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TrueTomHarley

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Quote @JW Insider  We have quite simply used a false definition of "generation." This is not honest. It brings shame and reproach on Jehovah's name and on the organization and brotherhood that we love. It is clearly a stretching of the definition beyond what is legitimately possible, and is apparently done so out of presumptuousness and haughtiness, which is always easier than humbly admitting that we just don't know. It is also based on a feeling that rank-and-file Witnesses can't be trusted to keep urgently busy and alert unless someone is reminding them of how close the end might be.

This paragraph should be put up in lights and remembered by ALL who visit this forum. 

@Space Merchant Please inwardly digest this paragraph above. 

@JW Insider  is referring to the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses here. Those 8 men that call themselves the 'Faithful and Discreet Slave'. 

The paragraph shows no sign of anyone being either Faithful or Discreet. 

It shows dishonesty, falseness, presumptuousness and haughtiness. 

And more importantly, it brings shame on God. 

Before deriding me, please remember those words in that paragraph are from a JW with JW parents, and who's father is an Elder. 

All this without mentioning, which i will now, this 'new light' about 2034 being the new 1975.

And that idea being based on people living for 120 years, where as Psalms 90 v 10 says :-

 The span of our life is 70 years,Or 80 if one is especially strong.*But they are filled with trouble and sorrow;They quickly pass by, and away we fly

So doesn't that knock a hole in the 120 years theory ? 

I'm sorry but I'm laughing at you all. You all know how bad the GB are and how badly the CCJW is being run, but you all still love it so much because it tickles your ears. 

Whereas if you really wanted to serve God properly you would try to change the GB and the running of the Org. Because God and Christ would be more important to you than your GB. 

 

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I know this wasn't directed directly at me, but I am just as likely to ridicule the chart as several others around here. The reason is reason: (Philippians 4:5) 5 Let your reasonableness become k

People should be defended wherever possible. The motives can be quite pure and still mistakes are made. In fact, I would say that there are specific good motives that make certain kinds of mistakes ev

You know, I can get my head around this. I really can. I’ll still refer to you from time to time as ‘the brother with the rotten attitude’ because who knows how many brothers you have stumbled in

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9 hours ago, Arauna said:

it means that anyone born in the time of the 1914-generation is still part of the 1914-generation.

As far as I know (I do not know the exact history and origin of such a calculation) a period of one year or 12 months is the framework for measuring the term - generation. So, all persons born within those 12 months of a given year can be considered to be one (1) generation. Every person born after December 31st in a given year, becomes part of some other generation from the following year with the date of January 1. This is a normal and common understanding of the term generation. And it works still today between people with normal, common sense. :))) 
Everything else one wants to add as an explanation for the purpose of defending the idea of GB about the "overlapping generation" is nothing but religious entanglements that should support a failed organized-religious concept of a failed ideology that is still alive in WTJWorg.
Most here have finished high school. When you graduated, what generation of graduates were you? What generation of graduates do you still belong to today? To my generation, was born in 1961? Or my father generation who was born in 1923? ............. Or you belong to both (triple) generations of graduates in the same time because you were born in 1949? 

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On 4/21/2020 at 2:25 AM, JW Insider said:

This means they were born by or before 1900, baptized by or before 1914, and would be at least 120 years old today if they were part of "This Generation."  

Since not all family lineages started at 1900 (not all in one generation are the same age ) it means that anyone born in the time of the 1914-generation is still part of the 1914-generation.  And anyone born before 1914 and was 90 years old  in 1914 were also of this 1914- generation. Anyone that is anointed in the time between 1914 and say 1992 could hence still be part of that 1914-generation because in a generation all are not the same age and they had contact with this generation.

I always had a problem with the old definition of generation because I understand from history that all people living in the same generation are not the same age.

Abraham was part of the "post-flood" generation.  Why? He was born when Shem was still alive. Between Shem and Abraham there were 427 years. In this time 10 new generations were born and until ALL of those died off (those who were born in Shems lifetime), after Shem died, they were all still part of the post- flood Shem-generation. Why? They potentially could speak to shem and  even his brothers.....and learn about the flood and post flood conditions in his area.  So Abraham was of the post-flood generation. 

Noah died 2 years before the birth of Abraham.....he was of the Pre-flood generation. So after Noah died - all those born in his lifetime and who could contact him and could benefit from his wisdom about pre-flood generation stories, was of his generation. Noah he lived to see the beginning of 9 generations of his decendants after the flood. These were all part of his generation until they died off.  Some people born were contemporaries of Noah and of Abraham..... and could then qualify for both generations.

Shem lived at least until 75 years AFTER abraham entered Canaan.  My numbers could be slightly off......as I did the calculations in haste but this is to illustrate what a generation means.  This is the criteria for a generation. 

The modern idea of a generation is organized according to trends.... such as the babyboomers or millenials.... but this is not a true definition of a generation.

When I speak of pastor Russel's generation, i think of the elderly born in say 1790 and were still alive when Russel printed his magazine, as well as all those people born after this until 1916 when Russel died.  Those who afterwards died, after Russel died, but were born while he was alive, were still part of his generation.

So a generation is not the linear line most people think of. 

 

 

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34 minutes ago, Arauna said:

So a generation is not the linear line most people think of. 

There was a feature in the Watchtower for a while that roughly paralleled ‘Watching the World.’ Does @JW Insider, who may have done the mock-up in a quoin, remember it? One page, and three items to the page.

There was an item in the 1970s of some historian who pointed out that generation could be described as clustered around broad historical events, such as the generation of the Industrial Age. I well remember thinking that the organization might make use of that one day. If so, there might me one last hurrah even if 2034 came and went.

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Question is: Do they, as one group of people, who were part of some particular event or/and events that is of special significance for human, for nation, for individual (or for God) constitute "generation"? "Generation" in only one meaning and for only one purpose as WTJWorg done and still doing with "1914 Generation"?   

We could speak about specific event/s that marked some period of time, than that could include people of various ages and prominence/background, in one part of the world or on global scene. Biggest Tsunami in Philippine, biggest Hurricane in Florida, biggest earthquake in Croatia marks specific time period in particular part of world and by that particular people in that time frame when event occurred can be possible to put into "generation frame" as one of possible meaning according to Dictionaries. People of many various ages, nationality, ethnicity and religious, educational ... etc belongings, were part of one group of people (not generation in chronology sense) that were connected because of same, collective experience inside same event or inside same time frame . 

Perhaps using wording 1914 Generation (in various meaning and content, from: all people to wicked people to 144000 class to GB members) for this and such purpose (speaking about particular time period and events inside particular time frame) is not best choice and not describe real meaning and purpose.

Also, what is of main importance in connection to WTJWorg and Bible context. Their fixation on the year 1914 as start point of events and their fixation on particular people who was born in that year, who was old enough to saw that year events, who was part of something in that year, became Conceptual Problem for some time already. Only for that reason they came with "overlapping generation" . But, in fact they already accepted old meaning, from past till today, how generation, as term already means overlapping (b: a group of individuals born and living contemporaneously). In fact GB not invented nothing new but they just contributed to more confusion in already confusing doctrine and they try to stretch time frame little more, because narrow, strait life span of generation as partially biblical view is 70-80 years.  

 WTJWorg no longer have Basic 1914 Generation doctrine, because that doctrine, as religious truth, became religious lie. But they have need to continue with same wrong, err doctrine and continue with it. Lie with new wording - "overlapping generation". Since consumers in an OLG model are modeled as individuals who live for n periods (n 2), people born in n different periods (or n different generations) coexist in any given period t. While consumers die at the end of n periods, reproduction assures that there will be an infinite succession of consumers, each living for n periods. - https://www.encyclopedia.com/social-sciences/applied-and-social-sciences-magazines/overlapping-generations-model

For sure, WT doctrines Consumers coexist in any given period. ;)))

I would look on their religious problem with this thoughts. If they are enough aware how wrong they are and they were all this paste decades after 1914 generation died and not see fulfill about all promises that WT published, nowadays WT bible scholars and leaders missed opportunity and moment to throw away all that errors. And to purified themselves. But with upgrading old misconception they inherited from past leaders, they (today leadership) purposely entering into darker space. Why? Because of reason to justified old error they constructed new fixation with intention to cover old error. And such mental process with this sort of product from these individuals, made them to be religious fraudsters or liars.

 

Definition of generation

1a: a body of living beings constituting a single step in the line of descent from an ancestor 

b: a group of individuals born and living contemporaneously the younger generation 

c: a group of individuals having contemporaneously a status (such as that of students in a school) which each one holds only for a limited period 

d: a type or class of objects usually developed from an earlier type first of the … new generation of powerful supersonic fighters— Kenneth Koyen 

2a: the action or process of producing offspring : PROCREATION 

b: the process of coming or bringing into being generation of income 

c: origination by a generating process : PRODUCTION especially : formation of a geometric figure by motion of another 

3: the average span of time between the birth of parents and that of their offspring - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/generation

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4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Does @JW Insider, who may have done the mock-up in a quoin, remember it?

A quoin? Wrong generation.

I'm sure the quote you meant is here, highlighted below:

*** w80 10/15 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***
What, then, is the “generation” that “will by no means pass away until all these things occur”? It does not refer to a period of time, which some have tried to interpret as 30, 40, 70 or even 120 years, but, rather, it refers to people, the people living at the “beginning of pangs of distress” for this condemned world system. It is the generation of people who saw the catastrophic events that broke forth in connection with World War I from 1914 onward.
As indicated by an article on page 56 of U.S. News & World Report of January 14, 1980, “If you assume that 10 is the age at which an event creates a lasting impression on a person’s memory,” then there are today more than 13 million Americans who have a “recollection of World War I.” And if the wicked system of this world survived until the turn of the century, which is highly improbable in view of world trends and the fulfillment of Bible prophecy, there would still be survivors of the World War I generation. However, the fact that their number is dwindling is one more indication that “the conclusion of the system of things” is moving fast toward its end.
In this connection, the magazine The Economist of March 15, 1980, gave an interesting review of a book entitled “The Generation of 1914” by Robert Wohl. It made this significant remark: “Eventually Mr. Wohl voices his own opinions about the generation of 1914. In a terse and condensed last chapter he suggests that generations are not mathematically definable in terms of numbers of years, but cluster around major historical crises, of which the first world war is the supreme example. This lines up very well with the Scriptural viewpoint that Jehovah’s Witnesses take on “the generation of 1914.”
Yes, there was a generation of people that was living in 1914, and that saw the major historical changes from an era of comparative tranquillity to the present era of war, lawlessness and ruination. Many who are now Jehovah’s Witnesses were among them. Truly, 1914 marked “the supreme example” of change, for that year set in motion the foretold “beginning of pangs of distress” among the nations. Many persons are still alive who can tell us how catastrophically conditions on earth changed in the year 1914. And the world continues to plunge into worse and worse trouble. We can be happy, therefore, for Jesus’ assurance that there will be survivors of “the generation of 1914”—that this generation will not have completely passed away—when the “great tribulation” rings down the curtain on this wicked world system.

 

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Wohl has also been quoted again:

*** w04 2/1 p. 20 par. 9 “The Scene of This World Is Changing” ***
Has “the scene of this world” really changed so much since 1914? In the book The Generation of 1914, Professor Robert Wohl observes: “Those who lived through the war could never rid themselves of the belief that one world had ended and another begun in August 1914.

And again:

*** w95 11/1 pp. 18-19 pars. 7-8 A Time to Keep Awake ***
In line with the above, professor of history Robert Wohl wrote in his book The Generation of 1914: “A historical generation is not defined by its chronological limits . . . It is not a zone of dates.” But he pointed out that World War I created “an overwhelming sense of rupture with the past,” and he added: “Those who lived through the war could never rid themselves of the belief that one world had ended and another begun in August 1914.” How true that is! It focuses on the crux of the matter. “This generation” of mankind since 1914 has experienced appalling changes. It has seen the earth drenched with the blood of millions. Warfare, genocide, terrorism, crime, and lawlessness have erupted worldwide. Famine, disease, and immorality have stalked our globe. Jesus prophesied: “You also, when you [his disciples] see these things occurring, know that the kingdom of God is near. Truly I say to you, This generation will by no means pass away until all things occur.”—Luke 21:31, 32.
    8 Yes, the complete triumph of the Messianic Kingdom is at hand! Is anything to be gained, then, by looking for dates or by speculating about the literal lifetime of a “generation”? Far from it!

*** w84 5/15 pp. 3-4 1914—Just History? Or Does It Affect You? ***
      Regarding the significance of World War I, English author J. B. Priestley wrote: “If you were born in 1894, as I was, you suddenly saw a great jagged crack in the looking-glass. After that your mind could not escape from the idea of a world that ended in 1914 and another one that began about 1919, with a wilderness of smoke and fury . . . lying between them.”
       The survivors of the “sacrificed generation” of 1914, as it has been called, [Footnote, Robert Wohl, in The Generation of 1914.] have lived through momentous times that started with trenches and cannons and that are ending with intercontinental ballistic missiles capable of causing world destruction. This “progress” fits in with Jesus Christ’s prophetic words: “Nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; . . . and on the earth there will be dismay among the nations and bewilderment at the roar of the surging sea. Men’s courage will fail completely as they realise what is threatening the world, for the very powers of heaven will be shaken.”—Luke 21:10, 25, 26, Phillips.
       These words of Jesus are part of the composite sign that marks “the end of this world.” As has often been shown in this journal, since 1914 this prophecy has been undergoing fulfillment on a grand scale. But Jesus added something very significant about the generation of 1914. What was it? He said: “When you see these things occurring, know that the kingdom of God is near. Truly I say to you, This generation will by no means pass away until all things occur.”—Matthew 24:3, Ph; Luke 21:29-32.

Oddly, no one ever seemed to question the last part of this theory, that when we see all these things occurring, we should know that the Kingdom of God is near. The generation wouldn't pass away until the the Kingdom would be born before the end of that generation that saw all those things.

In other words, what was seen in 1914, was not a sign that the Kingdom had been born, but such things were the birth pangs prior to the Kingdom being born.

Here's an interesting quote from part two of the article just quoted above:

*** w84 5/15 pp. 4-5 1914—The Generation That Will Not Pass Away ***
       In his book The Generation of 1914, professor of history Robert Wohl presents an unusual definition when he states: “A historical generation is not defined by its chronological limits or its borders. It is not a zone of dates . . . It is more like a magnetic field at the center of which lies an experience or a series of experiences. . . . What is essential to the formation of a generational consciousness is some common frame of reference that provides a sense of rupture with the past . . . This frame of reference is always derived from great historical events like wars, revolutions, plagues, famines, and economic crises.”
       From that point of view, the Great War of 1914-18 and its aftermath certainly formed a “frame of reference” to mark a generation. As professor Wohl comments: World War I created “an overwhelming sense of rupture with the past. Those who lived through the war could never rid themselves of the belief that one world had ended and another begun in August 1914.”
        Jesus used the word “generation” many times in different settings and with various meanings. But what did he mean when he spoke of a ‘generation that would not pass away’? Some have interpreted “generation” to mean a period of 30, 40, 70 or even 120 years. However, a generation is really related to people and events, rather than to a fixed number of years.
       The Greek word rendered “generation” in the Bible has been defined as, “Those born at the same time . . . Associated with this is the meaning: the body of one’s contemporaries, an age.” (The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology) “The sum total of those born at the same time, expanded to include all those living at a given time generation, contemporaries.” (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament from Walter Bauer’s Fifth Edition, 1958) These definitions embrace both those born around the time of a historic event and all those alive at that time.
        If Jesus used “generation” in that sense and we apply it to 1914, then the babies of that generation are now 70 years old or older. And others alive in 1914 are in their 80’s or 90’s, a few even having reached a hundred. There are still many millions of that generation alive. Some of them “will by no means pass away until all things occur.”—Luke 21:32.

He was also quoted again here in the 1981 Kingdom book, just a year after the original quote:

*** kc chap. 14 p. 140 The King Reigns! ***
“THE GENERATION OF 1914”
  In a book of the above title, Robert Wohl “suggests that generations are not mathematically definable in terms of numbers of years, but cluster around major historical crises, of which the first world war is the supreme example.”—“The Economist,” March 15, 1980

 

 

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I think it's funny when the CCJW / W/t, that are 'No part of the world' quote from a  professor of history, Robert Wohl so many times.

Even when God's word says " Do not put your trust in princes, Nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help."

And the GB / Org says Higher Education is of no use and should be avoided.

And how many times did they use quotes from this 'worldly educated man' ?

Um, the Leaders of the JW Org must have been very unstable to have to use such quotes so many times.

God's word does not need backing up by worldly men's words, but it seems the Watchtower needed backing up by them. 


 

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8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

There was an item in the 1970s of some historian who pointed out that generation could be described as clustered around broad historical events, such as the generation of the Industrial Age. I well remember thinking that the organization might make use of that one day. If so, there might me one last hurrah even if 2034 came and went.

That would have to be looked into.

That being said, there's always the Issac Newton route.

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2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

He was also quoted again here in the 1981 Kingdom book, just a year after the original quote:

*** kc chap. 14 p. 140 The King Reigns! ***
“THE GENERATION OF 1914”
  In a book of the above title, Robert Wohl “suggests that generations are not mathematically definable in terms of numbers of years, but cluster around major historical crises, of which the first world war is the supreme example.”—“The Economist,” March 15, 1980

"Generation" is cluster (of people) around major historical events.

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

** w84 5/15 pp. 4-5 1914—The Generation That Will Not Pass Away ***
       In his book The Generation of 1914, professor of history Robert Wohl presents an unusual definition when he states: “A historical generation is not defined by its chronological limits or its borders. It is not a zone of dates . . . It is more like a magnetic field at the center of which lies an experience or a series of experiences. . . . What is essential to the formation of a generational consciousness is some common frame of reference that provides a sense of rupture with the past . . . This frame of reference is always derived from great historical events like wars, revolutions, plagues, famines, and economic crises.”
       From that point of view, the Great War of 1914-18 and its aftermath certainly formed a “frame of reference” to mark a generation.

"Historical generation" are people who have an experience or a series of experience.

In both examples we see how center of attention, limelight are not people but events or in Bible terminology "signs".

But, are they, "signs" in the eyes of the beholder trustful, reliable measure for conclusions? And as you mentioned before, what "signs" and events truly speaking? Are they beginning of start point or beginning of end point? Or, are they a means for help, for understanding  that it will become more difficult for each generation in each subsequent period marked by new and uncertain things, events, circumstances? 

Things can going from bad to worst, and they going in that direction for centuries. But also, we see how some things went from bad to better. It depends, all is in the eyes of beholder.     

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4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I'm sure the quote you meant is here, highlighted below:

No. But it probably is the same author. 

I distinctly remember it was one of three ‘Insight on the Scriptures’ items on a page in the Watchtower. 

JTR will attest to how I never ever EVER forget details. Unfortunately, he has taken a leave of absence and so his corroborating endorsement will have to be taken for granted.

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