Furuli's new book: Is any of it right? Useful? Like Franz?

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Does he say anything about Russia? Does he imply that things would have been right as rain if his college-educated buddies had been running the show? Does he imply that of the first century?

Not a word about Russia, except to mention Russia, USA, Norway, etc., in passing, as some of the governments that God's kingdom will crush, per Daniel 2:44. Nothing new here.

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, César Chávez said:

If we are to profess knowledge of Watchtower history, let it be with the strength of true knowledge.

If you'd like. Go ahead and believe it was some sort of Governing Body. 

I'm only referring to the fact that the Watchtower publications (and MacMillan's "Faith on the March," too) nearly BRAG about the fact that "Russell was the Society," and never had to take any advice or share his leadership with anyone else. As I said above, the need for the editorial committee, and Society officers, was only to be invoked if something were to happen to Russell.

In an April 1894 Watch Tower, Russell himself stated :

Notice that the board of directors was understood not to have any control or usefulness until Russell died. Hard to see how they could be "governing" in any way if they were not in any way useful while Russell was alive. The office of Russell was considered to be that of RULER of ALL the Lord's belongings, already, now that the Lord had already arrived in 1874. This was stated in the March 1 1923 Watchtower, too:

...

The world ruler is in the Watchtower's italics. Not mine.

As I said, however, you are free to believe what you want here, say whatever you'd like,  but I will take the Watchtower's word for it in this case.

23 hours ago, César Chávez said:

That was the reason to incorporate. Rutherford as his attorney was not even a Bible Student at that point, just his lawyer.

I won't pick on every little thing you got wrong, but this part was also problematic. The Watchtower incorporated in 1884, so Rutherford was not his attorney at that point. Rutherford was only 15 years old in 1884. Wikipedia should clear it up:

". . . .joining the Bible Student movement, and he was baptized in 1906. He was appointed the legal counsel for the Watch Tower Society in 1907"

Or if you still think that he was his lawyer first before becoming a Bible Student, you can try the Proclaimers book and the 1975 Yearbook:

*** yb75 p. 83 Part 1—United States of America ***
Not long thereafter, in 1906, J. F. Rutherford symbolized his dedication to Jehovah God. Wrote Brother Macmillan: “I had the privilege of baptizing him at Saint Paul, Minnesota. He was one of 144 persons that I personally baptized in water that day. So when he became president of the Society, I was especially pleased.”
In 1907 Rutherford became the Watch Tower Society’s legal counselor, serving at its Pittsburgh headquarters.

I hope, for once, that you won't try to drag this out, and divert and still try to say that all these facts are wrong and that only you can do actual correct research. As you said to me above:

4 hours ago, César Chávez said:

The only one that has gotten the Watchtower history wrong is you.

So, yes. I've heard this dozens of times from you. And everyone who reads carefully has always been able to see through this game of yours. Or you can accept what the Watchtower publications say about it.

 

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

The office of Russell was considered to be that of RULER of ALL the Lord's belongings

Note that the current WT idea makes the FDS only appointed but not yet ruler over all the Lord's belongings, but that Russell was considered to have already been RULER of ALL the Lord's belongings, from the time Russell saw himself --alone-- as the FDS (FWS).

Rutherford had a chance to consider the views of the so-called "governing  body" of the WTS board, but when a majority of that board disagreed with him, Rutherford found a way to dismiss them. (Using a legal loophole that also applied to himself, so that he would also have needed to dismiss himself if his real goal was to be legally fair and ethical.)

But Rutherford also road on the coattails of Russell's authority as a means to continue the idea that he was in Russell's place, and no one would dare go against Russell without also realizing they were going against the Lord's appointed instrument. Inconsistently, Rutherford was also able to argue that Russell's paper "last will and testament" was worthless because God's organization can't be tied to the "will" of a human. The Watchtower itself admits that any usefulness of the Editorial Committee under Rutherford was already as good as abolished by 1925

...

Notice that the usefulness of an editorial committee is considered to be the opposite of the Lord himself running the organization.

And just another example. Raymond Franz, in Crisis of Conscience, mentions the time when Rutherford wanted to change the doctrine of the "superior authorities" in Romans 13 to mean Jehovah and Jesus, instead of following the correct explanation that Russell had, and which we now have again.. (R.Franz recalls that it was either this issue or another one just as obviously unscriptural.) Fred Franz objected because he was aware that it was false, and he expressed his objection to Rutherford. So Rutherford had Fred Franz write the article with the false doctrine in it.

These stories merge exactly with stories that my Bethel table head told us about Rutherford, among other persons who related stories of his Rutherford's autocratic objection to making use of anything like a "governing body."

[Arauna]

 

On 6/6/2020 at 7:56 AM, JW Insider said:

There are so many things historically wrong with your assessment that I won't even start

Since we are Bible students and have a PERSONAL relationship with Jehovah and keep improving our  BIBLE  knowledge, I fail to see why we need to know the entire history and every detail of the watchtower history.

I look at the bible and see some kind of central body in the first century. Then I look at the changed circumstances of our day, such as a world-wide responsibility,  together with new technology such as internet and video etc. I immediately understand we need a legal corporation etc to manage a unified approach to the nation of God.  I.e they delegate the videos to certain branch offices but have final oversight over content to ensure ONE message. 

What I am interested in, is NOW!  The core truths that we are teaching now! And the willingness of people to contemplate the new changes. I do not need any person to tell me...... "BUT in a watchtower in 1967."...... bla bla bla.  Russel said : bla bla.

7 hours ago, César Chávez said:

it will be because, he has lost his way into spiritual knowledge. Raymond Franz did the same thing with one exception, Ray's spiritual

Intelligence or education is not needed to understand the deep things of God......... jehovahs spirit is needed.  I do not admire scholars at all because it puffs up. And secular scholars are often bought and paid for.

I have lived in Africa where I saw true humility and poverty..... so I know what the real thing looks like .  Some people  have an "acquired humility".

I actually  feel sorry for the professor Feruli- to have served jehovah so long and faithfully and now in old age succumb to the plague of mankind........ the same quality which Satan displayed. We can all fall and become a victim.  I doubt he took any advice from a brother before publishing it. He wanted the world to notice him...... unfortunately. 

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Since we are Bible students and have a PERSONAL relationship with Jehovah and keep improving our  BIBLE  knowledge, I fail to see why we need to know the entire history and every detail of the watchtower history.

It’s weird that you think that way. How many times in WTJWorg magazines is it discussed and explained why JWs don’t do this or that. Why some customs are rejected and some are not considered wrong. Eg. why not celebrate a birthday, new year, May 1st etc. Then historical examples from the Bible or "worldly" history are given of what happened during the two birthday celebrations and other events. The magazine then concludes that birthdays have a “pagan origin,” and that this is the main reason why JW’s don’t celebrate birthdays today. What has happened in distant history is becoming a moral principle, a doctrine for the 21st century.

So, to today's JW's it is very important what the history of this or that is. Why is the history of a "mountain-like organization" not important to You, to them?

 

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Intelligence or education is not needed to understand the deep things of God

Intelligence is not needed ? Perhaps education is less important,because someone else can read to uneducated people, BUT you need  at least average IQ for understanding world around you and various/specific religious doctrines. :))

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

@Arauna " Since we are Bible students and have a PERSONAL relationship with Jehovah and keep improving our  BIBLE  knowledge, "

Yes and we can do this without being a JW. You said it is a personal relationship, and it is not an 'organisational' one. 

Quote Arauna.  "I look at the bible and see some kind of central body in the first century. "

Whereas I look at the Bible and see that Jesus personally guided the Apostle Paul to write the letters to the Congregations. Paul didn't even bother to visit the 'central body' for the first three years of his ministry. Paul definitely had a very personal relationship with God through Christ. It did not involve going through anyone else. 

Quote Arauna "I do not need any person to tell me"

Ah but you do have people telling you. You have your GB through the Writing Dept, and through your Elders. They tell you what they want you to believe. 

Quote Arauna "I actually  feel sorry for the professor Feruli- to have served jehovah so long and faithfully and now in old age succumb to the plague of mankind....

I actually feel sorry for anyone that cannot see the faults in the GB and the CCJW.  It's not about deliberately looking for faults, but it is about knowing what you are part of, and then using your Christian conscience to guide you as to whether it is right to remain part of it. 

[JW Insider]

6 hours ago, Arauna said:

Since we are Bible students and have a PERSONAL relationship with Jehovah and keep improving our  BIBLE  knowledge, I fail to see why we need to know the entire history and every detail of the watchtower history.

I absolutely agree. I don't think any of us should need to know that many details about Watchtower history, either. Most history is actually very mundane. But I know that it was a really big deal in Bethel research. Doctrines and other historical facts about the Society often changed incrementally and more details were needed than just what was reflected in the "Publications Index" (Beliefs Clarified). And, as you are surely aware, most of our book-format study publications keep referring back to our own Watchtower history.

Some people obviously take more an interest in such history than others, and I'm pretty sure you are implying that I take too much interest in the details. But the only time I bring it up is when it might effect our CURRENT beliefs about that history.

There are also times when people CURRENTLY tend to believe a different version of Watchtower history than the original Watchtower articles tell us. Naturally there is often a reason for these disparities, and the reason is of interest to me.  Even when the Watchtower itself CURRENTLY "rewrites" its history, and there must be a reason for it, and I would think that reason should be of interest to all of us. Is it accidental? Is it to impress? Is it wishful thinking? Is it just something we believe because we trust that someone else before us already did their homework when they didn't? Was someone before us honest, or was it an accidental mistake?

For example, a person here just claimed that Rutherford became Russell's lawyer first before he became a Bible Student. I don't think this detail should be the least bit important to anyone, whether it was true or not. But I immediately recognized it as wrong. So I am interested in why he would say that. What was the motive? Was it to impress that he has knowledge no one else has? Was it an honest mistake? Does he have information that the Watchtower publications didn't know about? Did he hear or read it from someone and never bothered to check the veracity before repeating it. Was it just a misunderstanding?

Those of us who take a strong interest in history, also take an interest in how accurately it gets reported and repeated. I like to see what kinds of things get in the way of accuracy. This includes the way people are treated if they bring up a correction, especially how people are excused for repeating false history that tends to support an ideology, and how people are judged for bringing up a correction that tends to go against the "desired" beliefs.

9 hours ago, Arauna said:

I look at the bible and see some kind of central body in the first century. Then I look at the changed circumstances of our day, such as a world-wide responsibility,  together with new technology such as internet and video etc. I immediately understand we need a legal corporation etc to manage a unified approach to the nation of God.

I do too. That's pretty much exactly what I've been saying about the usefulness of a central body of elders.

9 hours ago, Arauna said:

What I am interested in, is NOW!  The core truths that we are teaching now! And the willingness of people to contemplate the new changes. I do not need any person to tell me...... "BUT in a watchtower in 1967."...... bla bla bla.  Russel said : bla bla.

This just means you don't have the same level of interest. I'm sure that's perfectly fine with everyone here. But you might have missed the fact that I never bring up the past unless it has a direct bearing on what is being taught NOW! And it is NOW that we are teaching a NEW doctrine about this that just changed recently. We are teaching that a governing body such as we have NOW was appointed in 1919. Why do we think it is important to keep repeating this? Especially if it is a falsehood? What does this particular falsehood do for us now? Was this falsehood an honest mistake? Was it an unverified repetition of something someone else said? I'm sure you get the picture. It's all about honesty, and doing our due diligence in paying attention to our teaching.

[Witness]

Anyone, any teacher who teaches/preaches lies, falsehoods – whatever you want to call them – is spiritually immoral.  Any teacher who supports a heritage of false teachers, by quietly removing their lying books yet keeps continuing to highlight the person’s apparent spiritual “integrity”, is an accomplice to sin, to lies.  Nowhere in God’s word, do we find Jesus or the apostles supporting false teachers and the lies they spoke. (Ezek 13:9; Matt 7:15,16; 1 John 4:1; 2 Pet 3:17; 2 Pet 2:1-22)

Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you, for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets.  Luke 6:26

A spiritually “sexual” immoral person is defined by scripture, as a prostitute, a harlot.  Any person who turns a blind eye to a heritage running deep in spiritual immorality, and supports the organization that is guilty of it, is also is a partaker in harlotry. Man’s “ways are not God’s ways”. He expects His people to listen to His word, which condemns false prophets. (Deut 18:20-22) The warnings in scripture are prevalent against turning to falsehoods. There is no leeway, no footnote in the Bible called, “exceptions to the rule”, with the opportunity to label lies as “adjustments”, or “new light”.   The outcome for those who continue on that crooked path, is bleak.  (Prov 10:9; 11:3)

Not that my opinion matters in the least here, but what I see by the writing of this book is the beginning of another prophesy becoming fulfilled.  Revelation is not about the religions outside of spiritual “Israel”. It addresses God’s servants and their need for repentance. (Rev 3:15-20) The Harlot of Rev 13:11, who “guides”/rides the Beast organization (Rev 13:1) is primed for the Beast/elder body to “eat her flesh and burn her with fire”, which is the premise of Furuli's book.   Pretty much meaning "she"/GB is being “chewed up” and soon to be “spit out” by a coalition of non-anointed elders and a symbolic “ten kings” – anointed who join in the scheme to oust the GB.

God will put it into their hearts to carry it out.

“The ten horns you saw (Rev 13:1) are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, (with Christ, Rev 5:19,10) but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. ¹³ They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast. ¹⁴ They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

¹⁵ Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. ¹⁶ The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. ¹⁷ For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish His purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority,(1 Pet 2:9) until God’s words are fulfilled. ¹⁸ The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth. (Rev 1:5)”  Rev 17:12-18

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Arauna]

9 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Bible or "worldly" history are given of what happened during the two birthday celebrations and other events. The magazine t

I studied worldly history myself to see where pagan traditions come from.  However, I need not go and read how Russel felt about it or even what Rutherford said about it.  It is a historical fact - it was then and it is now. And our current books explain it quite well.

You are trying to compare slippers with pumpkins.

 

[Srecko Sostar]

Also, think, it is important to know the history of the organization to which someone belongs as an active member, as a person who dedicates his life to the goals of that same organization.

The WT has had several Charters from the beginning (which have changed several times to this day) and in those charters it is written why WT exist and what it wants to achieve.

These charters, from the first one during C.T. Russell in 1884 to the most recent, it seems to me 2003 (brand new, revised, with amendments, restated) are not quite so available if at all, and many JW's are not familiar with them, nor do they know they exist.

The emphasis should be on how history is related to the present and vice versa. Is there any doubt that the past of the organization is being revised? In what, how much and why?
If it is true that God will "pay everyone according to their deeds," then that would mean that our past and present are taken into account, right?

[Srecko Sostar]

3 minutes ago, Arauna said:

You are trying to compare slippers with pumpkins.

What connecting this two is: God has nothing against them :))