Furuli's new e-book: "My Beloved Religion - And The Governing Body"

[Anna 2,611]

On 5/26/2020 at 12:16 AM, JW Insider said:

One major difference is that Furuli has evidently taken a more proactive role, and pretty much admits to assuming that he won't be answered, just because they haven't dealt with him or his issues yet. You might have nailed it when you wondered just how he knows they are refusing to consider his "corrections." But I'm pretty sure that he knows. He knows what is inevitable, or at least what would have been inevitable if he hadn't got this book out there first.

I am wondering what he thinks he is going to achieve with his book. I think some of us have had similar ideas to him, but were we thinking of publishing a book about it? Who does he think his audience is going to be? As soon as any Witness gets an inkling of apostasy, no matter how highly thought of he is, or whether he was a circuit overseer or not,  they will likely not read it. The only people that will probably read it are apostates, those hovering on the edge, or scholars like you and me on here 😂. So a very limited audience. (Look at Tom, he writes good books, they are not controversial (only a little bit) but because of his limited audience he will never make a living with them). I mean does he think he will change anything? For that to happen, every Witness would have to write a letter, as somebody on here already suggested. That is the only way anyone at HQ will listen. Interestingly, a few weeks ago in service I was talking to new couple from our hall (it was before the pandemic). They are from up north, both having HQ connections. Anyway, the conversation turned to the recent restructuring and re-organizing and the selling of KH. Since they were close to all kinds of information I though I would ask them about all this merging and sell offs. I knew that "equalizing" was not the only  reason. They gave the usual reasons like some halls were not being used to full capacity, thereby money was being wasted etc. So I asked them how come halls were not at full capacity? The husband said that people move etc. however, the wife came out with something interesting, and I was surprised she even said it. She said that there are quite a lot who have left. I asked her to clarify and she said; left the truth. I told her that I was sure part of the reason was that people are finding out things they would have never learned before the days of the Internet. They both agreed and we left it there. I don't think any of us wanted to carry on the conversation....

[Anna 2,611]

20 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Binged two seasons last year.

Well that's what we are doing right now. Just finishing season 2.

20 hours ago, JW Insider said:

22 hours ago, Anna said:

Where I am going with this is that I can see a parallel with the FDS.

It never occurred to me, although it did make me remember how we used to read or watch this kind of history and wonder who might have been the FDS, if any, during that time period. That idea was based on the old definition of the FDS: any of the anointed remnant who were alive at any given time anywhere on earth. We used to say that there were always some anointed at all times, somewhere on the earth, who could be considered the faithful and discreet slave.

I think you may have misunderstood me. My fault probably. I wasn't thinking of the anointed or FDS through the ages, but of the FDS in modern times. I was thinking of the "power" the old and new set of GB/FDS have which could be compared to the king. The current GB/FDS "rule" over more than 8 million people.  In anything they do, they, like the king, have God's backing. If anyone speaks against them, it's like speaking against God. This has been said many times in our publications, of course not in these words.

20 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Jesus is the only governor of the household of faith, or God's house. (Hebrews 3:5-8, 1 Peter 2:4-10)

Yes, of course. And whenever this is discussed, the GB tries to make sure that this is understood. But then on the other hand, when there is talk of "God's visible" organization, the GB are at the forefront of that organization. It's like no one really knows where to draw the line, and I think that's the crux of the problem.

You kind of address it here:

20 hours ago, JW Insider said:

what if the one thing that makes us think we have the first century situation in hand is that we have what we think of as modern-day apostles? And what if we should not? It's so hard to imagine the organization or any religious organization without effective leadership, especially to help guide a worldwide preaching activity. I admit that it's hard to imagine any kind of religion our size without apostle-like figures who are probably looked up to by those around them as if they are the Paul, the Apollos, the Cephas, and the James of our day.

And you further address the dilemma here (bold mine)

20 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Is Jesus looking for a worldwide congregation where somehow all the teaching is already handled through the obvious content of the scriptures, and those taking the lead in each individual congregation are only taking the lead in teaching by example, offering encouragement, binding up the brokenhearted, doing good and charitable works, feeding the hungry, clothing the needy, showing hospitality? Even if this were the case, congregations become complex, and there is always someone with an idea toward a new doctrine, or who wants his ego stroked by getting people to support his side, making the biggest decisions. Also, we know that many of the world's religions have devolved into social clubs on the one hand with doctrines as loose as boats without rudders in a stormy sea. On the other hand some are so fundamentally rigid in their beliefs that doctrinal discussion can result in violence. It seems that a "true religion" even today, requires human leadership of an apostle-like variety. Is this just a lack of faith in what could be a solution that matches Jesus' words: None of you shall be called Leaders (much less, a Body of Governors) for one is your Leader, and all of you are brothers. Is it possible for everyone is a large religion to all treat everyone as superior to themselves. (Furuli praises a visit from F.W.Franz where his wife met him and thought he treated her as superior to himself.)

(Philippians 2:1-4) . . .If, then, there is any encouragement in Christ, if any consolation of love, if any spiritual fellowship, if any tender affection and compassion, 2 make my joy full by being of the same mind and having the same love, being completely united, having the one thought in mind. 3 Do nothing out of contentiousness or out of egotism, but with humility consider others superior to you, 4 as you look out not only for your own interests, but also for the interests of others.

After a few years in Bethel and among elders and publishers of many different responsibilities and positions, I find it nearly impossible to imagine a unity (being of the same mind and having the same love, being completely united) where even the Governing Body consider you and me and Tom and Furuli and Melinda and Allen superior to them in all humility. Perhaps I don't have the faith that something like this is workable.

So what's the solution? A book?? 😁 (I don't think so. Although I must admit I am looking forward to reading it)

[Anna 2,611]

7 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Again, there has to be organizational leadership in order for an organization to function, and there even has to be spiritual leadership, leading by example. But is it right for one man, or group of men, to have exclusive monopoly on the INTERPRETATION of scripture, but more importantly should this group have the right to insist that everyone accepts only their interpretation, and if not, they may be denied membership, or if they are already members it will be counted as "treason" and they will be ex-communicated (in our society we no longer chop peoples heads off) and ordered to live like outcasts, outlaws, banished and shunned by the whole community as they know it, including relatives. It sounds to me like something from my movie. Is this the model Jesus had in mind? I repeat, as a group, the GB are untouchable because they have enough support from "subjects". Remove that support and they are "nothing". But didn't Jesus say we should support one another, and come to the aid of our brothers?

Thank you for putting it all in colour. It looks pretty.

[TrueTomHarley 4,684]

1 hour ago, Anna said:

Look at Tom, he writes good books, they are not controversial (only a little bit) but because of his limited audience he will never make a living with them

Says you. Look closely at the drawing in next week’s Watchtower on materialism—the drawing of the prideful brother thumbing his chest with one hand and motioning to his riches with the other—fine large home, boat almost at large, sports car, stacks of bills. Look closely at the face and tell me if you recognize him.

1 hour ago, Anna said:

I thought I would ask them about all this merging and sell offs.

At the coffee shop a fellow customer began ribbing me about the nearby closed Kingdom Hall. “It’s because of our great growth!” I told him.

[ComfortMyPeople 298]

11 hours ago, ComfortMyPeople said:

At the beginning of Furuli's book there is a paragraph referring to a certain letter sent to {the congregations? the elders?} The paragraph in question says:

However, after carefully reviewing the matter, the Governing Body has
determined that administering such a transfusion

I would like to mention that I cannot find this letter. I have looked again in the letters to the elders section of our branch in Spain, but I have not found it. I am not saying at all that Furuli is not truthful, only that I cannot find this letter. Maybe someone could help me out ...

 

The question I raise has more substance:

As far as I know, no brother who works as a nurse or doctor and who administers blood sporadically and following the instructions of a superior has to face any judicial committee.

Along the same lines, no one who sells products with blood - or tobacco - from time to time in a supermarket that is not of his property, necessarily loses the status of "good reputation" or of being a "good example".

The nuances that can emerge from the two examples I just cited are innumerable. But Furuli mentions a certain letter where there is no nuance: according to the letter, the witnesses should no longer behave according to their conscience in these matters, it is black or white.

So, the advice that I (and all the elders that I know) are giving, and the way to approach these situations that I raise, do not follow the instructions of that "unknown" letter.

I have the impression, from the phraseology of the letter that Furuli cites ("the Governing Body has decided") that he has collected the information from a site that seeks to discredit us. In fact, Furuli adds in a footnote on page 11:

4. This new policy was also communicated to the congregation members.

In other words, that apart from the elders, another instruction has been read to the entire congregation: well, no idea about this. I ask: do any witnesses to this forum remember if two years ago this new instruction was read at a meeting?

[JW Insider 5,913]

1 hour ago, ComfortMyPeople said:

do any witnesses to this forum remember if two years ago this new instruction was read at a meeting?

No. I don't. But I called up an elder who would know. I thought. He didn't. I called another.  I called my father (elder, but never on HLC).

Two out of three say that the "official" position was that it is still a matter of conscience. One says he heard about a letter that he has not seen, but which was supposed to be read, not sent, to specific Witnesses who were employed in hospitals, especially nurses. He says he knows of a nurse who ended up disassociating over it. He suspects that it became a potential legal nightmare and the "project" [his word] was never completed.

I have the impression that if there ever was a letter, it was not supposed to be seen or read in the congregations. There is too much of a chance that it would end up in a court after some potential "snafu" with a JW nurse that ended up in the death of a patient.

If true, this would actually be worse. I'm having trouble believing it, too. But there have been parallels.

[Srecko Sostar 2,026]

5 hours ago, AveragePub said:

I simply do not understand why write a book.

If a person has knowledge of imperfections in the organization that person certainly must know that Jesus also is aware.

If you know of another group doing God's work better, go join them!

Ok, one side of logic triggered next question: Why WT doing the same, writing and publishing books (Bibles and tracts, magazines, brochures) ?

Because they also know how Jesus is aware of everything that is going on Earth, not only in this or that organization.

[Srecko Sostar 2,026]

5 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Even going as far as to alter and or change the reproduction system, which is on the extreme end (Srecko knows what I am talking about, hence is wild remark in the past).

@Ann O'Maly My memory is very short, sometimes, but i recall how i put in focus facts how some life forms on this planet changing sex in their life time. And that is happening as normal part of their characteristic and gens. When people talking about who created life on Earth, according to Bible answer is God. Well, God created some animals in such format to be able to change sex. 

Changing of sex inside human species is complicated issue. And question is, why would some person wish to do that when many other don't wish that.

Space Merchant have issue with science who discovered how some animal species have changing sex ability. Or, he have issue with God who created such ability for some life forms?  

And now we can expect how Mr Space will copy paste and link all my past conversation with Him. God, please save us from "enormous text attack".  :))

[JW Insider 5,913]

9 hours ago, ComfortMyPeople said:

I have the impression, from the phraseology of the letter that Furuli cites ("the Governing Body has decided") that he has collected the information from a site that seeks to discredit us. In fact, Furuli adds in a footnote on page 11:

This could be an important key, or clue, as to why Furuli has gone this far. If he has become a policy "wonk," perhaps with a serious health problem, and lives in an online bubble, then his world might not be as safe for him as in a congregation of persons who will help keep you "grounded." House-to-house work will do the same as TTH already pointed out. But it's possible Furuli has bcome someone who lives for his reputation, and that reputation is all online these days.

This is not the guess I would have made as to what triggered him to take it this far. But it might still be related. I would certainly like to have this cleared up myself if I were to begin trying to brainstorm ideas (or is it gossip?) about why he took the "book" step.

He has quite possibly had troubles in the past with HQ, and if COJ is to be believed, others have been "stumbled" out of the organization over his attitude and tactics. But he is a more complex person than I imagined. Gossip exists that he was to be removed as an elder about two decades ago, but that the local body of elders in his congregation somehow out-voted the Circuit Overseer sent to handle the matter. That comes from a 12-year-old post on a site that I rarely visit except by Google-directed accidents. What makes it seem real, however, is that

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Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.

, he was already taking the same stand against the "GB" on a couple of issues:

# 1. Education. Furuli says: Do take education!

# 2. Governing Body. Furuli says: GB is not spirit directed.(GB dont claim to be, but a lot of JW belive they are and enligthening the dubs are controversial.)

# 3. Service. (Society says, do take part in all kinds of service like door to door, street work and bla bla.) Furuli says: You don't have do do everything. Do the kind of service that makes you comfortable.

I don't know anything about who I was just quoting from that site. But to see that all this was documented 12 years ago says something about a longer struggle than I had imagined. I see the points numbered 1 and 2 even more deeply ingrained now, and point 3 hinted at, too.

I went into some depth on the attitude of Fred Franz in earlier posts because it's part of my theory. I think Furuli is stuck on the man, (as both a gentleman and a scholar) and the whole Franz era, with all its types and antitypes, and chronologies, etc. I'm sure you are seeing that in the book, too. I think Furuli actually sees himself as capable of stepping into Franz' shoes and even improving the types and antitypes from that idealized era.

Reading the book reminded me of the Annual Meeting talk by Brother Splane in October 2014. In that talk, Splane went on about a certain brother (A. Smith) who just loved the pyramidology theories. But when Rutherford dropped them as Satanic, Smith obediently dropped it too. But then Splane went on to talk about how wonderful and exciting the "types and antitypes" have appealed to certain ones, and how he hoped that these persons, too, will be able to gladly drop them. It made me think that Furuli had already been in correspondence about a couple of the old Franz-esque types and antitypes that had already been dismissed or greatly de-emphasized from "types" to "reminders" especially since 2010. Furuli would have had even more interest in giving feedback to the WTS over the 2013 release of the "Simplified" NWT, which he "trashes" in his book.

[Arauna 1,761]

23 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Perhaps I don't have the faith that something like this is workable.

In this world nothing is perfect because humans tend to overstep boundaries - even Moses did so.

But if we are really prepared to give our life for another (spirit of christ), then reading our bible and sticking close to jehovah would be our main goal - and spreading the core teachings of the bible, such as the kingdom government. This saves lives. No other actions are worth a reward from jehovah more than these. To humbly serve others.

Literal rebellion against any other human (turn the other cheek ), or earthly institution would not come up in our mind......BUT: this would not in any way mean that we tolerate any form of ' yeast'. Our conscience will help us to quickly quelch any form of wickedness or even speak up against evil,  when needed,  in a kind and loving way. This is possible within our small sphere of influence..... 

If this was the prevailing attitude (which is closer to perfection) in the entire organization, from top to bottom, everything would run better. But people are always overstepping boundaries due to imperfection. They go overboard or extend their influence.

7 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Why MUST some people have a platform to prove themselves! 

Because : if you read the quoted scriptures above (several people referred to scriptures) about humility, not being contentious, then a TRUE Christian with a genuine humble spirit will self-regulate. 

Granted, self-control regarding bad inclinations is the hardest part of being a Christian..... and to my thinking receives too little attention.  We will do NOTHING out of egotism which can hurt our brothers or sisters and not overstep the invisible boundaries but stay in JEhovahs love. (The governing body and Feruli included).

If everyone had this spirit not even elders would be necessary. But jehovah in his wisdom knew that we are dust and set a precedent in first century Jerusalem and also gave us elders and ministerial servants........ because we as humans need some form of  facilitation. 

A world- wide organization needs some form of coordination and fiscal management as well as policy management.  Neglect of management direction brought the tolerance of child molestation accusations.  

If they manage too much they are called dictators.... if they manage to little they are called incompetent and degenerate regarding  morals.... the pharisees and self-appointed judges of our time are everywhere! 

3 hours ago, Anna said:

So what's the solution? A book??

Is it just a form of public rebellion?  Or has he seen specific abuses of people by the GB? (Not mistakes, but abuses of trust which can be proved....)

HERE IS MY OPINION: 

In my secular working life I have seen CEOs of global corporations move from one corporation to another.  Many have good degrees and without a doubt  walk around like gods ......with everyone in fear of them, pandering to them to obtain a favourable eye..... following every instruction to the letter...... or lose their jobs.

When these CEOs have made many arbitrary decisions, which bring the company almost to ruin, they usually leave just in time so someone else can pick up the pieces. They do NOT navigate companies through hard financial times perfectly because their chrystal balls are usually defective.  (I worked for the 4th largest logistics company in the world in 2008).  Yet, these CEO's CVs read like a dream, they were CEOs of several companies, maybe a fortune 500 company, and are celebrated, get millions of dollars  in bonuses, get astounding salaries, chauffeurs, trips with business air seats etc....... despite all the wrong decisions and attitudes.

They are truly a mini-government, fat cats with perks that will make the Sun king blush.

In contrast, simple men take a world-wide responsibility and in the process get a lot of respect (not worship). They have small personal perks which can never ever be measured up against a secular company.

They cannot change jobs when they have messed up or made a mistake. THey are more accountable than CEOs because they have to fix up their own mistakes and face the music........and eager worldly criticism.... AND on top of that are accountable to Jehovah.

Most people expect NO mistakes (always highlight even small mistakes) and they are always accused (by opposers) of setting themselves up as gods. People judge them so easily....... even though they are navigating us through highly  critical financial times and even critical spiritual times.  Did Jesus not predict that many would leave the faith and turn against brothers? I am sure there is  more is to come..... when brazen opposers stand up in the congregation and betray brothers. 

I can only encourage brothers to not be 'swayed' by these winds that bring cross-winds and storms before the end... Steadily stay the course.... eyes humbly focussed on the promised  target  - everlasting life. 

[Arauna 1,761]

35 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Changing of sex inside human species is complicated issue. And

An X chromosome can never become a Y...... that is science.

Do you know about the recent painful divorce case where a father had to watch his doctor wife indoctrinate the son that he is a girl and then start hormonal treatments at age seven? 

In Canada and UK some states they can take your child from the home if you refuse hormonal treatments - it is seen as abuse! 

Satan wants to break the family, all morality and conscience - this new aggressive push by the establishment is leading to a situation wherein all humans will have to make a choice between Jehovahs right and wrong and the new secular morality pushed by UN.

31 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Simplified" NWT, which he "trashes" in his book.

I do not think it useful for in-depth studies either but I would not trash it....... the modern youth do not understand the older English expressions. It is for the new generation not for crusty old professors.

I like his thoughts on #3. I prefer street work to house to house. I do not like standing at the cart either....... too little action for me.  I like to engage people.... so I am all for the idea to do what you are good at or what you like....  That way you remain enthusiastic and on fire! 

[Srecko Sostar 2,026]

3 minutes ago, Arauna said:

An X chromosome can never become a Y...... that is science.

Thanks for respond.

I just saw few documentaries on TV about animals who changing sex as natural process. Also on internet few articles about that after watched TV.......... If they lied, i lied too.  :))