The WEST's war of words against CHINA. Starting with the Uyghurs.

[Arauna]

10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

There is absolutely no evidence of his corruption,

In Africa it is pretty easy to cover things up.  I understand very well how they function and the mindset - having come from there....   WHO head is not the only high official who withheld food from the people that did not vote for him. Zimbabwe has a similar history.  He is also NOT a doctor. He is just an official because China lobbied for him.

Time will tell.  I see every day how China is belligerent and see more and more people who are fleeing and telling harrowing stories.  Are you not watching the current news?  All the lawmakers in Hong Kong who have voted for democratic laws in the past were taking into custody.  I am sure they will receive  re-education for their western ideas in one of China's prisons. 

10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

where you would read such things.

I think you should think again where you get your news from.  You obviously are not looking for the people who have fled from China or Africa.   I do that.  I listen to the real life stories and what happened to them.  Did you know that ISIS is in Mozambique and killing many people?  CNN does not talk about this...... MBC does not have any of it.....Fox does not speak of it..... 

10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

"draconian" is a reflexive cliche in Western

Draconian to me is when your life is in danger and you are taken into custody for saying something small against a leader who is viewed as a god and worshiped as a god.  I do not have the standards for the word "draconian' which the  the rest of the people have that get hyped up by propaganda.  I use it in the sense that the oppression is satanic.

10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Falon Gong) had claimed "organ harvesting"

I saw an entire documentary where a Chinese doctor who defected to USA called the different hospitals and said he had a patient who needed an organ.   He spoke in Chinese.  Because he came from the field, he knew exactly how to phrase the questions and get good information.  He could get an organ immediately for his patient and they assured him that they will have a perfect match.  He also called the "transplant" hospitals  of which they have several - these are dedicated only to transplants every day of the week full-time.   He knew exactly how many operating rooms in each hospital and how long it takes for the surgeries. ....  Of course - some people he spoke to were suspicious but all in all the documentary was perfect because it gave one a good idea of how advanced things are there.  

I additionally watch a lot of documentaries from other countries.... 

10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

when China handled this particular outbreak faster and more efficiently t

Ha-ha. China - sat on it a long time and took hospital doctors into custody who tried to warn others. CCP  allowed the Chinese workers in Italy to come home to China for the New Year and then return back to north- Italy.  Ever wondered why so many Italians were infected?  It was all the Chinese laborers who work on the Chinese Beltroad initiative in Italy.  No - you will not convince me......I have read too much about the predatory loans and how they have taken over ports and airports and even killed demonstrators in Africa.  I watch how many incidents there are in the South China sea when China goes into territories of other countries - ramming their fishing boats etc.  I do not get my news from CNN, MBC or Fox. 

[JW Insider]

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

I understand very well how they function and the mindset - having come from there....

Africa is a big continent. Coming from South Africa is not the same as coming from Ethiopia. All black leaders are not alike, just as all white or other leaders are not alike.

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

WHO head is not the only high official who withheld food from the people that did not vote for him. . . .   He is also NOT a doctor. He is just an official because China lobbied for him.

I think you are confusing the fact that the US withheld famine aid from Ethiopia because it had a Marxist government. Or perhaps that Trump claimed he would withhold aid from fire-razed California because they didn't vote for him. There is NO evidence that Tedros withheld aid from anyone.

Also, think about the reason you thought it was important to add that he is NOT a doctor. His Bachelor's degree is in biology, and his Master's degree is in immunology, and his doctorate (PhD) is also for medical-related research. And yet, no one here had claimed he was a doctor. Also, he was an Ethiopian official long before China lobbied for him. (He began working in the ministry of health in 1986 and was appointed deputy minister for health in 2003.) Also he was endorsed for the WHO position by almost all African countries, and apparently would have still won by a very wide majority even if China had not supported him.

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

I see every day how China is belligerent and see more and more people who are fleeing and telling harrowing stories. 

I suspect you will continue to see even more of these stories. Pompeo and Trump are anxious to heat up a cold war here. Elites from many Western countries are anxious for a weaker China. Falun Gong has already found itself in a position to be offered millions of dollars by Western sources who otherwise have no interest in the religious aspects of the cult.

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

Are you not watching the current news?  All the lawmakers in Hong Kong who have voted for democratic laws in the past were taking into custody.

There you go again. What news sources are claiming that something like this is happening to "all the lawmakers in HK who have voted for democratic laws"? Why the exaggeration? Is it necessary to create a certain narrative about HK?

Here is the news about "all the lawmakers:" https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/26/hong-kong-police-arrests-over-protests-last-year.html

• Hong Kong police arrested 16 people Wednesday on charges related to anti-government protests last year, including two opposition lawmakers.
• Pro-democracy legislators Ted Hui and Lam Cheuk-ting were arrested early Wednesday, according to posts on their Facebook pages.
• Posts on Lam’s Twitter account said he had been arrested on charges of conspiring with others to damage property and obstructing the course of justice during a protest in July 2019. The tweets said he has also been accused of rioting on July 21, 2019.
• The Democratic Party in Hong Kong confirmed in a separate Facebook post that both members were arrested.
• Posts on Lam’s Twitter account said he had been arrested on charges of conspiring with others to damage property and obstructing the course of justice during a protest in July 2019. The tweets said he has also been accused of rioting on July 21, 2019.

Although the Democratic Party in HK claims that Hui (one of the two lawmakers arrested) was only a victim, there is plenty of evidence that the conspiracies to promote terrorism came from the fascist side of these demonstrations, not from the police or the Chinese government. There is also plenty of evidence that the fascist/terrorist side of these demonstrations were coordinated with American and other Western factions. Many have been arrested, probably thousands. But here we have only TWO of the lawmakers who have voted for democratic laws.

Also, this has nothing to do with democracy. It is about a downturn in the economic cycle. The elite in HK are losing the ability to sustain the promises of capitalism to the frustrated youth of HK. The blame MUST be put on China. This is why the original cause of the protests was whipped up from something that the rioters never even cared about. (same source as above)

• The semi-autonomous Chinese city saw months of anti-government protests after the government announced its intent to pass a controversial extradition bill that would have allowed criminal suspects to be sent to the mainland to stand trial. Anger over the bill, seen as an infringement on the former British colony’s freedoms, sparked protests that at times descended into violence between police and demonstrators, and protests continued even after the bill was later shelved.

Legally, China had every right to extradite a HK citizen who was suspected of strangling his girlfriend to death in Taiwan. So they proposed a law that would allow extraditions to and from HK, so that HK would also be able to respond to extradition requests from other countries, too. But when the rioting started, China shelved the bill. But the rioting kept going anyway. Note:

https://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-taiwan-china-hong-kong-chan-tong-kai-murder-20190619-story.html

Reporting from TAIPEI, Taiwan — 

More than a year ago on the outskirts of Taipei, Taiwan’s capital, a woman’s decomposed body turned up in a grassy thicket near a riverside recreation area popular with tourists.

The 21-year-old Hong Kong woman had been visiting Taiwan, according to a Taipei police report. A male friend, also from Hong Kong, is suspected of strangling her during a Valentine’s Day trip, a police official said Wednesday.

The suspect, Chan Tong-kai, 20, returned to Hong Kong four days after the possible murder — as if nothing had happened — before Taiwan police could investigate a cause of death.

“Not too many people knew about it, and I don’t think this case attracted a lot of attention,” said Nathan Liu, an international affairs professor at Ming Chuan University in Taiwan. He read about it in newspapers just this month.

Now the case is getting noticed because it catalyzed a bill in Hong Kong that sparked a series of street protests this month involving more than a million people in the former British colony. Hong Kong officials say the Taiwan case exposed a legal loophole that the bill would close. It’s also exposing political Taiwan-China barriers that may keep the case from being resolved.

The bill would let Hong Kong sign extradition deals with other governments. Other governments could in turn prosecute Hong Kong people suspected of crimes on their soil after extradition. Protesters fear Hong Kong suspects would land in China for political reasons and get stuck in an opaque legal system in which the death penalty is legal.

[JW Insider]

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

Of course - some people he spoke to were suspicious but all in all the documentary was perfect because it gave one a good idea of how advanced things are there.  

Being able to get an organ for a transplant is not a crime. My granddaughter's babysitter's son needs a kidney transplant, but he is only borderline eligible depending on a certain test that he has failed and passed and failed and passed. She knows that inefficiency in the US system is a terrible problem.

There is nothing wrong with having an efficient organ transplant database. You will find anti-Chinese sources that will claim that China gets these donations from prisoners. And if that doesn't sound "draconian" enough, they will claim that the organs are taken from them while they are still alive.

Of course, the issue of prisoner organ donations and organ donations from those executed is controversial. Consider:

• In China there is no law against prisoner organ donation; however, the transplant community has discouraged use of prisoner's organs since the early 1990s due to concern over prisons' high-risk environment for infectious diseases.^[1] Physicians and ethicists also criticize the idea because a prisoner is not able to consent to the procedure in a free and non-coercive environment,^[2] especially if given inducements to participate. Also, many prisoners would not be eligible donors due to age, because many prisoners on death row are in their fifties or older.^[3] However, with modern testing advances to more safely rule out infectious disease and by ensuring that there are no incentives offered to participate, some have argued that prisoners can now voluntarily consent to organ donation just as they can now consent to medical procedures in general. With careful safeguards, and with over 2 million prisoners in China, they reason that prisoners can provide a solution for reducing organ shortages in China.
• While some have argued that prisoner participation would likely be too low to make a difference, one Chinese program . . . encourages inmates to voluntarily sign up to donate their heart and other organs.^[5] As of mid-2012, over 10,000 inmates had signed up in that one county alone.

Before you try to respond to this as some kind of skewed propaganda, I'll admit that it is. I lifted those paragraphs verbatim from a Wikipedia article, not about China, but about the United States. And the "Chinese program" was about 10,000 volunteers in just one county in Arizona, not China. I bolded all the places where I changed USA to China.

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

Ha-ha. China - sat on it a long time and took hospital doctors into custody who tried to warn others. CCP  allowed the Chinese workers in Italy to come home to China for the New Year and then return back to north- Italy.  Ever wondered why so many Italians were infected?

There are always a few days when it's too early to tell how serious a problem is. There will always be mistakes as there are with every contagious virus. Yet, it was still by far the fastest and most efficient identification and action taken against a virus in history.

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

No - you will not convince me......I have read too much about the predatory loans and how they have taken over ports and airports and even killed demonstrators in Africa. 

You will surely read about "predatory" loans, because this is a sore spot with the West where predatory loans have been the best way to cheat and steal from various countries all over the world. It seems that the West hates that their own reputation has turned so many countries away, and helped open up some of those same mines and resources to China. All the projection against China isn't working, because it's recognized as so hypocritical.

I've read about all the supposed dozens of Chinese military bases in Africa, and then it turned out to contradict later claims by the United States that China was about to open its first military base (Djibouti), and when I read about its uses, it was a stretch to even call it a real military base.

Please find the source that "they" (the Chinese) have even killed demonstrators in Africa. I looked and only found even African media sources reporting deaths of a few Chinese persons by Africans due to racial tensions (Zambia/Congo). I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I remember wanting to look into such cases before and not seeing anything credible.

I also have found that several of the supposed claims against China end up debunked just as these "fake videos" recently were used as evidence that Chinese were beating up Africans due to blaming coronavirus on them. But the video turned out to have been used in 2018 for another purpose, and in 2016 for another purpose: https://observers.france24.com/en/20200420-debunked-fake-videos-violence-africans-china-covid19

• Back in 2018, the video was widely circulated alongside a caption claiming that it showed a 25-year-old Zambian student who was killed for having a relationship with a Chinese woman. However, we also found even earlier instances of this video online.
• A better-quality, slightly longer version, which also includes footage of the same scene filmed at a different angle was posted back in August 2016, with a completely different story. That post claimed that the video showed shopkeepers in Kuching, Malaysia who were beating up a man who they caught trying to rob their shop.
• The FRANCE 24 Observers team was not able to independently verify if this is the real story behind the video, though we will update the page if we dig up more information on it. But one thing is clear -- this footage is old and has nothing to do with COVID-19.
• 2. A street fight between a group of black men and a group of Asian men
  
  Another video, which has garnered hundreds of thousands of views on Twitter, shows a street fight between a group of black men and a group of Asian men. One of the Asian men seems to be brandishing a kitchen knife.
  
  "In Guangzhou, Chinese people beat up Africans who they blame for allegedly bringing back coronavirus,” reads the caption on the video, translated from French. But the caption is false twice over. The incident actually took place in New York and happened long before the pandemic.

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

  I do not get my news from CNN, MBC or Fox. 

I never thought you did. I have seen many media sources much more fascist, biased and even outright racist than these sources are.

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

There you go again.

Who was it that slam-dunked a debate and went on to win an election on the strength of that line?

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Or perhaps that Trump claimed he would withhold aid from fire-razed California because they didn't vote for him.

The other way to phrase this is that certain states have taxed themselves into oblivion and certain states have “lived within their means” and that the former are hoping to transfer their massive debt onto the feds under the guise of Covid-19 relief and that Trump balks at that. Such states are nearly always Democrat—it is in the nature of Democrats to run up such expenses far more than Republicans (arms spending is irrelevant for a state). So it is not really that “they didn’t vote for him,” it is that they hope to transfer their social engineering ambition, and inefficiently onto the feds—and they happen to be Democrats because that’s what Democrats do.

And, in the words of another POTUS, who always wanted to “let me be perfectly clear about that,” since I live in one of those pricey states, It is probably in my financial interest if the orange man loses—the other guy is much more likely to pick up the tab that “my” gov has run up.

And...somewhere along the line it must fit in somehow that I am now in the Gilded Age Great Courses theory. Why did America become the industrial giant when it did, eclipsing everyone else? The professor posits much of it is the “luck” to exist where natural resources were abundant. He then says natural resources are not the only factor, though, since Japan later became a huge industrial power and they have almost no natural resources at all. On the other hand, Russia, he says, has abundant natural resources “but has never really developed as an industrial power.” What sort of a government did Russia long have, and is in some ways returning to now? 

Of course, this is economic growth we are speaking of, and not justice per se. I think no one would clarify that the the country was an especially bright beaco for justice, though. And no, the czars didn’t help either. But they disappeared long ago.

[JW Insider]

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

And...somewhere along the line it must fit in somehow that I am now in the Gilded Age Great Courses theory.

When I was even more naive about the Internet and copyright issues I found a site that had every one of the "Great Courses" on it, in mp3 format, as they existed in 1999 or so. I ended up deleting them. But I really wanted them because I had already checked a few out of the library, and when I couldn't finish them in a three week period, I admit to copying quite a few of the CDs I got to listen at a later time. I rationalized that I photocopied dozens of books from the library and since these were for personal use, I figured there can't be that much trouble for saving photocopies. But then I hit upon a library sale while working in Syracuse that had, $10,000 worth of these for $150. The total was about $1000 for all of them piecemeal, but I asked "What if I bought all of them?" We haggled between $200 and $100 and met in the middle. I guess it was their backup copy, probably bought on a grant anyway, and the library got some cash for something that wasn't being checked out.

Since then I have added a few more newer ones to the collection by checking them out of the library. I figured I'd listen to more after I get back into jogging or riding my bike, but tying their use to those things isn't a good plan for a procrastinator. At any rate, you piqued my interest in Voltaire, which I hadn't listened to, although I have listened to the Gilded Age. I have Bart Ehrman's course(s) too, but figured I had seen enough of his books and blog. (In that arena, I prefer the late Larry Hurtado's blog.)

I've probably only completely listened to 10 out of about 50. Also, for biology, physics, chemistry, math, etc, there are a lot of good "replacements" now on Yale's and Harvard's websites and YouTube. I found that while jogging, I wasn't so good at paying close attention, or remembering things I had heard that I wanted to write down.

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

But I really wanted them because I had already checked a few out of the library,

Probably I should not admit that I was halfway through the 47 -lecture Eastern Civilization course when you began this thread, and that without that new background, my meager contributions would have been more meager yet—perhaps confined to a rant about how Chinese Checkers is not as good as real checkers.

[Arauna]

On 8/28/2020 at 9:01 PM, JW Insider said:

coming from South Africa is not the same as coming from Ethiopia

Communism when it becomes constrictive is the same everywhere  and so is corruption ... and the same tactics of starvation which is used against citizens in Africa is an old communistic tactic.  Most African leaders were trained in  Libya's universities ( Ghadafi ), Cuban schools or in Russia. 

On 8/28/2020 at 9:45 PM, JW Insider said:

nothing wrong with having an efficient organ transplant database

Millions on a database is bad... and I do not know of any country which has several immediate matches of tissue available- within a day.   It is not that Western systems are inefficient - one has to get permission to use organs and one needs family members to sign for their use.  In CCP china - they take them out while you are alive against your will! 

Have you seen news lately?  Many programs done by Germany, Australia and other countries - surprisingly even human rights organizations... give proof of what is going on. There are so many things happening which prove my case.  China is aggressive in Asian sea - ramming fishing boats, not allowing other countries to fish in their own waters.   On India's border they are putting up missiles etc and controlling water etc. 

If this is neighborly behavior to you - that is fine with me.  You have a right to your own opinion no matter how warped it may be.    I know USA is a dragon but so is China - and you are making apologetics for China's human rights violations......... organ harvesting and imprisonment of ethnic groups.... while conscientious objector are facing the same fate - organ harvesting......  So, why you are doing this, I would not know...  all I know is that this is a repetition of history....   I watched an interview of a journalist who was invited to one of the 'show-re-education camps' - or shall I say the good 'propaganda camps....'.    These are the ONLY places a foreigner is allowed to visit.  Police follow all foreign journalists and visitors are watched. His comments confirmed the narrative.

When stories were trickling out of Germany of concentration camps and killings of prisoners - I guess it was so horrific  that some naive leaders could just not believe it.  The same is happening now.

That is why I do not argue with your arrogant attitude - speaking down at me as if I am ignoramus.  You quote selected books that were written by people who would like to believe their own importance and ignore what is going on in reality. A repetition of history in time of Hitler.....  many people tried to make peace with Hitler and did not want to go to war ... but it did not help them..... the inevitable came.

I  read today that 500 billionaires and many  of the CCP members have sent money out of the country a long time ago and their family members have already left china - they have bought golden passports in small countries like Cyprus.   A collapse of something is eminent.   To save face, the CCP is becoming aggressive under Xi Ping and may even go to a minor war to show their strength ... or to give the country a feeling of unified nationalistic pride......   There are many Chinese who love his aggressive attitude.... The suppression of outside news and only nationalistic propaganda works well.

My interest in China is NOT POLITICAL.   I see her as part of the King of the North which has been pushing the south ECONOMICALLY and it may become more that just an economic  pushing. (like two rams who want the treasure and push for supremacy).  Russia is doing exactly the same.....  meddling in neighbors affairs and taking over bit by bit.   A little 'piece' here and a little piece there - which also reminds me of the Hitler era.

I may be wrong - but the more I see the more I think things are heating up.....the signs are here - but oh - I forgot .... you do not believe in signs..... so this is just a little glitch  - western propaganda to make China lose face. .. and then all will be well again..... just like before.....  

I am not interested in the past history - I am only evaluating what is happening in 21st century - at present.

USA is also heading for wide-spread radical left anarchy.  Like the Bolsheviks - a small criminal group that is not satisfied with less than anything than a revolution will seed anarchy and develop a taste for it - they will burn and go on destroying. Nothing will satisfy these cultural mao-ists - everything must be destroyed to build  a new order from scratch.  Similar to the Bolshevik revolution, the rich that were anti-monarchy funded these  small radical organizations and thought they could control them.... to their detriment.   What lies ahead I do not know ..... but I see a radical element which is communist active everywhere (even in UN) and this will lead to the one world government which will be very totalitarian - whoever the 'ten countries' will be who give their autonomy over to it.

On 8/28/2020 at 9:45 PM, JW Insider said:

risoner's organs since the early 1990s d

I have been watching what is going on in China since 2006 when they were caught the first time with organ harvesting.  To quote these naive authors is ludicrous.  Since when has china followed any agreements they have with other countries? ... or even in their own?  Chinese governors go on taking properties, destroying peoples lives....... the only restriction is this: do not be caught.  When it becomes public knowledge then the CCP will come down on the perpetrator with full force if CCP loses face.  Otherwise you can get the job done any way you like.

CCP make agreements and then break their side of the bargain time and again.  They are NOT trustworthy... and if you want to believe their propaganda you are welcome!   

Fentanol - killing many Americans - raw materials are shipped from China... subversive and evil.

On 8/28/2020 at 9:45 PM, JW Insider said:

predatory loans have been the best way to cheat and steal from various countries all over the world.

The West uses money laundering, except when it is the banking syndicate.  Most of the money that went to Ukraine was laundered back to US leader's pockets through charity organizations as the AIDS slush fund and anti-corruption organizations (lol).  

World bank and most central banks serve the bankers and yes - they are getting rich from creating fiat money and illicit banking practices. Most weak countries has lent money from central banks to get through the Corona crisis and the agreements have strong strings attached.   I think I will really be happy when these people cry over the money they have lost after they have turned against religion.  Their bunkers and their money will be no protection for them. The level of nepotism and corruption is staggering.

But as we know - the whole world is in the hands of Satan and individuals with morals and integrity are less and less in number.  The tsunami of wickedness is really taking over the planet and most governments. 

On 8/28/2020 at 9:45 PM, JW Insider said:

hinese military bases in Africa

They are not called military bases - that is why you will not read about them.  They are called bases for cultural exchange!  I read the some South African police are learning Chinese as part of the cultural exchange! And Chinese military equipment is stored on their properties.

On 8/28/2020 at 9:45 PM, JW Insider said:

chinese were beating up Africans

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/27/africa/zimbabwe-mine-shooting-intl/index.html

This is NOT an isolated incident....

 Last year, Chinese firm Tsignchan signed a $2 billion deal with the Zimbabwean Ministry of Mines to extract chrome, iron ore, nickel and coal, vital resources for China.   Copper in Zaire etc.  

'China’s biggest cobalt producer is to stop buying from individuals in the Democratic Republic of Congo, bowing to pressure from customers and rights groups concerned about child labour in the country’s informal mining sector. '

This I saw in 2010 :

Police in Zambia have charged two Chinese mine managers with attempted murder after they allegedly opened fire on a group of miners.

At least 11 workers were injured in the incident at the Collum coal mine in the southern town of Sinazongwe.

The owners were reported to have felt threatened by the miners during a protest about their pay and conditions.

The case has brought an angry reaction in Zambia, where Chinese businesses have invested heavily.

My comment: frankly - the Chinese will have to take these kind of measures because they do not know Africa - they are very naive regarding Africa.... on the other hand -  they are just as ready to use violence than the Africans....

China is taking over all kinds of mines all over the world because they want to control all rare metals. 

[JW Insider]

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

Communism when it becomes constrictive is the same everywhere  and so is corruption ... and the same tactics of starvation which is used against citizens in Africa is an old communistic tactic. 

It just seems even more prejudicial to blame starvation as a tactic of communism when it was a tactic of mostly European imperialism for centuries. It wasn't until the 1960's that the majority of African nations found a measure of independence from European masters who were only bent on robbing and cheating Africa out of local resources.

A closer look and you will find that there are hardly any examples of starvation as a "tactic" by communist nations. Not in Russia, not in China, and not in Ethiopia. Starvation is often the catalyst under feudalism, and capitalism, and imperialism that incentivizes communism in the first place.

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

Most African leaders were trained in  Libya's universities ( Ghadafi ), Cuban schools or in Russia. 

Whether this matters or not I don't know. But I suspect that this is just another claim that is supposed to be prejudicial and very likely is far from true, like so many of the other claims made here. If you have evidence, however, it might be interesting. I looked up about 10 random leaders and it seemed not to be true of any of them.

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

It is not that Western systems are inefficient - one has to get permission to use organs and one needs family members to sign for their use.  In CCP china - they take them out while you are alive against your will! 

The claims taken as supposed evidence for this is laughably dubious. If you would take the time to get to know several people from several different parts of China, and get to know their feelings about their government, both negative and positive, you probably would find it more difficult to accept the ravings of fear-mongering lunatics from Falun Gong. Falun Gong's finances have come to depend on such claims. The belief that China takes organs out of living people against their will is the equivalent of Russia saying that JWs are extremists. Or the equivalent of kids I went to school with who claimed that Nazis lubricated their tank engines with human babies.

It's easy to make claims without evidence. Therefore it should be easy to dismiss such prejudicial claims without evidence.

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

Have you seen news lately?  Many programs done by Germany, Australia and other countries - surprisingly even human rights organizations... give proof of what is going on. There are so many things happening which prove my case.

Claims don't prove anything. In fact, after so many of them are debunked you begin to see a pattern that can help you judge future claims. Do you think everything that North Korean schoolchildren supposedly learn about the United States is somehow proven? And for all we really know, North Korea might not actually be teaching schoolchildren the things about the United States that the US says they are teaching.

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

China is aggressive in Asian sea - ramming fishing boats, not allowing other countries to fish in their own waters.   On India's border they are putting up missiles etc and controlling water etc. 

I suspect there is some truth to this claim by Vietnam and the Philippines. Of course, it is reported as if China is suddenly moving into these waters to bully other countries. China has been fishing the waters of the South China Sea for generations and no international courts have changed those boundaries yet. China believes this is part of China, and although it will sometimes allow other nations to fish in these waters, China will also set fishing limits, or even set rules that one cannot fish out of season at certain latitudes. But these cases, and the types of conflicts they are now causing, seem very believable. At this link, it is clear that China is trying to set rules that Vietnam has declared they will not comply with. https://www.maritime-executive.com/article/report-chinese-vessel-rams-vietnamese-fishing-boat-in-s-china-sea

• "The Consular Department of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Vietnamese Embassy in Beijing discussed with China to assert Vietnam's sovereignty over the Paracel Islands," a Vietnamese foreign ministry spokesperson told Tuoi Tre. "The Chinese side investigated and verified the case information and notified the results to the Vietnamese authorities to continue coordinating."
• China has enacted a seasonal ban on fishing in the South China Sea above 12 degrees of latitude, effective May 1. China claims almost the entirety of the South China Sea, including waters within neighboring states' EEZs. Both Vietnam and the Philippines have criticized the fishing ban, and Vietnam has announced that its fleet will not comply with the unilateral prohibition.

As the link above shows, the problems are usually around the disputed Spratly and Paracel land features of these archipelagos. I'd say that Vietnam has just as much claim to them, but they are deep within an area near the center of the South China Sea that China had successfully claimed before and after WWII, when many world boundaries were "set" and "reset." China also seems to have been the nation defending them from potential claims by European powers in the 1800's, per Wikipedia. Even an American claimed one of them in the 1950's:

• A later 1859 edition of the map named the Spratly Island as Storm Island.^[60] The islands were sporadically visited throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries by mariners from different European powers (including Richard Spratly, after whom the island group derives its most recognisable English name, who visited the group in the 1840s in his whaler Cyrus).^[62] However, these nations showed little interest in the islands. In 1883, German boats surveyed the Spratly and the Paracel Islands but eventually withdrew the survey, after receiving protests from the Guangdong government representing the Qing dynasty. China sent naval forces on inspection tours in 1902 and 1907 and placed flags and markers on the islands.^[63]
• In the 1950s, a group of individuals claimed sovereignty over the islands in the name of Morton F. Meads, supposedly an American descendant of a British naval captain who gave his name to Meads Island (Itu Aba) in the 1870s. In an affidavit made in 1971, the group claimed to represent the Kingdom of Humanity/Republic of Morac-Songhrati-Meads,^[64] which they asserted was in turn the successor entity for a supposed Kingdom of Humanity established between the two world wars on Meads Island, allegedly by the son of the British captain. This claim to this would-be micronation fell dormant after 1972, when several members of the group drowned in a typhoon.^{[65][66][67][68]}

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

On India's border they are putting up missiles etc and controlling water etc. 

India and China have currently settled the border disputes. India is not complaining about the way China controls the water sources in Tibet, except that the tensions have resulted in less information about the release of water from hydro-electric dams, information about potential monsoon flooding, and flooding from glacier blockages in the Himalayas. Currently there is more concern over potential flooding of the rivers in India, but over time, as glaciers melt away, this will no doubt return as a big geopolitical issue again.

The fact that China has military and missile capabilities comparable to the US and Russia is a concern. Unlike the United States, China has a never strike first policy which is why the majority of their military work is on capabilities for detection and deterrent. (It's the advanced nature of their ANTI-missile system that the US is more worried about.) But no one should trust any other country during the fog of war, so this might not mean much.

However, there is no necessary connection between the missiles and controlling water. I've seen where India has often had a much worse reputation in fact for its own downstream countries like Pakistan and Bangladesh: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-41303082

• The news came just when Indian media were suggesting that Delhi could pull out of the Indus Water Treaty - signed with Pakistan - following a militant attack in Indian-administered Kashmir.
• As an upstream country for Bangladesh and Pakistan, India too has time and again been accused by these downstream countries of ignoring their concerns.

 

[JW Insider]

18 hours ago, Arauna said:

Fentanol - killing many Americans - raw materials are shipped from China... subversive and evil.

You are echoing Falun Gong again. This next quote is from an article about Falun Gong's fake news: https://hpr1.com/index.php/feature/news/a-truly-fake-news-media/

• That The Epoch Times publishes Associated Press stories is only one avenue they’re using to legitimize the publication and mainstream their political agenda. . . .
• The Epoch Times is a publication searching to further the divides between America and China, being referred to as a legitimate source in dozens of articles pertaining to the opioid crisis and how China is waging “chemical warfare” against the United States by exporting fentanyl on the black market. One such story was written by The Epoch Times and republished by Amac, Association for Mature American Citizens.
• China is hostile and foreign, according to the September 5 story, which also claims the China’s Central Government is behind the illicit sales.
• The Falun Gong is a cult that rose in China in the 1990s, with a membership that soon surpassed Communist Party members at that time. Before the cult was banned in China, adherents embarked on a widespread evangelical-like campaign warning Chinese citizens that they must cut all affiliations with the nation’s ruling party if they wanted to survive an upcoming revolution, a kind of “communist hell.”

One of the successes of Mao's communism was the near eradication of drug abuse and dependence on opium related products in their economy. Propaganda is often quite clever.

This isn't to say that there were not bad actors everywhere. But merely claiming that most of the illegal creation and sales of fentanyl (and carfentanil, etc) came from China was not paired with evidence. The greater part of China's fentanyl sales into the United States and Canada was apparently for legitimate drugs.

Of course, China should have regulated all vendors of fentanyl much sooner. It is now rated in China as an illegal, controlled substance, even though it is still used widely by hospitals for legitimate purposes, such as treating pain in cancer patients according to the CDC site. Also, Chinese vendors were more often accused of selling the precursor chemicals, not the finished product. The greater sources of the finished product were from a combination of Mexico and India. And now that China has cracked down on fentanyl and its precursor chemicals, the US DEA says that Mexico is getting more of their precursor chemicals from elsewhere: https://www.dea.gov/sites/default/files/2020-03/DEA_GOV_DIR-008-20 Fentanyl Flow in the United States_0.pdf

• The flow of fentanyl into the United States in 2019 is more diverse compared to the start of the fentanyl crisis in 2014, with new source countries and new transit countries emerging as significant trafficking nodes. This is exacerbating the already multi-faceted fentanyl crisis by introducing additional source countries into the global supply chain of fentanyl, fentanyl-related substances, and fentanyl precursors. Further, this complicates law enforcement operations and policy efforts to stem the flow of fentanyl into the United States. While Mexico and China are the primary source countries for fentanyl and fentanyl-related substances trafficked directly into the United States, India is emerging as a source for finished fentanyl powder and fentanyl precursor chemicals.
• . . . As Beijing and the Hong Kong Special Autonomous Region (SAR) place restrictions on more precursor chemicals, Mexican transnational criminal organizations (TCOs) are diversifying their sources of supply. This is evidenced by fentanyl shipments from India allegedly destined for Mexico. On May 4, 2018, the Hong Kong SAR updated their drug law to control the fentanyl precursors 4-anilino-N-phenethyl-4- piperidine (ANPP) and N-phenethyl-4-piperidone (NPP) as well as the synthetic opioid U-47700. This matches China’s scheduling of ANPP and NPP on July 1, 2017. The move by the Hong Kong SAR is considerable, since synthetic opioids produced and shipped from China may transit the Hong Kong SAR en route to the United States.Effective May 1, 2019, China officially controlled all forms of fentanyl as a class of drugs. This fulfilled the commitment that President Xi made during the G-20 Summit. The implementation of the new measure includes investigations of known fentanyl manufacturing areas, stricter control of internet sites advertising fentanyl, stricter enforcement of shipping regulations, and the creation of special teams to investigate leads on fentanyl trafficking. These new restrictions have the potential to severely limit fentanyl production and trafficking from China. This could alter China’s position as a supplier to both the United States and Mexico.

The United States takes credit for pushing to make production of fentanyl illegal in China, especially after Prince's death in 2016 and discussions going on from 2017 to 2019. But it's not like the United States was so far ahead. Note these comments from Webmd.com:

• Fentanyl is a powerful synthetic opioid approved by the FDA for use as a painkiller and anesthetic. It works by binding to opioid receptors in the brain, but it does so faster -- and in smaller doses -- than morphine . . .
• How has law enforcement responded to the challenges posed by fentanyl makers, who are constantly changing the formulas for the drug so new versions might not be covered by laws making them illegal?
• That has been a serious problem for law enforcement. Since fentanyl is a legal prescription drug, it didn’t fall under Schedule I of the Controlled Substances Act (CSA), which would have made it illegal. In response to this problem, the Drug Enforcement Administration in February [2018] issued a temporary order to place all fentanyl-related substances that are not already regulated by the CSA into Schedule I.
• Criminal penalties will now apply to anyone who illegally makes, distributes, imports, exports, or possesses fentanyl-related substances. The order is effective for 2 years, with a possible 1-year extension. This will make it easier for law enforcement to deal with the explosion in fentanyl-related trafficking and overdose deaths.

And, yes, I'm sure the drug has been used for evil. Major nations have been said to have studied it as a chemical weapon: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/china-sell-opioid-carfentanil-fentanyl-chemical-weapon-unrestricted-chinese/

• For decades before being discovered by drug dealers, carfentanil and substances like it were researched as chemical weapons by the U.S., U.K., Russia, Israel, China, the Czech Republic and India, according to publicly available documents. They are banned from the battlefield under the Chemical Weapons Convention. . . .
• Forms of fentanyl are suspected in an unsuccessful 1997 attempt by [Israel's] Mossad agents to kill a Hamas leader in Jordan, and were used to lethal effect by Russian forces against Chechen separatists who took hundreds of hostages at a Moscow theater in 2002. . . .
• China already has controlled fentanyl and 18 related compounds, but despite periodic crackdowns, people willing to skirt the law are easy to find in China’s vast, freewheeling chemicals industry. Vendors said they lied on customs forms, guaranteed delivery to countries where carfentanil is banned and volunteered strategic advice on sneaking packages past law enforcement.

[JW Insider]

21 hours ago, Arauna said:

They are not called military bases - that is why you will not read about them.

But I do read about them. Plenty. More than enough to debunk the idea that propagandists promote. A lot of this is emphasized in the US press to distract from the fact that the US spends more on military than the next 10 largest nations combined. And much of what China calls military is used for internal infrastructure. Based on population you would expect China to have at least 5 times the US expenditure, but it's only 1/3 the US. 

21 hours ago, Arauna said:

This is NOT an isolated incident....

There have been several racial attacks on Chinese by Africans in a few countries, mostly based on disagreements by citizens of those countries with the deals made by their leaders, which is then taken out on the Chinese persons there. There are about 10,000 Chinese persons working in Zimbabwe for example. There have been cases of abuse of Africans by Chinese, too. I don't doubt it a bit. But the difference between the numbers of incidents and the scale of incidents has given the Chinese such a better reputation that the West is clearly afraid they will lose their ability to make rapacious deals when the West laments that the Chinese have been doing a better job. 

Similar to the incident you linked to (CNN) where the workers wanted US dollars, the NYT reports that there have been several strikes (riots?) also where workers wanted to be paid in US dollars, due to skyrocketing inflation. This case has nothing to do with China, but NYT reports that Zimbabwe sent its army against its own people and, although it doesn't say who or how, 6 strikers, I assume, were killed, with another 17 fatally shot in 2019 related to another strike. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/06/world/africa/zimbabwe-strike-protest-wages.html

• Zimbabwe’s Civil Servants in Unprecedented Strike for Better Wages

• HARARE, Zimbabwe — Civil servants stung by Zimbabwe’s galloping inflation staged a one-day strike on Wednesday in a demand for increased wages, saying that their earnings were disappearing under skyrocketing prices. . . . Zimbabwean doctors, many of whom have been on strike for about two months, are demanding that their wages not only be increased, but that they be paid in American dollars as a hedge against inflation. . . .

   Since coming to power, President Emerson Mnangagwa’s government has resorted to force to quell dissent.

  In August 2018, after demonstrators in Zimbabwe’s capital called the country’s peaceful elections a sham and demanded the immediate release of the results in the July presidential poll, Mr. Mnangagwa’s government unleashed the army on protesters.

  At least six people were killed in the clashes.

  In January this year, Mr. Mnangagwa’s government again deployed the military when antigovernment protests broke out against a rise in fuel prices, leaving 17 people fatally shot in Harare and nearby towns. 

21 hours ago, Arauna said:

Last year, Chinese firm Tsignchan signed a $2 billion deal with the Zimbabwean Ministry of Mines to extract chrome, iron ore, nickel and coal, vital resources for China.   Copper in Zaire etc.  

Are you saying this is a bad thing? Perhaps it is, but are you just as willing to say it is a bad thing when Western nations are also making such deals, and have been for years, and currently have more such deals than China?

21 hours ago, Arauna said:

'China’s biggest cobalt producer is to stop buying from individuals in the Democratic Republic of Congo, bowing to pressure from customers and rights groups concerned about child labour in the country’s informal mining sector. '

Here, too, are you saying that it is a bad thing that China stopped buying from Congolese who use child labor? If you are pointing out that they only stopped buying after pressure, then why did you report this as if it was China's problem? The story comes through the UK based Financial Times where it was also reported:https://www.ft.com/content/ce9af944-fb70-4576-88d0-dc76821facfd https://www.business-humanrights.org/en/latest-news/chinas-biggest-cobalt-producer-agrees-to-stop-buying-from-individuals-in-drc-due-to-concerns-over-child-labour/

• It was named alongside technology companies including Apple, Dell and Microsoft in a US class-action lawsuit filed on behalf of families of children killed or injured while mining cobalt in the central African nation, said the Financial Times.
• Huayou has said it has cut child labour out of its supply chain and is working to help formalise small-scale mining in the DRC through efforts to improve safety and better trace cobalt…

If China was the first to properly respond to this pressure, then why is this not a story about how and when (and if) US-based compainies like Apple, Dell, and Microsoft responded?

Strangely, the FT article, includes a hint that China hopes that this is a temporary situation, and that the American companies will come together to help enforce standards that resolve the issue. Then there is a quote from Amnesty International that still finds fault with the Chinese decision, saying that if China refuses to buy that it will just make the economic situation worse for the Congolese, not better:

• https://www.ft.com/content/ce9af944-fb70-4576-88d0-dc76821facfd
• However, Mark Dummett, head of business, security and human rights at Amnesty, warned of unintended consequences from the company’s decision to stop buying from individual miners. “Artisanal mining is a lifeline for millions of impoverished people in the DRC,” he said. “We need to see companies working with the authorities to formalise it — make it safer, remove children, provide miners with a fair price. By refusing to buy from artisanal miners, Huayou risks making the situation for these miners worse, not better.”

[JW Insider]

I have moved some of this "organ harvesting" stuff over to a new topic so that it is easier to follow. Might also get a chance there to pick up some additional subjects that came up under this current topic before it got so overloaded.

https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/88011-organ-harvesting-falun-gong-tibet-etc-the-west-vs-china/

 

[Arauna]

On 7/26/2020 at 6:19 PM, JW Insider said:

When someone changed thousands to "for all we know, there might even be millions" the new number changed to "millions" without Western media even batting an eyelash. 

Well there are just too many reports coming out of those who have suffered.  And new camps keep going up ...... one can look at them (and the activities) on google earth. 

Our government is also now more aware how corrupted our politicians are by the big money they made in china during the boom - so most of them are compromised... on both sides of the isle.  Millions of dollars at our universities have been coming in from Qatar and China ... compromising their departments doing research and opening up science research for theft.

Silent wars have silent weapons.