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John 17:3 ‘know thee the only true God’


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John 17:3 ‘know thee the only true God’

The Watchtower says that, because the Father is called ‘the only true God’, then Jesus cannot be the true God.

Ask: The context is Jesus as a man, praying the great high priestly prayer to the Father, and as such it was proper for the man Christ Jesus to call the Father ‘the only true God’.

Christ would not have said this if it was spoken from the viewpoint of His deity.

Ask: Since Jesus being called our only Lord (Jude 4 NWT) does not exclude the Father (Matthew 11:25) and the Holy Spirit from being called Lord, why must the Father being called ‘the only true God’ exclude the Son and Holy Spirit from being called God?

Ask: According to John 17:3, how many true Gods are there? (One).

Do you agree that whatever is not true is false?

If there is only one true God, all other gods must be false gods.

In John 1:1 NWT says that Jesus is a god, right? Is Jesus a true God or a false god?

He cannot be a false god, can He, since that would mean John was guilty of falsely honouring Jesus as a god. Therefore Jesus must be a true God.

But Jehovah is the only true God. Therefore Jesus must be Jehovah.


Reprinted with permission from Pastor Keith Piper.  

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Dean. www.calvarystudy.info

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Probably a subject not worth answering on. Those with spiritual wisdom know the Almighty God is greater than Jesus Christ.  Jesus said so many times that : "the Father is greater than I am"  and such as : "I do nothing of my own initiative but only that of the Father"  And Jesus said he was sent forth by God.  As  for the Holy Spirit, we know it is God's 'active force', not a spirit being.  If Jesus was God then who resurrected him when he was killed ? And who was it th

John 17:3 ‘know thee the only true God’ The Watchtower says that, because the Father is called ‘the only true God’, then Jesus cannot be the true God. Ask: The context is Jesus as a man, praying the great high priestly prayer to the Father, and as such it was proper for the man Christ Jesus to call the Father ‘the only true God’. Christ would not have said this if it was spoken from the viewpoint of His deity. Ask: Since Jesus being called our only Lord (Jude 4 NWT) does not

Kairos Movement, same old magic tricks. We had this rodeo show before, Jesus Deserter. Anything you say cannot harbor the Trinity as legitimate truth. You, s a Mainstream Christian never learn, and unlike the multitude here, granted their view of Non-Trinitarianism, and or with JWs, even if they make mistake, even on my account if I make a mistake, I, and even they themselves can see your folly. Refuted within a second.   Interesting this guy is the mirror image of David Wood, wh

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Kairos Movement, same old magic tricks. We had this rodeo show before, Jesus Deserter. Anything you say cannot harbor the Trinity as legitimate truth. You, s a Mainstream Christian never learn, and unlike the multitude here, granted their view of Non-Trinitarianism, and or with JWs, even if they make mistake, even on my account if I make a mistake, I, and even they themselves can see your folly.

Refuted within a second.

 

Interesting this guy is the mirror image of David Wood, who, he himself, cannot hold himself in a debate, especially with Muslims.

 

EDIT:

This pastor also believes NON-BIBLE CANONS TO BE INSPIRED WRITTEN AND TRUE. This alone further shows us that this pastor is mainstream, just like you. No true Christian would believe in a false narrative of the Christ, or words added by someone else and not from the Apostles and other writers.

Shame on you.

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Probably a subject not worth answering on.

Those with spiritual wisdom know the Almighty God is greater than Jesus Christ. 

Jesus said so many times that : "the Father is greater than I am"  and such as : "I do nothing of my own initiative but only that of the Father"  And Jesus said he was sent forth by God. 

As  for the Holy Spirit, we know it is God's 'active force', not a spirit being. 

If Jesus was God then who resurrected him when he was killed ?

And who was it that spoke from heaven saying "This is my Son whom I approve " 

(Sorry quotes are not perfect but close enough to give meaning). 

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@4Jah2me Correct. The verses in question regarding Jesus doing God's Will, start with John 14:10, from there you can find the marginal references by the context itself, from there, it would show you the verses in question to prove this to, essentially, a Low Level Trinitarian.

John 14:28, when Jesus said the Father is greater than him, you can do the same method with the cited above, however, Trinitarians will use this verse against you to state otherwise, and can easily spin doctor this verse to make Jesus appear as though he is God or equal to The Father (you may occasionally see the fully man fully God mantra at times), in addition, granted the other thread regarding Strong's, they can use the word "Good" to justify themselves, which will result in the notion of God and Jesus being different incarnations of the same God. The counter jab in this situation is the marginal references for this verse, and the context itself. 

As for God speaking to Jesus, same thing with the above two examples, otherwise, you will be hit with Trinity assertions of this moment in Scripture, since, we now have the Holy Spirit involved.

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19 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Probably a subject not worth answering on.

Those with spiritual wisdom know the Almighty God is greater than Jesus Christ. 

 

Wrong. Only those indoctrinated by men or organisations.

If you had READ the article, which i know as a JW you are not allowed to, Jesus IS referred to as Almighty God.

19 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Jesus said so many times that : "the Father is greater than I am"  and such as : "I do nothing of my own initiative but only that of the Father"  And Jesus said he was sent forth by God. 

 

When did He say this? Oh, WHEN HE WAS ON EARTH where He humbled Himself.

In John 14:28 Jesus is not speaking about His nature or being (Christ had earlier said in John 10:30, ‘I and the Father are one’), but about His lowly position of incarnation as a man. The Athanasian Creed says that Christ is ‘equal to the Father as touching His Godhood, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood’. Christ was here contrasting His human humiliation, shame, suffering, rejection, opposition by enemies, and soon crucifixion, with the Father’s majesty, glory and worship by the angels in heaven.

Jesus said, ‘The Father is greater (Greek: meizon) than I’, not ‘The Father is better (Greek: kreitton) than I’. ‘Greater’ refers to the Father’s greater position (in heaven), not to a greater nature. If the word ‘better’ had been used, this would indicate that the Father had a better nature than Jesus.
 

i) The distinction is made clear in Hebrews 1:4 where ‘better’ (Gk: kreitton) is used to teach Jesus’ superiority over the angels in His nature and position.
ii) This difference between ‘greater’ and ‘better’ is seen in this example:
‘The President of a country is greater (Greek: meizon) in position than his people, but as a human being he is not better (Greek: kreitton) in nature than his people’.
iii) Jesus in becoming a man, not only took on a lower position than the Father, but also took on a lower position than the angels. ‘But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death’. (Hebrews 2:9)
 

And yes, WHILST ON EARTH, Jesus had a God in heaven. Would you expect Jesus to be an atheist?

19 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

 

As  for the Holy Spirit, we know it is God's 'active force', not a spirit being. 

Wrong. 

The Holy Spirit is fully God and has personality as He can be blasphemed.

The Holy Spirit has the three attributes of personality, those being: mind, emotions and will.

An ‘active force’ does not have personal attributes. Your claim of the Holy Spirit being an active force is disproven if the Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit has mind,emotions & will.

The Holy Spirit intercedes or prays for believers.‘The Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings’. (Romans 8:26). 

The Holy Spirit hears. ‘Whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak.’ (John 16:13)

The Holy Spirit can be blasphemed.‘he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost’.Mk3:29

People cannot be blasphemed. We can only be slandered. Only God can be blasphemed.

The Holy Spirit uses personal pronouns to describe Himself: John 15:26; 16:13;(he):

‘The Holy Spirit said, Separate me Barnabus. . .’ (Acts 13:2).

The Holy Spirit considers Himself a person, not a personification.

I know the standard watchtower reasoning is that they say that the Holy Spirit is an ‘active force’ ibecause the Greek word for ‘spirit’ (pneuma) is neuter.

But, to any serious student of the Bible, this is faulty reasoning, because 1)the gender of a word relates to the grammatical form of the word, not to its sex or physical gender. Because a word is grammatically neuter does not mean that the object is an ‘it’ or of neuter sex. (Source: Elements of NT Greek, J W Wenham, 1979, p.8).

19 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

If Jesus was God then who resurrected him when he was killed ?

A brilliant question, my friend.

Let's see what the Bible says.

God the father. Acts 10:40 "τοῦτον ὁ θεὸς ἤγειρεν τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρᾳ καὶ ἔδωκεν αὐτὸν ἐμφανῆ γενέσθαι" ) "Him God raised up the third day and shewed him openly"


Jesus. John 2:19,21 "ἀπεκρίθη ὁ Ἰησοῦς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Λύσατε τὸν ναὸν τοῦτον καὶ ἐν τρισὶν ἡμέραις ἐγερῶ αὐτόν", "Jesus answered and said unto them Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up" 21 "ἐκεῖνος δὲ ἔλεγεν περὶ τοῦ ναοῦ τοῦ σώματος αὐτοῦ", "But he spake of the temple of his body"


The Holy Spirit. Romans 8:11 "εἰ δὲ τὸ πνεῦμα τοῦ ἐγείραντος Ἰησοῦν ἐκ νεκρῶν οἰκεῖ ἐν ὑμῖν ὁ ἐγείρας τὸν Χριστὸν ἐκ νεκρῶν ζῳοποιήσει καὶ τὰ θνητὰ σώματα ὑμῶν διὰ τὸ ἐνοικοῦν αὐτοῦ Πνεῦμα ἐν ὑμῖν", "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you"


 

19 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

 

And who was it that spoke from heaven saying "This is my Son whom I approve " 

(Sorry quotes are not perfect but close enough to give meaning). 

No need to be sorry, i am enjoying this polite and friendly discussion. Thank you.

Yes, the quotes you use are all of when Jesus WAS ON EARTH.

It was Jehovah the father speaking to Jehovah the son.

Remember that Jesus condescended Himself to take on the likeness (form, appearance) of man and the form of a servant. (Phil 2:7). His becoming a man involved gaining human attributes (subject to weakness, pain, sorrow and temptation), but not giving up his divine attributes.
 

If you wish to talk about other standard passages the watchtower uses like John 20:28, John 20:17, John 17:3, I Corinthians 8:6, Psalm 110:1, etc. i would be more than happy to have a friendly, polite non-confrontational discussion.

I think most of your above points, i have done short videos on.

 

Blessings, my friend.

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John 14:28 "You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.'"

John 2:19,21 "Jesus answered and said unto them Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up" 21 "But he spake of the temple of his body"

Romans 8:11 "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you"  

Romans 8:9-11 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[

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] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[
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 his Spirit who lives in you.

I am not here to support dualism or trialism or whatever is religious theology about trinity and so. I am going to look at text itself and to possibilities they offer. 

1) when Jesus said  Father is greater than I, we can take in context place and moment. Jesus, as His son, but also as son of his human mother, speaking from position of body and blood, a human on Earth. As perfect human individual in the body, he was also more than mere perfect human. He was only begotten Son, Firstborn of all. As perfect human, similar to Adam, because he represented Adam, he was correctly made statement how his Father is greater. Not only in aspects of his human condition at that moment, but also in regard spiritual position, Father - Son position.

2) in speaking about Temple i would not use this verse to prove who resurrected who, or who are in position to do such act. In verse is clearly said who have power and ability to raise Temple in the 3 days. Jesus made undoubted claim how HE is individual who will going to do this if somebody destroy Temple (literal or spiritual Temple, it is not matter) If Jesus is not only copy or clone of perfect Adam but much, much more, i not see obstacle to take in possibility how most powerful person in Universe, after Father, is able to made resurrection of human body. Because Jesus was in fact spirit in human body. His life was originated from spiritual place.    

3) Spirit of God and Spirit of Jesus is interesting terminology. And both are powerful for same task - resurrection. 

 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?  - John 11

This two Spirits are so close and connected that it is understandable why Jesus said:

I and the Father are one, the same. .... Father is in me, and I in the Father. - John 10 ... I am the Life - John 14

 

Just some verses for further research. I am not stating anything.

 

 

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11 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

John 14:28 "You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.'"

John 2:19,21 "Jesus answered and said unto them Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up" 21 "But he spake of the temple of his body"

Romans 8:11 "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you"  

Romans 8:9-11 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life NIV-28127d" data-link='[<a data-cke-saved-href="NIV-28127d" href="NIV-28127d" title="See footnote d">d</a>]' style="font-size:0.625em; vertical-align:top">[

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] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because ofNIV-28128e" data-link='[<a data-cke-saved-href="NIV-28128e" href="NIV-28128e" title="See footnote e">e</a>]' style="font-size:0.625em; vertical-align:top">[
    Hello guest!
] his Spirit who lives in you.

 

I don't know what your point is here. First, get rid of the NIV and ignore footnotes as they are just somebodys' opinion.

Yes, the Holy Spirit raised Jesus. So did God the father and Jesus.

"But he spake of the temple of his body"

The greek word here means a LITERAL, PHYSICAL Body.

The bottom line is the Bible CLEARLY showing that the triune God raised Jesus.

 

Quote

I am not here to support dualism or trialism or whatever is religious theology about trinity and so. I am going to look at text itself and to possibilities they offer. 

 

Oh, i think all of us are biased to some degree.

But yes. What does the text say is the question.

 

Quote

 

 

1) when Jesus said  Father is greater than I, we can take in context place and moment. Jesus, as His son, but also as son of his human mother, speaking from position of body and blood, a human on Earth. As perfect human individual in the body, he was also more than mere perfect human. He was only begotten Son, Firstborn of all. As perfect human, similar to Adam, because he represented Adam, he was correctly made statement how his Father is greater. Not only in aspects of his human condition at that moment, but also in regard spiritual position, Father - Son position.

 

Again, In John 14:28 Jesus is not speaking about His nature or being (Christ had earlier said in John 10:30, ‘I and the Father are one’), but about His lowly position of incarnation as a man. The Athanasian Creed says that Christ is ‘equal to the Father as touching His Godhood, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood’. Christ was here contrasting His human humiliation, shame, suffering, rejection, opposition by enemies, and soon crucifixion, with the Father’s majesty, glory and worship by the angels in heaven.

Jesus said, ‘The Father is greater (Greek: meizon) than I’, not ‘The Father is better (Greek: kreitton) than I’. ‘Greater’ refers to the Father’s greater position (in heaven), not to a greater nature. If the word ‘better’ had been used, this would indicate that the Father had a better nature than Jesus.
 

‘In view of greater (meaning higher in position) and better (meaning higher in nature), is it not clear that in John 14:28 Jesus is speaking of the Father’s temporary higher position and not his higher nature than Jesus?

QUESTION: How did Christ make Himself of no reputation when He became a man? (Phil. 2:6-9)

1. He veiled His preincarnate glory in order to dwell among men, but never surrendered His deity or divine glory. On the Mount Transfiguration He allowed His glory to shine briefly. If Christ had not veiled His glory, mankind would not have been able to look at
Him. When John saw His glory on Patmos he said, ‘I fell at His feet as dead’. (Rev. 1:17).
2. He submitted to a voluntary non use of some of His divine attributes (on some occasions) in order to achieve His objectives. He never surrendered His attributes, but He did voluntarily cease using some of them on earth. Jesus showed His divine attributes of:
i) omniscience (‘He knew all men’ John 2:24; 16:30;‘Lord thou knowest all things.’ 21:17
ii) omnipresence (John 3:13 ‘the Son of man which is in heaven’).
As God He was everywhere at once, but as man He chose to walk there.
iii) omnipotence (Matthew 28:18 ‘all power is given unto me’.)

3. He condescended to take on the likeness (form, appearance) of man and the form of a servant. (Phil 2:7). His becoming a man involved gaining human attributes (subject to weakness, pain, sorrow and temptation), but not giving up his divine attributes.

Conclusion: ‘The Father is greater than I’ (John 14:28) said Jesus from the vantage point of His incarnation as a man. This verse relates to Christ’s voluntary subordination to the Father to accomplish His work on earth.‘Greater than’ refers to His greater position not His nature.
 

Quote

 

2) in speaking about Temple i would not use this verse to prove who resurrected who, or who are in position to do such act. In verse is clearly said who have power and ability to raise Temple in the 3 days. Jesus made undoubted claim how HE is individual who will going to do this if somebody destroy Temple (literal or spiritual Temple, it is not matter)

 

Yes, it DOES matter. the word can ONLY mean a literal, physical BODY

This verse certainly DOES say that Jesus said He would raise HIMSELF UP after 3 days of being dead.

So, was Jesus lying?

 

Quote

 

If Jesus is not only copy or clone of perfect Adam but much, much more, i not see obstacle to take in possibility how most powerful person in Universe, after Father, is able to made resurrection of human body. Because Jesus was in fact spirit in human body. His life was originated from spiritual place.    

 

Yes, God the father DID raise Jesus. But here Jesus says that HE HIMSELF will do it. Was Jesus lying?

‘I will raise it up . . . he spake of the temple of his body.’ - John 2:19-21
‘Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up (v.19). But he spake of the temple of his body.’ (v.21)


Jesus here promised that He Himself would raise up His own body after three days. Notice how Jesus uses the word ‘body’ meaning a bodily resurrection, not a spiritual resurrection.

Quote

 

 

 

3) Spirit of God and Spirit of Jesus is interesting terminology. And both are powerful for same task - resurrection. 

 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?  - John 11

This two Spirits are so close and connected that it is understandable why Jesus said:

I and the Father are one, the same. .... Father is in me, and I in the Father. - John 10 ... I am the Life - John 14

 

Just some verses for further research. I am not stating anything.

 

 

 

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19 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

I knew you were not worth talking to :) 

Oh and by the way I am NOT a JW.  So from the beginning you were wrong. 

Now you see why I am strict and critical when it comes to misconceptions and Bible Strong's - being caught off guard it can easily be used against you when someone of the latter viewpoint is attempting to prove Jesus is God (Yahweh/Jehovah).

Jesus.Deserter is an example of a mainstream Christian affiliated with the belief the The Trinity and as pointed out in the thread you started, you can see how vastly the view differs. Lucky for you he is a low level Trinitarian, for he targets JWs, not just to lure them out, but anyone who does not believe Jesus to be God.

To the common Trinitarian, if you believe Jesus is not God, you are against the truth of the Scriptures, and you are deem someone who is in denial of Jesus' Deity and or that of him being God - therefore, destined for eternal hellfire torment, as they believe also.

Trinitarians view us, as well as Jehovah's Witnesses, as false and or incorrect and deem us as prophets of falsehood, moreover, their influenced is spread to those who, the majority to produce falsehood, misinformation and twisting information. It is nothing to do with teachings of anything else, but rather, God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit alone (The very core of Christianity itself, as is with anything that predates Christianity), hence this "war" I have been talking about is the whole Non-Trinitarian vs. Trinitarian situation we've been at since like the 4th century, and even in present day it is far more critical and serious due to the fact that mainstream Christianity is on a decline due to Christian minorities and Islam.

That being said, regardless if you are among Jehovah's Witnesses or not, granted JWs themselves are Non-Trinitarian as is among Restorationism (something Masons and Trinitarians often go after), you will still be branded as such, they even often brand Muslims as JWs outside of conversation or debate of the Crucifixion, since you are in the UK, this is often the tactic used in Speaker's Corner there.

Anyone who is not up there in Bible knowledge, they also mock by saying "running away", unlike the notion of proving claims granted they deem the latter as cowardly.

That being said, he used a Greek word and Strong's in his response to you, for there is good reason he skipped over me. In this case, you legitimately have a chance to prove the Trinitarian wrong here.

@Srecko Sostar That will not do because as I told 4Jah2me, Trinitarian can easily use those verses against you. This is why you need to utilize marginal references, as I said elsewhere, even Strong's can help you here, mainly in regards to John 1:1.

To the both of you, to combat The Trinity Doctrine as Non-Trinitarians, you really need to build up that muscle, that muscle being Scripture.

Like I said, in this situation you are dealing with Trinitarianism now. Therefore Bible verses/passages you have to know what connects to it, the references, this also goes for Hebrew and Greek Strong's as well and context because John 14:28 can easily be spun around to their favor if you do not go about things with discernment and or unprepared. That being said, the narrative here, on his part is the ideology, the view of this verse being seen as Jesus having 2 natures that correlates with the view of Godhood.

Granted he is err, his view is an obvious one (The Creed he quoted).

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20 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Wrong. Only those indoctrinated by men or organisations.

If you had READ the article, which i know as a JW you are not allowed to, Jesus IS referred to as Almighty God.

You show yourself to be credible, but you are not, for these same assertions people have proven you to be in err here.

To 4Jah2me's credit, you are the one who is incorrect here. He knows, as with the JWs, or any Non-Trinitarian, that Jesus is the Son of the True God, nowhere in Scripture is Jesus spoken of as "Almighty God" let alone did he even take plunder to being God, as pointed out in Philippians 2:6, which points out that did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, (the MS states did not take plunder and or equality to being equal to him [God], that is even critical proven by the evidence even in the Strong's Concordances to, to which Trinitarians are known to misuse and or ignore).

That being said, you cannot disprove the Non-Trinitarian view, which is indeed, the true one, not the 4th century Creed induced assertion you profess.

20 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

When did He say this? Oh, WHEN HE WAS ON EARTH where He humbled Himself.

In John 14:28 Jesus is not speaking about His nature or being (Christ had earlier said in John 10:30, ‘I and the Father are one’), but about His lowly position of incarnation as a man. The Athanasian Creed says that Christ is ‘equal to the Father as touching His Godhood, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood’. Christ was here contrasting His human humiliation, shame, suffering, rejection, opposition by enemies, and soon crucifixion, with the Father’s majesty, glory and worship by the angels in heaven.

The Quicumque Vult (The Athanasian Creed) was never practiced by the early Christians, it came long time after that. Citing this is your next mistake for the verse in question. The idea deeming Jesus to be literally equal to God is in your Creeds, but no in Scripture.

The writer was describing The Son of Man here, Jesus, who was indeed on the earth for he was a man born in the Law, was he not (Galatians 4:4)?

One of your citations hints of that somehow The Angels forgot who God is, again, another Trinity based contradiction and a cup of confusion.

In John 14:28, as is with numerous occasions, Jesus acknowledged his Father’s  absolute greatness, as is with the Father’s authority, and position of sovereignty, which all can be found in the following cited verses

  • Matthew 4:9, 10; 20:23
  • Lu 22:41, 42
  • John 5:19; 8:42; 13:16

After the ascension of the Christ, into heaven, Jesus’ followers, his Apostles, described the God our Father as having a distinct superior position compared to his only-begotten son, Jesus, which can also be found here:

  • 1 Corinthians 11:3; 15:20, 24-28
  • 1 Peter 1:3
  • 1 John 2:1; 4:9, 10

In the Greek Language, you have the word meizon, which Greek Strong’s # 3185. The word in question is rendered greater depending on the translation, and it is in a comparative form of the word for great, which in Greek is megas, Greek Strong’s # 3173. In many contexts where one person or thing is said to be greater and or superior to another

  • Matthew 18:1; 23:17
  • Mark 9:34; 12:31
  • Luke 22:24
  • John 13:16
  • 1 Corinthians 13:13

Also one can see the Strong's you mentioned is not even in the verse, otherwise that would have been a Greek violation. You cannot compare words like that, especially when there is no root connections with no genitive connections even, therefore, despite the wording, to do this on your own is silly. By the way, that is that word is Greek Strong's #2909, not used in the verse in question, and or has any connection. Stop with the thinking of man when it comes to this.

Therefore, in context, even by means of even the marginal references, which can be found cited in nearly every translation, Jesus here is telling us that the Father, who is his God, who is is Father, according to him in John 20:17, 30, is greater than him.

In the Didache itself, is mirrors the same thing, therefore, you are in error, Deserter.

20 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Jesus said, ‘The Father is greater (Greek: meizon) than I’, not ‘The Father is better (Greek: kreitton) than I’. ‘Greater’ refers to the Father’s greater position (in heaven), not to a greater nature. If the word ‘better’ had been used, this would indicate that the Father had a better nature than Jesus.
 

i) The distinction is made clear in Hebrews 1:4 where ‘better’ (Gk: kreitton) is used to teach Jesus’ superiority over the angels in His nature and position.
ii) This difference between ‘greater’ and ‘better’ is seen in this example:
‘The President of a country is greater (Greek: meizon) in position than his people, but as a human being he is not better (Greek: kreitton) in nature than his people’.
iii) Jesus in becoming a man, not only took on a lower position than the Father, but also took on a lower position than the angels. ‘But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death’. (Hebrews 2:9)

As addressed of what the context and the Strong's convey, we can see here you are adding your own exegesis, spinning the context and the Strong's to befit your Trinitarian concept. As I recall you had 3 persons being God, not two, therefore, granted you cannot assert the 3rd person of the Trinity here, this failure is coupled with the latter statement.

That being said, when it comes to Strong's, pay attention to the wording, context and the grammatical usage. The number is correct, however, one must pay attention to it's usage and where and how it is used. The other one you added to make yourself seem right to confuse the others.

19 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Jesus said, ‘The Father is greater (Greek: meizon) than I’, not ‘The Father is better (Greek: kreitton) than I’. ‘Greater’ refers to the Father’s greater position (in heaven), not to a greater nature. If the word ‘better’ had been used, this would indicate that the Father had a better nature than Jesus.
 

i) The distinction is made clear in Hebrews 1:4 where ‘better’ (Gk: kreitton) is used to teach Jesus’ superiority over the angels in His nature and position.
ii) This difference between ‘greater’ and ‘better’ is seen in this example:
‘The President of a country is greater (Greek: meizon) in position than his people, but as a human being he is not better (Greek: kreitton) in nature than his people’.
iii) Jesus in becoming a man, not only took on a lower position than the Father, but also took on a lower position than the angels. ‘But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death’. (Hebrews 2:9)

You are basing your example in order to spin the Strong's Concordances. That will not work in your favor when the evidence can be found on Biblehub and elsewhere. To add more fuel to the fire, you dodged both the context of the verse in what Jesus truly means, as is with references that solidifies this truth.

As for Hebrews 1:4, nowhere in that verse was G#3185 used (not even in French translations they'd make that mistake, as is with all translations, if anything the error lies in one man - you). Evidence here: 

    Hello guest!

According to Jesus, he does have a God, in fact, Jesus says a number of times in Scripture he has a God, even acknowledged it, even upon the brink of death, he called out to God, which was prophetical, due to what is read in Psalms.

Jesus was on earth because he was sent to not do his Will, according to John 14:10 and the verses found in John chapter 6, but the Will of the Father. He also points out the people are deemed happy for knowing that he is indeed The Son of God, granted pretty much everyone knew, even the demons and Satan knew, that God had sent him.

20 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

No need to be sorry, i am enjoying this polite and friendly discussion. Thank you.

Yes, the quotes you use are all of when Jesus WAS ON EARTH.

There are marginal references of Jesus after his course on earth. Why ignore this?

20 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

It was Jehovah the father speaking to Jehovah the son.

Elohim (El Shaddai) cannot be his own Bene Elohim. The Most High, be it Yahweh or Jehovah to the modern English speaker, is not his own Son. The Bible tells us that Yahweh/Jehovah is the Father, in both the Old and New Testament.

God was speaking to Jesus, all 3 occasions, there were witnesses to account for this experience, the latter, being found in John 12, whereas Jesus was indeed troubled of what is to come, the people, a crowd, witnessed the talk between a Father and his Son.

That being said.... Jehovah The Son???? That is a new one. What happen to "God the Son"? Did that term fashion trend die out?

20 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Wrong. 

The Holy Spirit is fully God and has personality as He can be blasphemed.

The Holy Spirit has the three attributes of personality, those being: mind, emotions and will.

An ‘active force’ does not have personal attributes. Your claim of the Holy Spirit being an active force is disproven if the Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit has mind,emotions & will.

The Holy Spirit intercedes or prays for believers.‘The Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings’. (Romans 8:26). 

The Holy Spirit hears. ‘Whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak.’ (John 16:13)

The Holy Spirit can be blasphemed.‘he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost’.Mk3:29

People cannot be blasphemed. We can only be slandered. Only God can be blasphemed.

The Holy Spirit uses personal pronouns to describe Himself: John 15:26; 16:13;(he):

‘The Holy Spirit said, Separate me Barnabus. . .’ (Acts 13:2).

Actually you are wrong. Using Spirit when the Greek Grammar Form points to Neuter-Masculine does not prove person-hood. Likewise with cities, and or objects, even death referred to as either He/Him/His or She/Her, etc. None of the which translates even close to person hood.

That being said, blood cries, and a rock speaks, a city gives herself into prostitution, etc. All these examples do not prove to be literal, likewise to a neutered word - Spirit. Which you have been refuted on in the past, as is with Cos, who said exactly the same thing as you have done.

Therefore, the spirit is an energy, a force, etc, even spoken of as God's hand/finger and or breathe, never in the Bible or in the Didache, is the Holy Spirit deemed a person. Ever.

That being said, you and the other Trinitarian CoS, were told this before, granted you believe this to be true, you were not able to even defend it in the past, even to the point you unknowingly attacked your own.

You may want to check the references for the verses you cited too, but obvious you refuse because it can prove your claim here to 4Jah2me as incorrect, thus exposing you to be in error.

20 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

A brilliant question, my friend.

Let's see what the Bible says.

God the father. Acts 10:40 "τοῦτον ὁ θεὸς ἤγειρεν τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρᾳ καὶ ἔδωκεν αὐτὸν ἐμφανῆ γενέσθαι" ) "Him God raised up the third day and shewed him openly"

God raised Jesus from the dead. God took him out of the pangs of death. This is said in Scripture a good number of times, even during Pentecost 33 A.D.

Jesus is spoken of to be the Firstborn out of the Dead (a title that no Trinitarian can prove connects to God succumbing to death hence the ideology),

On 8/3/2018 at 12:45 PM, Space Merchant said:

Jesus called Risen Christ and or Risen Jesus (Lord), as well as the other title known as Firstborn out of the Dead [out of Death].

for God himself cannot die, he isn't even a man, he is a spirit and is incorruptible (immortal), I agree with Paul, Job and countless others - God is indeed not a man.

20 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Jesus. John 2:19,21 "ἀπεκρίθη ὁ Ἰησοῦς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Λύσατε τὸν ναὸν τοῦτον καὶ ἐν τρισὶν ἡμέραις ἐγερῶ αὐτόν", "Jesus answered and said unto them Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up" 21 "ἐκεῖνος δὲ ἔλεγεν περὶ τοῦ ναοῦ τοῦ σώματος αὐτοῦ", "But he spake of the temple of his body"


The Holy Spirit. Romans 8:11 "εἰ δὲ τὸ πνεῦμα τοῦ ἐγείραντος Ἰησοῦν ἐκ νεκρῶν οἰκεῖ ἐν ὑμῖν ὁ ἐγείρας τὸν Χριστὸν ἐκ νεκρῶν ζῳοποιήσει καὶ τὰ θνητὰ σώματα ὑμῶν διὰ τὸ ἐνοικοῦν αὐτοῦ Πνεῦμα ἐν ὑμῖν", "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you"

Jesus was talking about what is take place. 

In context, the verses show us that Jesus' body was the Temple of God; the Word tabernacled in human flesh and that flesh was the Father's Temple. He, this body of flesh, was the Father's Word and he spoke the words of the Father. This account is about the Father's house, the Temple. Jesus' words were not his own but the Father's who sent him.

This body of flesh, His Temple, was His Word to the world. Since he was the Father's Word, there were two witnesses as according to the Law. Jesus tells us many times in John's Gospel that he spoke the words of the Father. He kept his Father's word for eternal life.

He says, for I did not speak from myself, but the Father Himself who sent me has given me commandment as to what to say and what to speak. I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told me.

  • John 3:34
  • John 6:30-36
  • John 12:50
  • John 14:10 (once again)

 

  • There in note,  Jesus is God’s Representative, enacting shaliah principle. Jesus always listens to God’s voice and speaks what God directs, hence the Jewish term, shaliah.


The words of Jesus at John 2:19 were the words of the Father. The Father's word is the word of life (1 John 1:1). In the Gospel of John, Jesus is the Father's word tabernacled in human flesh. Therefore, being the Father's word, what then did you expect the Father to say when these men asked Jesus by what authority he had cleared the Temple? Destroy this Temple and in 3 days I will raise it up.

As for Romans 8:11.... It alludes to the same thing, and it also adds the fact that those mentioned will also be raised up by God as well. You ignore this part of the verse for a reason, which is obvious. Because by means of your logic it would deem Christians to be God(s) in this sense, if you were to include that part, but the reality is, God has the ability to raise the dead, even entrusting said abilities to his own Son, Jesus, who can raise the dead (praying to God/asking him prior to resurrecting people), it also adds on to the fact that Christians because of God are made alive in the spirit, together in Christ.

Also it is best to remember the following: In he full passage, it says Jesus was given the authority to take it up again by a command of the Father. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever to claim John 2:19 means Jesus is God because he raised his own body if he needed to be given the authority to do so by God.

Shiwii, who is also a Trinitarian, brought up this verse, John 2:19 (as well as Hebrews 8:11), same conclusion, for the Firstborn out of the dead cannot raise himself, the Living God is the one who raised him, as his enabling him to raise the dead, as is with him enabling his followers. Whereas the latter, like Cos had the same outcome.

20 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Remember that Jesus condescended Himself to take on the likeness (form, appearance) of man and the form of a servant. (Phil 2:7). His becoming a man involved gaining human attributes (subject to weakness, pain, sorrow and temptation), but not giving up his divine attributes.

This is concerning Jesus becoming a man, not God. The marginal references to the verse you mention points this out. Evidence of this is that it even points to John 1:14 (and cf.).

That being said, to say something incorruptible became corruptible is a contradiction granted the Bible itself said God is not a man, even confirmed by Jesus at the Well of Jacob.

On 5/13/2018 at 7:39 PM, Space Merchant said:
  • Numbers 23:19 - God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?
  • 1 Samuel 15:29 - And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or have regret, for he is not a man, that he should have regret.”
20 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

If you wish to talk about other standard passages the watchtower uses like John 20:28, John 20:17, John 17:3, I Corinthians 8:6, Psalm 110:1, etc. i would be more than happy to have a friendly, polite non-confrontational discussion.

I think most of your above points, i have done short videos on.

Unfortunately for you, Non-Trinitarianism is not isolated to Jehovah's Witnesses alone, even Restorationism that predates the JWs before they existed, granted Christians today and even 1st century Christians did not believe in the Trinity, and there is ample evidence to this, some of which refuted your assertions 6 ways through Sunday, in the past.

As for those verses you mentioned, you cited them several times to spin the narrative into Trinitarianism, all of which, were dis-proven with the actual and legitimate truth.

That being said, you are, this time around as hard boiled as the Trinitarian David Wood, or that of Bob The Builder.

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@Space Merchant Thank you for all your work in this matter. I'm sorry that i do not go this deep. I know the truth in my own heart and that is really what matters to me.  When it comes to Trinitarians I see it as 'casting pearls before swine' and I'd rather concentrate on other things. But, thank you for you work. 

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    • By Space Merchant
      The Gospel of John

      John 17:3
      "And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."

       
      ? Proof of Trinitarian Error

      At John 17:3, Jesus identifies the only true God as the Father, the God whom he reveals to the world. The Trinitarian response is to claim that since the word only modifies/qualifies the word God it does not rule out the possibility that Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, are also the only true God.
      And so Trinitarians like to say in response:
      The Father is the only true God The Son is the only true God The Holy Spirit is the only true God In other words, the Trinitarian is admitting that if the word only had qualified the word  Father then yes only the Father would be the one true God. But since it does not, the Trinitarian insists that it does not rule out Jesus and the Holy Spirit from being the only true God too.
      The Trickery, Exposing the cracks in the Trinitarian Armor
      1. Matthew 24:36

      But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.
      We will begin with the above Trinitarian claim, which must be taken with a grain of salt. At Matthew 24:36, the word "only" DOES modify/qualify the Father and they still deny the obvious implications of the verse - that only the Father is omniscient and therefore only the Father is God. It says only the Father knows the day and hour. So we can see that even if Jesus had said, "Father.... this is eternal life, that ONLY You are the true God" that form of language still wouldn't make any difference to Trinitarians.
      God's day of judgement, that only he knows, will come like a thief in the night.

       
      2. Unwitting Admissions of Trinitarian Scholars

      In their discussions and debates of John 1:1, Trinitarians scholars admit that the use of a definite article at John 1:1c would have meant Jesus is the entirety of God and such language would exclude everyone else but Jesus. In fact, according to their own argument, all one would have to say is, "THE Father is THE God," and this would exclude absolutely everyone else. The words "only" and "true" would not even be required.
      3. Obvious Trinitarian Hypocrisy

      Trinitarians will insist that the expression, "God sent his only son", which means that nobody else is God's only-begotten son and it means that ONLY Jesus is God's only-begotten son. We must carefully regard the significance of this hypocrisy. On one hand, they insist the words "only Son" do mean that only Jesus is God's own son while at the same time they insist the words "only true God" do not mean that only the Father is the true God. But the situation is exactly the same. They are talking out of both sides of their mouth. Their claim that "only Son" means only Jesus is God's son betrays the fact that they really do know that John 17:3 is telling us only one person is the only true God.
      4. The Real Trinitarian Problem

      The real problem at hand for the Trinitarians is their implied definition of the word "God" for this verse. They must attempt to suggestively define the word "God" as "the divine ousia" or "the divine nature" since we are here talking about the one God and the oneness of Trinitarian doctrine is the divine nature. To define "God" as the divine nature here in this verse is the only definition of the word "God" which Trinitarians can even attempt:
      The Father is the only true [divine nature] The Son is the only true [divine nature] The Holy Spirit is the only true [divine nature] However, this will not even work for them at all. For Jesus to identify the Father as the divine nature would be confusing person and being, a big violation and or something they are not suppose to do in regards to their doctrine, that is, the Trinity. If the Father is identified as the divine nature that would mean Jesus' divine nature is the Father.
      5. "You" and "the only true God" are Necessary Equivalent.

      When Jesus says, "that they may know You, the only true God," it is quite clear that he intends to say that one is equivalent to the other. "You" = "the only true God." However, the only way Trinitarians can define the word "God" is to define it as "the divine nature." But that would imply that "You" and "Only true God" are equivalent things confusing the what and the who, person and being. Also, the Father is NOT equivalent to the divine nature since that would mean Jesus' divine nature is the Father in Trinitarian doctrine. When it is understood how they are suggestively defining their terms, it becomes clear that they are not making any sense.
      6. It's Not About Knowing a Nature but an Identity

      Jesus is here referring to knowing God the Father is a personal and intimate way, a personal relationship with God. The words "only true God" are a reference to an identity with whom we can have a relationship. We do not have relationships with natures; we have relationships with persons. And the person we are to have a relationship with here is "the only true God", that is, the Father.
      FATHER... that they may know YOU, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ whom YOU sent.
      The words "only true God" cannot refer to a divine nature. These words must refer to an identity with whom we can know, that is, with whom we can have an intimate personal relationship. Therefore, just as Trinitarian scholars have already admitted, the Father and "the only true God" are co-extensive interchangeable terms and this excludes all but the Father from identity as the only true God. To have a relationship with the only true God is to have a relationship with the Father. One cannot then say that the only true God is also Jesus with running headlong into the insanity of saying Jesus is the Father.
      7. Jesus Christ's Only True God

      At John 20:17, Jesus makes it quite clear that his God is to be our God and that God is his Father. At John 17:3, Jesus is in prayer to his God and Father. His Father is his only true God and his only true God is his Father alone and it is this only true God who sent Jesus as he says here. Jesus knows nobody else but his Father as the true God. Hence, we can be certain that when he refers to the Father as "the only true God" in prayer that he means only his Father is the true God. In fact, Jesus does not even need to say it. It is plainly evident quite apart from John 17:3 that nobody else but his Father alone is his God.
       
      Conclusion
      It is quite plain that the Trinitarian trickery here is to suggestively imply a definition of the word "God" which means "divine nature" so that they can say all three persons are the only true God, that is, all three persons have this one divine nature. However, it is clear that the word "God" is not a nature here but an identity, a person, the Father, with whom we have a personal relationship.
      Jesus here identifies his one and only God, the Father alone, as "the only true God," which thereby excludes everyone else including himself.




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    • Eric Ouellet

      CHANTONS À JÉHOVAH UN CHANT NOUVEAU
      Il est bon de rendre grâces à Jéhovah
      et d’exécuter des mélodies pour ton nom, ô Très-Haut !
      D’annoncer ta bonté de cœur le matin
      et ta fidélité pendant les nuits,
      sur un instrument à dix cordes et sur le luth,
      aux accords sonores de la harpe.
      Car tu m’as réjoui, ô Jéhovah, à cause de ton action ;
      à cause des œuvres de tes mains je pousse des cris de joie.
      Que tes œuvres sont grandes, ô Jéhovah !
      Tes pensées sont très profondes.
      L’homme dépourvu de raison ne peut les connaître,
      et le stupide ne peut comprendre cela.
      Quand les méchants germent comme la végétation
      et que fleurissent tous ceux qui 
      pratiquent ce qui est malfaisant,
      c’est pour être anéantis pour toujours.
      Mais toi, tu es là-haut pour des temps indéfinis, ô Jéhovah!
      Car voici que tes ennemis, ô Jéhovah,
      car voici que tes ennemis périront;
      tous ceux qui pratiquent ce qui est malfaisant seront séparés les uns des autres.
      Mais tu élèveras ma corne comme celle du taureau sauvage;
      je m’arroserai d’huile fraîche.
      Mon œil regardera mes ennemis;
      mes oreilles entendront parler de ceux
      qui se dressent contre moi, les malfaiteurs.
      Le juste fleurira comme un palmier ;
      il grandira comme un cèdre du Liban.
      Ceux qui sont plantés dans la maison de Jéhovah,
      dans les cours de notre Dieu — ils fleuriront.
      Ils prospéreront encore durant les cheveux gris,
      ils resteront gras et frais,
      pour annoncer que Jéhovah est droit.
      Il est mon Rocher, Celui en qui il n’y a pas d’injustice.
      Jéhovah lui-même est devenu roi!
      De grandeur il est vêtu ;
      Jéhovah est vêtu de force Il s’est ceint.
      Le sol productif aussi s’établit solidement
      de sorte qu’il ne peut chanceler.
      Ton trône est solidement établi depuis les temps anciens ;
      tu es depuis des temps indéfinis.
      Les fleuves ont fait retentir, ô Jéhovah,
      les fleuves ont fait retentir leur bruit ;
      les fleuves sans arrêt font retentir leur fracas.
      Par-dessus les bruits des eaux immenses,
      des vagues majestueuses de la mer qui déferlent,
      Jéhovah est majestueux dans les hauteurs.
      Tes rappels se sont révélés très dignes de foi.
      La sainteté convient à ta maison, ô Jéhovah,
      pour la longueur des jours.
      Ô Dieu aux actes de vengeance
      Jéhovah , ô Dieu aux actes de vengeance, apparais.
      Lève-toi, ô Juge de la terre!
      Fais revenir la rétribution sur les orgueilleux.
      Jusqu’à quand les méchants, ô Jéhovah,
      jusqu’à quand les méchants vont-ils exulter ?
      Sans cesse ils font jaillir un flot de paroles,
      sans cesse ils parlent avec audace;
      sans cesse ils se vantent, 
      tous ceux qui pratiquent ce qui est malfaisant.
      Ton peuple, ô Jéhovah, ils continuent à l’écraser,
      et ton héritage, ils continuent à l’affliger.
      Ils tuent la veuve et le résident étranger,
      ils assassinent les orphelins de père.
      Et ils continuent à dire : “ Yah ne voit pas;
      le Dieu de Jacob ne le comprend pas. ”
      Comprenez donc, vous qui êtes dépourvus de raison parmi le peuple;
      et vous, stupides, quand serez-vous perspicaces ?
      Celui qui plante l’oreille, est-ce qu’il ne peut pas entendre ?
      Ou Celui qui forme l’œil, est-ce qu’il ne peut pas regarder ?
      Celui qui corrige les nations, 
      est-ce qu’il ne peut pas reprendre,
      oui Celui qui enseigne la connaissance aux hommes?
      Jéhovah connaît les pensées des hommes,
      il sait qu’elles sont comme une vapeur.
      Heureux l’homme robuste que tu corriges, ô Yah,
      et que tu enseignes par ta loi,
      pour lui donner le calme aux jours du malheur,
      jusqu’à ce qu’une fosse soit creusée pour le méchant.
      Car Jéhovah n’abandonnera pas son peuple,
      et il ne quittera pas son héritage.
      Car la décision judiciaire retournera à la justice,
      et tous ceux qui ont le cœur droit la suivront.
      Qui se dressera pour moi contre les malfaiteurs?
      Qui se postera pour moi contre ceux qui pratiquent ce qui est malfaisant ?
      Si Jéhovah ne m’était venu en aide,
      sous peu mon âme aurait résidé dans le silence.
      Lorsque j’ai dit : “ À coup sûr, mon pied chancellera ”,
      ta bonté de cœur, ô Jéhovah, m’a soutenu sans relâche.
      Quand mes pensées troublantes se multiplièrent au-dedans de moi,
      tes consolations se mirent à cajoler mon âme.
      Sera-t-il allié à toi, le trône qui cause des adversités,
      tandis qu’il façonne le malheur par décret ?
      Ils lancent de vives attaques contre l’âme du juste
      et déclarent coupable le sang de l’innocent.
      Mais Jéhovah deviendra pour moi une hauteur sûre,
      et mon Dieu, le rocher de mon refuge.
      Il ramènera sur eux leurs méfaits
      et les réduira au silence par leur malheur.
      Jéhovah notre Dieu les réduira au silence.
      Oh ! venez, poussons des cris de joie vers Jéhovah !
      Poussons des cris de triomphe vers notre Rocher de salut.
      Présentons-nous devant sa personne avec des actions de grâces;
      avec des mélodies poussons vers lui des cris de triomphe.
      Car Jéhovah est un grand Dieu
      et un grand Roi au-dessus de tous les autres dieux,
      lui en la main de qui sont les profondeurs 
      les plus secrètes de la terre
      et à qui appartiennent les cimes des montagnes;
      lui à qui appartient la mer qu’il a faite
      et dont les mains ont formé la terre ferme.
      Oh ! entrez, adorons et courbons-nous!
      Agenouillons nous devant Jéhovah notre Auteur.
      Car il est notre Dieu, et nous sommes le peuple
      de son pâturage et les brebis de sa main.
      Aujourd’hui, si vous écoutez sa voix,
      n’endurcissez pas votre cœur comme à Meriba,
      comme au jour de Massa dans le désert,
      quand vos ancêtres m’ont mis à l’épreuve ;
      ils m’ont examiné, ils ont aussi vu mon action.
      Pendant quarante ans j’ai éprouvé du dégoût pour cette génération,
      alors j’ai dit :
      “ C’est un peuple au cœur errant,
      et ils n’ont pas appris à connaître mes voies ” ;
      à propos de qui j’ai juré dans ma colère:
      “ Ils n’entreront pas dans mon lieu de repos
      Chantez pour Jéhovah un chant nouveau.
      Chantez pour Jéhovah, vous tous, gens de la terre !
      Chantez pour Jéhovah, bénissez son nom.
      De jour en jour annoncez la bonne nouvelle de son salut.
      Proclamez parmi les nations sa gloire,
      parmi tous les peuples ses œuvres prodigieuses."
      Car Jéhovah est grand et on doit le louer infiniment.
      Il est redoutable par-dessus tous les autres dieux.
      Car tous les dieux des peuples sont des dieux sans valeur ;
      mais Jéhovah, lui, a fait les cieux.
      Dignité et splendeur sont devant lui;
      force et beauté sont dans son sanctuaire.
      Attribuez à Jéhovah, ô familles des peuples,
      attribuez à Jéhovah gloire et force.
      Attribuez à Jéhovah la gloire qui appartient à son nom;
      portez un don et entrez dans ses cours.
      Prosternez-vous devant Jéhovah en ornements sacrés;
      soyez dans de violentes douleurs à cause de lui, 
      vous tous, gens de la terre !
      Dites parmi les nations :
       “ Jéhovah lui-même est devenu roi."
      Le sol productif aussi s’établit solidement,
      de sorte qu’il ne peut chanceler.
      Il va plaider la cause des peuples avec droiture. 
      Que les cieux se réjouissent, et que la terre soit en joie.
      Que gronde la mer et ce qui la remplit.
      Qu’exulte la campagne et tout ce qui s’y trouve.
      Qu’en même temps tous les arbres de la forêt 
      poussent des cris de joie devant Jéhovah. 
      Car il est venu ;
      car il est venu pour juger la terre.
      Il jugera le sol productif avec justice
      et les peuples avec sa fidélité.
      Jéhovah lui-même est devenu roi ! 
      Que la terre soit en joie.
      Que les îles nombreuses se réjouissent
      Des nuages et une obscurité épaisse sont tout autour de lui;
      justice et jugement sont le lieu fixe de son trône.
      Devant lui marche un feu,
      il consume ses adversaires tout autour.
      Ses éclairs ont illuminé le sol productif ;
      la terre a vu, elle a été prise de violentes douleur.
      Alors les montagnes ont fondu
      comme de la cire à cause de Jéhovah,
      à cause du Seigneur de toute la terre.
      Les cieux ont annoncé sa justice,
      et tous les peuples ont vu sa gloire.
      Qu’ils soient honteux,
      tous ceux qui servent quelque image sculptée,
      ceux qui se glorifient en des dieux sans valeur.
      Prosternez-vous devant lui, vous tous les dieux !
      Sion a entendu et s’est alors réjouie,
      et les localités qui dépendent de Juda sont devenues joyeuses
      à cause de tes décisions judiciaires, ô Jéhovah !
      Car toi, ô Jéhovah, tu es le Très-Haut sur toute la terre ;
      tu es très haut dans ta montée par-dessus tous les autres dieux.
      Ô vous qui aimez Jéhovah,
      haïssez ce qui est mauvais.
      Il garde les âmes de ses fidèles;
      de la main des méchants il les délivre.
      La lumière est apparue pour le juste,
      et la joie pour ceux qui ont le cœur droit.
      Réjouissez-vous en Jéhovah, ô vous les justes,
      et rendez grâces à son saint mémorial.
      Chantez pour Jéhovah un chant nouveau,
      car prodigieuses sont les choses qu’il a faites.
      Sa droite, oui son saint bras, lui a procuré le salut.
      Jéhovah a fait connaître son salut;
      aux yeux des nations il a révélé sa justice.
      Il s’est souvenu de sa bonté de cœur et de sa fidélité
      envers la maison d’Israël.
      Toutes les extrémités de la terre ont vu le salut de notre Dieu.
      Poussez des cris de triomphe vers Jéhovah, vous tous, gens de la terre !
      Égayez-vous et poussez des cris de joie et exécutez des mélodies.
      Exécutez des mélodies pour Jéhovah avec la harpe,
      avec la harpe et la voix de la mélodie.
      Avec les trompettes et au son du cor,
      poussez des cris de triomphe devant le Roi, 
      JÉHOVAH.
      Que gronde la mer et ce qui la remplit,
      le sol productif et ceux qui y habitent.
      Que les fleuves battent des mains ;
      que toutes ensemble les montagnes poussent
      des cris de joie devant Jéhovah
      car il est venu pour juger la terre.
      Il jugera le sol productif avec justice
      et les peuples avec droiture.
      Jéhovah lui-même est devenu roi.
      Que les peuples s’agitent.
      Il siège sur les chérubins. 
      Que la terre frémisse.
      Jéhovah est grand dans Sion, et il est élevé
      par-dessus tous les peuples.
      Qu’ils louent ton nom.
      Grand et redoutable, celui-ci est saint.
      Avec une force de roi il a aimé le jugement.
      C’est toi qui as solidement établi la droiture.
      Le jugement et la justice en Jacob, c’est toi qui les as réalisés.
      Exaltez Jéhovah notre Dieu et prosternez-vous
      devant son marchepied ; Car Il est Saint.
      Moïse et Aaron étaient parmi ses prêtres,
      et Samuel parmi ceux qui invoquaient son nom.
      Ils appelaient Jéhovah, et lui leur répondait.
      Dans la colonne de nuage il leur parlait.
      Ils gardaient ses rappels et la prescription qu’il leur avait donnée.
      Ô Jéhovah notre Dieu, tu leur répondais toi-même.
      Tu as été pour eux un Dieu qui pardonne,
      mais qui exécutait la vengeance
      contre leurs actions scandaleuses.
      Exaltez Jéhovah notre Dieu
      et prosternez-vous à sa montagne saint.
      Car Jéhovah notre Dieu est saint.

      · 0 replies
    • folens  »  Eric Ouellet

      Hello Eric merci pour ce bon condensé sur les vœux. Bonne journée et à bientôt. Michel
      b-13-sculptures-de-givre-ggo-wp1.ppsx
      · 1 reply
    • Eric Ouellet

      « Le vœu que tu fais, acquitte toi de se voeux sans renoncer »
      « Tu dois t’acquitter envers Jéhovah de tes vœux » (MATTHIEU 5:33).
      YIPHTAH était un chef et un guerrier courageux. Hanna était une femme humble qui prenait soin de son mari et de sa famille. Tous les deux adoraient Jéhovah. Mais ils ont un autre point commun : ils ont fait un vœu à Jéhovah et ils l’ont respecté fidèlement. Ils sont d’excellents exemples pour les chrétiens qui décident de faire des vœux à Jéhovah. Répondons maintenant à ces trois questions : Qu’est-ce qu’un vœu ? Faire un vœu à Jéhovah, est-ce sérieux ? Quelles leçons tirer des histoires de Yiphtah et de Hanna ?
      Dans la Bible, un vœu est une promesse sérieuse faite à Jéhovah. Par exemple, la promesse de faire quelque chose, d’offrir quelque chose, de commencer un certain service, ou de ne pas faire certaines choses. On fait un vœu volontairement, en utilisant sa liberté de choix. Personne n’est obligé de faire un vœu. Mais si on décide d’en faire un, Jéhovah le considère comme une promesse dont on doit s’acquitter. D’après la Bible, un vœu est aussi important qu’un serment. Un serment, c’est quand une personne jure de faire ou de ne pas faire quelque chose (Genèse 14:22, 23 ; Hébreux 6:16, 17). Que dit la Bible à propos du sérieux des vœux faits à Jéhovah ?
      Dans la Loi de Moïse, on lit que si quelqu’un fait un vœu à Jéhovah, « il ne doit pas violer (trahir) sa parole. Il fera selon tout ce qui est sorti de sa bouche » (Nombres 30:2). Plus tard, Salomon a écrit : « Quand tu fais un vœu à Dieu, n’hésite pas à t’en acquitter, car il n’y a aucun plaisir dans les stupides. Le vœu que tu fais, acquitte-t’en » (Ecclésiaste 5:4). Plus tard encore, Jésus a enseigné qu’un vœu fait à Jéhovah est quelque chose de sérieux, en rappelant : « Il a été dit à ceux des temps anciens : “Tu ne dois pas jurer sans tenir [parole], mais tu dois t’acquitter envers Jéhovah de tes vœux” » (Matthieu 5:33).
      C’est donc clair qu’il faut prendre très au sérieux toute promesse qu’on fait à Jéhovah. Respecter ou non nos vœux a des conséquences sur notre relation avec lui. Un jour, David a demandé : « Qui pourra monter à la montagne de Jéhovah, et qui pourra se lever en son lieu saint », autrement dit être accepté par Jéhovah ? Il a répondu que c’est celui qui ne fait pas de « serment avec tromperie » (Psaume 24:3, 4). Mais quels vœux Yiphtah et Hanna ont-ils faits ? Cela a-t-il été facile pour eux de s’en acquitter ?
      ILS SE SONT ACQUITTÉS DE LEURS VŒUX
      Yiphtah a fait sa promesse à Jéhovah avant de combattre les Ammonites, des ennemis du peuple de Jéhovah (Juges 10:7-9). Il a fait ce vœu (en résumé) : « Si vraiment tu me donnes la victoire, voici ce qui devra arriver : quand je reviendrai en paix de chez les fils d’Ammôn, la personne qui sortira de ma maison à ma rencontre, celle-là devra alors t’appartenir. » Jéhovah a répondu à la prière de Yiphtah en l’aidant à gagner la guerre. Quand Yiphtah est rentré chez lui, sa fille chérie est sortie vers lui. Ce serait donc elle qui « appartiendrait à Jéhovah » (Juges 11:30-34). Qu’est-ce que cela allait changer pour elle ?
      Pour respecter le vœu de Yiphtah, sa fille devrait partir servir Jéhovah à plein temps au tabernacle. Yiphtah avait-il fait son vœu sans réfléchir ? Non. Il savait sans doute que sa fille pourrait être la première personne à sortir vers lui. Mais qu’il l’ait su ou pas, cela n’a pas été facile pour lui de respecter son vœu, et pour sa fille non plus. En effet, en la voyant sortir, il a dit que cela lui causait un grand chagrin. Et elle, elle est partie « pleurer sur sa virginité ». Pourquoi ont-ils pleuré ? Yiphtah n’avait pas de fils, et maintenant sa fille unique ne se marierait jamais et n’aurait pas d’enfant. Le nom de famille de Yiphtah disparaîtrait. Mais tous les deux comprenaient que le plus important, ce n’étaient pas leurs sentiments. Yiphtah a dit : « J’ai ouvert ma bouche pour Jéhovah ; je ne [peux pas] revenir en arrière. » Et sa fille a répondu : « Fais-moi selon ce qui est sorti de ta bouche » (Juges 11:35-39). Tous les deux étaient des personnes fidèles : ils n’auraient jamais eu l’idée de casser un vœu fait à Jéhovah, même si c’était difficile de le respecter (lire Deutéronome 23:21, 23 ; Psaume 15:4).
      Hanna aussi a fait un vœu à Jéhovah dans un moment difficile de sa vie. Elle était malheureuse parce qu’elle ne pouvait pas avoir d’enfants, et qu’à cause de cela elle subissait des remarques méchantes (1 Samuel 1:4-7, 10, 16). En exprimant ses sentiments à Jéhovah, elle lui a fait cette promesse : « Ô Jéhovah des armées, si tu ne manques pas de regarder l’affliction (le chagrin) de ton esclave et si vraiment tu te souviens de moi, si tu n’oublies pas ton esclave et si vraiment tu donnes à ton esclave un descendant mâle, oui je le donnerai à Jéhovah pour tous les jours de sa vie, et le rasoir ne viendra pas sur sa tête. » (1 Samuel 1:11). Jéhovah a répondu à sa prière : l’année suivante elle a eu un fils, Samuel. Elle était très heureuse ! Mais elle n’a pas oublié le vœu qu’elle avait fait à Jéhovah. Après la naissance de son fils, elle a dit : « C’est à Jéhovah que je l’ai demandé » (1 Samuel 1:20).
      Quand Samuel a eu environ trois ans, Hanna a tenu sa promesse. Elle a amené Samuel au grand prêtre Éli, en disant : « C’est à propos de ce garçon que je priais, pour que Jéhovah m’accorde [...] ce que je lui demandais. Et moi, à mon tour, je l’ai prêté à Jéhovah » (1 Samuel 1:24-28). À partir de ce jour-là, Samuel a habité au tabernacle. La Bible dit que « le garçon Samuel grandissait auprès de Jéhovah » (1 Samuel 2:21). Cela n’allait pas être facile pour Hanna de respecter son vœu. Elle ne pourrait plus passer du temps chaque jour avec son fils qu’elle aimait tendrement. Ce serait dur de ne pas le voir grandir. Mais elle a pris son vœu au sérieux. Pour tenir sa promesse, elle a accepté volontiers de sacrifier des choses qui étaient importantes pour elle (1 Samuel 2:1, 2 ; lire Psaume 61:1, 5, 8).
      Parmi les vœux faits à Jéhovah, il y a le vœu de l’offrande de soi, le vœu du mariage et le vœu des serviteurs spéciaux à plein temps
      T’acquittes-tu de tes vœux envers Jéhovah ?
      LE VŒU DE L’OFFRANDE DE SOI
      Le vœu le plus grand qu’un chrétien puisse faire, c’est celui de s’offrir à Jéhovah pour toute la vie. Dans une prière personnelle, ce chrétien promet à Jéhovah d’utiliser sa vie pour le servir pour toujours, quoi qu’il arrive. En faisant ce vœu, il « se renie lui-même » : il promet de donner la plus grande importance non pas à lui-même, mais à Jéhovah (Matthieu 16:24). À partir de ce moment, il appartient à Jéhovah (Romains 14:8). Il prend au sérieux son vœu d’offrande de soi. Il pense comme l’écrivain des Psaumes qui a dit : « Que rendrai-je à Jéhovah pour tous ses bienfaits envers moi ? Je m’acquitterai de mes vœux envers Jéhovah, oui devant tout son peuple » (Psaume 116:12, 14).
      As-tu fait le vœu d’offrir ta vie à Jéhovah, et l’as-tu montré en te faisant baptiser dans l’eau ? Si oui, félicitations ! Rappelle-toi le discours de ton baptême. Le frère t’a demandé si tu avais offert ta vie à Jéhovah, et si tu comprenais qu’en te faisant baptiser, tu montrais « que tu devenais Témoin de Jéhovah ». En entendant ton « oui », tous les assistants ont compris que tu avais offert ta vie à Jéhovah et que tu pouvais te faire baptiser ministre ordonné de Jéhovah. Tu as certainement fait très plaisir à Jéhovah !
      Quand tu t’es fait baptiser, tu as promis à Jéhovah d’utiliser ta vie pour le servir, et de tout faire pour obéir à ses normes. Mais le baptême n’est qu’un début. Le temps passant, on doit tous continuer à s’examiner. Alors, demande-toi : « Ma relation avec Jéhovah est-elle de plus en plus forte depuis mon baptême ? Est-ce que je le sers toujours de tout mon cœur ? (Colossiens 3:23). Est-ce que je prie souvent ? Est-ce que je lis la Bible tous les jours ? Est-ce que j’assiste régulièrement aux réunions de la congrégation ? Est-ce que je prêche aussi souvent que possible ? Ou, au contraire, est-ce que j’ai perdu un peu de mon envie de faire ces activités ? » D’après l’apôtre Pierre, pour ne pas devenir inactifs dans notre service pour Jéhovah, nous devons nous efforcer de faire grandir en nous la foi, la connaissance, l’endurance et l’attachement à Jéhovah (lire 2 Pierre 1:5-8).
      Une fois que quelqu’un a prononcé le vœu de servir Jéhovah, il ne peut pas reprendre sa parole. S’il en a assez de servir Jéhovah ou de vivre en chrétien, il ne peut pas dire : « Je n’ai jamais vraiment offert ma vie à Jéhovah ; mon baptême n’était pas valable* » (lire la note). Si un chrétien commet un péché grave alors qu’il s’est offert à Jéhovah, il est responsable de sa conduite devant Jéhovah et la congrégation (Romains 14:12). Nous ne voulons pas ressembler aux chrétiens à qui Jésus a dit : « Tu as laissé l’amour que tu avais au début. » Au contraire, nous voulons qu’il puisse nous dire : « Je connais tes actions, et ton amour, et ta foi, et ton ministère, et ton endurance, et je sais que tes actions récentes sont plus nombreuses que celles d’autrefois » (Révélation 2:4, 19). Nous voulons faire plaisir à Jéhovah en nous acquittant avec zèle de notre vœu.
      LE VŒU DU MARIAGE
      Des mariés échangent leurs vœux de mariage
      Le deuxième vœu le plus important qu’on puisse faire, c’est celui du mariage. Le mariage est sacré. Jéhovah considère ce vœu comme quelque chose de très sérieux. Quand des mariés prononcent leurs vœux, ils font une promesse devant Jéhovah et devant les personnes présentes. Ils se promettent de s’aimer, de se chérir et de se respecter l’un l’autre aussi longtemps qu’ils vivront ensemble sur la terre dans le cadre du mariage tel qu’il a été institué par Dieu. Quelles que soient les paroles exactes que les mariés se disent, dans tous les cas, ce sont des vœux faits devant Jéhovah. En les faisant, ils deviennent mari et femme. Le mariage doit être une union pour toute la vie (Genèse 2:24 ; 1 Corinthiens 7:39). Jésus a dit que personne ne doit séparer ce que Jéhovah a uni (Marc 10:9). Un homme et une femme qui se marient ne doivent pas se dire que, si leur union ne marche pas, ils pourront toujours divorcer.
      Bien sûr, il n’y a pas de mariage parfait puisqu’il n’y a pas d’humain parfait. C’est pourquoi la Bible dit que toute personne mariée aura parfois « des tribulations (des problèmes) » (1 Corinthiens 7:28). Dans le monde d’aujourd’hui, beaucoup ne prennent pas le mariage au sérieux. Ils pensent : « Si ça ne marche pas, on pourra toujours divorcer. » Mais les chrétiens ne considèrent pas le mariage de cette façon. Ils sont conscients qu’ils ont prononcé leur vœu de mariage devant Jéhovah. S’ils cassaient leur vœu, ce serait comme s’ils lui mentaient. Or Jéhovah déteste les menteurs ! (Lévitique 19:12 ; Proverbes 6:16-19). Les chrétiens mariés doivent se rappeler ces paroles de l’apôtre Paul : « Es-tu lié à une femme ? Cesse (arrête) de chercher à t’en détacher » (1 Corinthiens 7:27). Paul a pu dire cela parce qu’il savait que Jéhovah déteste aussi les divorces quand ils sont des trahisons (Malaki 2:13-16).
      Jésus a enseigné que la seule situation qui donne une raison de divorcer, c’est lorsqu’un mari ou une femme commet l’adultère (est infidèle à son conjoint) et que le conjoint innocent décide de ne pas lui pardonner (Matthieu 19:9 ; Hébreux 13:4). Par ailleurs, peut-on se séparer de son conjoint ? La Bible est claire à ce sujet aussi (lire 1 Corinthiens 7:10, 11). Il n’existe pas de raison biblique de se séparer de son conjoint. Mais parfois un chrétien (ou une chrétienne) pense que c’est absolument nécessaire. Par exemple, il est sûr que sa vie ou sa relation avec Jéhovah seront en très grand danger s’il reste avec un conjoint violent.
      Si des conjoints demandent conseil aux anciens de la congrégation pour rendre leur couple plus solide, les anciens pourraient leur demander s’ils ont regardé la vidéo Qu’est-ce que le vrai amour ? et s’ils ont étudié la brochure Le secret des familles heureuses. Ces documents montrent quels principes bibliques peuvent rendre un mariage plus solide. Des Témoins racontent : « Depuis que nous étudions cette brochure, notre couple est plus heureux que jamais. » Une sœur mariée depuis 22 ans pensait que son mariage allait bientôt se briser. Mais elle a regardé la vidéo. Elle raconte : « Nous sommes tous les deux baptisés, mais sur le plan affectif nous étions complètement différents. La vidéo est arrivée au bon moment ! Maintenant, notre couple va beaucoup mieux. » Vraiment, si un mari et une femme appliquent les conseils de Jéhovah, leur union devient plus heureuse et plus forte.
      LE VŒU DES SERVITEURS SPÉCIAUX À PLEIN TEMPS
      Au début de l’article, nous avons parlé des vœux de Yiphtah et de Hanna. Grâce à ces vœux, la fille de Yiphtah et le fils de Hanna ont passé leur vie à servir Jéhovah d’une façon spéciale. À notre époque, beaucoup de parents chrétiens ont encouragé leurs enfants à s’engager dans le ministère à plein temps et à concentrer leur vie sur le service pour Jéhovah. En fait, nous pouvons tous encourager ces jeunes frères et sœurs à tenir bon dans leur service (Juges 11:40 ; Psaume 110:3).
      Aujourd’hui, il y a des dizaines de milliers de membres de l’Ordre international des serviteurs spéciaux à plein temps des Témoins de Jéhovah. Certains servent au Béthel, ou dans l’activité de construction ou alors dans le service de la circonscription. D’autres sont formateurs aux écoles bibliques, pionniers spéciaux, missionnaires, ou serviteurs affectés à une Salle d’assemblées ou à un centre d’écoles bibliques. Ils ont tous fait un « Vœu d’obéissance et de pauvreté ». En le faisant, ils ont promis de concentrer leurs efforts sur toute activité qu’on leur donne au service de Jéhovah, d’avoir une vie simple, et de ne pas avoir un emploi payé s’ils n’en ont pas l’autorisation. Ce ne sont pas les personnes qui sont considérées comme spéciales, mais leurs activités. Ces chrétiens sont humbles, et ils sont décidés à s’acquitter de leur vœu tout le temps qu’ils resteront dans le service spécial à plein temps.
      Dans cet article, nous avons étudié trois vœux qu’un chrétien pourrait faire aujourd’hui à Jéhovah. Peut-être que tu en as fait un, ou deux, ou les trois. Nous savons que nous devons prendre nos vœux au sérieux et tout faire pour les respecter (Proverbes 20:25). Si nous ne respectons pas nos vœux faits à Jéhovah, les conséquences risquent d’être graves (Ecclésiaste 5:6). Faisons donc comme le psalmiste qui a dit à Jéhovah : « Je veux exécuter des mélodies pour ton nom à jamais (pour toujours), pour m’acquitter de mes vœux jour après jour » (Psaume 61:8).


      · 0 replies
    • K625XM

      Hello Twyla,
      I am not able to view the study materials.  Can you help me out pls ?  Thank you.
      · 0 replies
    • Claud's Lst  »  misette

      Bonjour ma sœur Misette. Comment vas-tu ? J'espère avec l'aide de Jéhovah toute la communauté et especialement toi vont bien. 
      Je n'ai pas reçu la réunion de cette semaine, est-ce qu'il y a un problème pour cette semaine ? 
           Bonne journée ou soirée 
                                   Agape 
      · 3 replies
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