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13 hours ago, Kosonen said:

4Jah2me, perfect, if you continue like this you might be rewarded with an anointing.

I find this a strange thing to say.  None of us are "worthy" to receive an anointing.  It guarantees nothing. We can lose the "pouring out" of Holy Spirit.   Matt 7:15,16,18,19,20-22 ; Rom 5:5

Anointed are called, chosen and then found "faithful" to serve Christ.  1 Cor 1:9; 1 Pet 1:15; 2 Thess 2:13; 2 Pet 1:10; Luke 16:10; Matt 25:14,15; Rev 17:14

It is a journey of testing, purification and sanctification - a path of holiness that never ends.  Rev 22:11  

The question should be, will any of us anointed or not, be found "worthy" to receive eternal life; since all in the Kingdom will be called God's children.  

 

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When it comes to identifying writings that belong in the inspired canon, we can look to whether the writing reflects the fruitages of the spirit. We can start with what we know, and then build from th

I thought I was pointing out something that was obvious. The spirit may very well reveal a specific assignment in heaven or on earth. But it's the same spirit. Regarding Galatians 5:22, have you ever

Those of Rev 17:14  wouldn’t be there if they were not obedient to BOTH the Father and the Son. Have you read this lately? 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one

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On 2/28/2020 at 8:52 AM, 4Jah2me said:

Unfortunately people like @Leander H. McNelly aka Billy the Kid, can be expected to lower the tone of a spiritual conversation. 

So he is best ignored.

Funny, I feel the same way 4jah2me aka (John butler), to simply ignore the nuance, since there is NO spiritual conversation here, just flat outright criticism and condemnation. What spiritual academia do you see, when hate and condemnation of both ex-witnesses and present witnesses here, think along the same line toward the Org?

When scripture is misapplied and literature is taken out of context by both parties. What spiritual substance can be delivered under these conditions. That's just insulting. 😂

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11 hours ago, Witness said:

I find this a strange thing to say.  None of us are "worthy" to receive an anointing.  It guarantees nothing. We can lose the "pouring out" of Holy Spirit.   Matt 7:15,16,18,19,20-22 ; Rom 5:5

Anointed are called, chosen and then found "faithful" to serve Christ.  1 Cor 1:9; 1 Pet 1:15; 2 Thess 2:13; 2 Pet 1:10; Luke 16:10; Matt 25:14,15; Rev 17:14

It is a journey of testing, purification and sanctification - a path of holiness that never ends.  Rev 22:11  

The question should be, will any of us anointed or not, be found "worthy" to receive eternal life; since all in the Kingdom will be called God's children.  

You forgot one thing. Maintain the spiritual stance of obedience to the almighty. While anyone can receive this fine gift of the Holy Spirit, it can be lost just as quickly by NOT maintaining true to the promise made in baptism. A reference made in the gospels about it would have been better they would not have known (come to the truth).

Why, because God can read your heart. People can disguise and hide what's in their hearts, but not with God. The moment that changes to the negative, you just lost that fine gift. Anyone preaching with a tainted heart and an advocate of hate and division, does so, not in the spirit of God, but in the spirit of man.

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Quote @Leander H. McNelly  " Maintain the spiritual stance of obedience to the almighty. "

The obedience to Almighty God is through Jesus Christ, not through CCJW / JW Org / GB. 

If a person honestly feels, through prayer and deep study and meditation on God's word, that the GB and the Watchtower / JW Org are wrong, then that person has to take action to break away from that 'bad association'. 

As to the promise in baptism, the JW Org baptism is not done in accordance to scripture. You will know that of course. 

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4 hours ago, Leander H. McNelly said:

You forgot one thing. Maintain the spiritual stance of obedience to the almighty. While anyone can receive this fine gift of the Holy Spirit, it can be lost just as quickly by NOT maintaining true to the promise made in baptism. A reference made in the gospels about it would have been better they would not have known (come to the truth).

Those of Rev 17:14  wouldn’t be there if they were not obedient to BOTH the Father and the Son. Have you read this lately?

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have know my Father also. From now on you know him and have seen him.”

Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Am I with you so long a time and you have not known me, Philip? The one who has seen me has seen the Father! How can you say, ‘Show us the Father?’ 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak from myself, but the Father residing in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; but if not, believe because of the works themselves.  John 14:6-11

And this?

  “Everyone who comes to me and listens to my words and does them—I will show you what he is like: 48 he is like a man building a house, who dug and went down deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when a flood came, the river burst against that house and was not able to shake it, because it had been built well. 49 But the one who hears my words and does not do them is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation, which the river burst against, and immediately it collapsed—and the collapse of that house was great!”  Luke 6:47-49

4 hours ago, Leander H. McNelly said:

Why, because God can read your heart. People can disguise and hide what's in their hearts, but not with God. The moment that changes to the negative, you just lost that fine gift. Anyone preaching with a tainted heart and an advocate of hate and division, does so, not in the spirit of God, but in the spirit of man.

Your words could not be any more truthful about your GB.  If they set down “decrees” necessary to maintain the seamless operation of the organization; and you are expected to follow them, have you maintained “the spiritual stance of obedience to the almighty”, or have you become obedient to men’s teachings about “organization”?  How do they practice “hate and division”?  Through their malicious words against the anointed.  Through the prejudice act of disfellowshipping.  For marking one as dead, who reject the commandments of men. 

Jesus prophesied of this to happen.  If we obey Christ, we expect division to take place among our own people. Matt 24:9; 19:29; 16:25; Luke 12:51-53; Matt 5:10-12

And the Lord said,

“Because this people draw near with its mouth,
    and with its lips it honors me,
and its heart is far from me,
    and their fear of me is a commandment of men that has been taught,…

 

The JW heart, the foundation of their very soul, has men’s faulty doctrine harbored within it, and they keep drinking it in. Rev 8:10,11  To you, “truth” is relative according to what your GB/elders teach in each new year.  To me, “truth” comes strictly from Jesus Christ.  This, is what they should be teaching.  John 15:5   Anything they add or take away from Christ’s words, they add and take away from the ability of JWs to know the Father. Matt 23:13 They are adding and taking away from the Word of God in like manner of the Pharisees. 

“Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you.”  Deut 4:2

 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”  Matt 19:17

Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”   Matt 22:34-40

 What is the difference with “Israel’s" leaders today?  They wear a face of deception; that appears innocent and humble. Acts 20:29,30; 2 Cor 11:4,13-15  Yet, they are “wise in their own eyes”, not in the eyes of God.  Isa 5:21; Matt 24:4,5,24  They judge according to their commandments, just as the Pharisees did. Matt 23:4; 15:7-9   And they have the gall to compare themselves to Moses - a prophet of God.  

How dare these men defy the words of Christ.

 therefore look, I am again doing something spectacular

and a spectacle with this spectacular people.
And the wisdom of its wise men shall perish,
    and the discernment of its discerning ones shall keep itself hidden.”
15 Ah! Those who make a plan deep, to hide it from YHWH,
    and their deeds are in a dark place.
And they say, “Who sees us?
    And who knows us?”
16 Your perversity!
    As if a potter shall be regarded as the clay!
That the product of its maker says,
    “He did not make me,”
and the thing made into shape says of its potter,
    “He has no understanding.”  Isa 29:13-16

How arrogantly bold of the uninspired GB, to teach that their words supersede the words of Christ – who IS THE WORD OF GOD.  John 1:1 

“For wicked people are found among my people,
    they lie in wait like the hiding of fowlers,
they set up a trap,
    they catch humans. (Col 2:8; Rev 13:10)
27 Like a cage full of birds,
    so their houses are full of fraud.
Therefore they have become great,
    and they have become rich.
28 They have grown fat,
    they have grown sleek,
also, their evil deeds have no limit.
    They do not judge with justice,
the legal cause of the orphan,
    or allow it to succeed,

and the legal case of the poor,
    they do not defend.
29 Because of these things shall I not punish?” declares Yahweh,
    “and on a nation who is like this, shall I not take revenge?
30 A horrific event and something horrible has happened in the land.
31 The prophets prophesy falsely,

and the priests rule by their own authority,
and my people love it so much. (2 Thess 2:9-12)
    But what will you do when the end comes?  Jer 5:26-31

 

 

 

 

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On 2/28/2020 at 12:39 PM, JW Insider said:

So the primary purpose of God sending the spirit into the hearts of Christians, a kind of anointing by holy spirit, is so that we will produce the fruitage that grows from that spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness and self-control.

I believe the NWT’s choice to use “fruitage” over “fruit” is deceiving.  It changes the intent of the scripture.

“Fruitage” indicates a process that leads to a result.  JWs believe their actions are the result of Holy Spirit within them.  The Greek word used is “karpos”, and is the same word used by Christ here:

“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.  Matt 7:15-20

If a good “tree” cannot produce bad fruit, or a bad tree, good fruit, then the tree carries within it one sort of spirit – either from Jesus Christ as truth, or from Satan the liar.  John 8:44; John 16:13

Fruit represents teachings spoken by anointed “trees”. Ps 104:16; Ezek 47:12; Rev 11:4; Zech 4:12-14; Rev 22:2  Fruit produced by those who “remain” in Christ, imparts love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control within themselves and in those who ingest this fruit provided by Holy Spirit.

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. Eph 4:4

So, Gal 5:22,23 speaks of the blessings of “good fruit” from symbolic anointed “trees” who reside in Christ. John 15:1-4

"A good man ("tree") brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.  Luke 6:45

Doctrine in the WT changes continually, which indicates clearly that they are producing bad fruit. How can any JW deny this, if he or she reads Jesus' words?   The scriptures show us that the “fruitage” of the GB, will result in their downfall.  Rev 16:13,14; 19:20

"The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire." Matt 3:10

 

 

http://pearl-finetrees.blogspot.com/

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Witness said:

Doctrine in the WT changes continually, which indicates clearly that they are producing bad fruit. How can any JW deny this, if he or she reads Jesus' words?

The only item in Paul's list of fruits of the spirit that comes anywhere near "doctrine" is faith. True religion is about love, joy, peace, and other good qualities that make us the sort of persons we ought to be at all times. Our motivation should be the spirit of Christ, which is basically love of God and love of neighbor, motivated by our faith. And therefore these good fruits come out of a clean heart, not motivated by the fleshly qualities of the world (or spirit of this world).

This is why I think that James 1:27 is saying exactly the same thing when it says that true religion could be defined as looking after orphans and widows in their tribulation - but doing this out of a proper heart motivation (faith and love) and therefore keeping ourselves without spot from worldly motivations. The following verses in James discuss the worldly motivations that interfere with true religion (true Christianity) and then falls back upon Jesus' "golden rule" and love to clinch the definition of true religion.

In fact, James summarizes much of what was said in Matthew 7 and Luke 6 and Galatians 5:

(James 3:10-18) . . .Out of the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers, it is not right for things to happen this way. 11 A spring does not cause the fresh water and the bitter water to bubble out of the same opening, does it? 12 My brothers, a fig tree cannot produce olives, or a grapevine figs, can it? Neither can salt water produce fresh water. 13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him by his fine conduct demonstrate works performed with a mildness that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter jealousy and contentiousness in your hearts, do not be bragging and lying against the truth. 15 This is not the wisdom that comes down from above; it is earthly, animalistic, demonic. 16 For wherever there are jealousy and contentiousness, there will also be disorder and every vile thing. 17 But the wisdom from above is first of all pure, then peaceable, reasonable, ready to obey, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial, not hypocritical. 18 Moreover, the fruit of righteousness is sown in peaceful conditions for those who are making peace.

Notice that there is very little talk of doctrine, except for how good conduct relates to doctrine. (Also note that James' list of "fruits of the spirit" includes "ready to obey" which L.H.McNelly already included previously.)

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2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

True religion is about love, joy, peace, and other good qualities that make us the sort of persons we ought to be at all times.

True religion is based on Truth from Christ, which results in those attributes.  Christ provides those who remain in him, with that wisdom.

But the wisdom from above is first of all pure, then peaceable, reasonable, ready to obey, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial, not hypocritical. 18 Moreover, the fruit of righteousness is sown in peaceful conditions for those who are making peace.

James 3:10-18 is all about the “wisdom” from God – His Word fulfilled in Christ who said,

 “My doctrine/”teaching” is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17 If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.  John 7:16,17

That doctrine is what we must be “ready to obey”.

“Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.”  John 14:24

Jesus, as the Word, was the perfect example of displaying the "good qualities" sourced in Holy Spirit.  

 Isa 48:17 - Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
“I am the Lord your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.

It is all about doctrine, teachings, fruit.  If we are not taught spiritual wisdom – TRUTH - from anointed “trees”, but instead are taught and practice the opposite of wisdom, which is foolishness revealed in falsehoods that come out of their mouth…and that we readily accept into our mind and heart... how can we say we practice righteous faith, love, joy that is acceptable to God?  (Micah 6:8)

A spring does not cause the fresh water and the bitter water to bubble out of the same opening, does it? 12 My brothers, a fig tree cannot produce olives, or a grapevine figs, can it? Neither can salt water produce fresh water. 13 Who is wise and understanding among you?

Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”  John 4:11

He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”  John 7:38

No one can produce “living water” from a clean heart, unless that heart has received truth and wisdom, from God through Christ. 

Has the GB who lead millions of people with their wavering teachings, received this truth and wisdom?  

 “Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding irreverent and empty speech and contradictions from what is falsely called knowledge. 21 By professing it, some people have departed from the faith. 1 Tim 6:20,21

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Our motivation should be the spirit of Christ, which is basically love of God and love of neighbor, motivated by our faith. And therefore these good fruits come out of a clean heart, not motivated by the fleshly qualities of the world (or spirit of this world).

 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?   Matt 5:46,47

The spirit of Christ is Truth.

“Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”  John 4:23,24

“We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.” 1 John 4:6

“This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.” 1 John 5:6

We learn the “good fruit” of the doctrine/teachings of Christ, in order to practice true religion - to worship God in the Spirit and in truth.  The Greek word for "religion" means "religious worship". 

 Pure and undefiled religion before God the Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself unstained from the world.  James 1:27

Mankind, he has told each of you what is good
and what it is the Lord requires of you:
to act justly,
to love faithfulness,
and to walk humbly with your God
.  Micah 6:8

 

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13 hours ago, Kosonen said:

@Witness Many good scriptures, it i good to be reminded about them!

It sure is, for all of us.  I relate to what @4Jah2me said about developing a close relationship with the Father and Jesus since being out of the Watchtower. I have heard others who have left the organization say similar.  The scriptures and the wisdom within them, begin to speak to us as never before.  It reminds me of 1 Cor 1:20-25

  "Where is the wise person? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not know God, God was pleased through the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe. 22 For indeed, Jews ask for sign miracles and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a cause for stumbling, but to the Gentiles foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom,and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength."

I do cherish Proverbs 8 where we can spiritually visualize the wisdom of God and Jesus Christ.  

 

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