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A Difficult Doctrine. With an easy explanation.


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The old method of handling this was to use the expression "present truth." Many adventists including Seventh Day still use the expression. It's based on a mistranslation of 2 Peter 1:12 where the KJV

Now I understand why many executives disallow any reports to them longer than one page. They KNOW how easy it is to be hypnotized by many words, which for some, is a finely tuned art form.

I was thinking that this was part of the normal run of the buses, and knowing you can't tell if a bus was speeding by checking the mileage. So it reminded me of the joke about the two fishermen,

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38 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I don't think it's any more lax now. School districts can and still do require some bus companies they contract with to use driving monitors, and can even require breathalyzers. I heard about one type of ignition monitor, mostly for hazardous materials transport, that actually doesn't use your breath, but just a touch to the skin to measure the existence of alcohol. But this can't tell the amount, only the recent existence of some amount of alcohol in the system.

I can still hear our terminal manager, furious at the cost he was going to incur in equipping each bus with the new arm that jutted out from the side with flashing lights each time the bus stopped.

Some idiot in Albany!!! And what does he stuff down everyone else’s throat? “If it saves one life, it's worth it”  And now he is the hero of the year!!!! “If it saves one life, its worth it!” What won’t save at least one life? The idiot!!!”

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Nice and lively here today 😀

 

4 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I am glad YOU get the point, because I did not know there was a point to be gotten.

Now don't lie JTR, there was definitely a point

 

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

It seems that i made myself to be only naive here .... i read until last dot :))))) 

Anna, you did it on purpose, didn't you? :)))))  to catch some bugs and flies in the net

I am sorry. I should have prefaced it with "no need to read" . I really just posted it to illustrate that we don't do this anymore and that we have progressed as with the "WT 66 Question from readers" @b4ucuhear posted, about changes in truth where it says "at times there may be changes in viewpoint. Our basic belief may be sound Scriptural truth, but there may be some details that we did not fully understand in the past. In time, with the aid of Jehovah’s spirit, we get those matters cleared up". It is a little ironic though that after this WT was printed, the next WT- 68, the article I posted, there was the attempt at arriving at a specific date, so then THAT had to be cleared up after 1975. But now, not only are things cleared up, but they are also simplified, and as Br. Splane said in his 2014 talk, we no longer ascribe types and antitypes to everything and we try hard "not to go beyond the things that are written".

I can understand why the early Bible students felt the need to unravel every "mystery" in the Bible. After all, why are they there? All these numbers and prophesies are there for a reason. But as the same 66 WT says: "...we do not know all there is to know. In fact, even when the post-Armageddon system of things is ushered in we will not know everything. Throughout all eternity there will always be more to learn". 

So we are slowly learning. Perhaps this will also apply to the 1914 doctrine one day....

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On 12/15/2019 at 12:44 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

“We Must Obey God as Ruler Rather Than Men” 

This is something that not sound to me as doctrine. This sound as standpoint.

  "We "MUST" obey God as ruler rather than man." To me, Jesus' words here sound like more than just a general "standpoint" (or point of view by definition) that can change depending on the opinion/situation of the observer. I don't want to get into an endless semantic debate of what "standpoint" means to you or to me, since I may be misunderstanding your line of reasoning here. (I am assuming English is not your first language and so while you may have what you are thinking clear in your mind, it may be that articulating those thoughts may lose something in translation. It also may be that I am too slow to pick up on what your are trying to say at times - sorry :))  I think of Jesus' statement here similarly to his statement at Matthew 22:21: "Pay back, therefore, Caesar's things to caesar, but God's things to God." To me that was a clear command/directive that was to be in place at all times - more so, especially as long as Satan's systems is in place, along with the proviso of "relative" obedience as quoted above of "obeying God as Ruler rather than man." If, you prefer to think of both of these statements in terms of a principle, I would agree with you there as well.  

On 12/15/2019 at 12:44 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

Peter and John answered: “We cannot stop speaking about the things we have seen and heard.”  I don't think there is much doubt as to what things they had seen and heard during their association with Jesus and afterwards. We do have the Bible record for that. So I'm assuming you are not questioning that.

On 12/15/2019 at 12:44 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

we have now more explanations and interpretations how should look like today's reality of "obey god rather than man". Even things about education come to be viewed through this sort of glasses. Advice to not going to higher education coming from "spiritual place" as god's instruction through GB. Not obeying counsel/advice/recommendation in this matter is considered as not putting god on first place in life. But contrary, own selfish ambitions. As consequence this could be understand that you listen/obey yourself and not god. 

I think you answered your own question here. How so? You had mentioned that "Advice not going to higher education coming from "spiritual place" as God's instruction through the GB." Well, I think we have explored in great detail how the GB is not miraculously inspired, not infallible, are imperfect, make mistakes in both judgment and understanding... (Although we do recognize this "arrangement" as being from God - even as the nation of Israel had an imperfect "channel" including Moses and the Levitical priesthood that was to expound and teach the nation of Israel.) True, more often than is desirable, the leaders of the nation of Israel made mistakes and were even corrupt at times. But when was it ever acceptable to leave off worshipping Jehovah through his arrangement just because imperfect men didn't do what was expected of them? When would it have been OK for example, to join themselves to the false religions of surrounding nations that worshipped false Gods or even start their own religion - even though Israel's leaders were at times corrupt, immoral, apostate..?" This was Jehovah's arrangement for pure worship and everyone from the top down was accountable to him as to how they chose to use their freedom of choice. Even so, they had to respect his "arrangement" for pure worship - especially since it was to be found nowhere else. 

 So back to the point at hand. You answered your own question by stating that "...counsel/advice/recommendation in this matter..." So we are not equating the counsel/advice/recommendation of the GB on par with the miraculously inspired commands and principles from Jesus Christ himself as head of the congregation. (i.e.. obey God as ruler rather than man...") I will qualify that by honestly acknowledging that some JW's act like they are in a cult (even though we are not) or even seem to worship an organization. But it is also honest to acknowledge that you will find such people in every religion - (especially one of the major ones in particular.) 

On 12/15/2019 at 12:44 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

About what JW's of today can making claim as apostles did? What things JW today "have seen and heard"  that make their standpoint so firm to obey god as ruler? They have seen and heard only their faith and beliefs. Because they have not seen and heard nothing similar what apostles or first christians experienced.  

That seriously could be said of anyone who claims to worship God - including yourself. So should we all just throw our hands up and walk away? I don't see you doing that. We have at least, the Bible record which by faith, we can "see and hear" the same things the apostles did. I could also include modern-day examples as well, but I doubt you would WANT to accept any of them since you seem to have an agenda anyway. 

 

On 12/15/2019 at 12:44 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

But does “truth” change?

 

I am not interested in opening another door for endless debate regarding "what is truth?" John 18:38. Rather, I would suggest you do a word study on the word "truth," and see for yourself what it involves. A few verses to start you off: John 4:24 God is a spirit and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth. John 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. John 17:17...your word is truth. 1 Tim. 2:4 ...and come to an accurate knowledge of the truth. John 18:37...I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is on the side of the truth listens to my voice."... As for the rest of your opinions regarding "truth" and how it changes or whatever... I really don't have time to get into that. Sorry. That is not to mean there is not a viable response, rather that it will take much more time that I feel will just be wasted. 

 

On 12/15/2019 at 1:29 PM, 4Jah2me said:

Obviously no Holy Spirit involved there. So you cannot say that it was new light or better understanding when it was originally known anyway 

Fair enough if you prefer to view it that way. But this, as well as other examples, show that what has sometimes been viewed as "new light" has not proven true at all. I can't speak for anyone else, but I do not feel mindless unquestioning obedience or acceptance of ongoing teachings is a mark of loyalty to God. It is a mark of loyalty to an imperfect uninspired organization. Still, I haven't come across any organization (religious or otherwise) that has MORE going for it. I believe there are many strong positives that set us apart - not perfect and lots of room for improvement, but I expect that will come - if gradually. After all, it has taken thousands of years to shed the blatantly false and God-dishounoring doctrines of nominal Christianity. If you feel your religion is better, let's hear about it and then we can scrutinize your beliefs as well - (instead of constantly sniping at us from the safety of a remote computer terminal with nothing positive to say.) 

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@b4ucuhear  I think you and @TrueTomHarley must be twins. You have the same outlook concerning the JW Org.

Next thing you will say is "It's the best game in town " :). I wonder, do you write books too ?

And this expression gets boring too  "If you feel your religion is better, .." 

My religion, if you need to pigeon hole me. is Christian. I do not belong to a specific 'church' of men. 

If i read you right here (quote)  "what has sometimes been viewed as "new light" has not proven true at all", you are agreeing with me. And you continue to agree with me on how wrong it is to 'blindly follow' the GB and the Org.  But of course, as you have been hurt by my comments, you have to try to shoot me down in flames at the end of yours. :)  I don't mind. Its human nature to respond when you get hurt. 

But I am finding that most JWs on here are seeing the truth in my comments. I can tell by the way they cut me down. 

And here is my positive input, if you haven't noticed it before :-

I feel that Almighty God, through Jesus Christ, will do one of two things. God will either clean up the JW Org and restore the true Remnant / Anointed to run that Org, or, God will use the true Remnant / Anointed to start a new way of serving God properly. Either way God will use His Holy Spirit to properly guide those He chooses to take the lead. Therefore those taking the lead will be inspired of God. And obviously they will be given a proper understanding of the scriptures they need to instruct those of the earthly class. I feel that the scripture which talks about 'ten men clinging to the skirt of a Jew', will come true, as those of the Earthly Class 'cling' to the 'Jew' that is the remnant of the Anointed here on earth.  However for all this to happen I feel there needs to be another few years before the Judgement time. I've said 10 years, but in my heart i know of course that God could do it all in ten days, if He so wished.... So there is my positive input, and i haven't needed to be part of a 'church' to work that out. 

 

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38 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

And this expression gets boring too  "If you feel your religion is better, .." 

Boring to you or not, it's a valid point that is not made less valid by you trying to minimize it as "boring."

40 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

My religion, if you need to pigeon hole me. is Christian. I do not belong to a specific 'church' of men. 

Many people claim to be "Christian," as God's Word said would be the case. And in fact, there are tens of thousands of different Christian religions alone. So handing yourself a "Christian" label doesn't add much weight to your argument. But it appears you have your own personal ideas that are not entirely in line with any denomination or "church." (I don't know that for sure, but it is looking that way). If that is the case, you seem to assume that your version of Christianity is the true one and everyone else (or at least JWs) is lacking/wrong somehow. That all of a sudden you pop up out of nowhere with your personal diatribe and that gives you credibility how? That Jehovah God is dealing with you personally and you alone have the truth? I think there's a pill for that.

 

49 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

If i read you right here (quote)  "what has sometimes been viewed as "new light" has not proven true at all", you are agreeing with me. And you continue to agree with me on how wrong it is to 'blindly follow' the GB and the Org. 

I wouldn't go too far beyond the scope of your reference here. I think the operative word here is "blindly." I don't recommend anyone follows any imperfect individuals blindly. The Bible counsels otherwise as do our publications at times. We are encouraged to not just read the material on new understanding but take the time to "understand" the reasoning why any changes occur. True that reasoning isn't always supplied in great measure, but it is good practice - even if we may feel we have to wait for a better explanation in time. 

 

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

And here is my positive input, if you haven't noticed it before :-

Actually, I'm not on this site all that often and so haven't noticed any positive input from you before. As for the rest of what you think will happen, I respect your right to see things according to your understanding, but I also respectfully disagree. What happens if, 10 years from now, JW's and the GB continue to flourish and be productive (despite their failings) and none of your prognostications have come true? Awkward, no? All that time on the internet wasted. On the other hand, to be fair to you, what if Jehovah sees it necessary to make the changes you envision? I guess we'll just have to roll with them... won't we? 

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