What should we believe, what should we question, Bible Canon

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

What should we believe and what should we question ? What should we just accept and what should we research ? 

How deep should we dig in order to find truth ? 

How do we really know what TRUTH is ?

Yes I'm asking serious questions and trying to dig very deeply

THE BIBLE CANON.

Now here is a lovely place to start digging. And here is a lovely place to ask ourselves, Should we just accept the Bible Canon as it is ?

“Canon” is a Greek word meaning “rule” or “measuring stick.” So the Bible canon is the 'accepted' 66 writings that the Bible holds.

Should we accept this canon or question it ? Do you know that many 'Bible scholars' did not and do not agree on the Bible canon ?

140 C. E. 

Marcion rejected the Old Testament, along with any writings that might reinforce views other than his own. He developed a list of books he considered acceptable: portions of the Gospel of Luke, ten of Paul’s letters, plus a letter purportedly from Paul to the Alexandrians. This list is known as the Marcion Canon. 

 

After Marcion and Montanus, lists of New Testament books begin to appear. One of the first was The Muratorian Fragment. It was discovered among the Vatican’s sacred documents by historian Ludovico Antonio Muratori in 1740 and dates to about A.D. 190. The fragment is damaged. The portion we possess begins with “the third book of the Gospel is that according to Luke.” We assume the first and second Gospels to be Matthew and Mark. The fragment lists John, Acts, all of Paul’s letters, James, 1-2 John, Jude and the Revelation of John. It also includes the Revelation of Peter, the Wisdom of Solomon and (“to be used in private, but not public worship”) the Shepherd of Hermas.

 

In 367, Athanasius, the bishop of Alexandria, wrote an Easter letter that contained all twenty-seven books of our present New Testament. In 393 the Synod of Hippo affirmed our current New Testament, and in 397 the Council of Carthage published the same list.

 

But :-

 

In the first and second centuries after Christ, many, many writings and epistles were circulating among the Christians. Some of the churches were using books and letters in their services that were definitely spurious. Gradually the need to have a definite list of the inspired Scriptures became apparent. Heretical movements were rising, each one choosing its own selected Scriptures, including such documents as the Gospel of Thomas, the Shepherd of Hermas, the Apocalypse of Peter, and the Epistle of Barnabas.

 

The Council of Carthage established the orthodox New Testament canon in 397 AD; it was upheld at the Council of Trent in 1545. By the way, Protestants and Catholics are in agreement with their use of the same New Testament.

However, were any of those men true servants of God through Christ ?  Were they guided by God / Holy Spirit ?

The scriptures talk about men entering into the 'congregation' / organisation that would mislead many and not act is a truthful way.  

 

A small point but of interest, is in Paul's Letter to the Colossians Ch 4 v 16 

"And when this letter has been read among you, arrange for it also to be read in the congregation of the La·o·di·ceʹans and for you also to read the one from La·o·di·ceʹa. "

 

Here we read that Paul mentions his letter to the congregation of Laodicea, and a little bit of research will find this letter. 

To the Laodiceans

 

1 Paul, an apostle not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ, to the brethren who are of Laodicea. 2 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

20 And cause [this letter] to be read to the Colossians and that of the Colossians to you.

 

There is not much in the letter to Laodicea but, if the translation I've found is correct then it is one of Paul's letters. And it was important enough to Paul to mention in both letters Colossians and Laodiceans to read both to both congregations.

 

So, why is it not in the Bible canon ? 

 

At this point i must thank @JW Insider for his work and for his giving me much information concerning other writings of 'Scripture' and history of Bible times. Thank you. 

 

I was not aware, A, that so many other 'writings of scripture' had been written, B, that so many still exist and are available to read online. 

 

But this poses a question. If we believe that God, through Holy Spirit, has kept 'His written word' 'alive' and available for all to read, then who has kept all those other 'writings of scripture' available for all to read ? and why ?

 

How much should we investigate and how much should we just accept ? 

 

The Bible Canon is just a starting point. We could follow up with, Do we accept the translation we have or should we try to compare it to the original Hebrew and Greek scriptures ? 

How close to the original Hebrew and Greek can we get ?

What does God and Christ expect of us ? Do they expect us to dig deeper than just reading the translation of the Bible that we have ? 

 

[Kosonen]

12 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Do they expect us to dig deeper than just reading the translation of the Bible that we have?

Hi 4Jah2me,

According to these scriptures it is very good to examine scriptures to make sure. I check very often interlinear translations to see if the New world translation translates correctly.

1Thessalonians 5:21 Make sure of all things;

Acts 17:11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thes·sa·lo·niʹca, for they accepted the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. 

[Srecko Sostar]

You made excellent topic !

13 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

In 367, Athanasius, the bishop of Alexandria, wrote an Easter letter that contained all twenty-seven books of our present New Testament. In 393 the Synod of Hippo affirmed our current New Testament, and in 397 the Council of Carthage published the same list.

 

But :-

 

In the first and second centuries after Christ, many, many writings and epistles were circulating among the Christians. Some of the churches were using books and letters in their services that were definitely spurious. Gradually the need to have a definite list of the inspired Scriptures became apparent.

"Gradually the need to have a definite list of the inspired Scriptures became apparent."

How much reasonable is to expect and believe that "uninspired" people made selection of "inspired" scriptures?

How much is reasonable is to expect and believe that all these "gifts from spirit" described in Bible books, and in 1st century especially, are unique ONLY for past period. When Bible speaking about time when "miracle gifts" will stop and disappear why we conclude how that was stop in the long past (1st century), and will be again in a far future? (Or not so far, but before 1914 generation end, die :)) )

And of course, what of writings are truly inspired by God, and what was just history (true or little made up)?

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

4 hours ago, Kosonen said:

Hi 4Jah2me,

According to these scriptures it is very good to examine scriptures to make sure. I check very often interlinear translations to see if the New world translation translates correctly.

1Thessalonians 5:21 Make sure of all things;

Acts 17:11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thes·sa·lo·niʹca, for they accepted the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. 

@Kosonen  Thank you for your reply. However the plot deepens :-

The Book of Acts or Acts of the Apostles.

The NWT has it that the writing of  Acts was 'completed' c.61 

However looking online I find this :-

Acts was apparently written in Rome, perhaps between ad 70 and 90, though some think a slightly earlier date is also possible.

And this :-

Acts and the Gospel of Luke make up a two-part work, Luke–Acts, by the same anonymous author, usually dated to around 80–90 AD.

So we already have questions as to When was the Acts of the Apostles written ? 

This also leads to another question, one which i have raised before. 

You have quoted Acts 17 v 11.

" Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thes·sa·lo·niʹca, for they accepted the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. "

Now here's the rub. Exactly what 'scriptures' were they examining ? 

Surely they only had the Hebrew writings ? A. Because not all the Greek writings had been written. B. Because the Greek writings that had been written would not yet have been gathered into a 'collection'.  

One also wonders if the Apostles would have carried around a 'bundle of scrolls' to read from ? Or would only have had reference in synagogues where the copies of scrolls (Hebrew Scriptures) would have been kept. Hence :-

Acts 17 v 10 

 Immediately by night the brothers sent both Paul and Silas to Be·roeʹa. On arriving, they went into the synagogue of the Jews.

( I've always presumed that the Apostles spoke from memory whilst being inspired of God's Holy spirit. ) 

This brings another question. Regarding Acts 17 v 11 " carefully examining the Scriptures daily "   Would the Bereans / Boreans / Beroeans  have had access to the Hebrew scrolls daily ?  Were the Synagogues left open for anyone to go into to examine the scrolls ?

If the scrolls were guarded by the Jews, would Christians have had access ? 

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Hello @Srecko Sostar Thank you, and i can see that you also are looking deeper into spiritual things. 

Quote "How much is reasonable is to expect and believe that all these "gifts from spirit" described in Bible books, and in 1st century especially, are unique ONLY for past period. 

I agree with you, and I feel that inspiration from God's holy spirit is needed now. 

Quote "And of course, what of writings are truly inspired by God, and what was just history (true or little made up)? "

Have you seen the list of writings that @JW Insider kindly supplied on my other recent topic ?

It will take me many months to even just browse all of them.  Where i have started to look it has caused questions for me. 

I have a fear that many people join CCJW / JW Org, so that they do not have to think for themselves. 

But on leaving that 'situation' one has a choice. One can go back into the world, or, one can seek spiritual things. 

I do firmly believe that God, through Christ, will give spiritual inspiration to the true Anointed sometime in the near future. It would seem unfair ( to me ) that God and Christ would expect humans to unravel truth from lies, and to be able to completely work out Bible prophecies without Holy Spirit for guidance. 

 

 

[Leander H. McNelly]

45 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Quote "How much is reasonable is to expect and believe that all these "gifts from spirit" described in Bible books, and in 1st century especially, are unique ONLY for past period. 

The fundamental of first century Christianity is spiritual growth, faith, love and obedience. It doesn't need rocket science to implement those factors in daily life. If you question peoples motives, that's one thing, if you question scripture as it stands with the 66 books, then you question God and blaming him for not making humanity perfect before your eyes and standards. However, look at thy self first!

45 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Have you seen the list of writings that @JW Insider kindly supplied on my other recent topic ?

It will take me many months to even just browse all of them.  Where i have started to look it has caused questions for me. 

Since when has a person not in good standing with their religion have any good advice or made a worthwhile contribution to that org? This world be a good application for the blind leading the blind.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Unfortunately people like @Leander H. McNelly aka Billy the Kid, can be expected to lower the tone of a spiritual conversation. 

So he is best ignored. 

[Srecko Sostar]

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Have you seen the list of writings that @JW Insider kindly supplied on my other recent topic ?

Would you please give me a link of the topic

[JW Insider]

On 2/27/2020 at 2:50 PM, 4Jah2me said:

What should we believe and what should we question ?

A very good question. Love believes all things. Of course this doesn't mean we shouldn't also question all things. Believe everything as possibly right, and question everything as possibly wrong. But questioning everything would require every one of us to become scholars. But relying on most scholars can be dangerous too. Most modern scholars these days are not faithful to the Bible as God's word. One excuse is to question the canon itself, and what scholars do accept as canonical for the early Christians is still not considered "inspired."

But some common sense that all of us should have will lead us in the right direction. A major concern of yours has been that only a modern-day anointing by holy spirit will explain everything to us, and you always tend to push this off into the future, although you recognize that it is needed now. The person you know as BTK and whom many old-timers here recognize as A.S. has already hit upon one of the keys to recognizing where this "holy spirit" can be found.

7 hours ago, Leander H. McNelly said:

The fundamental of first century Christianity is spiritual growth, faith, love and obedience. It doesn't need rocket science to implement those factors in daily life.

The "Word of God" is not an expression in the Bible that refers to a specific set of 66 books. When we say the Word of God, we often mean "the Bible" but that's not the use of the expression in the Bible itself. Also, the expression "the spirit" does not always refer to God's active force acting like a separate entity to inspire perfect knowledge. In fact, if one reads Romans and Galatians for example, you can see that Christians have a choice of accepting the spirit or not, and that even those of us who do not consider ourselves "anointed" must strive for the same measure of this holy spirit as those who consider themselves "anointed." (It's quite probable that Allen Smith/Billy the Kid actually does consider himself to be anointed based on several things he has said concerning this topic, but that doesn't change the primary point.)

In Galatians, Paul speaks with the same terms he uses in Romans about the "anointing" of holy spirit. He speaks in both Romans and Galatians about the purpose and effect of this anointing. But in Galatians it's clear that the holy spirit must have the same effect in the lives of all Christians. To this extent, all of us must be implanted with the seed of holy spirit. And what grows from that seed of holy spirit counteracts the works of "the flesh." The holy spirit makes certain fruits grow in all of us. Note:

(Galatians 3:29-5:26) . . .Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s [seed] offspring, heirs with reference to a promise. .. . . 3 Likewise, we too, when we were children, were enslaved by the elementary things of the world. 4 But when the full limit of the time arrived, God sent his Son, who was born of a woman and who was under law, 5 that he might release by purchase those under law, so that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Now because you are sons, God has sent the spirit of his Son into our hearts, . . . 22 For example, it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the servant girl and one by the free woman; 23 but the one by the servant girl was actually born through natural descent and the other by the free woman through a promise. 24 These things may be taken as a symbolic drama; for these women mean two covenants, the one from Mount Siʹnai, which bears children for slavery and which is Haʹgar. 25 Now Haʹgar means Siʹnai, a mountain in Arabia, and she corresponds with the Jerusalem today, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. . . . 31 So, brothers, we are children, not of a servant girl, but of the free woman. ^{[Chap 5]} For such freedom Christ set us free. Therefore, stand firm, and do not let yourselves be confined again in a yoke of slavery. . . . 5 For our part, we are by spirit eagerly waiting for the hoped-for righteousness resulting from faith. . . . 13 You were called to freedom, brothers; only do not use this freedom as an opportunity to pursue fleshly desires, but through love slave for one another. 14 For the entire Law has been fulfilled in one commandment, namely: “You must love your neighbor as yourself.” . . . 16 But I say, Keep walking by spirit and you will carry out no fleshly desire at all. 17 For the flesh is against the spirit in its desire, and the spirit against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you do not do the very things you want to do. 18 Furthermore, if you are being led by spirit, you are not under law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are plainly seen, . . . 22 On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control. . . . 25 If we are living by spirit, let us also go on walking orderly by spirit. 26 Let us not become egotistical, stirring up competition with one another, envying one another.

So the primary purpose of God sending the spirit into the hearts of Christians, a kind of anointing by holy spirit, is so that we will produce the fruitage that grows from that spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness and self-control. LHM highlighted love and faith and added obedience. This is appropriate too, as obedience to one another is a way of walking orderly by spirit. Paul used the expression, "slave for one another" which is also a recognition that we should always be prepared to accept orders from one another, as long as they are in line with love and faith.

My point is that by thinking about what this "spirit" produces, we can use common sense to know what we should accept as "inspired." We can see how all of it fits the core teachings that fit the spirit of Christ Jesus.

Identifying books to be included in the inspired canon seems to be simpler process that others might be overthinking. It's based on some expected principles and a little common sense. To keep from going on too long, I'll pick up on that point in the next post.

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

It's quite probable that Allen Smith/Billy the Kid actually does consider himself to be anointed based on several things he has said...

I will know it is so when the year text is from the Book of BuffaloSpringfield:

“Step out of line, the man comes to take you away.”

[Srecko Sostar]

46 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

My point is that by thinking about what this "spirit" produces, we can use common sense to know what we should accept as "inspired." We can see how all of it fits the core teachings that fit the spirit of Christ Jesus.

Identifying books to be included in the inspired canon seems to be simpler process that others might be overthinking. It's based on some expected principles and a little common sense. To keep from going on too long, I'll pick up on that point in the next post.

 

48 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

So the primary purpose of God sending the spirit into the hearts of Christians, a kind of anointing by holy spirit, is so that we will produce the fruitage that grows from that spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness and self-control.

All in all, what was said and ideas/thoughts expressed in comment, giving very nice way of how to have advanced, "inspired" thinking and reasoning. You put word "inspired" on another level of meaning, for JW members to take in consideration. This is in harmony with another verse, how everything what is "good" is from God. And by that it is "inspired", in very wide meaning of the word.

This concept "confirms" G. Jackson testimony at ARC how "GB is not the only spokesperson for God" :))

[JW Insider]

When it comes to identifying writings that belong in the inspired canon, we can look to whether the writing reflects the fruitages of the spirit. We can start with what we know, and then build from there using common sense and spiritual principles.

First of all, let's say we were to accept the restrictive criteria of modern scholars who don't really care for the spiritual value of the content of scripture. Even these scholars will generally all agree that Paul was the writer of several of the letters, and since Paul wrote them, it must have been between his conversion and his death. Therefore Google would return this on a query about Paul's actual letters:

Seven letters (with consensus dates) considered genuine by most scholars:

• First Thessalonians (c. 50 AD)
• Galatians (c. 53)
• First Corinthians (c. 53–54)
• Philippians (c. 55)
• Philemon (c. 55)
• Second Corinthians (c. 55–56)
• Romans (c. 57)

Some would add another book or two, but these are considered to be a core set of Paul's writings that few would argue with. So now we could read these carefully and extrapolate that there is really nothing in Ephesians, Colossians, or 2 Thessalonians that teaches anything different from these books. And we could continue on from there. Any doctrine in those other letters conforms perfectly with the accepted letters. In fact, they could have easily grown out of combinations of writings that congregations from many places had collected from multiple real letters, real speeches, and real sayings. Just as John said of Jesus that many more scrolls could be written of things he did and said, the same could have been true of Paul, whose ministry was probably nearly 10 times longer than that of Jesus.

Of course, we also have Luke who said that there were many other Gospels about Jesus. And we have Paul already mentioning that letters might show up "as though from us [Paul and his companions]." The reason to be careful of any of these additional gospels or letters would be if they taught a different doctrine. Paul said that different doctrine should not be accepted, even if it came from an angel out of heaven. This is another way of saying that Paul knew the gospel he preached was authorized by Christ Jesus himself. His "word" or his "gospel" embodied the spirit of Christ.

So Paul's core writings can become the touchstone by which we could evaluate the rest of the Christian Greek Scriptures. (And by extension, quotes from Paul referencing the Hebrew Scriptures give us a core set of Hebrew Scritpures to do the same with if anyone were to doubt a core canon of Hebrew Scriptures.)

We know that already in the first century there were additional writings that were already beginning to represent Jesus within a different doctrinal structure. Jesus was not being accepted everywhere as a real physical person born in the line of David, who had preached, and been killed under Pontius Pilate, and had been resurrected to heaven. Some were beginning to teach an atheistic version of Jesus who had not really existed or died in a physical sense, but who merely embodied secret knowledge that only a few special teachers could explain.

But this actually helps us define the inspired canon. During Paul's life he made clear the full, necessary "gospel" and also made it clear that there were things that others might be saying that were not necessary, or even harmful to that message.

(1 Thessalonians 3:12-5:1) . . .  4 Finally, brothers, just as you received instruction from us on how you should walk in order to please God, just as you are in fact walking, we request you and appeal to you by the Lord Jesus to keep doing it more fully. 2 For you know the instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus. . . .  just as we told you previously and also strongly warned you. . . .9 However, concerning brotherly love, you do not need us to write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another. . . . 11 Make it your aim to live quietly and to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we instructed you, 12 so that you may walk decently in the eyes of people outside and not need anything. . . . 18 So keep comforting one another with these words. 5 Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you.

They needed no more doctrinal instruction. The spirit itself taught them by God how to love one another, and live decently. They needed nothing more to be written about the "times and seasons," either. There was a lot of "falsely called knowledge" being spoken about, but Paul focused on the important part of the Gospel.

(1 Corinthians 1:30-2:2) 30 But it is due to him that you are in union with Christ Jesus, who has become to us wisdom from God, also righteousness and sanctification and release by ransom, 31 so that it may be just as it is written: “The one who boasts, let him boast in Jehovah.” 2 So when I came to you, brothers, I did not come with extravagant speech or wisdom declaring the sacred secret of God to you. 2 For I decided not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ, and him executed on the stake.

After Paul, teachers would try to gain a following by creating new "knowledge" and "sacred secrets" and use human wisdom to create a Christian "philosophy" or "gnosis" even to the point of denying an actual human Christ who was impaled. It was based on Greek philosophies and human wisdom rather than wisdom from God.

But because of this development, we end up with statements about how to identify any writing from the first century that was acceptable and which ones were unacceptable. We can get to the canonicity of 1 John later, but it provides a perfectly good touchstone for identifying additional writings from the first century that were to be considered acceptable.

(1 John 4:1-6) 4 Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired statement, but test the inspired statements to see whether they originate with God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you know that the inspired statement is from God: Every inspired statement that acknowledges Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh originates with God. 3 But every inspired statement that does not acknowledge Jesus does not originate with God. Furthermore, this is the antichrist’s inspired statement that you have heard was coming, and now it is already in the world. 4 You originate with God, little children, and you have conquered them, because the one who is in union with you is greater than the one who is in union with the world. 5 They originate with the world; that is why they speak what originates with the world and the world listens to them. 6 We originate with God. Whoever comes to know God listens to us; whoever does not originate with God does not listen to us. By this we distinguish the inspired statement of truth from the inspired statement of error.

So, based on the well-attested idea that this was written by the end of the first century, it is saying that all known Christian writings up to that time were known to be "inspired" as long as they were not of the type that denied the physical, fleshly existence of Jesus Christ. This is a fairly simple criterion for first century Christian documents. No other significant doctrinal issue was competing with true Christian documents by the end of the first century. This was timely, too, because we know a lot about these gnostic beliefs from about 120 to 300 CE. Paul was in line with this same idea when he said:

(1 Corinthians 12:1-3) . . .Now concerning the spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2 You know that when you were people of the nations, you were influenced and led astray to those voiceless idols, following wherever they might lead you. 3 Now I would have you know that nobody when speaking by God’s spirit says: “Jesus is accursed!” and nobody can say: “Jesus is Lord!” except by holy spirit.

Much more to say of course, but this is a long and complex topic.