

 

[Anna]

On 12/10/2019 at 10:39 AM, JW Insider said:

But the fact that 1 Cor 15 is quoted above as the context to the teaching about Christ's rule, and that Paul goes on in verse 25 to indicate that "sit at my right hand" is the equivalent of "rule as king" tells me that 1914 might have been left off on purpose.

I have not noticed 1914 diminishing in importance. It gets aired anytime there is a reference to the times of the end, and its closeness (in publications, convention talks and Broadcasting). But you are right, there seems to be a certain hesitancy in directly including 1914 as being part of our "core doctrines". At least in the above mentioned days text. There is also no reference to it in the questions for baptism. Under Christian beliefs, Question 19 asks: How do you know that Kingdom blessings will soon be here? The answers are references to Matthew 24 and 2 Timothy (last days critical times..). IF 1914 was to be mentioned, what scripture references would be used? We can all see it would get very complicated, hence as you rightly called it, it is a difficult doctrine. But the irony is, it is a very fundamental doctrine, so it should be explained (with all the dozens of scriptures) and be a part of the questions for baptism, strictly speaking. So I wonder, why is it not there? 

 

33 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

GB and it's Writing Dept GO BEYOND THE THINGS WRITTEN,

That's fine with direct and obvious scriptures and Bible books. But how would you explain (interpret) books such as Revelation, Ezekiel, Daniel etc?

And I thought we already established that no one would any longer be inspired after the last of the apostles died.

[JW Insider]

6 hours ago, Anna said:

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Brother Splane said when he admitted that over 100 teachings that had turned Bible parables and Bible historical narratives into specific prophecies

Do you have a reference for that?

It was Splane's "historic" (they called it) Annual Meeting talk in October 2014, especially when he referred to how Brother Bert Schroeder had counseled exactly this, many years earlier. Schroeder's statement was kind of a "motto" that Brother Splane repeated as the primary takeaway for this new way of looking at these portions of Scripture.

That point was rewritten in the March 15, 2015 Watchtower, p.18 as follows:

“Humans cannot know which Bible accounts are shadows of things to come and which are not. The clearest course is this: Where the Scriptures teach that an individual, an event, or an object is typical of something else, we accept it as such. Otherwise, we ought to be reluctant to assign an antitypical application to a certain person or account if there is no specific Scriptural basis for doing so.”

The original video is now here: https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#en/mediaitems/VODPgmEvtAnnMtg/pub-jwbam_201410_1_VIDEO "Types and Antitypes." It starts at about 2 hours:8 minutes into the video. At 2h:13m:07s he says:

"Now we know that these [ones spoken of by Jesus and Paul] are genuine types because the word of God says they are. But here is the question: Who is to decide if a person or an event is a type, if the word of God doesn't say anything about it? Who is qualified to do that? Our answer? We can do no better than to quote our beloved Brother Albert Schroeder who said, 'We need to exercise great care when applying accounts in the Hebrew Scriptures as prophetic patterns or types if these accounts are not applied in the Scriptures themselves." Wasn't that a beautiful statement! We agree with it.

After giving several examples of this "typology" (as he called it) from several different religions, including religions the Bible Students had been part of. And these religions often applied these types to themselves, just as the Watchtower applied many of them to Bible Students and Witnesses in modern times.  Brother Splane repeats that the most important problem with them is that these applications were not found in the Scriptures themselves. He even asks, "If the study of a certain subject makes chills run up and down your spine, could it possibly be mistaken?' And the answer was YES!" Then at 2h:19m:22s he repeats this idea again, and says:

"Well, in recent years the trend in our publications has been to look for the practical application of Bible events and not for types where the scripture themselves do not identify them as such. We simply cannot go beyond what is written!"

There's a funny thing Splane does in the video where he almost makes it look like the Pyramid idea came from a Brother A. Smith who wrote the Society from time to time to tell them his ideas about how the Pyramid told of God's purpose. He gives the impression that Russell only mentioned it once, but that this brother was so "emotionally" involved with the idea that he wrote to the Society about it several times. You can compare this to the actual things that Russell and Rutherford said about the Pyramid, and draw your own conclusion as to what Brother Splane is doing here. I also think it's curious that Albert Schroeder had died many years before, and this particular idea had been first expressed by others and finally by Brother Schroeder, too, several years before he died. Evidently not enough members of the Governing Body agreed with it at the time. But, even though it was now several years later, Brother Splane in 2014 can say it was a beautiful statement, and that 'we agree with it.'

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Anna said:

I have not noticed 1914 diminishing in importance.

Probably depends on the book or article and the particular writer assigned. For example, 1914 is mentioned in Chapter 8 but the whole big section on 1914 with charts and diagrams in "What Does the Bible Really Teach?" were moved to the Appendix, whereas they had previously been in the main text.

• The 2018 Watchtower Study edition never mentioned 1914 once.
• The 2018 Watchtower Public edition only mentioned 1914 once.*
• The 2019 Watchtower Public editions never mentioned 1914 once.

*And only as a fulfillment for Jesus' prophecy about wars and reports of wars, NOT as a fulfillment related to Christ's enthronement.

Compare this to 76 mentions in the Watchtower for 2014.

This is not enough to measure a trend yet, but it's something to watch for.

4 hours ago, Anna said:

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

in the past we said that Nebuchadnezzar represented Christ, but the Watchtower has now explicitly stated that this is not the type of parallel.

I hate being a bother but do you have the reference for that at hand?

*** w79 9/15 p. 23 par. 8 The “Cup” That All Nations Must Drink at God’s Hand ***
Why did Jehovah call King Nebuchadnezzar “my servant”? Because He used him to punish the people of Judah for their refusal to listen to His prophets. Punishment through this king of Babylon also extended to the neighboring countries that maliciously exploited Jehovah’s people out of contempt for Him. This does not mean, however, that Nebuchadnezzar was a type of Jesus Christ, who worshiped Jehovah alone as God. Rather, it is the executional work that Nebuchadnezzar performed for Jehovah upon the guilty nations that is typical. It prefigures the world-conquering work that Jesus Christ as Jehovah’s Chief Executional Officer carries out during the approaching “great tribulation,” in which all the enemy nations will be reduced to dust under the feet of Jehovah’s topmost Servant.

*** w50 11/15 p. 444 par. 17 Subjection to the Higher Powers ***
So it must be remembered that both Nebuchadnezzar and Cyrus were used as types. In destroying Jerusalem in 607 B.C. and taking the Jews captive to Babylon Nebuchadnezzar was being used as Jehovah’s executioner against the unfaithful Jewish nation. For this reason Jehovah spoke of him as “my servant” and gave him the domination over other nations of this world. In this capacity Nebuchadnezzar was a type of Jesus Christ.

The 100 plus teachings that would be impacted by the October 2014 Annual Meeting talk, and the subsequent Watchtower in March 15, 2015 would include these 42 from the book "You May Survive Armageddon into God's New World":

80 more of these were included in a 1981 Watchtower:

*** w81 3/1 p. 27 Do You Appreciate the “Faithful and Discreet Slave”? ***
OVERWHELMING CREDENTIALS
The “faithful and discreet slave” has abundant credentials. Following is a partial list of Scriptural and prophetic designations applying to or being represented in the remnant of Jesus Christ’s anointed followers since the notable year 1919:
(1) Noah’s wife, Gen. 7:7; (2) angels sent to Lot, Gen. 19:15; (3) Rebekah, Gen. 24:64; (4) Joseph and Benjamin, Gen. 45:14; (5) gleanings left behind, Lev. 19:9; (6) two spies to Rahab, Josh. 2:4; (7) Barak, Judg. 4:14; (8) Jephthah, Judg. 11:34; (9) Naomi and Ruth, Ruth 2:2; (10) David’s Israelite warriors, 2 Sam. 18:1; (11) Jehu, 2 Ki. 10:11, 15; (12) Mordecai and Esther, Esther 4:13; (13) Job, Job 42:10, 13; (14) King’s daughter, Ps. 45:13; (15) men of loving-kindness, Ps. 50:5; (16) intimate group, Ps. 89:7; (17) Shear-jashub, Isa. 7:3; (18) light of the nations, Isa. 60:3; (19) big trees of righteousness, Isa. 61:3; (20) ministers of our God, Isa. 61:6; (21) cluster preserved, Isa. 65:8; (22) servants called by another name, Isa. 65:15; (23) men trembling at God’s word, Isa. 66:5; (24) new nation born, Isa. 66:8; (25) Jeremiah, Jer. 1:10; (26) Jehovah’s people in the new covenant, Jer. 31:33; (27) enduring watchman, Ezek. 3:16-27; (28) man in linen, Ezek. 9:2; (29) cleansed people, Ezek. 36:29-32; (30) dwellers in center of earth, Ezek. 38:12; (31) the host of heaven, Dan. 8:10; (32) sanctuary restored (cleansed), Dan. 8:14; (33) they that are wise, Dan. 11:33; (34) the happy one who is keeping in expectation, Dan. 12:12; (35) all flesh receiving the spirit, Joel 2:28; (36) Jonah, Jon. 3:1-3; (37) apple of Jehovah’s eye, Zech. 2:8; (38) liberated remnant, Zech. 2:7; (39) a Jew, Zech. 8:23; (40) sons of Levi, Mal. 3:3; (41) wheat, Matt. 13:25; (42) sons of the kingdom, Matt. 13:38; (43) workers for the vineyard, Matt. 20:1; (44) those invited to marriage feast, Matt. 22:3-14; (45) chosen ones, Matt. 24:22; (46) eagles, Matt. 24:28; (47) faithful and discreet slave, Matt. 24:45; (48) discreet virgins, Matt. 25:2; (49) brothers of the king, Matt. 25:40; (50) little flock of sheep, Luke 12:32; (51) beggar Lazarus, Luke 16:20; (52) sheep in “this fold,” John 10:1-16; (53) branches of the vine, John 15:4; (54) royal palace of David, Acts 15:16; (55) heirs with Christ, Rom. 8:17; (56) the remnant, Rom. 11:5; (57) branches in the olive tree, Rom. 11:24; (58) holy ones or saints, 1 Cor. 6:2; Rev. 16:6; (59) temple, 1 Cor. 6:19; (60) new creation, 2 Cor. 5:17; (61) ambassadors for Christ, 2 Cor. 5:20; (62) congregation of God, Gal. 1:13; (63) part of Abraham’s seed, Gal. 3:29; (64) Israel of God, Gal. 6:16; (65) body of Christ, Eph. 1:22, 23; (66) soldiers of Christ Jesus, 2 Tim. 2:3; (67) house under Christ, Heb. 3:6; (68) holy priesthood, 1 Pet. 2:5; (69) holy nation, 1 Pet. 2:9; (70) association of brothers, 1 Pet. 2:17; (71) seven congregations, Rev. 1:20; (72) twenty-four persons of advanced age, Rev. 4:4; (73) spiritual Israel, Rev. 7:4; (74) locusts, Rev. 9:3; (75) two witnesses, Rev. 11:3; (76) two olive trees, Rev. 11:4; (77) seed of the woman, Rev. 12:17; (78) New Jerusalem, Rev. 21:2; (79) the bride of Christ, Rev. 22:17; 19:7; (80) Jehovah’s witnesses, Isa. 43:10.

[Anna]

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

WOW ! This should be put up in lights outside every Kingdom Hall, for all Witnesses and members of the public to read. 

@JW Insider and there's your 15 minutes of fame!

[JW Insider]

3 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Usually, when I start to prove people wrong is when people get banned from this forum.

Watch out, you just admitted that it was you who got people banned from this forum. And up until now, I'm sure no one had any idea that it was you getting yourself banned all those times. 🙄

3 hours ago, César Chávez said:

CHRONOLOGY--Pyramid Re 1910.
Q77:1:: QUESTION (1910)--1--What event is to take
place in 1910, which is pointed out in the Pyramid?

You said: "Russell didn't care for the Pyramid scheme" and now it appears you wish to give, as evidence, the fact that Russell wasn't sure if the Pyramid indicated anything for the year 1910. If you read what Russell said, however, he claimed that the Pyramid perfectly supported 1874, 1878, 1881 and 1914. He had several times predicted related events timed to about 1910, but he could not distinctly find them in the Pyramid, as he claimed to have found for other dates.

Even in 1911, just months after this 1910 question was answered, Russell said in the March 15, 1911 Watch Tower:

"No doubt all of our readers have read STUDIES IN THE SCRIPTURES, Vol. III, the last chapter of which describes the Pyramid and sets forth much of the wonderful symbolic teachings shown in its construction. It shows the Pyramid to be in exact harmony with the Bible. Indeed, some, after reading this volume, have referred to the Great Pyramid as 'The Bible in Stone.'"

Just because Russell didn't care for how well the scheme supported 1910, doesn't mean he didn't care about how it was in EXACT harmony, he claimed, with 1874, 1878, 1881 and 1914.

The 1917 Finished Mystery book bragged about how Russell's chronology was written before he ever saw the Pyramid, and before he even saw any of Edgar's abundant evidences of the accuracy of Bible chronology in the Pyramid.

In 1920 Rutherford went to see it, and the Watch Tower in Dec 15 reported that all the other pyramids were built under the direction of Satan except "the Great Pyramid, which was built under the Lord's supervision."

In the June 15 1922 Watch Tower Rutherford published that the "present-truth chronology . . . the correspondency of dozens of measurements proves that the same God designated both pyramid and plan. . ."

By 1924, it was claimed of course in the May 21, 1924 Golden Age that the Pyramid, the "Scientific Bible" verified the importance of 1874, 1914 and 1925. (This addition of the 1925 date is actually kind of hilarious if you have carefully read Charles Piazzi Smyth and Joseph Seiss, and see how Russell had re-used their material.)

Also in 1924, The Way to Paradise, showed the Pyramid with the caption "GOD'S PLAN WRITTEN IN STONE." Here, it was conjectured that Shem probably built it. Russell had conjectured it was Melchizedek.

This was repeated in 1925, and as late as 1926, the Watch Tower said that "advanced Bible Students believe that the Great Pyramid at Gizeh is the witness to the Lord in the Land of Egypt mentioned by the Prophet. (Isa. 19:19)"

It was not until 1928 that it became a monument built "under the direction of Satan the Devil." It was now Satan's Bible and no longer "Jehovah's Witness" in stone. This was one of the reasons for the controversy when Rutherford insisted that this false information in Volume III, continue to be sold and advertised in 1929, 1930, 1931, 1932, etc. And still made available for sale by the Society even in the 1940's. Special deluxe editions of the Studies in the Scriptures were still mentioned in the Kingdom Ministry as late as July 1967.