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I Almost Wish That There Was More Public Kickback From WT Regarding CSA Charges


TrueTomHarley

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Quote @TrueTomHarley  ( talking about me )  “the problem is that you are too stupid to read more than two sentences!” 

And " anything is over your head! "   Tom doesn't stop does he :) 

Well I read both of the previous long comments you wrote, hence I know that they said nothing of importance. You were just bashing on at those people that have proof of how bad the GB and JW Org really is. 

But you and others tend to lump all those who find fault with the GB and the Org, together. You do it for convenience of course, as an excuse, because you cannot justify many things the GB and Org do. 

You tell me I'm too stupid. That's just you trying to make me appear stupid.  Just like the GB tried to say it was apostates telling lies about CSA. You say the same thing about me, about anything on the web, about anything that shows up the GB and it's Org for what it really is. 

Another quote from dear Tom  "  if that statement is in the Shepherd the Flock book not meant for general distribution, then I would not quote from it even if I had read it. "

No Tom, Elders love to keep secrets from the 'boots on the ground' congregants. It's the only way of keeping people in the Org. To tell them the truth would be like asking them to leave JW Org. 

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If there has been kickback on manipulation and ‘control’ charges, and if there has been kickback on ‘flip-flopping’ charges, then I would like to see kickback on charges that Witnesses ‘cover up’ chil

JWI wants nothing of the sort. But if you are going to do one of these things where you go on an attack with false "facts" again, then someone ought to point out at least a couple of them. First

In many court cases world wide, the WTB&T Society has represented, under oath, that all Jehovah's Witnesses are ordained ministers, and are therefore clergy. ... even the newly baptized 8 yea

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1 hour ago, Witness said:

Can you see the WT leaders practicing anything that Jesus stated in these scriptures?

Sorry, but the answer is yes, I have seen most Watchtower leaders practicing love among one another, especially to the flock, and also practicing love to those we might otherwise consider our enemies when it comes to a preaching, and giving of our time to take a message of hope to them.

The kinds of elders or leaders who end up being involved in disfellowshipping those who disagree with doctrine are only working on one part of what they consider to be a Christian duty. I agree that it might show a lack of love with some, but only in that one activity, and not because most of them realize the lack of love. To most it's just a painful job that someone has to do. I know for a fact that elders sometimes cry during and after a judicial meeting. They imagine they are doing an act of sacred service.

(John 16:2) . . .Men will expel YOU from the synagogue. In fact, the hour is coming when everyone that kills YOU will imagine he has rendered a sacred service to God.

But sometimes we must forgive them, for they know not what they do. And other times, perhaps most of the time, they are doing the right thing. They ARE performing an act of sacred service. There is a scriptural basis for different versions of this practice.

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2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

At least, that's the impression JWinsider gives. He is your library to everything Watchtower.

All right, if you insist:

*** lv p. 223 [Keep Yourself In God's Love] Resolving Disputes in Business Matters ***
There are also cases in which a brother might feel compelled to countersue in order to protect himself in a lawsuit.*
If such lawsuits are pursued without a spirit of contention, they may not violate the spirit of Paul’s inspired counsel. Nonetheless, a Christian’s priority should be the sanctification of Jehovah’s name and the peace and unity of the congregation. Christ’s followers are marked first and foremost by their love, and “love . . . does not look for its own interests.”—1 Corinthians 13:4, 5; John 13:34, 35.
[Footnotes]
* In rare instances, one Christian might commit a serious crime against another—such as rape, assault, murder, or major theft. In such cases, it would not be unchristian to report the matter to the authorities, even though doing so might result in a court case or a criminal trial.

*** w05 8/1 p. 14 When Is There a Basis for Taking Offense? ***
In our time, rape is also a major crime with severe penalties. The victim has every right to report the matter to the police. In this way the proper authorities can punish the offender. And if the victim is a minor, the parents may want to initiate these actions.

*** g05 8/8 p. 9 Freedom From Fear—Is It Possible? ***
Reporting your husband’s abuse to the authorities and seeking their protection may also be an option. The Bible teaches that all must face the consequences of their actions. (Galatians 6:7) Of governmental authority, the Bible says: “It is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear.” (Romans 13:4) Assault is as much a crime at home as it is on the street. Stalking is also a crime in many countries.

*** g93 10/8 p. 9 If Your Child Is Abused ***
Some legal experts advise reporting the abuse to the authorities as soon as possible. In some lands the legal system may require this. But in other places the legal system may offer little hope of successful prosecution.

What, though, when the abuser is one’s own beloved mate? Sad to say, many women fail to take decisive action. To be sure, it is never easy to face the ugly reality of a mate who is a child abuser. Emotional ties, and even financial dependency, can be overwhelmingly strong. The wronged wife may also realize that taking action could cost her husband his family, his job, his reputation. The hard truth is, though, that he may just be reaping what he has sown. (Galatians 6:7) Innocent children, on the other hand, stand to lose much more if they are not believed and protected. Their whole future is at stake. They do not have the resources that adults have. Trauma can scar and shape them adversely for life. They are the ones who need and deserve tender treatment.—Compare Genesis 33:13, 14.
Parents must therefore make every reasonable effort to protect their children! Many responsible parents choose to seek out professional help for an abused child. Just as you would with a medical doctor, make sure that any such professional will respect your religious views. Help your child rebuild his or her shattered self-esteem through a steady outpouring of parental love.

*** g91 2/8 p. 11 What Comfort for the Victims? ***
Realizing the pain that such loss causes, many authorities work for laws or conditions that might reduce the shockingly high number of casualties each year. For instance, one official pointed to character weaknesses in those guilty of drinking and driving and suggested setting up reporting centers for them where, through education and job and drug counseling, they ‘could be reinforced and strengthened’ to overcome their weaknesses.
What Is Really Needed?
However desirable this may be, no human or human agency can erase the hurt inflicted on the victims, nor can humans bring back the dead. What is needed to undo all the damage is far more than what humans can provide. What is really needed is an entirely different arrangement in the world, one that would not be based on today’s selfish and destructive ‘thrills at any cost’ concepts that take so many lives.

*** w91 11/1 p. 5 Is Vengeance Wrong? ***
Should a crime victim, then, sit back and passively take the abuse? Not necessarily. When our person or property is violated, there are authorities to turn to. You may wish to call the police. At work, go to the supervisor. At school, you may wish to see the principal. That is one reason they are there—to uphold justice. The Bible tells us that governmental authorities are “God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath upon the one practicing what is bad.” (Romans 13:4) Justice requires that the government exercise its authority, stop wrongdoing, and punish the wrongdoers.

*** g00 7/8 p. 29 Watching the World ***
Reported cases of child abuse in Japan soared 30 percent during fiscal 1998, compared with the previous year, says Asahi Evening News. Experts attribute this to “mounting stress borne by mothers, many of whom were carrying the entire burden of rearing their children,” as well as to “a heightened awareness among the general public” of their responsibility to report abuse or neglect.

*** g93 4/8 p. 31 Victims of Pedophile Priests Speak Out ***
“DURING the past decade, some 400 Roman Catholic priests have been reported to church or civil authorities for sexual abuse of children,” according to U.S.News & World Report. Recently, a national gathering of survivors of such abuse was held near Chicago, Illinois. Many spoke openly of how they had been victimized by pedophile priests. . . . suing six religious orders for $1.4 billion in damages.
Interestingly, though, the aforementioned U.S. attorney, who represents 150 victims of pedophile priests in 23 states, says that he has never yet had a client who was eager to go to court. Each one first tried to seek justice “within the pastoral context of the church.” NCR concludes: “Survivors go to the courts, it appears, not as a first resort, but as a last resort.”

*** w97 12/1 p. 31 Is All Complaining Bad? ***
Did you note from the above examples that complaints should be made in the proper spirit and to the proper authority? For example, it would be pointless to complain to the police about a heavy tax burden or to a judge about one’s physical ailments. So, too, it would be inappropriate to complain about some situation either inside or outside the congregation to a person that had no authority or ability to help.
In most lands today, there are courts and other appropriate authorities that can be appealed to in hopes of gaining a measure of relief. When the student mentioned in the beginning of the article took his complaint to court, the judges ruled in his favor, and he was reinstated with an apology from the school. Similarly, the female worker who was sexually harassed found relief through a working-women’s union. She received an apology from the school board. Her employers took steps to stop sexual harassment.

*** g94 3/22 p. 29 Watching the World ***
But the paper adds that these phony confessions “demonstrate the real confusion, inadequacy, and indulgence of a good part of the 36,000 Italian priests, who often seem more interested in sexual rather than social sins.” Pino Nicotri, one of the writers, found that of the 49 priests to whom he “confessed,” only one refused him absolution and told him to report his crime to the authorities. Commented La Repubblica: “As far as the others are concerned, either bribes are not a sin, or else it is useless to go to a judge, since what counts is pardon from God.”

*** g73 4/8 p. 30 Watching the World ***
The FBI says that 85 out of every 100,000 female residents of major U.S. cities are rape victims. Rape also appears to be the least reported crime. Many women do not want to discuss their case with male policemen or otherwise risk the possible shame of revealing they were raped. Newsweek observes: “The conservative estimate is that a phenomenal 75 per cent of all sexual attacks on women go entirely unreported to the authorities.”

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2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Understandable and sad at the same time. Why, I can see you not wanting to misrepresent the flock book like ex-witnesses usually do here.

I don’t have the book. I could get it, but I haven’t. I once served as an elder, but that was 20 years ago. I know precious few in Bethel and I keep up with nobody there.

An advantage to all this is that I can come across as a regular person. Another reason that I have been slow to leave the open forum for the closed one—and would not if there was more of a range of personalities here—is that I don’t like to be just singing to the choir. I like the challenge of discussing mature Witness topics, such as submission to authority, before people who find the notion very strange because it does not reflect the way the world is today.

Many Witnesses are not much good at speaking with non-Witnesses without going into ‘preaching mode.’ I even had someone shush me upon spotting the RING internet doorbell. “What! Do you think I’m telling dirty jokes here?” I said. “I hope he does hear me talking about regular things because then he will know that I am a regular person.”

I will say, however—and this is only for 4Jah’s consumption—that after I served as a congregation elder I was whisked away to Bethel where I am now such a high-up secretive honcho that even the Bethelites you see on TV do not know me. They sense my presence, of course, at times the force is quite strong, but they can’t quite identify me in my deep state top assignment.

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

At least, that's the impression JWinsider gives. He is your library to everything Watchtower.

You’ve got it all wrong, CC. I am his father and if he ever successfully completes the assignments I’ve given him—I never saw a pupil drag his feet the way he does!—we will rule together

 

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6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I agree that it might show a lack of love with some, but only in that one activity, and not because most of them realize the lack of love. To most it's just a painful job that someone has to do. I know for a fact that elders sometimes cry during and after a judicial meeting. They imagine they are doing an act of sacred service.

Only one activity? (although there are more) The very activity that brings people to consider suicide?  The very activity that brings WT’s sins to light – before the world’s eyes? The very activity that breaks up families?  We’re not talking about just a few people who have suffered from this “one” activity, but thousands.  I’m not referring to gross sin such as murder, where that someone that should be in jail.  Or pedophilia, where that someone, should also be in jail (but we know in innumerable cases, is not).    

It is men, unrighteously judging men as in the case of Ray Franz – one of thousands who met with the same outcome for rejecting lies.  Who is at the root of this judgment, this decree, but those who set the guidelines for it?  Rev 13:11,12

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

John 16:2) . . .Men will expel YOU from the synagogue. In fact, the hour is coming when everyone that kills YOU will imagine he has rendered a sacred service to God.

John 16:3,4 – “They will do such things because they have not known the Father or meI have told you this, so that when their time comes you will remember that I warned you about them.

Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them  Matt 7:15,16a

We recognize them by their teachings, their human doctrines, that always fail. Jesus warned of those who would carry out John 16:2, and that they are “false prophets” found “among” his anointed ones – his “elect”. 

Another way it is said,

 “For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect”  Matt 24:24

The love shown for one another in the organization is conditional.  It is not the love that Christ taught through his teachings. 

"If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?"   Matt 5:46,47

Only through the complete anointed Body of Christ's priests, would love be manifested by the utilization of their gifts of Holy Spirit.  They would be teaching the people God’s laws in Christ.  Mal 2:7; 1 Pet 2:5,9; Rom chapter 12.  They would not be removed for disagreeing with the GB.  Matt 24:48-51; Rev 13:11,12,15   If the Body was working as one under Christ, showing love and respect toward each other, everyone would benefit from that love and guidance. 

But, instead, a huge army of “Gentile” elders stumble over their judgments and cause families to be crushed. Joel 1:3-9; Rev 9:7-10  It would be disingenuous to realize this, and then dismiss it by saying, “but sometimes we must forgive them”, and that it is an act of sacred service, a “Christian duty”.   No!  Not at all.  It is blasphemy.  It is blindness to Christ’s teachings and God's standards toward His priesthood.   Sacred service is to be offered by God’s priests of His Temple, not by those who claim to “represent” them; trampling them into submission. Ezek 44:6-9; Matt 24:15,16; 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1,2  For those elders who cry, I hope beyond hope, that they wake up, and remove themselves from the organization. They are working against their conscience, why?  Out of fear of losing status?  Out of fear of losing family?  Why do they cry?

God sees all of this.  He sees victims of a prejudiced justice system that destroys.  Jesus knew his people would come against an authority that would unrighteously judge them. Satan is behind it, and God allows it.  Luke 22:31; 2 Thess 2:9-12

I’ve quoted this before, and I remember once you also did, I suppose when warning of what the organization should not be like, but correct me if I'm wrong.  

“A dispute also arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25 Jesus said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles (“Gentile” elder body) lord it over them (over  JWs); and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors (GB). 26 But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves.” 

To be “like that” obviously, is not based on Christ’s love.  But, it is “like that” – exactly like that – in the organization.  Luke 22:24-27  The “Gentile” elder kings lord it over JWs, and those who exercise authority over the elders, are the members of the GB - “Benefactors”. 

People in the world are not blind to the organization’s hypocrisy.  It is the majority of JWs who refuse to see it.  For those few who do see it, one must ask why they support hypocrisy. 

 Beasts are known to destroy.  Dan 7:23; 8:10; Rev 13:1,2,5-8,11,12,14-18

 

 

 http://pearl-sign.blogspot.com/

 

 

 

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Quote @TrueTomHarley  " I will say, however—and this is only for 4Jah’s consumption—that after I served as a congregation elder I was whisked away to Bethel where I am now such a high-up secretive honcho that even the Bethelites you see on TV do not know me. They sense my presence, of course, at times the force is quite strong, but they can’t quite identify me in my deep state top assignment."

Why does Elder Tom find this necessary ?  I find it funny of course. Funny that he is so 'concerned' about me. 

BUT, if anyone cannnot see why Tom needs to keep doing this then you are blind. 

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2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

g93 4/8 p. 31

g=Awake! (g refers to fact that Awake! started out as the Golden Age)

93 is the Year, then 4/8 means month and day. (Awake! in those days came out on the 8th and 22nd of every month)

So it's the April 8, 1993 Awake! magazine, page 31.

w=Watchtower, which works the same way, except that the Watchtower, until very recently, came out on the 1st and 15th of every month.

lv=Keep Yourself In God's Love, a publication that was released in 2014.

You can find the full list on the Watchtower Library "CD" which can be downloaded from jw.org.

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20 hours ago, César Chávez said:

In rare instances, one Christian might commit a serious crime against another—such as rape, assault, murder, or major theft. In such cases, it would not be unchristian to report the matter to the authorities, even though doing so might result in a court case or a criminal trial. 2009

"...it would not be unchristian to report the matter to the authorities.."

All people sometimes need advice, support, opinions on some of the things they are facing. It is evident from this segment that the WT Organization has raised generations of members who seeking permission for some activity in their own lives because they do not dare to make decisions on their own, without organization, which perhaps may "embarrass God and his visible organization."
Would it be interesting to find out how that came about? Why can't members exist without their leaders and their instructions, and why can't leaders stop deciding for their members?

 

20 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

In my ‘defense,’ if that statement is in the Shepherd the Flock book not meant for general distribution, then I would not quote from it even if I had read it. It is a little silly, I know, to avoid what others have already put out there, and I don’t criticize anyone doing it with good motive. But I am still old fashioned that way and inclined to respect ‘confidential talk.’

:))) general distribution

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6 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

In any organization of any sort, there is always information not meant for general distribution. That does not mean that it is thereby the ‘smoking gun.’

BUT all JWs are supposed to be equal. No clergy class or all clergy class .  All brothers. 

No hierarchy. And it's supposed to be 'the truth'.  So why would you need hidden information ? 

After all its not supposed to be an organisation of the world is it ? 

But remember Tom the whole Elders book is available to read online so we know it is a 'smoking gun'. 

 

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