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Furuli's new e-book: "My Beloved Religion - And The Governing Body"

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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The reason that the GB can say ‘follow the direction of secular authority’ and still have that count as spiritual guidance is that (with some exaggeration) JWs can do it, and non-believers cannot.

School Principal in my work place also said to all employee stuff, we have to follow governmental direction. And what  is the point of your illustration?

I can easily, just for you, make connection between "direction of secular authority" and "spiritual guidance" WITHOUT any sort of religious organization and their leaders, in this case GB.

Please go to Romans chapter 13, and you will be able to understand what ties exists between God and "secular authority". God is Spirit and he put "servant with sword" to be HIS servant. I think that is some "spiritual" connections in question, that exists between them. God calls secular authorities as His servant. GB said how they are also God's "servant". 

According to Bible text God have servants all over the Earth. And some are atheists, some are religious, some are agnostics ..., What sort of ties people can have with God, but "spiritual" ? GB are not in some "privileged" position as mere "servants" in comparison to other God's "servants". Because they all are just "servants", and if God want to give his spirit, sorry, guidance, to some other "servants", who are GB to contradict God’s will ??!!

 

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10 minutes ago, César Chávez said:
3 hours ago, Anna said:

But my point was that just because someone does something right, is it proof of Jehovah's backing? And what if we do something that turns out to be wrong advice, as the GB has admitted (because they are fallible and can err) does that mean this is proof they do not have Jehovah's backing? I think it was just a really bad choice of words

Then it simply means, people that err with this standard of assumption has not fully understood the GB and the actions of the apostles. Agreeing with former members would not be, good advice or a good observation. Those that do so are asking for perfection of others, when those should start with themselves first.

I think that main problem all religion have, and JW too, is in this: People who lead a religion invoke God’s authority for every word they utter in front of people. GB is among the same class. When GB stops claiming that both, correct and false doctrines and instructions came from God, then they may be closer to God and  "truth".

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Quote TTH. The reason that the GB can say ‘follow the direction of secular authority’ and still have that count as spiritual guidance is that (with some exaggeration) JWs can do it, and non-believers cannot.

Perhaps Tom is only talking about Americans here. 

In the UK most people followed the instructions of the government. My son even told his employer that he wasn't going to work, and that was before lock down started here in England. He self isolated with my wife and I, as a family in one household. We even had a stock of food bigger than a GO BAG, and still have. 

Tom talks as if everyone outside that CCJW org is a criminal or rebel. It's that old JW talk, 'Don't mix with those outside they belong to the devil'. :)  Grow up Tom and get real.  That 'GB Helper' made himself and the CCJW look stupid by his statement. Live with it.  

 

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4 hours ago, Anna said:

I think it was just a really bad choice of words....and a little presumptuous. And was it really necessary for him to say it? Something like this surely would have been more appropriate and modest: "the advice that the GB are giving is proof that they really apply the scriptures in their life and are allowing

That’s not “proof” either and the same unholy trinity here would bellyache about those words no less than they do what Glock really did say.

I almost think that “prove’ should be stricken from the JW vocabulary. It is one more word that has been redefined to give it a narrow focus that it never exclusively had before. “Scientific proof” is all that people have in mind today, and if “scientific proof” was the order of the day, the stuff we have would not be called “faith.”

Should Glock be expected to use the word “prove” in the scientific sense? Not hardly. He is a Bible teacher. How does the Bible use the term? The New World Translation uses the word ‘prove’ 46 times. Not one of them is in the scientific sense. Only 2 or 3 is even in the legal sense. Typical are verses like Jesus “sending you out as sheep among wolves; so prove yourselves cautious as serpents and yet innocent as doves, (Matt 10:16)

“On this account, you too prove yourselves ready, because the Son of man is coming at an hour that you do not think to be it.” (Matt 24:44)

“But wanting to prove himself righteous, the man said to Jesus:...” (Luke 10:29)

“My Father is glorified in this, that you keep bearing much fruit and prove yourselves my disciples.” (John 15:8)

In fact, 

4 hours ago, Anna said:

And they did say it about themselves, because as I have already commented to Tom, everything that is published first gets approved (by the GB).

What do you suppose is the etymology of “approve?” Does anyone think it suggests scientific proof? Or does it not denote meeting the standards of someone with recognized stature? It is ridiculous that Brother Glock should be taken to task by narrow-minded sticklers for a single application of the word which will almost certainly not be his, nor be the dominant one of history.

Words change. There is no sense grousing about this. “Why so serious?” the Joker says, as he slits another throat. We may have to change on this as well—or just ignore the idiots and put pedal to the medal!

Sometimes I think we should do that with the word “cult.” The word has changed. Rather than resist it, it may be better to embrace the new meaning. Point to the etymology of the word. It stems from the same root as does the word “agriculture,” which literally means “care of the earth.” Ones who care for “the matters of God” would be an appropriate definition for “cult.” I could live with it.

One might even do what the cops did when their radical student “apostates” began tormenting them with the epithet “pigs”—doubling down when they saw that it got under their skin. Finally, one innovative officer decided to roll with it:

P - Pride

I - Intergritey

G- Guts

S - Service

Can Witnesses do the same? “To the adolescents I became an adolescent,” Paul said:

C - Courage

U- Unity

L - Love

T - Truth

One does not want to be like my (non-Witness) cousin, who grumbled till her dying day that she could no longer use the word “gay” because the homosexuals hijacked it. “I’m no prude,” she would day. “If they want to go AC-DC, that’s alright with me. (would she really wink just then?) But why couldn’t they invent their own word? Why did they have to take “gay?” She’d go on and on. I used to set her off just to watch the sparks fly. “She’s just mad that she can no longer speak of going to ‘gay Parie,’” I said to my right-wing brother. But my right wing brother had still not forgiven the French in the aftermath of the “Freedom Fries” fiasco. “Why  can’t she?” he muttered.

 

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36 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

In the UK most people followed the instructions of the government

Did you forget that I have television? I can see how obedient they are.

JWs have put themselves among company in which peer-pressure is going to nudge them in the safer direction. Non-Witnesses, many of them, (recall that I said “with some exaggeration”) have put themselves in a place where their peer-pressure will not. Do not think that peer-pressure is nothing. It is the reason that we look at our photos of yesteryear and marvel at how we ever could have thought those dorky styles back then did anything for us.

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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

People who lead a religion invoke God’s authority for every word they utter in front of people. GB is among the same class. 

So what you are saying, the Apostles had no authority to invoke the word of God, even though Jesus commissioned them to do just that? When Moses struck the rock, was Moses alone or was he in front of the people. Maybe you can clarify your position. 

Now, didn't Jesus separate church and state? What do you suppose Jesus was talking about when he mentioned "Give Caesar what is Caesars" Was Caesar a Sanhedrin or a man of state? Now think about Hebrews  13:17. What err do you see when someone from the ORG questions a leaders actions that has no basis for it, just outside influence and speculation. Does that not mean, that person is putting themselves in Moses chair? 

Why would that be presumptive? Their actions are signaling to others, they have the right to complain just like Furuli did. Was he correct to do that? NO! Since God's Holy Spirit would not have been with such a divisive person. 

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@TrueTomHarley I know what you are saying, and I understand why you are saying it. It's similar to being a literalist. But that quote " proof they have God's backing" says  exactly what it means, and essentially boils down to this: In context Br. Glock was talking about apostate lies putting doubts into peoples minds about the GB. So, "In case you doubt the wisdom of the GB because they are imperfect and sometimes make mistakes and you want proof that they have God's backing, well here is proof". (Despite the fact that anyone can issue similar guidelines, and HAS issued similar guidelines). But sorry, all it proves is that the GB have been diligent in watching the world, are wise in applying the Bible's wisdom, wise in applying the authorities' advice and that they are concerned for us and want us to stay safe..

Really, the praise goes to all the hard working CO's, elders, and publishers who willing cooperate and actually make all this work! Without the co-operation of everyone in the organization, the GB can give wonderful advice till they're blue in the face and have Jehovah standing right behind them what would it prove?
Come on Tom, just admit it, it was not the best argument to prove a point ( Br. Glocks) or choice of words. And you must admit that this is somewhat of a clumsy effort at reassurance that the GB do have God's backing and that we can trust them. I believe there has been some success on the part of opposers in bringing the friends away. It was confirmed by a trustworthy elder, as I already mentioned in one of my posts. Br. Glock's talk is what the opposers like to call damage control. I won't call it that, because I am not on the opposers side. But I can see how some could think that! Actually, to be honest, I find it rather exciting as it may indicate something drastic is going to have to happen soon (oh, you don't say!)
By the way, apart from the "trust the GB because we have proof they have God's backing" bit I thought the talk was very good.
 

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7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Should Glock be expected to use the word “prove” in the scientific sense? Not hardly. He is a Bible teacher. How does the Bible use the term? The New World Translation uses the word ‘prove’ 46 times. Not one of them is in the scientific sense.

And if you look at the NWT for related words, you will see something of further interest. In the related words below, the first number is the frequency in the pre-2013 NWT, and the second number is the NWT (revised).

prove 360/57, proved 273/30, proven 0/0, proves 23/1, proving 20/7 proof 21/8, proofs 2/1

for a total of 699 "proof" words, reduced to only 104. A drop of "7 times."

Except for the word "proof(s)" itself, the vast majority of these terms are carryovers from a favorite verb construction credited to F.W.Franz, apparently because he wanted to translate Jehovah's use of "ehyeh" to Moses with "I will prove to be" rather than just "I am." So to be consistent, he sometimes even took mundane phrases similar to "I will speak" and translated them as "I will prove to be speaking."

In other words, Jesus never says "prove yourselves cautious as serpents" he just said "be cautious as serpents."

Jesus never said: "On this account, prove yourselves ready," he just said "On this account, be ready."

And Jesus didn't say: ". . . prove yourselves my disciples," he just said ". . .you shall be my disciples." (Although in this last case the full construction is: "My Father is glorified in that you are bearing much fruit and [so that?] you shall be my disciples." So a translator might be justified in either adding the word "true" to disciples, or using "prove to be" because of the probable implication of the entire construction where the usual word for "and" can sometimes imply "so that.")

Although 600 of the 700 verb constructions were dropped in 2013, there was no real reason to keep the other 100 as carryovers, either. It was mostly a quirk of the old NWT where it gave an important "sound" to the phrase, but with very few times when it translated the true meaning of the verse. That's why in current Bible reading, the revised NWT simply removes the following cases of "prove" or "prove to" and just leaves it as "be."

(Exodus 10:7) . . . After that Pharʹaoh’s servants said to him: “How long will this man prove to be as a snare to us? . . .

(Exodus 12:5)  The sheep should prove to be sound, a male, a year old, for YOU. . . .

(Exodus 16:5) . . .And it must occur on the sixth day that they must prepare what they will bring in, and it must prove double what they keep picking up day by day.”

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1 hour ago, Anna said:

Come on Tom, just admit it, it was not the best argument to prove a point ( Br. Glocks) or choice of words.

 

On 7/8/2020 at 1:44 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

If Brother Glock want to say that ‘ewents’ prove God’s backing, I can say, “Well, ‘indicate’ might have been more scientifically precise,“ but otherwise I do not lose my cookies over it.

 

On 7/9/2020 at 1:39 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

In fact, I have no problem if Brother Glock does think that a woo factor is at work...it is just that you can’t “prove” it in the scientific sense. 

 

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22 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

more scientifically precise,“

 

22 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

it in the scientific sense

I am probably misunderstanding the point you are trying to make. I don't think science has anything to do with Br. Glock's use of the word "proof' in the context he used it in. I think you might be over thinking things....

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7 minutes ago, Anna said:

 I don't think science has anything to do with Br. Glock's use of the word "proof'

Perhaps br. Glock is "Bible scholar", a person who has studied a subject for a long time and knows a lot about it, an intelligent and well-educated person who knows a particular subject very well.

In that context he should be aware of using particular words and their meanings, in/for his talk .

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7 hours ago, César Chávez said:

So what you are saying, the Apostles had no authority to invoke the word of God, even though Jesus commissioned them to do just that? When Moses struck the rock, was Moses alone or was he in front of the people. Maybe you can clarify your position. 

Now, didn't Jesus separate church and state? What do you suppose Jesus was talking about when he mentioned "Give Caesar what is Caesars" Was Caesar a Sanhedrin or a man of state? Now think about Hebrews  13:17. What err do you see when someone from the ORG questions a leaders actions that has no basis for it, just outside influence and speculation. Does that not mean, that person is putting themselves in Moses chair? 

Why would that be presumptive? Their actions are signaling to others, they have the right to complain just like Furuli did. Was he correct to do that? NO! Since God's Holy Spirit would not have been with such a divisive person. 

People can "invoke" whatever they want in "proving" their position on something. A reference to a “higher instance” does not mean that the higher instance approves a “lower instance” on every or all doctrine, instruction, directive and policy. That is what i saying.

 

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50 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I thought the point I was making is that he could have chosen a different word and thus prevent this thread from coming into existence. Isn’t that your point as well?

Certainly. But now I do wonder why Br. Glock said what he said. Is there a feeling that the GB's trust worthiness is under fire and is it gaining some success?

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4 hours ago, Anna said:

proof they have God's backing"

I have a quote of anna above but I direct it to a few of the 'spiritual elite' over on this forum. 

I just marvel at you guys - you have lived in or like to be living in a literary world, or scholarly world  (or must I rather call it a critical thinking bubble), where every word is literally dissected.  A normal regular guy will not be able to come on this forum and chat with you because you guys will destroy his every word.....for real.  He cannot say what he thinks in the best words for him without an over-reaction.  I find it a pity that your thinking is so one-sided or should I call it self-centered?  (I think Furuli became the same....his scholarly habits caught up with him when he retired and he could only think of all the things he needed to critically analize.....  and then wrote his final dissertation .... pity.  He did not see the good things any longer or the mitigating things). He made his own puffed-up trap.

The reality in the world is:- it consists of mostly people who are plain, common people.  Yet, you do not make any excuses for people who have never learnt to put their thinking on paper.  There are many people out there who have never done this or looked at their writing self-critically.  They plainly say what they think or feel.  Once they have been shamed by a bunch of puffer upper poisonous fish... they run away or be silenced and you will not hear from them again.

Just remember, their experience in the world out there was totally different to yours. This does not mean that they can be dismissed or their ideas are de-legitimized and cannot be explored by a question... why do you say this..... etc.. The attitude here is that when you come here you must be able to converse with the real mature men! … 

Is it possible that you can broaden out your thinking?   I stand up for the common man..... please think of your actions or what you are doing. That was a brother!!!!!!  I have luckily been in both worlds.... and to tell you the truth, I prefer people like him... they say what they think…in the passionate words they know...... without first looking up the words on Google or looking it up in some historical book... or looking it up …or critical thinking or political correct or ….. well... I have said my say.

Think outside your box.

 

11 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

we have to follow governmental direction. And what  is the point of your illustration?

For your information - the GB closed our meetings BEFORE government regulation. So GB had caution and respect for life and most assuredly prayed to Jehovah for direction.  

11 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Grow up Tom and get real.  

Tom, most probably like me, does not humor modern-day Judas'..... He can see the difference between those who sincerely make mistakes, or are imperfect, and who sincerely are looking for answers...... and those who have made a conscious choice to oppose anything to do with GB, JWs - regardless of mitigating reasons or not.  He does not need me to stand up for him... he will just ignore you...… but I am quite sure he has matured up.

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

carryovers from a favorite verb construction

I am not a Hebrew scholar - but it is very closely related to Arabic..... and Arabic has causative verbs..... so I have no issue with Franz' translation of the causative verbs into English.  " to prove to be".   In Arabic it is understood that you already exist, therefore  (to be) is built into all its verbs. That is why 'I AM' is not the correct translation - because Jehovah would reveal himself as one who "causes to become" in Egypt with causing plagues and miracles.

I think the organization changed the verbs in the revised edition to simplify it.... because that was the purpose of the revised translation.

 

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2 hours ago, Arauna said:
15 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

we have to follow governmental direction. And what  is the point of your illustration?

For your information - the GB closed our meetings BEFORE government regulation. So GB had caution and respect for life and most assuredly prayed to Jehovah for direction.  

Dear Arauna, you misquoted, used my quote out of context. You didn't QUOTE my FULL SENTENCE. It would be better to quote whole sentence or paragraph. :)) Thanks in advance!

In general context, we have to follow governmental direction based on Romans 13 regulation or principle or command if you wish.

In critical thinking context, we have to interrogate, to question and to check many things that comes from "higher instance", secular or religious, because of  historically proven reasons.

Well, to go back on your comment, again. It is out of question, or it is not issue, did GB made good/bad decision about Covid 19, before or after government regulation. After all, GB did, i guess, collected health and medicine information from secular sources aka science (virologists, experts in the field of public health, institutions dealing with the study of infections etc) In this context, GB made decisions not on "spiritual" facts or possibilities revealed in Bible, but based on existing secular knowledge about Covid 19. When medical experts found more about disease, GB will also know more. NOT vice versa. Croatian crisis headquarters made better decisions at first, than many other governments and they made it BEFORE many others. Well, what that have to prove? Who has decided before, to close all public meetings ? GB or Croatian crisis headquarter ? :))

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9 hours ago, Anna said:
10 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I thought the point I was making is that he could have chosen a different word and thus prevent this thread from coming into existence. Isn’t that your point as well?

Certainly. But now I do wonder why Br. Glock said what he said. Is there a feeling that the GB's trust worthiness is under fire and is it gaining some success?

Br. Glock can't prevent nor fix damage GB + Helpers and WT Lawyers doing for very long time. 

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Quote @TrueTomHarleyDid you forget that I have television? I can see how obedient they are.

The UK lock down was obeyed by most people, not all, but most. The shops closed. The pubs closed. People were furloughed.  So many people stayed home and did food shopping online that for a month it was impossible to actually get a delivery slot. We had pre-planned and had a good stock of most items. The businesses that would normally deliver to hotels and eating establishments, changed their routine and started doing home deliveries to private houses. We bought lots from them. We are in a good position that cost doesn't matter. (money is for a protection).  You will of course know that the media hype up the things that sell the news. 

Peer-pressure is nothing if you have a strong character. And it is even less if you have a good Bible based conscience. Your problem Tom is that you seem to 'need to think' all non JWs are weak or wicked people.    As for my 60's clothing, it was smart and tidy, 70's was a bit different but it was all good fun. If you looked dorky that is your problem, I never looked dorky that's for sure. If looking different means looking dorky to you then it is you that lacks personality. Either that or you are so brainwashed by the CCJW that everything different seems wrong to you. 

 

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Quote @Anna  I believe there has been some success on the part of opposers in bringing the friends away. It was confirmed by a trustworthy elder, as I already mentioned in one of my posts.

It would be nice to have a deeper explanation of this comment above.

Is it 'opposers' that have led people away, OR, is it, Truth spoken that has led people away ?  The most horrible person on earth could still speak truth on some subjects. That truth could change the opinion of others. But the opposers of that 'horrible' person would say it was the person that led people away.... That is why, on here, I always Vote a comment and not a person. It is the message that is important not the person. 

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@Arauna  talks about ordinary people of less education, of which I am one. She says they cannot hold their own against some on here. I find that funny. Truth is truth and lies are lies no matter who a person is or whatever education they have had. And then it's even funnier when she decides to 'put me down' over my comment to Tom. @Anna basically said the same thing to Tom, only using different words. My words are basic and 'raw' because I am of lower education and therefore express myself in a 'raw' way. 

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1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

She says they cannot hold their own against some on here. 

Just remember : it is much easier to critisize than to build up, easier to destroy than to show love.  When you are ready to destroy, one can use just about use anything as a weapon and you can hold your own because it is easier to break than unify.   Try it on your wife and you will see I am speaking truth.  

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Victor Blackwell, a Witness attorney who defended many brothers before the various town courts of the American south during WWII days of conscription, told of his experience with one. The judge ordered him to shut up!—he, the defending attorney—or he would throw him into jail himself! “I looked around and I saw lawyers, prominent businessmen, and educated persons—I knew I wasn’t going to jail, so I said, ‘Your Honor, if we have reached the sorry state when justice has so disintegrated that an attorney is barred from defending his own client, then at that time the most appropriate place for me to be is behind bars with him.” (not an exact quote) Blackwell related at a special assembly in Niagara Falls how the judge’s face reddened and his veins stood out on his neck. A week later, he died of a stroke. “You killed our judge,” townspeople told him at his next trip to that area. “I”m sorry,” he replied, but it seemed that his degree of true remorse was suspect.

“I killed another judge,” he told the entertained audience, of whom I was one, and he went on to relate events in another town. Interestingly, he treated the judge’s of high courts with the greatest deference, especially those of the Supreme Court, whom he practically revered—as well as those justices of military courts—they were professionals who knew the law thoroughly, but the judges of some town courts were little more than popularly elected swaggering bullies popularly who often didn’t know much of anything other than what they wanted.

Now...let’s see if we can get 4Jah going. C’mon, let’s see what happens:

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Quote @Anna  I believe there has been some success on the part of opposers in bringing the friends away. It was confirmed by a trustworthy elder, as I already mentioned in one of my posts.

It would be nice to have a deeper explanation of this comment above.

Now, let us change the setting to that of Jesus on his final night on earth:

“About the ninth hour, Jesus called out with a loud voice, saying: “Eʹli, Eʹli, laʹma sa·bach·thaʹni?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matt 27:46)

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

It would be nice to have a deeper explanation of this comment above.

Okay—I admit it—it’s a little bit of a cheap shot. But nobody deserves it more than that piece of work 4Jah, who sits at the feet of Anna and JWI as though at Gamaliel’s, thankIng them profusely whenever they drop some nugget he thinks beneficial to his cause, and heehawing like a donkey throughout everything else they say.

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10 hours ago, Arauna said:

Tom, most probably like me, does not humor modern-day Judas'.

I sure find humor in them, however.

10 hours ago, Arauna said:

I think the organization changed the verbs in the revised edition to simplify it.... because that was the purpose of the revised translation.

Of course.

14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

In other words, Jesus never says "prove yourselves cautious as serpents" he just said "be cautious as serpents." Jesus never said: "On this account, prove yourselves ready," he just said "On this account, be ready."

I think that is hardly settled. Who is to say that Franz’s take on the language is inferior?

14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

was mostly a quirk of the old NWT where it gave an important "sound" to the phrase,

I don’t think that is such a sin, to speak of God or Christ in the superlative, to heighten their “importance.” Are they just good ‘ol boys that you might belly up to the bar with?

Still, I appreciate your input on things that happened away back then.

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5 minutes ago, Witness said:

Your use of adhominen attacks remind me

Wait till you see what’s coming your way soon. 

If he was committing perjury, he would be disbarred. Wait till you see if that happens before you crow. He just said something you did not like, which is not the same as “committing perjury.”

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1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Just remember : it is much easier to critisize than to build up, easier to destroy than to show love.  When you are ready to destroy, one can use just about use anything as a weapon and you can hold your own because it is easier to break than unify.   Try it on your wife and you will see I am speaking truth.  

Horrible suggestion but nothing that i wouldn't expect from a JW. My wife does nothing deserving of criticism. And she puts up with me so deserves praise. As for your idea that "it is much easier to critisize than to build up, easier to destroy than to show love." I totally disagree. It is just as easy to do both. Some of you JWs do have strange ideas about life. 

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There is a 4 letter word very suitable for MR HARLEY (although that word means something useful whereas Mr Harley obviously is not) and I'm sure he would love me to use it. His aim is to get me disfellowshipped from this Forum. OK tom enjoy trying. I still forgive you your slander against me. 

He is getting worrying though. He sounds as if he is heading toward a nervous breakdown. Mr Rook is no longer here, will tom be next to go ?? Watch this space :) 

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36 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Wait till you see if that happens before you crow. He just said something you did not like, which is not the same as “committing perjury.”

Oh, I see you added more to your initial comment.  

"He just said something you did not like" - Of course I don't like it, because it is a lie. 

"which is not the same as “committing perjury.” 

Perjury:  "the offense of willfully telling an untruth in a court after having taken an oath or affirmation."

He stated:

40 minutes ago, Witness said:

"Jehovah's Witnesses don't use the word, shun or shunning, they refer to it as disfellowshipped, disfellowshipping...

 

41 minutes ago, Witness said:

WT's infamous video bears the title,  

    Hello guest!
Shun Unrepentant Wrongdoers

 

41 minutes ago, Witness said:

Maybe because you don't care to possess such discernment - of what is truth and what is a lie?   

 

 

 

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42 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

If he was committing perjury, he would be disbarred

Does the court know the inside and out of jw . org?  This man is to represent an organization, in truth, and under oath.  

Yes, he will be "disbarred" by Jesus Christ and the Father....unless he repents.  

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5 hours ago, Witness said:

Does the court know the inside and out of jw . org?  This man is to represent an organization, in truth, and under oath.  

What am I thinking? Would an organization which calls itself “the truth”, yet has sputtered out a hundred plus years of lies, send out a representative who would tell the truth about his own organization? 

“ And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve."  2 Cor 11:12-15

 

Everything about the organization, is a masquerade.

 

Masquerade!
Paper faces on parade . . .
Masquerade!
Hide your face,
So the world will
Never find you!
Masquerade!
Every face a different shade . . .
Masquerade!
Look around -
There's another
Mask behind you!

Flash of mauve . . .
Splash of puce . . .
Fool and king . . .
Ghoul and goose . . .
Green and black . . .
Queen and priest . . . (Rev 2:20; 13:11; 18:7) (Ezek 44:6-9;2 Chron 13:9; 23:6; Mark 13:14; 2 Thess 2:3,4)
Trace of rouge . . .
Face of beast . . . (Dan 8:13; Rev 13:1,2,5-8, 11,12)
Faces . . .
Take your turn, take a ride
On the merry-go-round . . .(Isa 5:20)
In an inhuman race . . .

Eye of gold . . .
Thigh of blue . . .
True is false . . . (2 Thess 2:9,10)
Who is who . . .?
Curl of lip . . .


Swirl of gown . . .
Ace of hearts . . .
Face of clown . . .
Faces . . .
Drink it in, drink it up,
Till you've drowned (Rev 8:10,11)
In the light . . .
In the sound . . . 

But who can name the face . . .? 

(Phantom of the Opera)

 

    Hello guest!

 

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10 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Wait till you see what’s coming your way soon. 

If he was committing perjury, he would be disbarred. Wait till you see if that happens before you crow. He just said something you did not like, which is not the same as “committing perjury.”

Mr Tom, the Author of two books, did you watch this short video? Do you read WT publication?

If your answer is yes, than please repent for your bad comment. :)) 

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10 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

more than popularly elected swaggering bullies popularly who often didn’t know much of anything other than what they wanted.

I think that is why there is so much injustice in many places. The court system is broken.  I marvel at some of the decisions taken these days. 

10 hours ago, Witness said:

Jehovah's Witnesses don't use the word, shun or shunning, they refer to it as disfellowshipped, disfellowshipping...."

I think we can refer to it in a modern word of our choice, which serves the purpose, as it embodies what the BIBLE tells us to do with rebellious people. We cannot use an old Greek word...... If you belong to a club you have to follow the rules of the club or you are shunned/disfellowshipped/ told not to come back.  Just try it ...and behave badly at a golf club and see what happens to you.  As video shows - disfellowshipped means spiritual contact lost and one can be re-instated.

This very idea was tried in court a while back was it not? When a gay couple took a baker to court for refusing to bake their wedding cake.  The baker was shunning them was he not?  he did not even want to take their money.  You see, legally we are on shaky ground here.  When these kind of people start winning court cases then they can come for all religion... force you to accept LGBTQ and what else?  And this is what our dear friend MR 4JAH does not understand... He is so blinded by being right (or finding fault)  that he does not get the subtle nuances of these things. The autonomous decisions of different religions is being eroded...…(JWs included) .. in a big way at present.  So when he gleefully publishes these clips..... I just shake my head.

We know the system is coming for ALL religion soon and the world is heating up to it.  Satan is busy getting ready to create a counterfeit world government to bring peace and security to the earth.....and Satan's moral rules will be forced onto all of us such as LGBTQ, pedophilia may be included, no rights to shun, no male elders (according to them it is a white supremacist, colonizer, patriarchal idea which comes from the patriarchal bible which has been the oppressor of humankind for a long time), vaccinations and blood forced on you...…...and replaced by atheism and the immorality and free sex and free whatever now already taught in most schools. 

(By the way I am not antivaccine but I read this morning how they are making it and I believe it has potential to harm DNA in the body - trials started in UK, brazil and South Africa and Oxford university is doing it -  big money can come from it).  Just like before the flood there is a horrible arrogance and a changing of human DNA.  They are messing with things they should be leaving alone.)

 

10 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

I totally disagree. It is just as easy to do both. Some of you JWs do have strange ideas about life. 

Depends on your inclination and the subject.  Here on this forum you hold up well because there is only one view spewed by you.. a destructive one.  I think I can make a good case for NOT watching videos against JWs.  You are a good example of it ...... your hate-…... seems to be fueled by watching all these videos against JWs which are spinned and propagandized in a certain way.

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16 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I think I can make a good case for NOT watching videos against JWs.  You are a good example of it ...... your hate-…... seems to be fueled by watching all these videos against JWs which are spinned and propagandized in a certain way.

Arauna, it seems you might be a little confused about who posted the video.  It was me, not @4Jah2me.  As I recall, it is difficult for him to hear any videos posted here, at least at one point.  Perhaps that has changed by now.  

 

18 minutes ago, Arauna said:

If you belong to a club you have to follow the rules of the club or you are shunned/disfellowshipped/ told not to come back.  Just try it ...and behave badly at a golf club and see what happens to you.

You must play golf, since I've heard this example from you before.

24 minutes ago, Arauna said:

As video shows - disfellowshipped means spiritual contact lost and one can be re-instated.

As the Watchtower shows, young adults - children - have been forced to leave their homes when disfellowshipped.  The lawyer was lying.  

 

19 minutes ago, Arauna said:

If you belong to a club you have to follow the rules of the club or you are shunned/disfellowshipped/ told not to come back. 

Should we be comparing the rules of a club to our worship of God?  

I know you've seen this before:

Awake 1947 January 8 page 27 excommunication

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10 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

His aim is to get me disfellowshipped from this Forum.

Do you really think that? I think you are completely wrong and are confusing this forum with a congregation. Nobody wants anybody to get thrown out of here. There would be no discussions otherwise. Plus, I'm sure you are an inspiration for some of his fictional characters in his books 😄

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14 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Quote @Anna  I believe there has been some success on the part of opposers in bringing the friends away. It was confirmed by a trustworthy elder, as I already mentioned in one of my posts.

It would be nice to have a deeper explanation of this comment above.

Is it 'opposers' that have led people away, OR, is it, Truth spoken that has led people away ? 

When people no longer want to live as Jehovah's Witnesses, for whatever reason, and an opportunity presents itself where they feel justified in leaving, then they will eagerly grab that opportunity. Very often this has nothing to do with any actual "truth" or "facts" but everything to do with that person's attitude and desire to do what they want. With the internet, these opportunities present themselves much more frequently and readily than in the past. There have always been opposers, but now they are finding more of a voice than they ever had before....

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27 minutes ago, Anna said:

When people no longer want to live as Jehovah's Witnesses, for whatever reason, and an opportunity presents itself where they feel justified in leaving, then they will eagerly grab that opportunity. Very often this has nothing to do with any actual "truth" or "facts" but everything to do with that person's attitude and desire to do what they want. With the internet, these opportunities present themselves much more frequently and readily than in the past. There have always been opposers, but now they are finding more of a voice than they ever had before....

This is partially correct, but not for all who left JW church. In videos from ex-JW i heard some of them complaining how they were not been able to celebrate Christmas or birthdays. I don’t go into the theological justification of their demands, but I don’t think it’s something that should be crucial to leaving or staying in the organization.

There are so many other “details, bigger and smaller that should decide someone’s departure. Many things have been discussed at this Forum and, you will agree with me, they go far beyond, outweigh the issue of celebrating birthdays. It is possible that in some people there may be some individual trigger to change the state of feelings about the organization. But that moment when that happens is just a continuation of a process that has been in that individual’s subconscious and consciousness for a long/longer time. It doesn’t happen “overnight”, that decision is not impulsive. 

I observed the children of one mother in the former congregation. Teenagers. As they grew older and reached adulthood, their attitude toward belonging to the JW changed. The eldest sister left JW immediately after coming of age. The younger sisters soon after one by one also left the organization. I guess, I'm actually sure, that they didn't have problems with purely theological dilemmas or what the leadership of the organization was like, but with personal freedoms and pressures from mothers and elders (they were forbidden to associate with their father who was excluded many years ago and I think it was trigger for their decisions).

This example, about issue of (MUST) shunning own dfd father was too much for them. And their reaction was completely  natural and normal. WT JWorg and lawyer in video presented showed double face, showed hypocrisy. And want to look good in front of "secular", "worldly" people. They want to hold Image of Organization. And that "detail" is also "trigger" for some JW people to "come out of her" aka organization.

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On 7/10/2020 at 11:10 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

People can "invoke" whatever they want in "proving" their position on something. A reference to a “higher instance” does not mean that the higher instance approves a “lower instance” on every or all doctrine, instruction, directive and policy. That is what i saying.

Well it should make sense first. Making excuses to retain a nonsensical argument becomes a problem when both views are in error. This in effect lies with former witnesses that just lost their ability to criticize, since most of that criticism is no self inflected. Therefore, regardless if it's a position of "proving" with "higher" or "lower" regard to human fallacies becomes as to a greater degree of imperfection. The last I looked, the Watchtower GB do not purposely oppose Gods will or commands. They hold themselves to a higher degree to accept the "responsibility" to tend Gods sheep. 

I don't think there is any, one GB thinking they have found a way to fool God. Raymond Franz probably tried, but then again, he failed. The same "lower instance" can be found with Dr. Furuli in his new book of "open oped" to the world where he believes complaining openly will somehow change how God runs his earthly organization. A view echoed by not just by former  witnesses but a few diehard current members which Furuli is one of them.

Here's the thing Srecko, just think for a moment that Dr Furuli complaint made any sense now that we are in the tip of the end. What was the purpose of waiting so long? Not only does he nullify his recent book to be by Gods authority, but has nullified all his past works. Credibility runs a long way. In essence, he rebuffed himself. In this case, just like Moses, Furuli struck the rock without claiming it was by Gods will that everyone should receive water. To them, it should have been the "living water" of God. There lies the difference with responsible men. They are NOT influenced by complaining members but continue to focus on Gods will by giving to anyone that wishes, Gods living water. Jesus started it, and it continues after a long, long absence of human understanding.

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1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

The last I looked, the Watchtower GB do not purposely oppose Gods will or commands.

It seems, sounds good ... from your perspective. And it is reflection of your "faith" and "trust" in God and GB. I can't and don't want join you in such evaluation of GB work. I want to believe in human sincerity and from that point i am ready to believe how many JW people also not purposely oppose God's will. Nevertheless, their or mine "beliefs" does not nullify reality how people, generally, oppose God's will, purposely or unintentionally. Result of both "motives" is/are ........ bad  consequences. With that consequences are; years or decades of wrong, err doctrines, teachings, directives, deeds, words and emotions. And all that is, religiously said, false worship. Well, purposely or not, false worship IS false worship. And WT printed tons of magazines, books and public talks about it, not showing any "mercy" to those other who not worshiping God in "proper" aka JW way of worship. WT publication criticized and judged not only other religion's doctrines but also behavior of their's members.

When WT Management  in past or today, aka GB+Helpers, speaking how this or that doctrine and interpretation and instruction is "God's thought" or "Jesus's thought" or "biblically grounded" and after they denied it and replaced with "new divine thoughts", what is that? Opposing God? Opposing sound mind? Fooling God? Opposing XY, etc? 

Dr Furuli will need to live with their own past and with their own future. And find something to stay "alive".

Thanks for respond and thoughts.  

 

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13 hours ago, Witness said:

comparing the rules of a club to our

It is a similar situation - where one must adhere to rules.  Unfortunately at secular clubs one usually just gets the rules typed out.  In Jehovah's organization you know what the rules are when you become a JW - there is no excuse.  Even after a mistake one is not shunned unless you show rebelliousness.  

I am a reader of history - I know what Catholic excommunication means....  how can you even compare what is written there to what we do.... like comparing and orange with mars.

10 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

but I don’t think it’s something that should be crucial

It is not what you think that is important but what Jehovah thinks about idolatry.....  he is a jealous god and does not tolerate paraphernalia of other gods pushed in his face. Do you not read the old testament?  And it was one of the instructions at acts 15:29 which Christians also have to adhere to..... that and abstinence from blood. 

 

3 hours ago, César Chávez said:

nullified all his past works.

A very true statement.  How sad to serve so long and in the end to be found wanting.  It can happen to any of us - we can lose our life when we stop to do introspection and look for flaws only outside yourself.

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2 hours ago, Arauna said:

I am a reader of history - I know what Catholic excommunication means....  how can you even compare what is written there to what we do.... like comparing and orange with mars.

I know what it means also.  I was raised a Catholic, and while the Watchtower has clamped down with a heavy hand about  disfellowshipping and shunning, the Catholic religion has relaxed its view on excommunication.  

Think how you view me, an apostate, and someone who rejects the organization.  I do not reject God and Christ, but my label "apostasy" is viewed as the worst of the worst of the apostate labels one could receive.  Any JW in my area cannot make eye contact with me, since I am evil....and apparently full of hate. :) 

I'll borrow a quote from the article I posted, replacing "Watchtower" where needed:

"This means that you are looked upon with the blackest contempt by the "Watchtower", being cursed and damned with the devil and his angels".  Actually, there is a JW on here who has alluded to similar words about myself. 

Just as Gockentin said about the organization, "there is just no other way to succeed",      this would mean everyone on the outside of the organization, is cursed and damned with the devil and his angels.

Another quote:

"This is Cannon law which the "Watchtower hierarchy" seeks to enforce on the pretext that it is God's Law"

So you see, the comparison is not "oranges to mars", but oranges to oranges. 

 

 

  

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Quote @Arauna Depends on your inclination and the subject.  Here on this forum you hold up well because there is only one view spewed by you.. a destructive one.  I think I can make a good case for NOT watching videos against JWs.  You are a good example of it ...... your hate-…... seems to be fueled by watching all these videos against JWs which are spinned and propagandized in a certain way.

I READ news articles and i try my best to read them from different sources. I don't watch videos. I can never understand what they are saying on the videos. As for HATE, Arauna HATE seems to be YOUR favorite word. I would say you have OCD about it. :)  I love those close to me as i know them well enough to have reason to love them. JWs don't have love, they just pretend. It is so obvious because they would not be able to just switch it off like they do if it was real love. I still haven't seen any true use of scripture, that would say SHUN those that leave the CCJW for the right reasons. 

 

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Quote @Anna Very often this has nothing to do with any actual "truth" or "facts" but everything to do with that person's attitude and desire to do what they want.

Do you live in a cave ? Do you not know about the EARTHWIDE CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE in the CCJW ? 

Do you not know that the GB refuse to apologise to the victims of CSA ?  Do you not know that the GB / Lawyers refuse to cooperate with the USA Superior Authorities  ? The GB refuse to hand over that 23 year Database of PAEDOPHILES IN THE USA part of the CCJW. 

And you say it has nothing to do with TRUTH. In fact the GB have nothing to do with TRUTH. 

Then you have the GB spouting about the 'Final part of the Final day, of the Final Days' BUT the Org did all that in the 1960's Watchtower. And the 'Stay Alive till 75'.

Yes the internet makes all this TRUTH available to everyone. So, people that are looking to serve God properly will turn away from the CCJW / Watchtower. Sensible people will keep their eyes on the Org to see when or if God through Christ will clean out the disgusting things in the Org, or if God through Christ will set up a new Org. What true Christian people want to do is serve God properly, hence they leave the CCJW.   Others, that use the Org as a social club, are too frightened to leave, because they will lose all of their 'friends' 

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Quote @Anna Do you really think that? I think you are completely wrong and are confusing this forum with a congregation. Nobody wants anybody to get thrown out of here.

Well someone had John Butler 'thrown out of here' that's for sure, and yes I think Tom wants me thrown out of here.  

This forum is like a congregation, run by elders, and probably used by the GB helpers as feedback.  JWI could be working for both sides :), double spy. 

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19 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Well someone had John Butler 'thrown out of here' that's for sure, and yes I think Tom wants me thrown out of here.

All that repetition by JB about how the GB could be "taken out" either by God directly or through the hands of humans (and that it would happen sooner or later) was probably interpreted by some here as a semi-veiled threat. I remember exactly what you said at the time, and never took it as all that threatening. But someone did. Perhaps more than one person. And the action taken in removing JB was probably made at an admin level, not by any of those who might volunteer as moderators. I would not have thought you should be kicked out, but a website owner probably could face some kind of legal scrutiny if someone carried through on a threat, and they had let such talk go on.

Personally, I don't want anyone thrown out of here. There are many things I don't like about the content of several of your posts, but I'm sure there are things you don't like about mine, too. I can't believe all those "laughing" emojis I get from you are given because you think I am saying something comedic, especially when it's little more than a scripture quote that you appear to be laughing at.

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20 hours ago, Witness said:

You must play golf, since I've heard this example from you before.

It is a good example though..... I was making a point

6 hours ago, Witness said:

"apostasy" is viewed as the worst of the worst

Is that not viewed as such in the bible?  But that does not make you rethink your situation?  I feel for you but you are doing it to yourself by your stubborn attitude.  Instead you prefer to always rale against the organization that taught you the truth about the ransom sacrifice and god's name.  Without them you would not have been in the privileged position you were in.  But like an unthankful dog you still bite the hand that fed you.  Think what you are doing to yourself. You seem to be all over the place! All it take is a little humility!  There were anointed in first century that were shunned and came back!

6 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Do you not know that the GB refuse to apologise to the victim

I am sure if they saw these persons in private they would definitely apologize (even though they personally were not the perpetrators)…… but you obviously do not understand the implications of legally apologizing..... that is totally a different matter. 

We JWs do NOT condone pedophilia ….or any form of porneia…... so why should we apologize in court or public for something we as an organization we do not condone?  The organization has sinning individuals in it and in this world the entire system is imperfect - and to top this off one cannot expect 100% perfect way of dealing with every case.  Expecting this would expect perfection, perfect judgment and seeing into everyone's heart!  Ask your self - how would I have done if I had to judge this matter.  Bring me any organization that has dealt with pedophilia perfectly a 100 percent of the time!  Legal organizations cannot even do it - and they have child psychologists top advisors - the lot!  This is why the Australian government had the inquiry in the first place because there were gaps in the laws they needed to close up!  

I think I know more than most about the Jews, the Muslims and some other religious denominations where pedophilia and child suffering is much worse than people can ever dream it to be...… but yet these ignorant people do not expect perfect case handling from them - if a case ever comes to the fore.... lol - because people are too afraid of the religious leaders.  This is like expecting a fools dream in the real world. But they expect 100% perfect case handling from JWs.  

Pedophilia is everywhere  is very prevalent an even covered up in courts of law (Epstein, gangs in UK). There is a case that went on for several years in Brooklyn USA in the ultra orthodox Jewish community. A Jewish school teacher fled to Israel (the school paid her flight because her husband was a Rabbi) and because she was prominent the accusers could not get her extradited for several years from Israel - the government and Rabbis covered it up in Israel.....   Nothing much in newspapers.  Not to speak of UK where the court system covers up big-time.  So why should we apologize for not handling every case that comes up with perfection..? When courts themselves find it hard to find enough evidence to convict?   DO you live under a rock or something when you expect 100 percent people in JWs to never have a secret sinner? …. And when we do get enough proof and shun a sinner then then you are the first guys to criticize this? Where is the sympathy for the shunned person you say?   This kind of double speak or double tongue is often found in those who do not understand both sides of this issue. 

6 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Yes the internet makes all this TRUTH available to everyone

Yes - those are the very ones who have been disciplined by JW and turned to defaming.... but they do not tell the public that they were sinning or in which capacity.... 

One question:  when are you going to get ready for the end?  You think a world-wide lockdown is important? … similar to Jerusalem when the Romans came and surrounded the city the first time, you do not think it is significant at all?  Putin himself is now president for life... and what did he do this week?  started putting journalists in jail.  He has a port in Syria now and now he is expanding into Africa working with Libya - to get access to the port.   So what must all happen for you to realize the world is a little deeper in the cesspit than we realize.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Arauna said:

s that not viewed as such in the bible?  But that does not make you rethink your situation?  I feel for you but you are doing it to yourself by your stubborn attitude.  Instead you prefer to always rale against the organization that taught you the truth about the ransom sacrifice and god's name.  Without them you would not have been in the privileged position you were in.  But like an unthankful dog you still bite the hand that fed you.  Think what you are doing to yourself. You seem to be all over the place! All it take is a little humility!  There were anointed in first century that were shunned and came back!

"that taught you the truth about the ransom sacrifice and god's name"  No, they didn't.  I was not lacking in religion before I became a JW.  I was well aware of why Jesus came to earth, and am even more keen to understanding that since leaving the WT, as well as the true role of the anointed.  And absolutely no, they have not taught me "god's name".  Through research that people all over the earth can tap into, they can find that the name "Jehovah" has been existence for a long time. (400 years or so)  You can thank the Catholics for that.  However, saying that name means nothing.  Learning to know God is the beginning of understand His true name.  I am finally on that path, without the need to please men who desire to rule over every JW - including God's holy priesthood.  

Arauna, I have no desire to return to the organization/idol.   I do not regret being labeled an apostate, because it is an empty word.  I realize I had actually turned away from Jesus and the Father by participating in doctrines  - a "different gospel" according to men while in the organization.    For that transgression against my only Rock, I have repented.  I am wondering how comparing doctrine of two similar religions, your's and the Catholic Church, using myself as an example regarding excommunication and disfellowshipping, turned into my being an "unthankful dog".  You seem to be all over the place! 

"I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.

But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ."  Gal 1:6-12

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Witness said:

I was not lacking in religion before I became a JW.  I was well aware of why Jesus came to earth

OK dear, I am done.  Jesus put his SOUL in death.  That is the crux of the ransom sacrifice.  That guarantees our resurrection because Christ was really dead (body, soul, breath - did not exist any longer) and he was resurrected by his father...…the life-giver........that TRUTH very few people on earth understand because churches do not teach this. JWs teach this. That is what brought me to the truth - the fact that Jesus put his soul in death.  If you do not get that, understand this fundamental truth, then you never were a good witness in the first place (one that understood everything about the ransom) and impossible to be anointed.  You do  not even understand the ransom sacrifice properly - so Jehovah can forgive you for all that and even your rebellion.  Jews are starting to wake up about the ransom.... Some have discovered Isaiah 53 the last verses.... which uses the word SOUL to indicate that Jesus was prophesied to die.

Either you make a decision to study again and get this straight or go on playing the victim in the world out there and teach your disciples falsehoods about Jesus death. If you are not humble enough you will NOT do this and you will have to be accountable for that in front of Jehovah.

2 hours ago, Witness said:

"that taught you the truth about the ransom sacrifice and god's name" 

Yes - the JWs teach the TRUTH about the ransom sacrifice  - if you do not understand this..... then I suspect there is a lot more you do not understand.  I feel sad for you.  YOU will have to put your pride in your pocket and beg Jehovah's forgiveness. 

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@JW Insider  BUT JB never even got one warning, and it would have been the moderators that reported JB to admin. It was nothing to do with 'threats to the GB' was it ? It was the true fact that things could happen if God wanted them to happen. I seriously do think all this info' on this forum, and other forums etc,  is used by the GB helpers as feedback, and I believe that some Elders on here deliberately push people to give more info'. BUT when JB gave true info it wasn't liked, so he had to be removed. It seems the GB and their helpers are frightened of losing their power. (And yes I do expect to get thrown off here for being truthful  ). 

Quote JWI : I can't believe all those "laughing" emojis I get from you are given because you think I am saying something comedic, especially when it's little more than a scripture quote that you appear to be laughing at.

I laugh if i find things funny. And i find plenty of things funny on here. But i laugh at you because you jump from one side of the fence to the other and then back again. You'll make a comment which shows some stupidity of the GB and when I pick up on it, then you jump to their defence. It really is funny JWI.  I quite often show my wife your comments. 

Quote @Arauna : We JWs do NOT condone pedophilia ….or any form of porneia…..

How do you know ? Have you asked ALL JWs ?  Obviously some JWs loved paedophilia as it was kept hidden in the Org for a very long time and was committed by Elders, Ministerial Servants and congregants. It is still kept hidden in your wonderful America because you wonderful GB refuse to hand over the sick information to the Superior Authorities that they tell others to obey. 

You say that I accuse all JWs, but you are trying to clear all JWs of blame. Sorry it doesn't work. Remember the internet is now full of the Child Sexual Abuse info' within the CCJW Earthwide. It can no longer be kept hidden from view. The scripture says things committed in darkness will come out into the light. And how true that is. 

Quote Arauna One question:  when are you going to get ready for the end? 

I am ready. I don't expect to survive Armageddon. Hopefully I will die before. I'm 70 and those with medical knowledge told me 5 years ago that i have prostate cancer. Add to that the high blood pressure etc, bang.  I live one day at a time and thank God for the life i have, but I know that I sin a lot. Plus the point that your GB etc say that if I'm not a JW then I won't be saved at Armageddon, so I don't have any hope do I :) ?  I don't take it too seriously Arauna. I've had 70 years of life. That's enough for me. Most of it was horrible, so I don't mind being dead and knowing nothing at all. 

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Totally off topic but. Google are telling me this forum is 'Not Secure' and keep giving my red triangle warnings. 

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40 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

It really is funny JWI.  I quite often show my wife your comments. 

You mean the wife whom you said deserves sainthood for putting up with you? Give her a flower from me, also, will you?

40 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

How do you know ? Have you asked ALL JWs ?

Maybe @Araunadid not—she’s sort of lazy—but I did. Eight and a half million of them, I asked every one of them, it took all afternoon—just so I would have an answer for you.

40 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

I don't expect to survive Armageddon....I know that I sin a lot.

You blasted idiot! Don’t sin! Put yourself somewhere that you will be aided not to sin. Put yourself somewhere that you can get your head around just how the ransom of God’s son works. Put yourself somewhere that you can appreciate how Paul can say ‘what I wish to do, I do not do,‘ and yet still say that he has run the race to the finish.

40 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

I've had 70 years of life. That's enough for me. Most of it was horrible, so I don't mind being dead and knowing nothing at all. 

Spurning God’s free gift, are you? Stop doing that! Life was horrible? I won’t challenge that. Yet, what does the Word say of God’s promise? “The former things will not be called to mind.” Where’s the faith?! Even the most horrible nightmare people do not retain in their conscous mind. God cannot do even more than that? If nothing else, your long-suffering wife deserves to see you healed up.

You are a piece of work, 4Jah. You know you are. That does not mean that I am not, as with most others here, and everywhere else. It’s the human reality—a condition of the fallen flesh. Drop this ridiculous obsession against the GB and make peace with the earthly organization. Whatever it takes. It sure doesn’t appear that Witness’s FB page is helping you any, nor her upcoming project to quote the entire book of Jeremiah for the purpose of demonstrating that her rivals suck.

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25 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Totally off topic but. Google are telling me this forum is 'Not Secure' and keep giving my red triangle warnings. 

It was warning about you. But you can yet get your act together—see prior post.

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Quote TrueTom Harley  You mean the wife whom you said deserves sainthood for putting up with you? 

Misquoting me again Tom. I said she does not deserve criticism from me. And it was very strange that Arauna suggested i do such a thing. But then ............. 

Quote TTH : You blasted idiot! Don’t sin! 

We all sin Tom. Sometimes it is accidentally, sometimes deliberately. 

” Where’s the faith?  I have faith that God through Christ will accomplish all He wants to accomplish. And Christ will judge my wife separately to me. I try to be realistic in my faith and my thoughts. Although most of you do not think I am. 

Quote TTH : " Drop this ridiculous obsession against the GB .."   I can imagine someone in the Sanhedrin saying to Jesus ' Drop this ridiculous obsession against the Pharisees'.. I hope you get the point here

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7 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

But i laugh at you because you jump from one side of the fence to the other and then back again. You'll make a comment which shows some stupidity of the GB and when I pick up on it, then you jump to their defence.

I defend them as elders who are taking on a huge responsibility in leading some major efforts to distribute Bibles and Bible-based publications around the world to fellow Witnesses and for non-Witnesses, too. I do not defend them as the equivalent of "the faithful and discreet slave." That, to me, and perhaps even according to the words of Brother Jackson of the GB, is a pretty presumptuous and haughty assumption, therefore not in keeping with being faithful and discreet. I am making an assumption that this is a serious error, but it does not discredit all the work they do. It's just a mistake of interpretation. The GB admit that this will sometimes happen. Jesus' anointed disciples made serious mistakes too. And not that this is an excuse, but we see it did not disqualify the work and zeal they showed. Remember how Apollos was zealous and aglow with the spirit, even though he was only acquainted with John's baptism. He even "gave himself" an assignment to go over into Achaia, and Priscilla and Aquila supported it fully.

(Acts 18:24-27) . . .Now a Jew named A·polʹlos, a native of Alexandria, arrived in Ephʹe·sus; he was an eloquent man who was well-versed in the Scriptures. 25 This man had been instructed in the way of Jehovah, and aglow with the spirit, he was speaking and teaching accurately the things about Jesus, but he was acquainted only with the baptism of John. 26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, and when Pris·cilʹla and Aqʹui·la heard him, they took him into their company and explained the way of God more accurately to him. 27 Further, because he wanted to go across to A·chaʹia, the brothers wrote to the disciples, urging them to receive him kindly. So when he got there, he greatly helped those who through God’s undeserved kindness had become believers;

Where testing the scriptures shows me that the GB are right, I support them fully. But I'm also a bit outspoken if I think they might be wrong.

I have a feeling that you are too quick to jump on any place where someone finds a reason not to support a specific teaching of the GB, and you want to explode that into proof that the GB are completely wrong on all things, when we are talking about very few things out of hundreds of perfectly good interpretations.

You recently asked about a translation issue where I think that the great majority of the 700 verses that were translated with the "prove to be" construct in the NWT were unnecessary, and some potentially misleading -but not linguistically wrong. But this is a translator's choice, and it was used to create a certain gravitas or "sacred" sound, much like quoting the KJV today gives a kind of gravitas or "sacred" sound when used in a sermon of otherwise modern English. (The NWT got rid of 85% of these "prove-to-be" constructs in 2013.)

But how quick would you be to jump on other translators who make translation choices? (Some other translators even made the same [prove-to-be] choice for the "causative" verb rendering in some of the same places found in the NWT.) In reading Joel in the NET version, for example, there are multiple footnotes that admit that words were added that were not in the Hebrew. For example, the note on Joel 2:25:

(Joel 2:25, NET) I will make up for the years

    Hello guest!
  that the ‘arbeh-locust
    Hello guest!
 
consumed your crops
    Hello guest!
 

The footnote for "3" says:

tn The term “your crops” does not appear in the Hebrew, but has been supplied in the translation for the sake of clarity and smoothness.

They simply added a couple of words to the Bible. In reality, nearly every verse is filled with choices for the translators. Just three verses earlier, it appears that they made a choice that I would disagree with:

(Joel 2:22, NET) Do not fear, wild animals!

    Hello guest!
  For the pastures of the wilderness are again green with grass.

The footnote says:

tn Heb “beasts of the field.”

For me, "beasts of the field," the literal Hebrew, was much more appropriate, because this is especially addressing the problem of animals that pasture, like sheep, goats, and cattle, which are often domesticated beasts. "Wild beasts" might be more consistent with how the NET translated the term elsewhere, but it gives the idea that it includes wild lions and bears and hyenas, for example. This particular choice can therefore end up being misleading. I don't know if I mentioned it before, but I took four years (7 semesters) of Hebrew in college, and I really love this kind of nerdy nit-picking when it comes to translation choices. But it's not that I think it's terribly important in the long run. It's not the kind of "adding to" and "taking away" from the words of a scroll that Revelation warns against.

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The GB makes mistakes. “Stay Loyal With Queen Zenobia and Obi Wan Kenobia!” some traveling overseers were parroting—they got it right from HQ!. She came crashing to the ground yesterday with no one to mourn her—with no one to say “Too bad, too bad, you great hen!” What a flip-flop to treat the old girl with such disrespect! How can God not be displeased?

 

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21 hours ago, Arauna said:

You do  not even understand the ransom sacrifice properly - so Jehovah can forgive you for all that and even your rebellion. 

Aren’t you being somewhat presumptuous in thinking that I don’t comprehend anything about the ransom, given my short note in response to you?  Is it because it is impossible outside the organization to grow in the meaning of Christ’s sacrifice?  You believe I must repent because of…what?  Because I left an EARTHLY organization that has spoken lies, and found in SATAN’S realm, the father of the lie, to instead worship God and Jesus Christ in SPIRIT and TRUTH, the type of worshipers that God is seeking?( John 4:23,24)  JWs speak of Christ, but attribute salvation to an organization. This alone, is blasphemy.  Acts 4:12  It is pretty ironic for you, a JW, who relies on an organization to bring you through “Armageddon”, to say I don’t understand Christ’s ransom. 

21 hours ago, Arauna said:

That guarantees our resurrection because Christ was really dead (body, soul, breath - did not exist any longer) and he was resurrected by his father...…the life-giver........that TRUTH very few people on earth understand because churches do not teach this. JWs teach this.

What guarantees our hope of eternal life is our obedience to Christ’s teachings. 

Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."  John 14:23

Yes, he bore the sins of mankind. (1 Pet 2:24) He opened the door to life and light, in a dark world. John 10:9-16  JWs choose another door, where "thieves" rob individuals of truth by their false teachings and false doctrines.   He suffered grueling persecution by Satan more so than any other human up to that point.  He died for TRUTH. (John 14:6) But, even when on earth, he retained the spirit of life from God. 

In him was life, and that life was the light of menThat light shines in the darkness, and yet the darkness did not overcome it.”  John 1:4,5

 “The Spirit is the one who gives life. The flesh doesn’t help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.”  John 6:63)

21 hours ago, Arauna said:

Christ was really dead (body, soul, breath - did not exist any longer)

The spirit of a man no longer exists at death. (1 Cor 2:10-16)  When his fleshly body died, he became a life-giving spirit, and he was spiritually alive in the abyss  where he made “proclamation to the spirits in prison”, before his physical body was raised up on the third day.  1 Cor 15:45; 1 Pet 3:18,19

21 hours ago, Arauna said:

Yes - the JWs teach the TRUTH about the ransom sacrifice  - if you do not understand this..... then I suspect there is a lot more you do not understand.  I feel sad for you.  YOU will have to put your pride in your pocket and beg Jehovah's forgiveness. 

I will not look back at what I left. (Luke 17:32,33)  My hope and faith is in the Father and Jesus Christ. You really believe I must ask for forgiveness for listening to them, to the Word of God, instead of false doctrine?

Perhaps you may want to reflect on this passage:

"But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christthe righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.  Phil 3:7-11

 

 

    Hello guest!

 

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17 minutes ago, Witness said:

JWs speak of Christ, but attribute salvation to an organization.

Yes, i also see this as problem. No religious organization, in this case a Christian, can provide complete and accurate knowledge and explanations of biblical events or of Jesus. When a believer realizes that his or her affiliation with a particular church does not provide “salvation,” it should help him or her build a “spiritual” rather than a “literal” faith.

In fact, WTJWorg also argues that baptism alone (baptism as a JW member) does not ensure the survival of Armageddon or the resurrection. Therefore, WTJWorg is a source of contradiction, not only in this topic; salvation is possible only in a JW organization, but also in many other doctrines.
Once more. All changes in the teachings and interpretations of the biblical text, as well as interpretations of dogmas in the teachings of the JW organization, then "clarifications" and "new light", can in no way be a guarantee to JW believers that their "salvation" is possible only in this "organization".

Reassure yourself that "my organization" has the highest number of correct teachings than any other organization, it can not be guarantee for "salvation". Did Jesus say anywhere that one's affiliation with a particular church would be crucial in separating "sheep from goats" in Judgement Day?.

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12 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Totally off topic but. Google are telling me this forum is 'Not Secure' and keep giving my red triangle warnings. 

I've been getting similar. Mine says the website didn't renew its license or something like that, so it's not secure...

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19 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

she’s sort of lazy

How did you know?

8 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Google are telling me this forum is 'Not Secure'

It did the same here - it told me it is not secure...…   trying to see if I obey?...….Not renewed the license?  lol

 

17 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

“Stay Loyal With Queen Zenobia a

I looked it up... The Daniel chapter speaks of the Exactor (Ceasar Augustus when Jesus was born) then the despised one... (Tiberius Caesar reigned when Jesus died.  (the old Daniel book spoke of the last strong Roman emperor and Zenobia - this is now out and it makes very good sense because the weeds had already taken over the Christian congregation - Math 19).  We then get to the time when the 'messenger' (Russel and his crowd) arrives before the 'wheat' is collected after 1914. 

The "Babylon the Great" book, if I remember correctly, discussed the 2nd German Reich starting with Bismarck and Wilhelm the second who collected so much weapons and built up Germany very strong after he pushed Bismarck out. I did not know that Wilhelm 2 was forced to abdicate by his admirals and inside governmental officials.  They announced his abdication without his permission..... those eating his delicacies. So it was actually already available information....The British empire information has been well covered in the past.

Third German Reich - Hitler.

Yes things are getting clearer as we pant towards the end.

 

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20 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The GB makes mistakes. “Stay Loyal With Queen Zenobia ... She came crashing to the ground yesterday with no one to mourn her—with no one to say “Too bad, too bad, you great hen!”

I will mourn her loss of prophetic fulfillment. Women in the role of "Kings of the South" will now be "scarce as hen's teeth." What's "sauce for the

    Hello guest!
should have been sauce for the goose," I always thought. But now "this bird has flown" south, I presume, for the winter of my discontent.

And speaking of hen's teeth, (

    Hello guest!
), I will miss the type of writing she inspired. How many articles can you think of that were written in a way to make ancient history so interesting, and
    Hello guest!
, and colorful? Like the Watchtower article below:

    Hello guest!

“The Dark-Haired Mistress of the Syrian Wild”

HER complexion was olive, her teeth pearly white, her eyes black and lustrous. She was well-educated and was a proficient linguist. This warrior queen was said to be greater in intellect than Cleopatra and perhaps equally beautiful. Because she dared to stand up to the dominant world power of her day, she fulfilled a prophetic role in a Scriptural drama. After she was long-dead, writers praised her, and painters idealized her. A 19th-century poet portrayed her as “the dark-haired mistress of the Syrian wild.” This highly acclaimed woman was Zenobia—queen of the Syrian city of Palmyra.

How did Zenobia gain prominence? What was the political climate that led to her rise to power? What can be said of her character? And what prophetic role did this queen fulfill? Consider first the geographic setting in which the drama unfolds.

. . . . With her colorful personality, Zenobia won the admiration of many.

[

    Hello guest!
* and ...
    Hello guest!
? I would have pleated that we not skirt this personality as the system pants on to the end, and finally unfolds to its clothes.]

*See

    Hello guest!
where the etymology has nothing to do with a lack of a
    Hello guest!
(female sweetheart).

Someone messaged me once a couple years ago to tell me that these puns don't translate into their native language. Thus, these links and footnotes to show that they also don't really translate well into English or into Humor, either.

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27 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

HER complexion was olive, her teeth pearly white, her eyes black and lustrous. She was well-educated and was a proficient linguist. This warrior queen was said to be greater in intellect than Cleopatra and perhaps equally beautiful.

Tell me about it. I had a real crush on her.

    Hello guest!

 

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Quote JW Insider  (My computer will not let me tag) 

I do not defend them as the equivalent of "the faithful and discreet slave." That, to me, and perhaps even according to the words of Brother Jackson of the GB, is a pretty presumptuous and haughty assumption, therefore not in keeping with being faithful and discreet. I am making an assumption that this is a serious error, 

Of course it is a serious error, but in my opinion it is deliberate. It deliberately exalts them above their FELLOW SLAVES. Which in turn makes them the EVIL SLAVE that beats his Fellow Slaves. AND, to me it shows that they are saying that  'The Master Is Delaying'.

All the hype about the last second of the last minute of the last hour of the last day of the last week of the time of the end, proves how much they are saying that 'the Master is delaying'. The leaders of the Org were saying this same thing in the late 1960's. 

So I have to disagree with you when you say " but it does not discredit all the work they do. ".  I think it totally discredits everything they do. And the way they are still hiding the CSA database, and still not cooperating with the Superior Authorities in America and Australia, also discredits anything else they do. 

Now I wonder, if the complete number of the Anointed remnant were all the F&DS, and if all of them had been given a voice concerning the CSA in America and Australia, what would have been the outcome ? Do you see my point here? The GB are frightened of losing complete control over the rest of the Anointed remnant. They actually said that the Anointed would be 'working against the Spirit' if they were to meet together for spiritual study and association. 

 

  • “We Want to Go With You”
  • The Watchtower Announcing Jehovah’s Kingdom (Simplified)—2016

8 Anointed Christians do not feel that they should spend time only with other anointed ones, as if they were members of a club. They do not try to find other anointed ones so that they can talk about being anointed or meet in groups to study the Bible. (

    Hello guest!
) The congregation would not be united if anointed ones did this. They would be working against the holy spirit, which helps God’s people to have peace and unity. 

This is the Governing Body that you approve of is it ? The GB you say that are not discredited ? 

Quote I have a feeling that you are too quick to jump on any place where someone finds a reason not to support a specific teaching of the GB, 

Um, yes, their ideas on masturbation not being porneia was one. And their idea of, if a man and a woman spend time in the same building together, they are automatically accused of having sex. and then there was Pillowgate :) .

Quote  You recently asked about a translation issue where I think that the great majority of the 700 verses that were translated with the "prove to be" construct in the NWT were unnecessary, and some potentially misleading 

I was always taught by JWs (when I started studying)  that the NWT was translated by the help of God's Holy Spirit. Therefore I believed it without question. I've since realised that the GB and the previous Leaders never had and do not have God's holy spirit as guidance. As an example the scripture where Thomas says "the Holes in the Hands where the Nails passed through "   and then the Org / GB produce a book with a picture of Jesus on the stake with ONE nail through His WRISTS.  I don't even have to dig deep to find fault. It is all there on the surface for all to see. 

I don't even like the phrase 'torture stake' and I think in truth the word is just 'stake' 

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1 hour ago, Arauna said:

How did you know?

Sorry. That was just for 4Jah’s sake. He’ll believe anything bad about a JW.

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

this is now out and it makes very good sense because the weeds had already taken over the Christian congregation

I likened it to the ingredients of a sandwich disappearing. When that happens, what’s the point of keeping track of the two slices of bread that enclose it?

When the ingredients reappear—well, we know that God’s people are to be between a rock and a hard place. Who corresponds to that? What two parties during the World Wars hate each other’s guts, and also give the covenant people grief for the same reason, that of neutrality?

I agree with you. I think things become very clear as we near the end.

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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

    Hello guest!

I clicked. I thought this line was especially funny:

"That evening I prepared a protest sign: “Zenobia Lives!” but then I realized there would be no convention to carry it to."

It hadn't occurred to me that apostates will no longer have a venue to carry their messages. I hope that none of them discover the Internet.

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14 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Yes, i also see this as problem. No religious organization, in this case a Christian, can provide complete and accurate knowledge and explanations of biblical events or of Jesus. When a believer realizes that his or her affiliation with a particular church does not provide “salvation,” it should help him or her build a “spiritual” rather than a “literal” faith.

14 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Reassure yourself that "my organization" has the highest number of correct teachings than any other organization, it can not be guarantee for "salvation". Did Jesus say anywhere that one's affiliation with a particular church would be crucial in separating "sheep from goats" in Judgement Day?.

Many religious organizations are high profile, like Mormonism, the Catholic Church and Islam. Blood, sweat, even tears over the centuries created some stunningly beautiful buildings.  JWs pride themselves on their own building feats, as if God has blessed their hand, when history shows greater works in the name of religion have been built. All it takes is slave labor and money.  

I know I’ve referred to John 4 so many times, and Jesus’ conversation with the woman at the well.  She pointed to the mountain in Samaria where her temple stood; Jesus mentioned the temple in Jerusalem.  These were literal places which he remarked would no longer be used for worship. No mountain would be necessary to worship God.    But man continued building “mountains" to worship God.  They named them, “God’s house”or " God's temple".  How many houses of God or temples stand in various religions today?  Which one does God really reside in?  Which one would He choose?  Such works are futile attempts for over 2,000 years. They all have left a legacy of lies, while promising salvation, and the WT organization is following in their footprints.

“Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, “These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down.”

So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”

And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near.’ Therefore do not go after them.”  Luke 21:5-8

 

“For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.”  Phil 3:18,19

 

 

 

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On 7/10/2020 at 1:23 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

JWs have put themselves among company in which peer-pressure is going to nudge them in the safer direction.

 About twenty percent of the time.  Eighty percent of the time, the results of JW  peer pressure are brutal. 

Would you call the statement below, nudging in the safer direction?  Or, is it a tyrannical threat?  

"But we are acting against Jehovah’s purpose if we do not obey the faithful and discreet slave or if we choose to obey only what we think is important. And if we act against Jehovah’s purpose, we cannot be his friends. In the next article, we will talk about some situations that give us the opportunity to show if we are obedient. The decisions we make in these situations will show if we have entered into God’s rest."  WT 11/7/15 p. 21

Are your peers keeping tab on whether you are 'showing' that you are obedient to the GB?   Are elders your peers, or are they the tyrants that must decide if God is still your friend?

 "It (false prophet) was permitted to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast (organization) could both speak and cause whoever would not worship the image of the beast to be killed." Rev 13:15

"give breath" - spirit breathed - "spirit directed"

 

 

 

    Hello guest!

 

 

 

 

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On 7/12/2020 at 2:33 AM, Anna said:

There have always been opposers, but now they are finding more of a voice than they ever had before...

Sometimes all you have to do with a statement like that from the Glock is to show a little flexibility. Like the boy that was spanked by his Dad and protested that he hadn’t committed the offense he was being punished for. “Well—in that case, that’s for something that you did do for which you should have been punished but weren’t,” dear old dad said.

So it is with Glock’s words. Covid doesn’t fit as well as we might like? Try the arrests in Russia—110 homes burst into, with persons—many elderly, many women, children among them, by cops in with assault weapons—in a single night.  Maybe his words will fit better there:

 

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3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Sometimes all you have to do with a statement like that from the Glock is to show a little flexibility.

 

4 hours ago, Witness said:

"But we are acting against Jehovah’s purpose if we do not obey the faithful and discreet slave or if we choose to obey only what we think is important. And if we act against Jehovah’s purpose, we cannot be his friends. In the next article, we will talk about some situations that give us the opportunity to show if we are obedient. The decisions we make in these situations will show if we have entered into God’s rest."  WT 11/7/15 p. 21

FLEXIBILITY vs OBEY

:)))

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5 hours ago, Witness said:

peer pressure are brutal

Anyone who has thought about society knows that peer pressure is everywhere. At work, any club, in groups of friends, gangs - everywhere you go there is some form of peer pressure …to be accepted, even to have the image of being free in a so-called group where everyone follows their own desires, even there, there is is peer pressure - that of appearance of conforming to the image. 

How did Hitler become so powerful?  Radio propaganda and peer pressure.  Why did people follow orders ?  Peer pressure made them kill others... against their natural instinct.  So peer pressure can be a good thing or bad.  So when people say peer pressure to conform to good standards is brutal.... then you know what you are dealing with. 

Several experiments were done in the 1950s due to the Hitler era.  They are on Youtube. One experiment was about the amount of pain a person would inflict on others if ordered by authority to do so. Another experiment I recall was also interesting:  A group of people were in on the experiment. One candidate was brought in to choose the shortest line among many.  Others in the (informed) group all chose the wrong ones and vocally said so... eventually the person went against his own (correct) conviction and chose the wrong answer because most of the others had chosen it...

Why I say the governments are so evil now is because of all the secret experiments they have done on crowd control, mind control and social engineering.  They are manipulating internet to get people to think how they want you to think.  (conspiracy)? 

There are many historical documentaries online that show how the government used the Nazis (dr. Mengele types - they secretly brought them to America - operation paperclip - and here these Nazis received positions, new names) Their compromised consciences allowed them to further their research on mind control...and many programs were started which were in secret. MKULTRA was one of these programs.  These psychological research/brutal experiments ( done in secret) is only now surfacing with the release of old documents. 

That is why we are now in a time when they will manipulate everyone to do their bidding and only those with very strong faith will survive.  I have read about the use of frequencies etc to stimulate certain parts of the brain etc. They will use this in future as well.  Jehovah will have to step in.  All I know is - this world is totally evil and many vulnerable people were experimented on in USA and Canada without their knowledge  (so-called countries with human rights).  Some of the things they did to these people are shocking!

Better to have a little peer pressure to do the right thing than peer pressure to worship the state.  China has got all the technology to do this now and most citizens dare not speak out, even if they do not agree with what is going on.  CCP  used to hide this from foreigners in their midst but it is totally out in the open now.  everyone has to bow to their will.

So for those here who have a problem with peer pressure - your own desires to be accepted bring on the peer pressure. If you are a natural rebel, then you will also have a problem because in broader society you will have issues - except with immediate family.  Now the state is starting to attack family structure as well.  if they break this - you will have no support system.

The hunger and food shortages coming (due to extended lock-down) will make people conform even further - to get food.... you may not be able to buy and sell?  Let us see first what kind of new economic fedcoin, yuancoin, blockchain coin, or whatever digital system will arise in place of petro-dollar. The bank of international settlements, world bank, IMF etc will come up with something......

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7 hours ago, Arauna said:

Peer pressure made them kill others... against their natural instinct.

I like how at the annual meeting, Mark Sanderson examined Hebrews 2:15, of how “through [Jesus’] death [God] might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil, and that he might set free all those who were held in slavery all their lives by their fear of death.”

He then spoke of the Nuremberg trials, in which various Nazis who had committed unspeakable atrocities were asked the simple question, “How could you do those terrible things?” “What did they say?” he asked, and then related the answer they had given: “We had no choice. If we didn’t obey they would put us to death.” 

“Those people could be manipulated,” Sanderson said. “They could be controlled. They could be made to do the most wicked things because they were afraid.”

That’s manipulation. That’s control. That’s the consequence—shall we say it?—of not being one of Jehovah’s Witnesses benefiting from the program of spiritual food directed from the Governing Body. And here is Witness (and numerous others) sniveling about “brutal peer pressure!” The woman is a joke, as are all those who rage against the “control” of the GB. Had there been similar “control” among the Axis population, there would have been no need for the Nuremberg trials.

    Hello guest!

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12 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:
On 7/12/2020 at 2:33 AM, Anna said:

There have always been opposers, but now they are finding more of a voice than they ever had before...

Sometimes all you have to do with a statement like that from the Glock

Wait a minute....are you saying that was a statement from Br. Glock? Because it wasn't, that was what I deducted from what I've been seeing.

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42 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil, and that he might set free all those who were held in slavery all their lives by their fear of death.”

He then spoke of the Nuremberg trials, in which various Nazis who had committed unspeakable atrocities were asked the simple question, “How could you do those terrible things?” “What did they say?” he asked, and then related the answer they had given: “We had no choice. If we didn’t obey they would put us to death.” 

In context this is true of course. But some opposers will say they were held in slavery by the JW religion because of the fear of death because if they didn't do what was right they were going to die. 

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8 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

OBEY

How can one be so obtuse as Srecko? He fusses on and on about the GB’s counsel, as seen through the appreciative eyes of Glock. “It’s just good sound human advice,” he says. “What’s God got to do with it?”

He misses the point most powerful so as to focus on the petty. Tell Jehovah’s people to obey the secular authorities, and they will. Tell ones of the greater world to obey, and they won’t—as a group, I mean—obviously there will be a Bell curve, but it is where that Bell curve falls that determines success of failure.

Here is a post from CNBC entitled, “

    Hello guest!

Within, Benioff says: “If everyone in the United States wore a mask for 3 weeks — just 3 weeks — we would not have anymore coronavirus because there would be no more spread, but people do not want to wear masks.”

One would think that Srecko would be cheerleading for Jehovah’s Witnesses. One would think he would be urging all to come under their umbrella—for there is to be found the end of Covid-19 within three weeks. “People do not want to wear masks,” Benioff says. Witnesses do not want to wear them, either, but they are ready to