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The WEST's war of words against CHINA. Starting with the Uyghurs.

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By now, most people have heard about the "Weeger" issues in China. There are supposedly concentration camps, torture camps, medical experiments, thousands imprisoned, etc. When someone changed thousands to "for all we know, there might even be millions" the new number changed to "millions" without Western media even batting an eyelash. 

So here's an opinion about it, which focuses on Xinjiang Province (also known as the “Uyghur Autonomous Region”)...

There’s a lot of background to this, but the basic problem is geopolitical: The US wants to sabotage the growth of China as a world power in favor of the Western model of capitalism and imperialism.

What imperialist Western elites see as China’s weakest links are its new Belt & Road Initiative (BRI: an infrastructure project to expand high-speed rail, telecommunications, and both dirty and renewable energy worldwide) and its relations with other Asian and Muslim countries (which are increasingly friendly). There has been a “New Cold War” against China since Obama’s/Hillary’s “Pivot to Asia” strategy (of which the TPP and the deployment of THAAD in Korea were a part), but especially renewed now since Trump’s propaganda and trade war. China is threatened by HUNDREDS of US military bases and nukes surrounding it (and Russia, Iran, etc.)!

The basis for the propaganda has always existed, of course: “Tiananmen Square was a heartless massacre proving the unpopularity of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP),” “Hong Kong is being brutalized by Beijing,” “China is genociding Tibet,” and so on. I think most of these issues are lies — completely fabricated — or distortions of reality not presenting the whole story. The CCP, for example, is one of the most (perhaps THE most) popular political parties in the world, which hilariously perplexes international polling agencies and Harvard researchers time and time again.

[See “Understanding CCP Resilience” by Harvard University. The writing is biased, but the researchers are forced to admit the fact that the Chinese people — and particularly underprivileged minorities — are in love with the Party.]

This claim — “China is genociding Muslims” — is no different. The “1 million Uyghurs in concentration camps” and “forced to eat pork” are complete fabrications. They were alleged by one US official, and then some Western diplomats went along with it. Most of the recent “reports” and “statistics” (which extrapolated numbers to ALL of Xinjiang from a localized study!) originate from US-funded think-tanks, usually involving a man named Adrian Zenz. Zenz is a right-wing Christian fundamentalist who believes that he has been “led by God” against the unspeakable evil of China. In Western media, when they write “reports show” such and such, find their source; it’s typically Adrian Zenz.

[See: https://thegrayzone.com/2019/12/21/china-detaining-millions-uyghurs-problems-claims-us-ngo-researcher/ ]

It has not merited an official statement by the UN. In fact, nearly every Muslim-majority country has praised China’s response to the rise of Islamic extremism and terrorism in Xinjiang Province.

Speaking of which, how did this extremism arise in the first place? One answer is poverty and lack of adequate education. The other is the promotion and funding of Jihadist terrorist groups by the US and the West since the 1980s, first against the Soviet Union, and then again recently in Afghanistan, Pakistan, former Yugoslavia, Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Syria, Libya, and China — all of which have sizable Muslim populations. This includes some fundamentalist propaganda and especially weapons from U.S. allies in Turkey, Qatar, and Saudi Arabia (but which are now beginning to move closer to China).

Everybody knows the history, how Obama expanded the wars into Syria and Libya by arming Jihadists, how Hillary admitted we aided Al-Qaeda, and how, going back even further, the New York Times praised Osama bin Laden himself on the cover as our “freedom fighter.” We also don’t need to review the aftermath. We all know how devastating it was, how many millions lost their lives due to the civil wars and US bombs. We also know how many lies we were told, about “weapons of mass destruction” and “chemical warfare.”

China responded to Islamic extremism in Xinjiang Province — which shares borders with Pakistan, India, etc. — through poverty alleviation, education centers, and arrest/punishment for crimes (such as stabbing) or possessing incriminating materials (propaganda, knives, etc.). Most Muslim countries believed this response to be unprecedentedly good. Pakistan went so far as to say that this should be the “model for antiterrorism.”

[See also: https://medium.com/@leohezhao/xinjiang-facts-vs-fiction-bdc2aa403c91 ]

Another thing to research (with a skeptical eye of course) is the 2009 Urumqi Riots in China. These incidents, in which many ethnically Han Chinese people were arrested for retaliating against Muslim violence in Xinjiang, were ugly and brutal, and scarred the CCP and all the peoples of China, especially Muslims. Many Uyghurs also fled China to fight alongside ISIS and Al-Nusra “rebels” (Al-Qaeda) in Syria. This is well-documented! And these are typically the Uyghurs quoted in explosive “news reports” crying “My husband was murdered!!!”

Some more facts: China has built thousands of mosques, both within China and throughout the Middle East and Africa. How can this be explained? The Uyghur population has nearly DOUBLED since 1990, as minority ethnic groups (like them) are guaranteed certain privileges and exemptions by the Chinese Constitution in order to (as the party states) “combat Han chauvinism.” How is this possible if they are being “genocided”? Road signs and schools use Arabic and Uyghur scripts along with Chinese. Many Chinese and Uyghurs intermarry! Do those sound like “genocide”?

In short, there’s a real propaganda campaign ramping up. It’s very possible (and very stupid) that a war with China is brewing. The illegal actions against Huawei (the world leader in 5G technology) are yet another example. Unfortunately, our entire social media experience from the top-down is manipulated by elites, the ones who own it and all the other media we consume.

It is extremely tempting to fall into peer pressure these days and deny real research about this issue because it makes one look like a "genocide denier." Revealing what the research shows makes one seem "evil" for not following what others think. And that is exactly how propaganda works in the modern age, all while the details and research required to become informed are increasingly in the hands of mega-monopolies like Google and CNN.

Sometimes, one can learn from the mistakes of these same media companies, too. Twitter, Facebook, and Youtube can quickly ban someone who get complaints against them for showing evidence that goes against Western propaganda. SkyNews just ran a story about claimed Uyghur torture, and they used footage of prisoners in blindfolds. Embarrassingly, it turned out to be SkyNews' own footage from a few years earlier of a prisoner transfer of Han Chinese, not Uyghurs. It had nothing to do with torture, or Muslims. (Blindfolding prisoners during transfers is common practice in many countries.) The original report knew this, but the footage was re-used to fit Western propaganda. There have been many such examples. Another time it was footage of the U.S. capturing Muslims that had nothing to do with China or Uyghurs. Another time it was footage from Thailand or Indonesia repurposed to supposedly show Muslim Uyghurs in China. People have pointed out mistakes in claiming certain persons were Uyghurs just because they looked like they were wearing Muslim garb, which turned out to be a style from Muslims unique to other countries.

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7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Unfortunately, our entire social media experience from the top-down is manipulated by elites, the ones who own it and all the other media we consume.

This statement is 100% spot-on truth. 

I think is started when the Supreme Court decided $ = Speech and that a corporation is a person and hence illegal to curb the corporate "free speech" 20 some years ago.

 

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On 7/26/2020 at 6:19 PM, JW Insider said:

“Tiananmen Square was a heartless massacre proving the unpopularity of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP),” “Hong Kong is being brutalized by Beijing,” “China is genociding Tibet,” and so on. I think most of these issues are lies — completely fabricated — or distortions of reality not presenting the whole story. The CCP, for example, is one of the most (perhaps THE most) popular political parties in the world, which hilarious

Your personal opinion is not important!  It is the FACTs on the ground that remains important.   Atrocities are being hidden unsuccessfully by the Central communist party because real journalists, who know their job, are smuggling out evidence and secretly talking to people who know what is going on.

You have eaten up all the propaganda spun by some pro-communist newspapers in USA (most are now sympathetic to cultural marxism because the UNITED Nations has decided that China is the way forward for the One World Government and its agenda 2030 plans.).  China pays most newspapers in USA to publish good things about them.  This has been going on for years! They have infiltrated universities, media and even have spies working in US who threaten expatriates' lives if they talk negatively about China. Many of the PHD students who are at strategic departments at universities are military personnel...ready to steal new developments.  

America has woken up much too late! Russia and China have turned brutal in their internal affairs. They treated foreign students well before but have become openly hostile to foreigners! The propaganda on TV is hostile to foreigners and US.  I know people who have left china. 

As allies, Russia and China are the true king of the NORTH - ready to contend and undermine America's position (the king of the south). Their allies are all the renegade countries of the world such as Iran, Turkey and many ex-soviet countries who still have totalitarian governments or are close to it with strong ties to Russia. The US Petro-dollar currency will be replaced by a new world currency … once the reset is complete. The dollar will soon no longer be the exchange currency.

The capitalist facelift that both Russia and China experienced for nearly 20 years is something from the past!  Both are going back to the old hardened form of communism.  Stalin has once again become popular in Russia and his millions of murders of his own citizens has been whitewashed  (40 million down to 20 million) and so has Mao se Tung been sanctified with his murders down to 40 million of his own citizens.  Communism - because it is atheist - has no respect for life.  Vietnam, Cambodia, North Korea are all examples of severe oppression of its citizens and the killing of unwanted citizens. The Russian orthodox is a hollow religions.  Burning of candles and an excellent vehicle for propagandizing Putin's plans and nationalism  

1 million Muslims are in forced labor camps. Their children are taken away and 're-trained'  to be good communist citizens with NO religion.  The Muslims make Nike, H & M and other famous brands in the forced labor factories.  More than 10,000 people per year are killed for their body parts.  Doctors who have defected have told about these abuses. For medical tourists they have body parts immediately available - no waiting time. There are at least 7 hospitals that do organ transplants every day of the week and their programs are full!

Just to mention one of your assertions about Tibet: China has, and is using the source of all the fresh water which originate in Tibet. They want to make dams for the creation of electricity too !  (The rivers of India and china originate in these mountains). .....and yes - they are doing as all communist countries do (Russia does the same) - they move populations out, and replace them with Chinese or Russian citizens who are loyal to the regime.  This is ongoing.

China is famous for its predatory loans to get control of fast territories and also ports, airports etc.....Not just in all the silk road countries but in Africa and south America. Iran (their other ally - has criminal gangs in Argentina which is making life unbearable for an already suffering people. Resources such as rare earth minerals, wood, fishing waters are being stolen or taken by china. Russia is now in a proxy war in Libya to try to get access of the port to the Mediterranean sea... it already has a port in Syria.  I think you underestimate both Russia and China as the leaders of the communist world!  Putin has now become president for life and immediately on this announcement clamped down on journalists. He is open about his greed for power - as is China, Iran and many of their allies.  Read Daniel 11: 36-40.  It is not just an economic pushing - it may still turn ugly!

Do not push ideas that are against JW teachings and do not push pro-Marxist propaganda on us when we all know that Russia is the King of the North! We do not take sides in the political battles BUT to try to paint China as an innocent who has been maligned - is absolutely incorrect.  Neither is Russia innocent of all the atrocities - especially against Jehovah's people.  China are also using body parts of 'conscientious objectors' for their transplants! and organs are removed while the patients are conscious!

NO organized religion is allowed in china. China agreed with the pope that they would appoint bishops to the catholic church - and once they knew all the catholic inside business they started clamping down on them...….. not to be trusted.  Personally,   I do not care about China's horrific politics because we cannot do anything about it - only Jehovah can do this in future.  What I do now - they are allies with Russia and absolutely wicked in how they are killing their own people.  This is a good point when doing field service when atheists push their ideas.  To show the history of atheist countries. How they killed millions of people in the early 20th century gives them quite a wake-up call because many do not know this history!

This atheist  ideology  is overtaking the world because it has been taught in schools. (Part of UN UNESCO curricula). Satan will use it as a vehicle for severe oppression in future so that Jehovah will have to step in - otherwise no flesh will be saved.  Many are going to die of hunger and oppression in the great tribulation due to a central world government pushed by UN.  USA seems to be heading for a similar type of government with the youth now asking for social justice and a revolution. 

Whether a powerful central government comes in by vote or by dictator - the result is the same.  There is no equality.  The top echelons rule and the bottom are all equal.  Only those that worship the state can  rise to the top and those without a conscience.... this is awaiting the world. 

I believe it when the bible says that it will be the worst tribulation the world have ever seen and I know that a new form of Marxism and central government (united nations together with those who have handed over its power to them) will be calling the shots.  They will turn against all religion and persecute us. Why? because they hate all religion and it is satan's plan to get every person on earth compromised so they cannot get Jehovah's approval. all will be forced to worship the state /beast.

 

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1 hour ago, Arauna said:

We do not take sides in the political battles BUT to try to paint China as an innocent who has been maligned - is absolutely incorrect. 

It may be one of those “what goes around comes around situations.” 

Isn’t Bolshevikism in Russia a Western import, injected to better ensure an outcome of WW1, without any regard for the peoples there?

Didn’t the Opium Wars serve to illustrate the West’s only interest in China—as an enriching market, and if you had to transform the population into addicts, so be it? Not to mention how peeved they were after the war that Japan, the country that had behaved so savagely towards them, was nonetheless restored by the US—whereas their interests counted for squat?

Everything may be just as you say, and to be sure, I suspect that JWI is a closet-pinko :) still, it seems to me a case of how the sins of the fathers come home to roost.

@Annashould weigh in on this, for I recall her saying how she has lived under communist rule and is not a fan.

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2 hours ago, Arauna said:

Your personal opinion is not important!  It is the FACTs on the ground that remains important.

Absolutely true.

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

You have eaten up all the propaganda spun by some pro-communist newspapers in USA

Absolutely false.

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

China pays most newspapers in USA to publish good things about them.

This isn't about US newspapers. It's about facts on the ground. It's also about researching facts, opinions, perspectives, ideologies, propaganda, etc. This can come from hundreds, if not thousands of journalists (and other sources) from many different countries who have been able to get information out of China. One needs to compare the perspectives of those who love China, hate China, and those who are neutral, or at least somewhere in between. One needs to consider the opinions and evidence of those who live in the many various parts of China, both Chinese (many ethnic varieties) and non-Chinese. One needs to consider the opinions and evidence of those who study China from both the inside and the outside. Ones who have left China, ones who have gone back, ones who will never go back, etc.

You can't just get your information from newspapers. Learning about China is a huge project that requires even the most unlikely sources. You have to especially consider what people will admit being surprised about because it goes against their general ideology, and they look for ways to explain it, or (more rarely) adjust their ideology. You should also look at documents about planned propaganda from various sides that was not meant to be leaked to the public. (Also watch out for supposedly secret documents that were planned to be leaked to the public.)

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

As allies, Russia and China are the true king of the NORTH - ready to contend and undermine America's position (the king of the south).

This is not about Russia. I have often found that people who need to hang on to a specific political and/or religious ideology will tend to believe almost anything they hear that fits their world view, and will tend to dismiss any evidence that threatens their religious or political ideology. They often give themselves away by making it a religious issue.

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

Do not push ideas that are against JW teachings and do not push pro-Marxist propaganda on us when we all know that Russia is the King of the North!

Did I mention that they often give themselves away by making it a religious issue? It's very easy to fall for propaganda from anywhere, and all nations are guilty of producing propaganda. This should be about facts and evidence.

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

Stalin has once again become popular in Russia and his millions of murders of his own citizens has been whitewashed  (40 million down to 20 million) and so has Mao se Tung been sanctified with his murders down to 40 million of his own citizens.

It's very easy to make outrageous claims when no one requires evidence.

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

More than 10,000 people per year are killed for their body parts.  Doctors who have defected have told about these abuses.

Evidence?

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

China is famous for its predatory loans to get control of fast territories and also ports, airports etc.....Not just in all the silk road countries but in Africa and south America.

It's almost the opposite. China is actually famous for NOT engaging in these common practices of the U.S. and other Western countries. China has also been quick to completely relieve countries of their debts.

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

China are also using body parts of 'conscientious objectors' for their transplants! and organs are removed while the patients are conscious!

Assertions made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

Whether a powerful central government comes in by vote or by dictator - the result is the same.  There is no equality.  The top echelons rule and the bottom are all equal.

You shouldn't get the impression that revealing facts and evidence that tends to defend an entity or government somehow makes that entity or government automatically good or right in the eyes of the person providing the evidence. Just because a certain government might turn out to be better than they have been previously presented, doesn't mean that this certain government is everything it claims to be.

Even if a certain type of government typically tends to do more for the poorer classes, and tends to equalize the difference between upper echelons and the poor, it doesn't mean that this problem is actually solved. But dismissing evidence just because one thinks that accepting it would endanger their Christian and/or Western world view is not even necessary.

There is another way in which Biblical/Christian values are highlighted even among atheistic nations that try to do more for the poorer classes. For example, a country with whatever good or bad motivations, might find ways to reduce overall poverty without the expected damaging effects on its overall economy. One immediately sees elites of the world going into "damage control" by producing the worst or the most devious types of propaganda. Economic sabotage and interference will immediately be put in place against countries that nationalize resources where previously a Western-propped puppet dictator could be counted on to help the West steal (or control) those resources. This propaganda often plays on prejudices against poorer classes by race or ethnicity and darker skin colors. This has been played out in Hong Kong, Bolivia, El Salvador, Venezuela, and dozens of other places.

The world works on greed, favoritism, prejudice, class warfare, oppression of strong over weak, rich over poor. This is nothing new:

(James 2:6) . . .But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who oppress you and drag you before law courts?

Some of the "richest" countries in the world in terms of resources have been purposely turned into the poorest in the world:

(Proverbs 13:23) . . .The plowed field of the poor yields much food, But it may be swept away by injustice.

At any rate, although this was not in a religious portion of the forum, I'm glad you responded, because it is good to begin to distinguish how certain ideas may come from prejudice and religious or ideological propaganda, and certain ideas may come from evidence and facts on the ground.

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20 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

it seems to me a case of how the sins of the fathers come home to roost.

I agree with what you said - all those things did happen.  But when searching, not only for single events, but looking at the entire picture of the 19th century and 20th century mind-frames - through the lens of bible prophecy - (if one looks for steps which could lead to the final outcome of Satanist philosophies ruling the world in the time of the end which would actually advocate the destruction of all religion and totally replace the god of the bible,  and its moral values with worship of state - Daniel 11), then one notices how religiosity was slowly replaced by atheism and its philosophical sisters. 

The development of post-religious humanism (equality, rights) which then further developed into philosophies developed for, and by atheists, which specifically pretended to care for human equality but first advocated the total destruction of previous systems of governance - to be replaced by a centralized government control system which would ensure equality for all. (French revolution killed most of the upper classes and the second wave of killing was actually worst than the first).  Later new philosophies advocated the destruction of all moral values previously valued by Christian societies - something which Satan will use in the time of the end due to its extreme hate for true Christians  (Gen 3:16 - hate between seeds). The new world government will force one to worship the state/ beast as Daniel 11 clearly indicates.

It started before the French revolution when atheist/humanist philosophers started talking about equality, freedom and brotherhood.  This would give and atheist society its values to live by.  It sounds wonderful..... it could replace the government that Jehovah is planning to bring to the earth...(Satan is sly, isn't he?) ….. BUT, unfortunately this so-called equality will be forced on everyone whether they like it or not and a central government will regulate how it is managed. Every person will fall under this control (that is why I have been watching digital programs and facial recognition which could be used by all banks and control systems). 

Certain groups of people will be targeted because they do not adopt the centralized values. We have seen the results of these philosophies which replace the "good and bad" values of Jehovah. Communism (and atheist philosophy) has killed millions in the early 20th century.

Its hate for religion is gaining traction all over the world - and professors and students have all been drinking in the post-modern philosophy and cultural Marxism - which is the old Marxism with a new facelift - to get equality for all those who were previously oppressed by colonizers.

Both west and east have been primed to adopt this atheist views by the schooling system and control by government will bring in a new brand of equality. These riots to replace police, to abolish prisons, to take away the constitution and property rights is not a fad that is going to go away.  These millennials have been learning these things in school and real history has not been taught.  UN agenda is to have one government giving the direction of morality - and like all central governments they will get rid of any groups of people (just like in china) who are a threat or who can INFECT other people with thoughts of individual freedom.

It is a different way of looking at the philosophies which are at present prevalent and leading to Armageddon.  This propaganda is everywhere and the youth are the most susceptible.  We know that Jehovah will have to step in to save us - we know that this philosophy will bring disaster as it did early in the 20th century - unfortunately it is now unfolding on a world-wide scale.  Religion will be destroyed and then they will attack Jehovah's people.  Like in time of Jesus - he was attacked at the right moment (14 Nissan)  so he could die at the right time - on Passover.  Jehovah will preserve his people until the right moment for attack by those who spearhead the atheist agenda for the world.  Most people by this time will have compromised themselves to this worldview of equality of all humans -  in place of the Government of Jehovah.

When they shout " peace and security" we will know that it is going to blow up in their face.  Humans cannot obtain peace and security.... no matter how wonderful the philosophy sounds.  Only the principles of Jehovah and his government can achieve this.

I may sound political when I talk of the commies and their ways of thinking - but actually it is the god-hating philosophies which interest me..... and how it is messing up the minds of the youth and I watch how this propaganda is leading up to Armageddon.

Hope this makes sense to you guys.  Do not be mislead...… china is starting to show its true colors and is all other totalitarian regimes (Iran included and Russia) and it just so happens that they all are allies.  China is Iran's biggest ally and trading partner.  Russia sells them weapons because the Assad government (Syria) and Iran have Shia-religion (islam)  in common.   All these totalitarian countries have atrocious human rights but they do business together in this basis:  I will not talk about your human rights abuses and you do not talk about mine.... we help each other in the UN and we  do not mix in each other's internal affairs... that is the basis of their relationships which seem on the surface to be working ……. until Armageddon?

It is about Satan wanting to compromise as many people as possible to reject Jehovah and worship the state/beast:

The new Marxist philosophies are the perfect vehicle together with totalitarian governments who work together.  I do not take side is this.  I watch for trends to see what gullible people will fall for in time of end.  We are protected by Jehovah because we know that only Jehovah's government can really work to bring true equality - all of us will be equal under god. We will not fall for their philosophies of equality they spin on us ………. we already have a good a good measure of unity and equality - we do not need their philosophies.  Jehovah will unite us even better in the new system.  Self-sacrificing love will unite us all - and it is a love that we all will give WILLINGLY.  It will not be forced on us by some powerful central government. We obey Jehovah because we know his way is best.

 

Russia and china are showing their true colors.  I know for a fact China is busy with atheist, inhuman, and devilish things.  It is not the people - it is their central committee - the CCP who owns most of the factories and the economy.

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1 hour ago, Arauna said:

I know for a fact China is busy with atheist, inhuman, and devilish things.

I should have probably put this in the religious part of the forum. But I don't think any moderator/admin needs to move it. It's also appropriate that religion has come up, because religion has actually been one of the motivations behind much of the propaganda: Buddhist, Muslim, Falun Gong, Fundamentalist, Christian/JW, etc.

It turns out that we are often so steeped in Western propaganda that the very idea seems ludicrous or confusing or dishonest that someone could say that China might not be as bad as it's claimed to be. Without researching the evidence, we might not be aware of just how gullible we've been. From an ethical or religious perspective we might not realize just how judgmental, unsympathetic and unloving we have been. Or how we may not even realize that we have begun to take sides in a political ideology without realizing it. Many people think they are politically neutral, but will quickly put the "inhuman/devilish" label on countries that the West tells them to, but without thinking about the West's motivation for creating those prejudices. There are many more than two, but even if there were only two major sides of today's political spectrums, and all sides were "devilish" to a similar degree, then what is our own motivation for focusing much more on the sins of one of those sides, and less focus on the others? That's not neutrality at all.

Also, if we don't know something for a fact, we might end up just repeating the lies that we accept from sources with their own agenda. This can be innocent, but repeating lies can be damaging and unloving to others. And some of what we repeat will no doubt be true and factual, but we should check our motivation for why we would repeat certain one-sided "facts" and not others. As far as it is possible for us, we should love our enemies and be peaceable with all. We should therefore be careful when we repeat claims as facts that could be only partly true, or even outrageously false. 

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

We have seen the results of these philosophies which replace the "good and bad" values of Jehovah. Communism (and atheist philosophy) has killed millions in the early 20th century.

This might be a good example of taking sides, and not showing neutrality. Is it really just communism (and atheist philosophy) that has killed millions as part of a devious process by Satan to replace hope in God's kingdom? Were those nations of Christendom who also killed millions somehow not part of a devious process by Satan to replace hope in God's kingdom? And does this lack of neutrality affect how easily we will accept and repeat just about any number of atrocities that the West has told us to believe about China (and Russia, too)?

Of course, we could argue that if those numbers are true, then it makes a fair point about human government versus God's kingdom as the replacement for those governments. But what if it turns out that the Western governments who promote those numbers, actually had the same, or even much worse numbers than the actual numbers of atrocities attached to Mao and Stalin? Then would it still be fair to single out China and Russia?

Naturally, this will look like a defense of China. I don't care if it looks that way. I just want to have a better sense of the evidence to make sure than when I repeat someone's claims, that I am not just repeating lies and propaganda.

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22 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Didn’t the Opium Wars serve to illustrate the West’s only interest in China—as an enriching market, and if you had to transform the population into addicts, so be it?

Above, I made a point about trying to make careful use of documents not meant to be leaked to the public. Here it is....

21 hours ago, JW Insider said:

You should also look at documents about planned propaganda from various sides that was not meant to be leaked to the public.

The Opium Wars were one way in the West said "Buy our drugs or we'll kill you!" The BMJ (British Medical Journal) has evolved into a journal that takes on a lot more social issues than just health and medicine, so one needs to be watchful of bias. But it explained very well an embarrassing large cache of internal corporate "Big Tobacco" documents made public through litigation.

Turns out that the US and Britain were still intent on using both legal and illegal means to get China to "buy our drugs" from 1915 on with a special new emphasis on 1976 to 1997. (There are much worse examples than what the tobacco companies were doing in China, where the US effectively backed "American interests" by forcing our drugs and drug advertisements on nations that didn't want them.)

https://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/9/3/292

Excerpts:

The first words uttered by James B Duke (1865-1925), the tobacco tycoon who established the empire now known as British American Tobacco, on hearing of the invention of the cigarette machine, were “Bring me the atlas”. When they brought it he turned over the pages. He stopped at the figure “Pop.: 430,000,000”. “That,” he said, “is where we are going to sell cigarettes.” And “that” was China.1 By 1915 BAT had established a foundation for a “monopoly that seemed unshakeable”.2 At the turn of the century the BAT advertising system “left no region of China untouched”.2

China's annual consumption of cigarettes rose from a negligible number in the 1890s to about 100 billion in the early 1930s, a rise ascribed to the business practices of the cigarette industry.3

...

However, the idea of even a small share in such a huge market has long mesmerised the world's transnational tobacco companies (TTCs) Philip Morris (PM), RJ Reynolds (RJR), Lorillard and British American Tobacco (BAT), and its American subsidiary Brown & Williamson (B&W).

...

There are discussions, shown from these internal documents, of how these TTC's would use pressure to get around taxation, get around limits based on ongoing smuggling, get around advertising restrictions and still be able to target the young, and target women, and target new smokers, while claiming they were only trying to move their brands into a competitive market of existing smokers.

In 1991 Clive Turner, . . . recommended a review of taxation levels across the Asian region to show: “which countries were vulnerable to pressure to raise those levels—and therefore what tactics should be employed to maintain existing levels.”25

The existence of smuggling of TTC brands through Hong Kong also helped TTC negotiate fewer restrictions with China, and helped push those brands even if not officially condoned.

In 1998, Jerry Liu of BAT [British American Tobacco] was sentenced to jail for conspiring to accept HK$23 million in bribes and a corrupt HK$10 million loan from cigarette distributors in exchange for huge quantities of duty-free cigarettes to be smuggled onto the Chinese market. Mr Justice Wally Yeung Chun-kuen commented that such crime targeted youngsters by providing them with cheap black market cigarettes.33

...

Claims that advertising only targeted existing smokers were weakened by a PM statement alluding to targeting young adult “starters”.58 In PM inter-office correspondence, Cathy Leiber mentioned targeting young women with Virginia Slims in 1989 at a Pan Asia brand strategy meeting for Hong Kong and Asia. She argued: “we are naturally more interested to learn how you plan to target the emerging young adult female smokers rather than the older female smokers.”59 In a five year marketing plan for 1981-85 involving China, Tso mentioned targeting segments “which are currently small but which may have long term development potential such as a female brand like Virginia Slims.”60 Plainly, the TTCs were well aware of the huge potential to be gained by enticing the largely non-smoking segment of Chinese women into becoming smokers. Their principal tool in this endeavour was advertising: “Demographically, the population explosion in many underdeveloped countries ensures a large potential market for cigarettes. Culturally, demand may increase with the continuing emancipation of women and the linkage in the minds of many consumers of smoking manufactured cigarettes with modernisation, sophistication, wealth, and success—a connection encouraged by much of the advertising of cigarettes throughout the world.”58    The targeting of young males and young adult starters was mentioned more frequently.

Opium Wars have had a modern-day counterpart.

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2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Then would it still be fair to single out China and Russia?

In the end, the only thing that matters is that certain countries will not permit the spread of the good news, and other countries will, barring only exceptional circumstances, and even then with less vigor. This makes them, by default, “the bad guys”—certainly to us, and if the Good News really is good, to God.

Other than that, would I have anything in particular against communism? I’m not sure that I would. I am content where I am. But by most accounts, persons in China are content where they are too. 

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

we may not even realize that we have begun to take sides in a political ideology without realizing it. Many people think they are politically neutral, but will quickly put the "inhuman/devilish"

This is exactly the point I made long ago regarding Trump that brought JTR to his feet cheering. Brothers will carry on and on about neutrality, admonishing each other should they detect wavering, and then will swallow anything rotten about the US President that his enemies serve up. Even Bro Jackson, when he says we must guard against that furtive thought, “I hope that idiot doesn’t get into power” will cause some to ask, because of the time and place in which he said it, “I wonder what idiot he has in mind?”

https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2020/03/ecclesiastes-1020-do-not-speak-ill-of-the-king-jws-and-politics-in-the-age-of-trump.html

I think it is a function of where we have been in life, and what outrages infuriate us most. There are plenty enough to go around and stoke all schools of thought.

Nobody mows them down like the atheists do when they are setting the stage for their next secular utopia, or changing the props, determined to advance with some Great Leap Forward. I like it that @Arauna departed from Asia briefly to highlight what happened with the atheist-rationalists gained the upper hand in France, a nominal “Christian” country. I read a book (on Ben Franklin) that points out that David Hume, the English sceptic, was at a lost as to how to deal with the certainty adopted by the French atheists.

In contrast, when the West mows them down, it tends to focus on just subjugating them, rather than eradicating them. The West is more likely to be “killing them softly”—perhaps by shoveling them into the maw of some financial market, just like JWI outlines above with drugs. In gathering material for ‘Dear Mr Putin- JWs Write’ I found that America bombs more countries than Russia—quite a few more—so that you almost wonder who it is that is putting his trust in “fortresses,” but since the king of the north does it more openly—parading weapons on May Day, and so forth—their military persona stands. Still, it is big business capitalism that inevitably puts lobbyists in Washington to persuade the power brokers that the world is a super dangerous place abounding with enemies, but—“fortunately for you—we here at Bob’s Bombs make just the products that you need.”

When I did a post ago battling atheists who were railing on about slavery as the greatest possible evil, and how the Bible must be no good because it was willing to work with it rather than flatly condemn it, one contributor joined in to say that in the Western world the way it is now, many would be benefited by being slaves—their conditions would improve by most measures, if only because most “owners” would realize the value of keeping their “property” in good repair. He ran then-current figures of minimum wage, and assumed entirely reasonable situations, to show that the lives of many working poor were in many ways far worse than slaves.

It is all what outrages trigger you most, and that is determined by one’s experiences if life. 

23 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Assertions made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence

I do agree with this, however “evidence” takes many forms. She speaks of people that “she knows.” Is that lesser evidence than reports that have been culled by a think tank? Go find a think tank of the opposite persuasion—there are plenty of them in any field. The universal pattern in the US is to run the “evidence” of the other person into the ditch, though I will concede that her case is stronger if she makes it in print and with backing. Still, “evidence” is compounded or discarded by whoever’s interests prevail at the moment, often it is financial muscle that propels some evidence and suppresses other evidence. 

 

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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

In the end, the only thing that matters is that certain countries will not permit the spread of the good news, and other countries will, barring only exceptional circumstances, and even then with less vigor. This makes them, by default, “the bad guys”

This is certainly a huge problem to us. But if a country doesn't cooperate with us, and won't allow what they see as an "American" religion in their country, we still can't say this gives us the right to make false claims. I know that when you said: "In the end, the only thing that matters . . ." you were not saying the end justifies the means.

[There was going to be a point here that I removed because I only had the first half here and the second half was more than half.]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

This is exactly the point I made long ago regarding Trump that brought JTR to his feet cheering.

 Yes! And I was able to make some good use locally, pointing to your "don't speak ill of the king" blog for the same reasons.

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

In contrast, when the West mows them down, it tends to focus on just subjugating them, rather than eradicating them.

I don't think the evidence makes that "contrast" as clear as you must think. But no one has even barely started on any actual evidence yet. Also, you are speaking from the perspective of how well the West has been able to control propaganda at home. Although I agree that the US has become very sophisticated at subjugating nations economically, you can't tell North Korea, Cambodia, Iraq, for example, that the bombings were not there to subjugate through eradication. It didn't always work (Vietnam), but look what was attempted:  https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/asia-pacific/unknown-to-most-americans-the-us-totally-destroyed-north-korea-once-before-1.3227633

Some excerpts:

Many of these atrocities refer to what Blaine Harden, author and former Washington Post reporter, recently called a “long, leisurely and merciless” US bombing campaign: well over half a million tons of bombs dropped, napalm and chemical weapons deployed, cities levelled.

...“Although the ferocity of the bombing was recognised as racist and unjustified elsewhere in the world,” says Harden, for many Americans it was just another conflict in a distant and poorly understood country, he concludes. Not for nothing is it called the forgotten war.

...The result was perhaps three million dead and, the museum recalls, the first US armistice in history signed without a victory. In three years of fighting a single major city changed hands: Kaesong, which is now the last vestige of a once hopeful détente with the South.

Air Force general Curtis LeMay, head of the strategic air command during the Korean War, estimated that the American campaign killed 20 per cent of the population. “We went over there and fought the war and eventually burned down every town in North Korea,” he said.

‘Radioactive cobalt’

General Douglas MacArthur’s plan to win was a list of targets sent to the Pentagon, requesting 34 atomic bombs to create “a belt of radioactive cobalt across the neck of Manchuria so that there could be no land invasion of Korea from the north for at least 60 years”.

...Incursions by American spy ships and planes, and huge annual drills by the Americans and South Koreans that still practise invading the North and decapitating its leadership, have worsened the deep official paranoia.

Every town in North Korea was burned down. It was actually a war against the civilians, which means that the US was directly engaged in terrorism. Some bombers admitted that every building over five stories high (residential or otherwise) was a target. If Russia threatened a border state (and they have) in the way the US continues continues to threaten North Korea from all sides, the West would be furious at them.

I'm sure you already know about the support the US gave for genocidal atrocities in Cambodia, under Nixon/Kissinger and Pol Pot. And more recently the biological warfare against food, electric and water supplies in Iraq, that resulted in the deaths of perhaps another million, mostly under Clinton. The US speaks openly of illegal coups and regime changes in other countries. And sometimes you only find out after secret documents are leaked or wait until enough years have passed to become public domain. Threatening war, regime change, or cutting off food supplies (sanctions) to a country that won't let us control their oil has been the biggest reason for US wars in the last half century.

 

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10 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

But my point is that true Christianity is most successful where false Christianity was once most successful at murdering people.

Well, you make a good point here.

10 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Every town in North Korea was burned down. It was actually a war against the civilians, which means that the US was directly engaged in terrorism. Some bombers admitted that every building over five stories high (residential or otherwise) was a target.

and here.

11 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

General Douglas MacArthur’s plan to win was a list of targets sent to the Pentagon, requesting 34 atomic bombs to create “a belt of radioactive cobalt across the neck of Manchuria so that there could be no land invasion of Korea from the north for at least 60 years”.

Truman wouldn’t let him, and was pilloried for standing up to the Great Man, firing him. I recall being amazed when I first learned of this. (I had heard it was 50–compromise and say ‘up to 50’)

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1 minute ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Well, you make a good point here.

Yikes! I didn't delete it in time. I removed that because to explain the full point would have taken another page or two. I'll assume you got what I was driving at without needing the full explanation. Hmm. Maybe there's a lesson there in how lengthy my writing should be.

Nah!

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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

that certain countries will not permit the spread of the good news

yes and it just so happens that Russia, china, Iran and some ex-soviet countries are amongst them.  

 

3 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

almost always in direct correlation to the proportion of those same country's populations killed by "Christians" armies in that particular co

In Africa and middle east, Christian populations have almost disappeared..... there were large populations before. 

4 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

you are speaking from the perspective of how well the West has been able to control propaganda at home.

This means that they have been wide awake - but unfortunately they have been sleeping for the last 20 years.  And if you think you can trust any of the sources in America - think again. 

7 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

North Korea was burned down. It was actually a war against the civilians

We are not talking about war crimes and injustice on the battle field - you seem to confuse the two aspects.   Most countries commit war terrible war crimes.  I am talking about totalitarianism and how they have killed their own people - not foreigners.  And the possibility for this to come to the West.

 

12 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

nd more recently the biological warfare against food, electric and water supplies in Iraq, that resulted in the deaths of perhaps another million, mostly under Clinton. The US speaks openly of illegal coups and regime changes in other countries. And sometimes you only find out after secret documents are leaked or wait until enough years have passed to become public domain. Threatening war, regime change, or cutting off food supplies (sanctions) to a country

I know all about these American atrocities - governments usually justify these type of atrocities against other countries.....  and it is bad….- but can you imagine what will happen if USA does this to their own people?  The possibility is growing for a totalitarian system to arise.   The Chinese are already doing it, Russia and Iran is doing it, and several north African countries and ex-soviet countries are illtreating their people or justifying death of their own citizens. … .

That is what I am talking about...… this kind of system which could be awaiting the entire world.

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2 minutes ago, Arauna said:

In Africa and middle east, Christian populations have almost disappeared..... there were large populations before. 

True. That's why I made the point about the exceptions in countries with a more recent rise in Islam. (You might still have that part, but that particular point was deleted.)

4 minutes ago, Arauna said:

And if you think you can trust any of the sources in America - think again. 

True again. No specific sources should be trusted. We need to learn what we can and look where evidence leads.

6 minutes ago, Arauna said:

We are not talking about war crimes and injustice on the battle field - you seem to confuse the two aspects

They are not confused at all. It was just a response to TTH about the contrast in how the West "kills them softly" when they mow them down.

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

In contrast, when the West mows them down, it tends to focus on just subjugating them, rather than eradicating them. The West is more likely to be “killing them softly”

I just wanted to point out that the West is having more trouble maintaining that narrative.

13 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Most countries commit war terrible war crimes.  I am talking about totalitarianism and how they have killed their own people - not foreigners.

I assume you are ready to give evidence about how many people were murdered by Mao? I believe you are working with numbers around 40,000,000?

On 7/28/2020 at 10:40 AM, Arauna said:

Stalin has once again become popular in Russia and his millions of murders of his own citizens has been whitewashed  (40 million down to 20 million) and so has Mao se Tung been sanctified with his murders down to 40 million of his own citizens.

Don't take this link as "evidence" for or against, but the writer reports there that this is within the commonly claimed range of numbers:

https://medium.com/refuse-to-cooperate/mao-zedong-and-the-myth-of-mass-murder-d9679609fa54

Official Chinese sources, released after Mao’s death, suggest that 16.5 million people died in the Great Leap Forward. These figures were released during an ideological campaign by the government of Deng Xiaoping against the legacy of the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution. However, there seems to be no way of independently, authenticating these figures due to the great mystery about how they were gathered and preserved for twenty years before being released to the general public. American researchers managed to increase this figure to around 30 million by combining the Chinese evidence with extrapolations of their own from China’s censuses in 1953 and 1964. Recently, Jung Chang and Jon Halliday in their book Mao: the Unknown Story reported 70 million killed by Mao, including 38 million in the Great Leap Forward.

Some study of the Deng government is very relevant here. It reminds me of how Kruschev made up numbers to discredit Stalin before him. It also reminds me of Twitter tweets like "The number one cause of death in the United States is D.J. Trump." I can imagine claims by the next president, if there is one 😉, that Trump killed 150,000 of his own people, and North Korea will teach their schoolchildren that Trump murdered 15,000,000.

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2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

have anything in particular against communism? I’m not sure that I wo

I do not have anything against communism (I know it is flawed like capitalism) ...... however, I realize its atheism and the philosophy behind it is treacherous. It is a perfect vehicle for Satan to use in time of the end because of the totalitarian nature of it.  Satan can influence the wicked atheist world leaders  to bring in a one world central government modelled on neo-communism (which they are planning at present) and the greatest tribulation /starvation the world has ever seen.  Most people are welcoming to this system these days and do not realize the implications of it.  And I am NOT taking sides - just warning of the signs I see developing..... regarding possible fulfillment of the scriptures we have.

I do not take sides in US politics - I am thankfully without a country.   BUT I watch philosophies and trends..... and this philosophy is humbugging everyone!

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

many would be benefited by being slaves—their conditions would improve b

The way things are going, property rights will be taken away (agenda 2030 and the green deal) … so all will be slaves - totally equal.   What most people do not realize is that super capitalism and communism look the same - a few people on top and the rest are plebs. This is why one cannot take sides..... both systems lead to severe oppression when it reaches this stage.....   This is why the super rich in the world - the top echelons are all working together to beget a NWO that will equalize everyone except those already on the top.

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

West is more likely to be “killing them softly”—p

Hunger will kill a lot of people.... without proper medical and other services.... 

 

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Go find a think tank of the opposite persuasion—there are plenty of them in any field. The universal pattern in the US is to run the “evidence” of the other person into the ditch, t

True-  I studied islam - I know islam inside out - its sharia laws its aspirations.  I still follow the money trails and the front organizations which now are so powerful in USA and forming policies.  America has been subverted, not just by Chinese but by islam….. The situation is building up everywhere for Armageddon.... of this I am sure.   America has been subverted because think-tanks are bought and paid for by those who donate the money.  Follow the money trail and you will find the truth.

Same with this virus - they did false studies that show hydroxychloroquine to be dangerous ( these studies were withdrawn but withdrawals did not get publicly) - so no-one knows the truth. People have been using it every day for 68 years for illnesses such as arthritis and malaria prevention.   Doctors who spoke the truth about it are taken off FB and YouTube etc.  Why?  Pharmaceutical industrial complex behind the maligning and the false studies.  Can one really trust these studies and the fact checkers?  I do not.  I happen to have used hydroxychloroquine. It was prescribed for my arthritis. 

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On 7/28/2020 at 12:17 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

Annashould weigh in on this, for I recall her saying how she has lived under communist rule and is not a fan.

No, I am definitely not a fan. But, as with everything, there are pluses and minuses. Today, there are still those who mourn those days, missing the camaraderie, the "we have nothing but neither does our neighbor". Those who kissed the Bolshevik's butts fared better than those who didn't. Personally, I can't understand why anyone would like anything about that period, except there was maybe less stress, because no one actually worked, but those who wanted to work, or contribute something useful to society, usually had to emigrate, usually illegally, leaving behind family members. As a child, I could never understand why someone was not allowed to leave the country. I don't know much about China, so I cannot compare their communism to the communism I experienced, I am sure there are similarities but also differences. But any totalitarian regime, run by imperfect people, is wrong. 

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15 hours ago, JW Insider said:

we are often so steeped in Western propaganda

Americans are, for sure, but you forget I grew up in Africa and basically am a refugee myself.  Moving from country to country. I saw what the communalist way of thinking did in Africa.  I do not have the American mindset and thankfully did not go to an American school.  While I worked in USA, I saw the mindset of people I worked with and realized their vulnerabilities. 

One of them is that America is the greatest - with the result that they allowed capitalism to blindfold them.  To make a dollar they allowed subversive countries into US to buy large companies, take over and originate so-called "human rights organizations"  (the clay of Daniel) and did not see all the undermining philosophies coming in (through Frankfort school of thought) to break down family and true Christian morality.  The result of this new phenomenon in the streets of US today with the millennials all "emotion" and no thinking ability.

 

13 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

departed from Asia briefly

Yes - these philosophies started in the west and exported to the east as You clearly indicated.

 

15 hours ago, JW Insider said:

From an ethical or religious perspective we might not realize just how judgmental, unsympathetic and unloving we have been

Yes - the new sanctions are unloving because the CCP is hard on their population.  The Chinese people are sitting ducks.  Once one is under a communist system you cannot get out from under it.  You are powerless. The power and money lies in the hands of the few.  Most of the large corporations are owned by the state or the state has a large share of its profits. Some are even owned by the military - which do not swear allegiance to the Chinese people - but to the CCP. 

China has taken over the south china sea.  Vietnam cannot drill in its own waters.... china threatens... and so they have to pay compensation to the middle eastern company that was going to do the drilling.  Philippines took china to international court because of its abuses.  They have taken over all their fishing waters.  China ignored the verdict in Philippines' favor. 

The Pilipino president says he cannot enforce the verdict because he will have to go to war and he cannot afford war against china.  China is on the Indian border, there is talk that the pressure in Nepal is high - it may be the next Tibet.  Tibet was full of monestaries when china took over...….. the entire spiritual way of life of the people, that went on for centuries, came to an abrupt end. 

I am highlighting this to show that once one has a system like this one cannot get out from under it - it is destructive and all consuming...….. just as Satan wants it.  If you stand against the state and keep your religion - you are expendable….

So far, in the west a person had freedom of religion - but this will be taken away in a flash under a new world system where we are social engineered to be 'equal' in all things (including your religion) - which is now in the making.

I see signs that it is coming to the west.  Satan will use it to compromise the integrity of all - we will have to stand the test of our faith.  Who will be able to stand?   

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On 7/30/2020 at 4:06 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

“They pretend to pay us and we pretend to work” Is the expression I have heard of the Soviet Union.

In communist YU under Tito (the "best" communism of all types that was mentioned here :)), there was saying: You can not pay me so little, how little work I can do

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6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

You can not pay me so little, how little work I can do

My wife’s grandfather was born in Zagreb. My son went to Serbia to “find his roots.” He fell in love with the people, and eventually moved there. “You have to be careful in accepting their hospitality,” he says, “becasue they will give you what they don’t have.” He also confirms what you have said about Tito.

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On 7/30/2020 at 1:39 AM, Arauna said:

So far, in the west a person had freedom of religion - but this will be taken away in a flash under a new world system

I have said this before, but I find it extremely difficult to imagine that this could happen in the USA where freedom of religion is written into the constitution. And I find it difficult to see that the USA would change its precious constitution for the sake of some kind of new world system which demands no religion. I also cannot see that Islamic nations such as Saudi Arabia would allow anyone to forbid them to worship at their mosques or the pilgrimage to Mecca etc. I cannot imagine the Pope being taken down. What I can see though is that in general, and especially in Europe, people not being too upset about religion, since so many of them are atheists. 

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On 7/28/2020 at 12:17 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

, I suspect that JWI is a closet-pinko

Actually, after communism fell in Eastern Europe, and Jehovah's Witnesses were free to preach and distribute literature, many householders would remark that the paradise illustrations reminded them of communist drawings. More recently, my mum gave the book "God's Kingdom Rules" to one of her studies (a lady in her 70's) and she did not like it at all. She said it was like reading a communist book. This is why in my earlier post I was careful to say that a totalitarian regime ran by imperfect beings is wrong. Most of us know that many of the communist ideologies are actually good, but of course imperfect man is not able to make them work, because man cannot rule over other men.

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2 hours ago, Anna said:

Actually, after communism fell in Eastern Europe, and Jehovah's Witnesses were free to preach and distribute literature, many householders would remark that the paradise illustrations reminded them of communist drawings. More recently, my mum gave the book "God's Kingdom Rules" to one of her studies (a lady in her 70's) and she did not like it at all. She said it was like reading a communist book. This is why in my earlier post I was careful to say that a totalitarian regime ran by imperfect beings is wrong. Most of us know that many of the communist ideologies are actually good, but of course imperfect man is not able to make them work, because man cannot rule over other men.

In ex-YU some of people who listened JW preaching used to say how Jesus was first communist.  

Communism (from Latin communis, 'common, universal')[1][2] is a philosophical, social, political, economic ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of a communist society, namely a socioeconomic order structured upon the ideas of common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money[3][4] and the state.[5][6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

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I would love to see all these topics discussed, especially as there is a range of experience here, including people who have lived under several types of government themselves, people who have taken an deep interest in history, people who travel a lot, and who have worked or studied with people of many backgrounds.

But before those additional points of interest, what about some of the original questions on China? I have plenty more details and evidence about the Uyghurs, but so far this was mostly just one set of claims against another set of claims.

China has done plenty of bad, but when it comes to looking for evidence of any specific claim of badness, a typical Western response is, in effect:

What more evidence do we need? They are communist. Communist regimes are evil. Look at Mao and how he MURDERED 40,000,000 of his own people!

Since this is so often used as the foundation for why other claims must be true, I recommend that we pivot to Mao, and look at just what the evidence is that he murdered 40,000,000 (or 20,000,000) or 70,000,000 total (which is counted as 38,000,000 in the "Great Leap Forward" plus another 32,000,000.)

Does anyone here know where these numbers come from? And why it's called "murder"?

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23 hours ago, Anna said:

I find it extremely difficult to imagine that this could happen in the USA where freedom of religion is written into the constitution.

These protesters want to throw away the constitution and everything it used to stand for in the past.  All past history must be eradicated and a new start must be given through revolution and the building of a new socially equalizing society and government.  Do not underestimate the power of these atheist, post modernist, cultural Marxists...… the constitution can easily be abandoned. There is much talk of it already....They want police to be abandoned at local level so that they can force a centralized police oversight in federal government..  This is similar to communism.

Police was always locally appointed so the central government cannot control it.  Trump is setting a dangerous precedent...but he is being forced into it by the riots which governors  are refusing to address.  They want anarchy.... 

For example, gun rights are protected and freedom of speech are protected by constitution...and property rights...… but in reality, freedom of speech is already curtailed, next, all will have to give in their guns.... and property rights are already being eroded at local level by "sustainable development NGOs" which were brought in by the Council on Foreign  Relations after adoption of UN Agenda 21.  The constitution is easy to change or abandon.  The constitution is only regarded as untouchable mostly by conservatives.

America will not be what it was before...…its constitution will not protect the individual and his rights any longer - USA will be come collectivist. How quick this will happen in future depends on the outcome of the next election. Does not matter who wins the next election - the acrimony will be worse than before the election, with disputes about vote counting, because both sides are being set up by propaganda that their side will win and both sides believe the other side is ready to steal the election. 

USA will still stand when Armageddon comes but not like before.  An eighth king will take its place - the disgusting thing. 

21 hours ago, Anna said:

communist ideologies are actually good, but of course imperfect man is not able to make them work, because man cannot rule over other men.

Equality sounds wonderful - I agree it is a Christian principle. But when equality is 'forced' on all humans and administered by a central government consisting of people only loyal to a central party and these party officials are not as equal as all the rest - it always becomes oppressive and dangerous.  The nature of atheism and totalitarian central government lends itself to disrespect life. (injustice is in all human systems but some kinds of governments liquidate their own population easier than others. When humans are asked to spy on their neighbors because their loyalty to the party is suspicious...… 

Equality, as taught by Jehovah, comes from the heart - a true personal belief that we should not view ourselves as better than others and should treat others with justice because Jehovah is watching.  A true belief that we all must be self-controlling, self-sacrificing...…and just, kind, good, merciful etc. This is a true equality when all humans apply these principles from conviction.  When all willingly have a self-sacrificing personality which comes from WILLING obedience to a set of standards of justice (good and bad) which comes from Jehovah.  Human laws (human good and bad), enforced by humans over other humans, does not work because humans always protect their own interests and enforce laws unjustly.

Satan has tried to set up counterfeit utopias, both by means of religion and philosophy.  Communism promises an utopian government where all are equal.  Islam promises an utopian government which is religious - where the rulers are religious and all must be loyal to the religious leaders..... similar to Zionism.....

Zionism, the communist manifesto and islam have this in common ……  they believe in a human government that should rule the entire  world and bring in the future utopia..... but all under human rule - whether religious or secular.  In all these forms of government, the person has to divide loyalty to Jehovah and give a form of state worship. As in capitalism and democracy, where money or the self is worshipped, very little worship goes to Jehovah.

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

about the Uyghurs

As you know I am NOT a fan of Islam... and I can understand why Russia had wars against the Chechnians and subdued them because they were a threat to the stability of the nation with terrorist attacks. Two girls in my congregation here in Georgia both have referred to the school that was taken over by the terrorists.... it was in the territory they lived in. Uighurs are not much different...… but my sense of right and wrong was outraged when I heard that they take children away from parents and re-train them in boarding schools where state propaganda is spoon-fed day and night.  I realized that they can do this to Witnesses.  

This is the nature of a totalitarian regimes whether religious or secular, atheist.  Most Chinese now have their phones checked when they come back from abroad - to see if any religious etc. searches were done on the phone.  They do not like the ideas of freedom or rights to contaminate their citizens. This is similar to extreme Muslim countries where they also check citizen's phones when they come back from abroad.  I met many of them here in Georgia because I worked a minimum of 2 hours most days just in tourism - street work. I met wonderful and sweet Chinese people.....but they are forced to comply at peril of their life or a system that can take all their social credit away in one swoop.  This new social credit system is terrible and may soon come to the west... as Google and other global tech companies cooperated with the Chinese Central party to institute this system.  Facial recognition will be the method of social credit system in future..... in the west as well - by 2025. 

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3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Does anyone here know where these numbers come from? And why it's called "murder"?

I have no idea, but I am sure you do 😄so I look forward to your next post.

 

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20 minutes ago, Anna said:

so I look forward to your next post.

Thanks. I won't be able to weigh in on this until Monday or so. But this should give ample opportunity for anyone who's interested to get the evidence started. Didn't want this to be TOO easy. It's not a simple topic, after all.

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On 8/1/2020 at 7:47 AM, JW Insider said:

What more evidence do we need? They are communist. Communist regimes are evil. Look at Mao and how he MURDERED 40,000,000 of his own people!

On 8/1/2020 at 7:47 AM, JW Insider said:

Does anyone here know where these numbers come from? And why it's called "murder"?

So, I have been doing some reading, (Wikipedia so far) and evidently the above statement is far too sweeping to accurately describe quite a complex and multi faceted situation that brought about the death of many, the numbers  of which vary because they cannot be accurately verified. 
I am assuming the reference to "murder" of 40 million is referring to the "Great Leap Forward" and the "great famine" that resulted from it. If I were to sum it up briefly, I would say Mao Zedong was an idiot who shouldn't have tried to implemented something he didn't fully understand. And definitely not on such a large scale. 

I remember in communist Europe private farms being "colectivized" with the animals being taken away from the small holdings and put in huge  pig farms or cattle ranches. All that the farmers had left was chickens and some geese. They didn't make enough money to make repairs to the buildings, and as a consequence the villages became dilapidated, so much so that when my grand parents returned to their homeland after 40 years, and drove through these once pretty villages, they wept. My "bourgeois" grandfather, before he and my grandmother defected, was put in jail (just for a few days) because he owned his own company. Over the years the capital city, once a crowning jewel, became gray and depressing. 

In China, the farmers were forced into collective farming but as opposed to the later European model, where individual farmers didn't make a nickle, the Chinese farmers suffered terribly, millions of them starving to death in what was called "the great famine". 

One of Mao's absurd campaigns was the plan to eradicate sparrows. Wikipedia:

"The Four Pests Campaign (Chinese: 除四害; pinyin: Chú Sì Hài), was one of the first actions taken in the Great Leap Forward in China from 1958 to 1962. The four pests to be eliminated were rats, flies, mosquitoes, and sparrows........which resulted in severe ecological imbalance, being one of the causes of the Great Chinese Famine. In 1960, Mao Zedong ended the campaign against sparrows and redirected the fourth focus to bed bugs" (!)

I don't know about anyone else, but reading this confirms in my mind that Mao was a raving lunatic.

Then there are supposed reports of torture and killing of non compliant farmers. But I will have to pick that one up in my next post. 

 

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      A maximum of 18 guests will sleep in stone-walled rooms with high, star-vaulted ceilings and views over Ugento’s rooftops,  and they will feast on Puglian favourites cooked by Milanese chef Odette Fada, whose refined cuisine at the renowned Rex Il Ristorante in Los Angeles and San Domenico NY  made her name as one of America’s finest Italian chefs. The nearest beaches are two miles away and Baroque towns such as  Lecce are a short drive from the castle. 
      The Urban Forest: Aman Shanghai
      Aman’s latest property in China (its fourth) must be one of its most anticipated to date. The Shanghai retreat (rates not yet available) is a picture of leafy tranquility – and full of surprises. If  a visitor were to drop into the 100-acre property, planted with thousand-year-old camphor trees and interspersed with historic Ming- and Qing-dynasty houses, they’d never believe that they were within easy reach of buzzy downtown Shanghai. Neither the forest nor village are native to this area; both were moved here over the past 10 years from Jiangxi, some 500 miles southwest, by Ma Dadong, a pioneering businessman, when the building of a reservoir threatened their survival.

      Aman Shanghai
      Now that the painstaking replanting (which took three years) and the building of the hotel are complete, the 37 villas in the new sanctuary are being decorated with original beams, floors, sculptures and carvings from the uplifted village homes. Kerry Hill, the project’s architect, has taken care to reflect traditional Chinese culture while blending in contemporary comforts and natural tones of earth, moss and creamy whites. Guests can take day trips to Shanghai, walk in the forest, sample Eastern cuisine, or relax in the spa, beside the two pools or in the Nan Shu Fang contemplation garden. 
      The South American Sleeper: The Belmond Andean Explorer, Peru
      For the first time in May 2017, travellers will be able not only to traverse the Andes in one of the most luxurious trains on earth, but to sleep overnight on one. The Belmond Andean Explorer has been built to carry up to 68 passengers in en-suite cabins decorated by the South African designer Inge Moore in contemporary light woods and comforting alpaca-wool colours.
      Each of the train’s cars is fitted with expansive windows to frame views of the Andean plains, mountains and grand architecture, including the Unesco World Heritage Site of Arequipa. Although another two trains already operate in this area – Belmond’s Hiram Bingham, which offers day trips to Machu Picchu, and the more traditional Inca Princess  – this is the first modern luxury train to offer trips from Cusco to Lake Titicaca and Arequipa, on one- and two-night journeys. Chefs from the Hotel Monasterio in Cusco will serve modern Peruvian cuisine in two dining cars; guests can also enjoy spacious lounge and observation cars, and an open deck.  Doubles from £738 , all-inclusive, for one night. 
      The Gorilla Camp: Bisate Lodge, Rwanda
      One of the key trends in Africa in 2017 is the growth of camps that offer both sustainable luxury and adventure. Hence Wilderness Safaris’ decision to open Bisate Lodge in June as a luxury base for tracking the 10 habituated gorilla groups  in Rwanda’s Volcanoes National Park (doubles from £1,762 full board, excluding gorilla permits).
      The lodge, raised high above the forest floor in the amphitheatre of an eroded volcanic cone, has been designed by architect Nick Plewman to echo the spherical, thatched structures that dot the hills, as well as the layout of traditional Rwandan palaces. The interiors by Caline Williams-Wynn have been inspired by the rich detail of Rwandan textiles, many of which are made using a technique called imigongo, an ancient art form incorporating geometric shapes.
      When the first guests arrive, they will be able not only to track gorillas, but to  hike to Dian Fossey’s grave and her former research station at Karisoke, to trek to the top of a nearby volcano, and then to relax in the extensively reforested gardens.
      The Jungle Retreat: Nekupe Sporting Resort and Retreat, Nicaragua
      Nicaragua’s first luxe mountain resort sits in the lush landscape of Nandaime, just 40 minutes’ drive from the pretty colonial city of Granada. Nekupe – or heaven, in the indigenous Chorotega  language – was designed with the help of a feng shui architect to have the highest energy flow and least environmental impact possible, and the four freestanding villas and four expansive suites, with king-sized beds, made-for-sharing bathtubs and alfresco showers, are decorated in earth tones and warm woods that echo the serene setting (doubles from £720, full board). Floor-to-ceiling windows frame views over Mombacho  volcano’s perfect cone, and wraparound terraces  are perfect for sipping daiquiris, before farm-to-table feasts of nuevo-Nicaraguan cuisine.

      Nekupe will provide access to Nicaragua's underexplored nature reserves
      The surrounding nature reserve,  which echoes with the sounds of primates and toucans, can be explored on ATVs, as well as on paths created for hikers, bikers and horseback riders, or on zip wires, which soar above the forest canopy. For those not expending energy on target-shooting, tennis and yoga, there is an infinity pool and a spa.
      The Cook Ski Spot: Lech, Austria
      Size matters to ski resorts, so the hotly anticipated coronation of Ski Arlberg as Austria’s largest contiguous ski area is big news indeed. Encompassing eight villages, including big hitters St Anton, Lechand Zürs, Ski Arlberg is already one of the best-known ski areas in the Alps. But now its four new lifts are open, linking the entire area to deliver 109 miles  of pistes (three more than Val d’Isère), Ski Arlberg will join the ranks of the world’s über resorts.

      New developments have given Lech a leg up
      The four connected lifts, known as the Flexenbahn, will place Lech at the epicentre of the ski area (stealing some thunder from St Anton). While expanding its lifts, Lech has also been consolidating its position as Austria’s leading town for luxury ski chalets. In December – hot on the heels of properties like the Aurelio Clubhouse, Chalet N, Chalet 1597 and Überhaus, which have raised the luxury bar in recent years – Severin’s Alpine Retreat will open its doors. The nine-suite hotel will be fitted with only the best: Minotti furnishings, a spa with an indoor infinity pool and hypoxic chamber for altitude training, and a ski room with bespoke Indigo kit.
      Guests can take over the chalet, for free rein over the suites, restaurant, capacious spa and fire-lit lounges, or plump for The Residence: a sleek four-bedroom private apartment spanning two floors  with a professional kitchen, cinema, bar and outdoor hot tub. The Oxford Ski Company offers a week for two people at Severin’s Alpine Retreat from £6,440, including transfers and flights.
      The Rugged Destination: Pamir Mountains, Tajikistan
      Tajikistan was the second-fastest growing tourist destination in the world in 2015, according to the World Travel and Tourism Council (WTTC). Which is why in 2017 Edge Expeditions will be running a two-week Luxury Tajikistan tour of the country’s spectacular Pamir Mountains: one the most diverse, wild, exhilarating and least-explored corners of the planet.
      With a team of expert guides, a maximum of eight guests will traverse the raw wilderness by either four-wheel-drive vehicles, with a driver, or motorbikes. Journeying along the legendary Pamir Highway, travellers will spend days exploring azure mountain lakes, hidden valleys, ancient ruins and high mountain passes that very few outsiders ever get to see.
      The trip starts off at a five-star hotel in the capital, Dushanbe, while on the road the ground crew will prepare yurt camps with hot showers, comfortable beds, Egyptian cotton sheets and gourmet meals prepared by the expedition’s private chef. Along the way, both British and Tajik guides will interpret the layered history of the region, while astronomers with telescopes will also be on hand to explore some of the least light-polluted night skies in the world. 
      Edge Expeditions is offering a 14-day Luxury Tajikistan journey by four-wheel-drive or motorcycle, from £9,495 full board, starting and ending at Dushanbe, including transfers, motorcycle rental or vehicle (with driver), back-up vehicles, guides and medic, but excluding international flights.
      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/luxury/travel/2017-years-best-luxury-outdoor-adventure-holidays-namibia-nicaragua/
    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
      Chinese Communist Party prepares offensive against Christianity
       

    • By The Librarian
      China's governing Communist Party is set to launch a nationwide crackdown on the Christian Church.
      By Matthew Carney - ABC
      The Communist Party has just enacted much tougher laws that criminalise Christians if they do not pledge loyalty to the state.
      Chinese President Xi Jinping has warned that all religions now have to become "Chinese" and the new laws will attempt to bring churchgoers and their leaders under party control.
      The new laws will put the state firmly in charge, giving the Communist Party the ability to hire and fire church leaders and change religious doctrine to make it more Chinese...
      That means churchgoers will have to pledge loyalty to the Communist Party first.
      There is good reason to be afraid. Chinese Authorities have already started the crackdown in the Christian heartland in the southern province of Zhejiang.
      It's been extensive and brutal. In the past two years they have torn down nearly 2000 crosses and in some cases demolished churches.
      Church leaders and their followers have been arrested and imprisoned.
      There's also good reason to why the Communist Party is threatened by the Church.
      Some say there are 100 million Christians in China — that's more than Communist Party members.
      The Chinese Government admits there are about 25 million Christians registered at state-run churches where pastors are appointed by the state and theology approved by the governments Religious Affairs Bureau.
      ABC 
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      New York Times 
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