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Revelation: Babylon the Great, etc.


Arauna

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On 1/8/2020 at 7:32 PM, Witness said:

Did Jesus or the disciples ever put a date on a prophecy and

Jesus gave them signs to recognize when the Roman's would be there in the holy place.......they had to be aware of the first Roman invasion to know they must flee before the second invasion would come..... but both if you believe we must not look at signs...... it is all spiritual...

On 1/8/2020 at 12:38 AM, Kosonen said:

For example I can not believe  WT teachings about:

Babylon the Great, the image of the beast, the beast with seven heads in

Just take the first one : Babylon the great -  I researched it years ago.  

Read book if Hosea - I quote just  a verses from Hosea 1 & 2:

" Jehovah said to Ho·seʹa: “Go, marry a woman of prostitution and have children of prostitution, because by prostitution the land has turned completely away from following Jehovah."  (Then jehovah speaks of Israel as his wife who was not faithful to him).

Hosea 2: "Accuse your mother; accuse her,For she is not my wife and I am not her husband. She should remove her prostitution from herselfAnd her adultery from between her breasts," 

And to her sons I will not show mercy,For they are the sons of prostitution.  5 For their mother has committed prostitution.She who was pregnant with them has acted shamefully, for she said,‘I will go after my passionate lovers,

 

Then she will say, ‘I will go back to my first husband,For I was better off at that time than I am now.’  8 She did not recognize that it was I who had given her the grain, the new wine, and the oil,And I who had given her silver in abundanceAnd gold, which they used for Baʹal

I will put an end to all her joy,Her festivals, her new moons, her sabbaths, and all her festive seasons.

will hold an accounting against her for the days when she offered sacrifices to the Baʹal images,When she would adorn herself with her rings and ornaments and would chase after her passionate lovers,And I was the one she forgot,’ declares Jehovah

 

From the above scriptures it is clear that Israel committed religious prostitution. She was supposed to represent the true God (be faithful to jehovah like a wife to a husband) but went after lovers.

In Revelation 17 we see a great prostitute who says she represents God but also has lovers, amongst others - the kings of the earth.  This, marriage between religion and politics started in ancient Babylon. 

There are many places in the bible that a  prostitute symbolises those who profess to represent God but are like a prostitute. 

So what about this can you not accept? 

 

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@Arauna Thanks Arauna for trying to help me. And I will try to help you in turn. I see your point that in the Bible Israel was figuratively speaking God's wife on earth, and because of Israel's unfaithfulness it is compared to an unfaithful wife, even a prostitute.

But the details in the descrition of Babylon the Great are quite many and many of them are very hard to fit religions in general. There is something else in the world that fit better the detailed description in Revelation 17 and 18. 

When talking about the symbolism of a prostitute in the Bible, we can find that also the evil city Nineve is described as a prostitute, quite similar to Babylon the Great. Nineve though described as a prostitute was never likend to God's wife. So Nineve was just a prostitute, or not, because Nineve was part of Satans kingdoms.

So, you see, I want to say that Babylon the Great, rather than being God's unfaithful wife, could instead be a prostitute whose owner is god of this world, Satan.

And like Nineve was a center for an empire, so Babylon the Great could be in the end time the center of an empire, an empire more powerful than USA or Russia or China, an empire that stokes conflicts and wars and everytime doing that grows stronger and wealthier.

Just for comparision, please see how much similarity there is with ancient Ninive and Babylon the Great. I don't mean anyone should link Babylon the Great to Nineve. I just want to draw the attention to the similarities, because that could indicate that Babylon the Great represent today a litteral great city, head of a secret empire more powerful than governments.

https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/nahum/3/

https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/revelation/17/

https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/revelation/18/

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1 hour ago, Kosonen said:

don't mean anyone should link Babylon the Great to Nineve

Agreed. But why did god call this city with great power over the earth and prostituted herself with the Kings of the earth "Babylon the great"?  What happened in Babylon which is a parallel today?

" Adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is making himself an enemy of God.  (Adulteress- unfaithful one)...... this should be a hint that it is not a political entity but a religious one.

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59 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Agreed. But why did god call this city with great power over the earth and prostituted herself with the Kings of the earth "Babylon the great"?  What happened in Babylon which is a parallel today?

 

The ancient Babylon fits as a paralell because God's people were captive there and even prospered there. Similarly today God's special people Jehovah's Witnrsses have prospered in today's Babylon the Great. The WT organization's headquarters have uninterruptedly been active there since they established in that costal powerful city. But now recently as we all know they have moved out of that costal city. That is a good move because today's Babylon the Great will be sunk into the see, but first burned. And sailors will see it from the sea in horror.

One point also why Babylon the Great can not be religions is because she has misled nations with spiritism as says Revelation 18. Beacause spiritism and religion are usually opposed. Religions usually condemn spiritism, so it can not be religions. 

But there has been a lot of talk about the ruling elite, that they are involved in spiritism through freemasonry and associated secret societies.

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12 hours ago, Kosonen said:

The ancient Babylon fits as a paralell because God's people were captive there and even prospered there. Similarly today God's special people Jehovah's Witnrsses have prospered in today's Babylon the Great. The WT organization's headquarters have uninterruptedly

This Babylon you refer to was the empire in 612 BCE - it is called the Neo-babylonian empire -the second time Babylon was an empire.

The bible speaks of Babylon the Great- why?

No- I am referring to the first Babylonian empire, a tyranny, built by Nimrod and his associates (not too long after the flood) when half of the world became divided (Genesis 10:25) in the land of Shinar.   They built a large empire with massive cities in Chaldea and Assyria and invaded territory which belonged to the semites (Asshur)  Genesis 10: 9-12.  This was before Assyria became a separate state and eventually a world empire which included Babylon. This was before Egypt became a world empire.

This was when false religion (Nimrod was an opposer of the true God)   divided the earth. There were  those who still clung to jehovah and those who followed Nimrod and helped him build this empire. The tower of Babel (with a temple on top of the tower) became prominent, the crown of the empire.  This was when governance and religion were mixed together in a king -priest.  Spells, spiritism, predicting the future with stars and the livers of animals, speaking to the dead,  oracles, became features of false religion and belief in the immortality of the soul. Trinitarian gods and devils.

Demons and their offspring before the flood, half-God half-man, based on the Nephilim, became worshipped and their stories were represented by the star formations and planets. Then these false religious ideas spread throughout the earth as a result of language confusion: such as the immortality of the soul and various trinities of gods..... Today we find in most religions such as Hinduism, ancestor worship, Islam and christendom to name only a few major denominations, the idea of the immortality of the soul which spread from Babylon to Greek culture and later was accepted by Christendom and Islam. 

The principle at 1 cor 10 applies. The nations sacrifice, but if it is not in correct way to the true God- they are sacrificing to demons..... being sharers with demons. 

12 hours ago, Kosonen said:

Beacause spiritism and religion are usually opposed. Religions usually condemn spiritism, so it can not be religions. 

This is a false notion. Israel as a nation were to stay only exclusively faithful to God but they continually strayed off and committed spiritistic acts by going after false gods and committing adultery etc. So too..... false religion continually commits spiritistic acts.  False religion commits spiritual adultery with the kings of the earth..... rejecting exclusive devotion to jehovah God. The world empire of false religion teaches immortality of the soul, trinities... which is rooted in the original Babylon - the mother of all spiritism. 

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1 hour ago, Arauna said:

So too..... false religion continually commits spiritistic acts. The world empire of false religion teaches immortality of the soul, trinities... which is rooted in the original Babylon - the mother of all spiritism. 

It is true that so called pagan religions are often involved in spiritism. Because they invoke demons. 

The word for spiritism in original greek is quote: φαρμακεία pharmakeía, far-mak-i'-ah; from G5332; medication ("pharmacy"), i.e. (by extension) magic (literally or figuratively):—sorcery, witchcraft.

 https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g5331

https://biblehub.com/greek/5331.htm

So is it not obvious that there is a clear difference of meaning between wrong beliefs such as immortal soul and actual practice of spiritism? 

And we should be aware that almost all churches that claim to be Christian forbid spiritism and sorcery, because they know what the Bible says about that. Also Islam strongly condemns spiritism and sorcery. You can make a research and see it for yourself. 

And don't you agree that the other characteristics describing Babylon the Great in Revelation 17,18 are impossible in their entirety to fit something what is called 'emiper of false religion'?

I give you a challenge: Can you to logically explain how every verse in Revelation 17 and 18 correspond to a so called 'empire of false religion'?

I think that would be an impossible task.

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Kosonen said:

claim to be Christian forbid spiritism and sorcery

It is the belief in the immortal soul which promotes all kinds of superstition regarding the dead and their powers.

Many Christian's claim to forbid it and yet practice superstition. Some have exorcisms, superstitiously wear crosses etc. A visit to south America or Spain and Portugal may open your eyes.  The celebration of the souls of dead or ancestors has culminated in Halloween - which most Christian's participate in.  Participation in drink, festival or ceremonies, song dance or a kiss to them is idolatry.

Islam is exeedingly superstitious -  the "evil eye " comes to mind, apart from the belief that the jinn can assault a woman sexually.  The jinn are demons created by God. Some are good and some are evil.  Imams exorcise these jinn from women. 

It is interesting that the bible calls greed, drunkenness, self-laceration and other practices - idolatry- and idolatry us called "spiritual prostitution" in Jg 8:27. 

So christendom does practice spiritism.....and spiritual prostitution and her adherents are drunk with the wine of her spiritual adultery - away from the truth as given us in the bible.

Covetousness is idolatry. Col3:5, being a slave to your belly from 16:18. "Rebelliousness is the same as the sin of divination" . Pushing ahead presumptuously the same as magical power and idolatry" 1 Sam 15:22, 23.

So if you still think that the world empire of false religion (which includes christendom) is not a spiritual harlot - think again. 

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@Arauna I know that some amount of members of "christian" and muslim religions practise spiritism and sorcery, just as some amount of their members are stealing, sexually immoral and commiting other various sins. But the point is that both those religions in general condemn those sins including spiritism. 

But who is the biggest proponet of moral decay in today's world? Which organized group or society has been directly promoting sin the past 100 year? That would be the mother of all disgusting things. Can you tell which society has been spearheading to normalize homosexuality and other disgusting sins the past 100 years? 

It is surely not the religions. But they have to different degrees also fallen for the presure from Babylon the Great.

So the religions are not the source of all the disgusting things but, they have fallen victims to Babylon the Great to different degrees. 

 The Bible talks about many different symbolic prostitutes. So we have to figure out what each represent. Individual christians are also warned in James 4:4:

Adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is making himself an enemy of God.

An other characteristic of Babylon the Great is according to Rev. 18:24 that it is the cause of wars and killings of christians: "Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

Well during our life time we have not seen any serious mass killings of christians in the Western world. But the Revelation book warns that an hour of testing will finally come over the whole earth. Rev 3:10. Then it will become more evident who and what Babylon the Great represent. 

But knowing who are stoking war today help us already to identify Babylon the Great. Check this article published  yesterday on a news site for private investors. That contains clues to identify Babylon the Great.

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/war-pigs-are-finally-revealing-themselves-and-just-beginning

 

1 hour ago, Tom Henry said:

 Paul never meet Jesus personally. 

Acts 26:14 "And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice say to me in the Hebrew language: ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? To keep kicking against the goads* makes it hard for you.’ 15  But I said: ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And the Lord said: ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16  But rise and stand on your feet. This is why I have appeared to you, to choose you as a servant and a witness both of things you have seen and things I will make you see respecting me.+ 17  And I will rescue you from this people and from the nations, to whom I am sending you+ 18  to open their eyes,+ to turn them from darkness+ to light+ and from the authority of Satan+ to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins+ and an inheritance among those sanctified by their faith in me.’"

Tom Herry what do you say about that?

Here some more interesting things conserning apostle Paul.

Galatians 1:11  For I want you to know, brothers, that the good news I declared to you is not of human origin;+ 12  for neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it was through a revelation by Jesus Christ.

Galatians 2:8 for the one who empowered Peter for an apostleship to those who are circumcised also empowered me for those who are of the nations

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12 hours ago, Kosonen said:

both those religions in general condemn those sins

Christian do not condemn Halloween for example.  The teaching of jinn that can assault women is part of the religion....of Islam.

Which part of society is the most disgusting to God? Is it not the part of society which was supposed to represent him and teach their subjects about him? 

 

 

12 hours ago, Kosonen said:

James 4:4:

The bible talks about spiritual prostitution or adultery in only one way - those who are not faithful to God. The scripture  you quoted above actually proves my point because it proves that friendship with the world is adultery against God.  Jehovah is consistent in his use of imagery....... otherwise we would be thrown about not understanding much.

12 hours ago, Kosonen said:

during our life time we have not seen any serious mass killings of christians in the Western world.

Think again,  Buddhists are killing muslims, Hindus are killing muslims and Christian's because they eat beef, muslims are killing muslims when they do not agree with their brand if Islam and Christian's are all going to war when their governments send them to kill.  The blood of many is historically on the hands of religions of the world. Soon they will kill all who profess christs randsom.

At present a genocide is going on in Africa and middle east - of christians....... and it is not even covered in the press. Boko Haram, Al Shabaab etc is murdering 60 to 100 every day. ISIS is not completely broken and neither is Taliban........ religion has a lot to answer for before Jehovah. They are covered in blood.

 

12 hours ago, Kosonen said:

holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

Religion has been the cause of destruction and death throughout human history...... it is not about the 7th world power..... the 7th head on the beast. .... the Anglo-American world power.  False Religion  is a separate entity -a harlot.

The link you shared is about the globalists versus the nationalists, the iron and clay.   The image of the beast, the UN is busy with globalization as we speak.   176 nations have already signed 3 agreements to remove borders and join in the global agenda of the UN. ...... nationalists are trying to fight this........ but that is about the "image of the beast".

 

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1 hour ago, Kosonen said:

Then it will become more evident who and what Babylon the Great represent. 

It didn't go over very well, but some time ago I tried to get some comments on whether it was more likely that "Rome" in Revelation was a symbol of "the world." In other words, this system of things. That would include the economic sectors, the political/nationalistic sectors, even the religious sectors, including the world's immorality, greed, commercialism, fashions, entertainment, etc. -- all sectors that can be tainted with worldly motivations represented as under the power of Satan. In other words "the spirit of this world" and "the desire of this world."

This seemed to fit James, Peter and 1 John.

(James 1:27) . . .The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world.

(James 4:4, 5) . . .Adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is making himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that for no reason the scripture says: “The spirit that has taken up residence within us keeps enviously longing

(1 Peter 2:11, 12) . . .Beloved, I urge you as foreigners and temporary residents to keep abstaining from fleshly desires, which wage war against you. 12 Maintain your conduct fine among the nations,. . .

(1 Peter 5:8, 9) . . .Your adversary, the Devil, walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour someone. 9 But take your stand against him, firm in the faith, knowing that the same kind of sufferings are being experienced by the entire association of your brothers in the world.

(2 Peter 1:4) . . .having escaped from the world’s corruption produced by wrong desire.

(2 Peter 2:20) . . .Certainly if after escaping from the defilements of the world . . .

(1 John 2:15-17) . . .Do not love either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire,. . .

(1 John 4:3-5) . . .Furthermore, this is the antichrist’s inspired statement that you have heard was coming, and now it is already in the world. 4 You originate with God, little children, and you have conquered them, because the one who is in union with you is greater than the one who is in union with the world. 5 They originate with the world; that is why they speak what originates with the world and the world listens to them.

If Rome represents "the world," the same world that Christians have conquered, then Babylon the Great appears to be riding on this "world" "the one who is in union with the world," apparently related to the antichrist, which was already in the world (many of them, in fact) and therefore these "antichrists" suffer a great loss with the demise of their "lover" -- the world.

I don't see why this would not at least include the religious sectors of the world, who are anti-Christ, by so quickly turning against his teachings whenever the world's desires get wrapped up in the desires of the religious sectors.

I see a couple of more specific solutions that would have made sense to the first audiences of Revelation and continue to make sense to us today by making use of the same symbols. But I'm not pushing for a specific solution here.

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@JW Insider 

Nice that you are ready to reexamine what really Babylon the Great represent.

A real eye-opener for me were all the verses in Revelation 17 and 18 that say it is a "great city".

This statement is repeated many times. So in order not to make things complicated let's begin with that, a litteral great city.

 Revelation 17:18 And the woman+ whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.”

Revelation 18:10 They will stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment and say: ‘Too bad, too bad, you great city,+ Babylon you strong city, because in one hour your judgment has arrived!’

Revelation 18:15 The merchants ……..16  saying: ‘Too bad, too bad, the great city, clothed with fine linen, purple, and scarlet and richly adorned with gold ornaments, precious stones, and pearls,+17  because in one hour such great riches have been devastated!’“And every ship captain and every seafaring person and sailors and all those who make a living by the sea stood at a distance 18  and cried out as they looked at the smoke from her burning and said: ‘What city is like the great city?’ 19 They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and mourning, and said: ‘Too bad, too bad, the great city, in which all those who had ships at sea became rich from her wealth, because in one hour she has been devastated!’

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On 1/10/2020 at 10:22 PM, Kosonen said:

much similarity there is with ancient Ninive and Babylon the Great. I

Just wanted to add this: ancient Nineveh was started at time of Nimrod..... and it followed the same religion ( away from jehovah) as Babylon.  

At the time of Peleg as mentioned in a scripture quoted earlier,  the world became divided in worship for jehovah , or against.

Gen 10: "Just like Nimʹrod, a mighty hunter in opposition to Jehovah.”  10 The beginning of his kingdom was Baʹbel, Eʹrech, Acʹcad, and Calʹneh, in the land of Shiʹnar.  11 From that land he went into As·syrʹi·a and built Ninʹe·veh......."  and other cities in what later became Assyria.  Apart from being a warlike place, Nineveh had  it in common that it was a city which rebelled against worship of jehovah in time of Nimrod.  

This city was established AGAINST instructions of Jehovah to spread over the earth after the flood.

On 1/10/2020 at 10:22 PM, Kosonen said:

could instead be a prostitute whose owner is god of this world, Satan.

Nineveh was a spiritual prostitute.  God would not call someone a spiritual prostitute if they were unfaithful to Satan. They must have strayed from Jehovahs worship.

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Rome" in Revelation was a symbol of "the world." I

Rome is quoted in Islam in its eschatology. It symbolizes the western "infidelity."  (Islam also uses this symbolism because Mohammad had the bible read to him and spoke to Talmudic Jews all the time while he was a merchant.)

This is why I find the alliance between Islam (part of harlot and Babylon the great)  and Russia so interesting. Alliances in Iran, Turkey, assyria..... and Turkey sees itself as a power in the Mediterranean. Religious (theocracies) with Russia.  

As matter of fact Arabia, Israel and US is another interesting alliance.... because of the incompatibility of the religions. So when the image of beast turns against religion, will we see these alliances suddenly break up?  ..... Or will the power of UNand its allies  be so strong to keep them together for a while so they will be able to call out peace and security?

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