1914

[TrueTomHarley]

13 hours ago, ComfortMyPeople said:

So, at least something, a part, of the meaning of the book should be useful to us, but due to the POINTS # 1 to # 4 mentioned above, we, the JW, have a special difficulty in understanding apocalyptic literature.

In all discussions about how inspired of Holy Spirit different ones are, I have not seen the verse (nor have I thought to bring it up myself) Acts 5:32

“And we are witnesses of these matters, and so is the holy spirit, which God has given to those obeying him as ruler.”

It is simply left out of the equation, and it probably shouldn’t be. “Obey God as ruler” and one may expect a measure of Holy Spirit. Drag one’s feet on obeying him and that will not be so. To my mind, the GB do obey him as ruler—they do their best.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

@TrueTomHarley Oh you are good for a laugh  Quote " To my mind, the GB do obey him as ruler "

You are so funny.  You are also so blind.

You cannot see that your GB have simply followed on from past lies and mistakes. You cannot see that your GB use dishonest lawyers in courts. You cannot see that your GB are presumptuous in saying that they are the F&DS.  You cannot see that your GB are exalting themselves by saying only they, those 8 men, are the F&DS and that the true Anointed should not even contact one another around this Earth, and should not study God's word together. 

And then the GB admit to not being inspired by God's Holy spirit. And it seems to have been proven that GB members are not chosen by God's Holy spirit. Homosexual GB members ? GB members that have written study books, but then been D/fed ?  

And the GB are withholding information from the Courts / Authorities concerning Child Sexual Abuse. Information which could help victims to gain peace and closure. Giving that information would show the willingness for justice, mercy, love, and to 'Serve God as ruler rather than men'. 

But NO. Your GB Govern / Rule over / Dictate to, the Watchtower Soc' and JW Org and 8.5 million sheep.  Making up the rules, misusing scriptures, misleading million. Well it's working Tom, it's misleading you. 

 

@James Thomas Rook Jr.  Thank you for your perspective.

Quote " And besides, there will be clueless officers and crew on that ship to make you miserable ... but if you "jump ship", you better have a better place to go. "

It seems to me that JWs are brainwashed into thinking that when a person leaves the JW Org, that person will go 'back into the wicked world'. JWs are surely not that naive as to believe that every ex-JW suddenly becomes a 'wicked person' doing all manner of wicked deeds.  It's what your GB / Elders et al want you to believe of course.  But it isn't so.

There is an in between. There is a 'safe harbour'. Not on the JW ship, but not in that murky water either. 

However Mr Rook, your ship is sinking, the murky water is getting in, the JW ship, as you know, is no longer clean. And why would I wish to be part of what is unclean ? 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

33 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

However Mr Rook, your ship is sinking, the murky water is getting in, the JW ship, as you know, is no longer clean. And why would I wish to be part of what is unclean ? 

Your premise is faulty.

The problem is NOT that the "organization is "unclean" ... the problem is that it is plagued by the exact same things that plague ALL organized religion.

It is crystal clear that God has a Congregation ... unless you can show me one NOT plagued by all things common to man .. you have no case to make.

You have made many good and true, and valuable points (mostly). But you have not made the case until you have a better solution.

The question for YOU is ..... same as Noah's neighbors were asked by Noah, as they stood around, watching Noah and his family build a huge Ark in his suburban driveway, and they asked him what he was building.

He replied , "How long can you tread water, ha ha ha?"

 

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

I'll repeat what I said above.

 There is an in between. There is a 'safe harbour'. Not on the JW ship, but not in that murky water either. 

Um what happened, in your eyes, to the thoughts :-

To 'keep oneself without spot from the world'.   

To, 'first clean the inside of the dish or bowl, then the outside will also be clean'.

And for the true Anointed

English Standard Version
You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

And you say :-

The problem is NOT that the "organization is "unclean" ... the problem is that it is plagued by the exact same things that plague ALL organized religion.

But it seems God said IT SHOULD NOT BE. 

 

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

21 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

English Standard Version
You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 DUH !

It is very easy to be able to tell who can fulfill the scripture about being perfect, as your Heavenly Father is perfect ......they do not die.

If you can still require that from ANYONE, 500 years from now, I will consider your points to be valid.

My guess you will be lying on your back, with your arms folded across your chest, and sucking dirt, as will everybody else.alive today.

[Srecko Sostar]

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

we are witnesses of these matters, and so is the holy spirit,

In Act 5 we see how apostles were busy with Jesus' teaching and because of that they fall under persecution. As a tool for defending themselves they said:

²⁹ Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings! ³⁰ The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead—whom you killed by hanging him on a cross. ³¹ God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins. ³² We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

They claim how they witnessed of these two things:

1) Jesus raised from dead

2) Jesus was exalted to God' own right hand

Peter and apostles claimed how they are witnesses of this two things. No one of them saw by own eyes Jesus' resurrection. And two of apostles didn't recognize resurrected Jesus when he appeared to them ("they were kept from recognizing him" - verse said, Luke 24).....   When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 

After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God - Mark 16

He began to be parted from them, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.” - Act 1:9

As we see from this Bible verse, cloud made impossible for apostles to see how he sat down.

Important questions are: What sort of witnesses were apostles? To what events they witnessed? 

They saw resurrected Jesus but not recognized him and they didn't saw nothing what was happened in the Heaven about his sitting down. Now, we have their claim how holy spirit is also witness to this two events. And they call for HS, in front their persecutors, as some sort of undeniable proof to their claims. Perhaps they expected how persecutors will be afraid to go against HS and stop to persecuted them. But that didn't happened. 

I see here these subject: Apostles calling for HS because they personally didn't saw nothing of spoken claims. But it seems how they want to tell us, how individuals who received (will receive in a close of far future) HS will be in position to see invisible things. But to receive HS you have to Obey. Apostles send message to persecutors how then are not Obeying HS and as result they can't receive HS and as next result they can't see or to be witnesses of this two events.  

Did apostles received HS to see invisible things? How it came about that HS didn't open their eyes to recognize Jesus at first sight? They didn't been inspired at that moment? But after they were? It seems how these Bible verses talking about importance to be under influence of HS, or to be inspired, as precondition to be able to see, and understand, what is going on.

Now we came again to one of crucial questions. Is it possible to be inspired by HS and as such, in that condition of mind, hearth, spirituality, to be Witness for things not heard and not seen in literal sense? Because only if we are inspired we See things, invisible. Not only invisible because they are in some other place and time in Universum. But also to see invisible things here on Earth, in the Bible, in WT Society, JW congregation and in society as whole? 

To what things JW's witnessing today? And what sort of witnesses they are? Are they merely witnesses of their own faith, beliefs? Are they witnesses to "signs"? But as was already said and as it is written in the Bible looking or searching for "signs" are not what Jesus recommended. 

Of what importance then is, to be witness of 1914 events? or other events in WT history and her life as Mother Organization? 

 

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Peter and apostles claimed how they are witnesses of this two things. No one of them saw by own eyes Jesus' resurrection. And two of apostles didn't recognize resurrected Jesus when he appeared to them

Interesting points, in that it made them witnesses of what they saw through the "eyes" of their faith. Faith is assured expectation of things not seen. They saw the resurrected Jesus, but he was in a different state, "materialized." In time, they all had faith that this was not a demon or just any angel materializing as Jesus, but Jesus himself, the one they had previously witnessed in person. (The resurrected Jesus restored as an even more powerful spirit being, but materialized.) Up to 500 persons saw him in this state. And through the outpouring of the holy spirit at Pentecost they realized what they were receiving, in faith, that this was what Jesus had promised after he would sit down at the right hand of the Father's heavenly throne. As a group, however, they witnessed this, too. Stephen had a vision of Jesus standing at God's right hand. (Makes no difference if you are sitting or standing when you are at the right hand of the throne of majesty.)

[Arauna]

On 12/28/2019 at 9:46 PM, 4Jah2me said:

God through Christ will KNOW EXACTLY when to ACT.  It

True, but Jesus said: “Notice the fig tree and all the other trees.  When they are budding, you see it for yourselves and know that now the summer is near." 

When I watch world events I compare it to what I have read in the bible.  It helps me to understand what is going on. This is why I agree with the GB.  It is not worship of them which allows me to agree with them -  it is knowledge of the realities around me.   I see the big blossoms opening up everywhere! 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

@JW Insider & @Srecko Sostar This helps me to have faith that the True Anointed will get true direction from God through Christ, by Holy Spirit. 

Because we live in such an important time period and because there is supposed to be a large in gathering before Judgement time, there needs to be real spiritual upbuilding for the Anointed Remnant, so that the direction they give will be positive enough to draw people to God. Hence my feelings that there is quite a long time before that Judgement time.  The time period is important but that doesn't mean in is very short. I honestly feel that God or Christ will make much more known to those they chose as worthy of being the F&DS. 

11 minutes ago, Arauna said:

True, but Jesus said: “Notice the fig tree and all the other trees.  When they are budding, you see it for yourselves and know that now the summer is near." 

When I watch world events I compare it to what I have read in the bible.  It helps me to understand what is going on. This is why I agree with the GB.  It is not worship of them which allows me to agree with them -  it is knowledge of the realities around me.   I see the big blossoms opening up everywhere! 

Whilst i agree with you, the JW Org predicted 1975 or mid 70's. The Org has been talking about world conditions since JWs began. But it could still continue for ten or more years. In my opinion, it is not world conditions that are important, it is God's own reasons for His timing. God could keep it 'simmering ' for another 100 years if He so wished. 

[Arauna]

19 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

The Org has been talking about world conditions since JWs began.

Well, world conditions have changed considerably after WW1...... weapons development, population explosion, damage to the earth /biosphere -  just to name 3 items on a long list.

 

22 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

could still continue for ten or more years.

True, but it is as though the stage is set for people to kill each other (in most countries) - brother against brother.  Violence and hate is brewing  and UN will step in with surveillance and new moral laws.  So it could take 10 years or more  BUT it could happen sooner..... depending on the resistance to UN plans and UN determination to push their plans through to create peace and security. - their way. Agenda 2030 must be completed by 2030. By 2022 they want a world federal currency. 

The glaziers on Himmalayas is melting, Maldives going under water, fire hazards everywhere, forests destroyed with rare species of plants and animals, desertification, etc.  - these conditions will create more food and water shortages, national disasters, etc which could speed up unrest and the need for UN intervention.  

World events are volatile and unpredictable bringing critical times. While we watch the intensity of the birth pains increasing - we know the birth is eminent but we do not know the date....However ,  we can recognize what is going on. 

41 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

there needs to be real spiritual upbuilding for the Anointed Remnant, so that the direction they give will be positive enough to draw people to God

Jesus had the approval of God and was anointed by Jehovah and the world hated him.  Why would we expect  imperfect men be more successful than Jesus? 

 

[Evacuated]

On 12/28/2019 at 5:08 PM, JW Insider said:

Doesn't common sense tell us that the end is getting closer all the time, and that a final generation must appear at some point? With all the global problems, terrors, and fears, isn't now the most likely time to see ourselves in that final generation?

Quite so. And the understanding we have now, as proclaimed by the GB of Jehovah's Witnesses and supported by their application of Scripture, would appear to me to bear this out.

The various perspectives of those contributing to the discussion on this matter really would not exist at all if it were not for these proclamations at this time. The historical "curios" of understanding that have led people who have stuck with the organisation to this point of time are in the public domain, as are similar "artifacts" of all areas of human endeavour. 

Whether revered as trailblazing milestones in the search for truth, or ridiculed as crank-minded curios for the amusement of cynics, the body of historical thinking on the part of Jehovah's Witnesses serves really only one purpose. The 1st Century view of the apostle Paul on the effect of  various expressions of opinion on Christianty is as valid today as it was at the the time it was written:

"With what result? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is being proclaimed, and I rejoice over this. In fact, I will also keep on rejoicing," Phillippians 1:18

 

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

True, but Jesus said: “Notice the fig tree and all the other trees.  When they are budding, you see it for yourselves and know that now the summer is near." 

Thanks for this reminder @Arauna

When I mentioned early in this topic that @Anna had brought up a couple of points/questions that I hadn't really been able to consider fully, this was one of them. It's easy to see what C.T.Russell was thinking when he said that wars, earthquakes and famine and pestilence, etc., were NOT part of the sign, because as he said, Jesus was here just telling us the common experience of mankind for the last 18 centuries.

But it is obvious that the fig tree appears to refer to some kind of sign that people can see is in advance of a season. This appears to counter the idea of Jesus and Paul that the times and seasons are none of our concern, not even the angels, but only the Father.

The current doctrine may have several apparent contradictions with scripture, but I don't want to just jump over to another interpretation that also has contradictions.