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The WEST's war of words against CHINA. Starting with the Uyghurs.


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1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

One problem with over thinking is, what perception you are instilling in other people’s minds.

Whatever perception that is will be solved when they learn to mind their own business, as we are all advised to do.

1 hour ago, César Chávez said:

The Watchtower “rejects” that notion they are politically involved with any nation, but hear you find witnesses making the Watchtower out to be liars.

Just how do they do that? Are we to believe that the Wt expects people to eat Bible sandwiches 24/7? I think not. It is indulging an interest that is going on here, that is all, same as if brothers were working on a souped-up stock car, and trading shop-talk back and forth.

There are 8.6 million Witnesses in the world. Whatever two or three of them may being doing does not sink the ship.

Besides, for me, a hidden delight is to see that other yo-yo clucking his tongue at those showing an interest in “worldly politics.” I’ve known many brothers to take an interest in history. What are current events other than history in the making? Frankly, I have learned more here on the subject, in a condensed version, from the interplay of two with decidedly different experiences and viewpoints, than I have learned anywhere else.

An added benefit to me is that it validates the verse: “let God be found true, even if every man be found a liar.” There is not a position on earth that cannot produce reams of research to validate its view.

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4 hours ago, César Chávez said:

but it sure does give a bad impression and a bad taste.

Even were there something objectionable about it, it only does leave a bad taste to you. There are only two notable participants here, maybe four altogether, not counting yourself. Do you think every other Witness in the world  is on the edge of their seat cheering, booing, approving, or disapproving?

In fact, let this be a test. Anyone reading this, respond in some way—upvote, downvote, laugh, frown—doesn’t matter—and I don’t want them all to be you. 

My guess is that people have far more to do with their time so that it is not necessary for you to scold ones who comment on things you find uninteresting.

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Sorry about the formatting of that list of links. I started to write, got interrupted, and then just came back to the forum and just now saw the post for the first time in a couple days. I was able to fix it (I think).

15 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Is it, any different with what Russia is attempting to do with Ukraine and other Baltic States?

As for my opinion, I'd say 'Yes, it is different.'

15 hours ago, César Chávez said:

The question in geopolitical populace should be, why is China, now so focused on this region? It’s disputed land between Muslims and china.

Your question and response are very political. However they got to this point, whether it was merely "contact" starting in 176 BCE or governance from the 1st century BCE, it has long been considered to be a part of China. Early Chinese dynastic empires took over by force, brutally I'm sure, long before there was a Muslim religion, even before there was a Christian religion. (The very interesting book you quote from says that Han China sent 30,000 troops in 176 AD to try to squash the uprising of Kashgar, a major city in the region.) 

15 hours ago, César Chávez said:

People would need to understand the history of that region, and then simply conclude what China has been doing with disputed lands as to take them by force just as it has been doing.

Another politically loaded statement.

Here's an example to consider: Prisons in Texas are considered extra harsh, and the Texas legal system has put more people to death than any other state, and Texas is always among the top two states for school shootings. But we don't typically go back and remember how this was once Mexico, and how the USA took it by force, and how Texas was once an autonomous region. (From 1836-1845, Texas was a separate country from Mexico and the United States.) In other words, to explain certain issues in Texas, we don't say that the United States is still taking Texas by force, just because it once took Texas by force.

15 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Uyghurs claimed that the mummies provided inarguable evidence that their ancestors were the first inhabitants of Eastern Turkistan. This claim and the research findings of Western scholars disturbed the Chinese authorities. A minor crisis ensued when the mummies were sent to the United States for an exhibition in 2011

I noticed that you bolded these three sentences from the book you were quoting (link here). It intrigued me because it made no sense that China would be disturbed to find out that ancestors of Uyghurs were in this part of the world nearly two thousand years before China claimed any interest in it. (Evidence seems to show that Uyghurs themselves may not have come into the region until the 800's AD, but this does not mean that many didn't intermarry after that with those original inhabitants. And China had long admitted that these "ancestors" had Caucasoid features.) Besides, it was China that sent the mummies to the United States for an exhibit, along with other artifacts from the "Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region, China." China allowed the additional artifacts to remain on exhibit from February to June 2011, but had the mummies returned after less than two months. China said they were fragile and shouldn't be outside the country for too long.

National Geographic ( https://www.nationalgeographic.com/travel/intelligent-travel/2011/03/07/4000yearold_chinese_mummies_pr/ ) said that some suspected it might have been about "cultural sensitivities." There is no evidence that Chinese authorities were disturbed by what China was already exhibiting, and have continued to exhibit since 2011.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarim_mummies

The article in Wikipedia does give a source that explains how some Uyghur separatists were making some questionable claims about the mummies. (Claiming that Uyghurs as a whole, were directly descended from inhabitants of the region from 4000 years ago.) But the research of Western scholars actually disputed those Uyghur claims. The portion of the book you highlighted can be seen as a clever manipulation that juxtaposes the Uyghur claims, evidently false, and the findings of Western scholars, evidently true, which the Chinese authorities seemed to have no problem with:

"Chinese historian Ji Xianlin says China 'supported and admired' research by foreign experts into the mummies."

Without taking sides on who is right, you can at least see just how political those three sentences were, made even more so by the fact you highlighted them.

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Quote @César Chávez This is why, witnesses should not be concerned what role these evil empires will play before judgment day. They just need to know, it will happen, and no one on this earth will be able to do anything about it. Keep on the watch for your own peace of mind to keep your faith alive by these signs is NOT the same as being part of this world with politics. 

One problem with over thinking is, what perception you are instilling in other people’s minds. The Watchtower “rejects” that notion they are politically involved with any nation, but hear you find witnesses making the Watchtower out to be liars. Therefore, who would be the ones misrepresenting the Watchtower values just to post a headline?

@TrueTomHarley  I'm glad I amuse you. But the above quote is similar to what i said and was rebuked for. 

@JW Insider Of course you are all allowed to do whatever you please. All this politics is far beyond my thinking. Plus as I've said before, who knows what 'news' is true and what isn't.  @Arauna does seem to have a vast knowledge in these things it seems.  

The one thing I'm hoping is that you people are not using politics as some people use alcohol. As a means of blinding themselves from the true situation in their life. In this case blinding oneself from the true situation within the CCJW / Watchtower.  I wish you all a good day. 

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20 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Keep on the watch for your own peace of mind to keep your faith alive by these signs is NOT the same as being part of this world with politics. 

Agreed.  I like to know what is happening around me  and would like to point out  - ALL the empires are playing extreme games now  and some of our brothers are suffering under these extreme regimes.... soon to be world-wide.  It kind of prepares us for what we can expect in future. 

To apologize for any of the empire building, subversions, predatory loans, human rights abuses etc (pretty everyone is doing them but to different degrees at present) is taking sides. US (the prophet for democracy is also violating human rights and acting like a dragon.) That is why I do not apologize for regimes - just point out what they are doing and have been doing and where I think things are leading to. I also point to extreme philosophies (such as atheism, post modern philosophy and cultural communism in the west, totalitarianism of the CCP, Iran, and Russia) as it is part of the buildup to a new world order under the UN and its allies.  When I point out what China is doing I see it in the light of Daniel 11:40 onward.....it is fulfillment of a sign - TWO sides pushing each other economically...….. we cannot take sides in this.  BOTH are pushing like rams.  Also that no-one will be able to buy or sell is a form of totalitarian economic control which is a digitally reality (face recognition - no credit cards) and is looming over all of us as we speak.

We KNOW that they are going to act in this way and we see more and more evidence of it - UNLESS one does not believe we are close to Armageddon - which some people here do not believe because they believe that we should not be watching for signs because god is not going to give us any signs.  I believe these things which are happening together with Corona indicate that things are much closer than ever before. 

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Texas is always among the top two states for school shootings. But we don't typically go back and remember how this was once Mexico, and how the USA took it by force,

China (at present) is not interested in fighting a war with bombs. But is does intimidate its neighbors.  They built 7 artificial islands and then promised USA they will not militarize it.  Next thing they have airports and ports where war ships are docked and airplanes ready to take off. …on these islands.... which may lead to problems.  They are claiming seas and fishing areas which have never belonged to them historically (for past 150 years).  If they seem like villains it is their actions which are making them so.  We all know America has been aggressive but we did not know China to be so because their moto has been similar to that of Islam: Lie low and humble and wait until you have enough power...…. China has had a policy of pretending to be no threat to their neighbors while building their strength.   They have been very secretive about their actions such as loans etc.  Even taking over ports and air ports..... not widely advertised.  However, their military wing has infiltrated most universities in the west and  most organizations which can give them positive press coverage.  They even pay for wonderful write-ups in magazines through front organizations and exert pressure on Chinese immigrants in other countries.   I believe we will be seeing much more of them in future, especially since they are identified as part of the the king of North due to their treatment of JWs.  There is some dissent in CCP because Xi ping has become more open about the aggression... showing more of their hand than before.

20 hours ago, César Chávez said:

and no one on this earth will be able to do anything about it.

True -  I only watch for the signs. When I see the extreme corruption I know what is waiting for the world in future. 

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Uyghurs

We all know that Islam gives problems.  However, it is the way the Chinese are dealing with the problem which is the give-away...... very different to Europe for example.  And yet the UN views China as a model-for the west.... this is also a give-away of what we can expect in future from the UN.

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

what role these evil empires will play

There are worse threats than China or Russia.  The technocrats are thinking up evil schemes that we cannot even imagine and plan to use a future one world government for this...…… yes - Jehovah will have to step in...… otherwise no flesh will be saved.. 

 

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9 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

rehistoric history is the only type of history that has nothing to do with man’s politics.

Everything can be politicized.  Who would have thought that having a baby was political or that your choice of sex would be political a few years back. If one says that a man cannot have a monthly period - you are political these days. If they gaslight you and say it IS possible - and imply: "who do you think you are to deny it with X and Y chromosome arguments"?

I therefore try not to support any side or apologize for any side.  I just stipulate what is happening. Events are happening which are signaling a new world dispensation. Maybe I am not doing it 100% job of neutrality but I do try to bring it in context with the bible.

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4 hours ago, Arauna said:

UNLESS one does not believe we are close to Armageddon - which some people here do not believe because they believe that we should not be watching for signs because god is not going to give us any signs. 

Did he really say that? One time I called him out on how it is not much of a “last days” if it began in 33 and he said that as far as he was concerned, Armageddon might come in the next 5 minutes. I may be naive and inclined to cut people too much slack—those interminably long threads on chronology I either skim for the most part or even pass over entirely—but for me it is enough to say the present leadership is doing an overall good job and that leadership is essential in any project—and this he does repeatedly. People don’t have to come together on every particular, nice though that might be. As long he is not doing a Witness or a Rolf (the GB is nuts!—I am better) I can live with it.

If if eases Caser’s mind any (and even 4Jah), I have never seen such an in-depth discussion of international history, economics, and political maneuvering as here between JWI and yourself. Very very few brothers would have an interest or be capable of launching a similar thread. So it is not necessary for 4Jah or Cesar to say: “Well well well—it looks like JWs are taking an interest in “worldly politics.” Two of them are, and two are not very many, easily accommodated in the body of limbs that all work together.

Moreover, Cesar consistently upvotes one and downvotes the other—yet they both are equally political, so that if you moved these past few comments to a separate thread, he might not follow, since for some reason I cannot quite get my head around, there is much bad blood between he and a certain “ex-Bethelite.” As to comments making either a bad impression or, on the other hand, beIng innocuous, I think that could be said of both participants or neither. When I wrote ‘Dear Mr P—JWs Write Russia’ I determined NOT to present the northern king through the eyes of the southern, for if I did that, maybe some day the northern king would read it and get mad. For all I know, JWI’s trying to appreciate the viewpoint of the northern guy will make a better impression on him, and thus ease the suffering of our brothers in his domain, more so than does reaffirming the Western viewpoint of the “evil empire.” There is barely a drama anywhere in which the bad guys say, “We are the bad guys.” All of them are good guys. All of them have lofty goals. All of them have villainous implementations. All of them are subject to finger-pointing from the other side. Neutral though JWs strive to be, there was an occurrence or two of the phrase “iron curtain” in the 50s, and Emily Baran notes that it caused some grumbling among the Soviets, who didn’t view it as an iron curtain at all, but a “protective wall.”

Far more likely, I think, nobody reads this thread—I note that my invitation to respond in any way, with either an upvote or downvote, has attracted only two hits. Neither Putin nor Trump nor Xi is furiously hitting the upvote or downvote button like rats in a Skinner box, nor are any of the brothers. Not to worry should someone appear to be going off-script. I don’t think anyone is. JTR, for all his orneriness, had some good lines. One of them was: “that which is not expressly permitted is forbidden.” I rebuked him for it each time, because it is not so. But then along comes someone to suggest by what they would deny others that it is all so.

In my heart of hearts, I sometimes wish that brothers were as “well-rounded” with their heads as they are with their hands. It is not a big deal—“it is what it is” Trump recently said about something else, and how are you going to respond to that? “It isn’t what it is?” Get your head around how things “is”—I accept that. The greater world is the source of rebellion against God, misleading and being misled by you-know-who, so it is not the GB’s place to encourage ones to go out there for “balance.” They are concerned will preserving life. It is as it should be. They don’t encourage ones to take in-depth looks at how the kings speak for themselves. But that is not to say that they do not recognize that Witnesses have diverse interests.

 

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@TrueTomHarley Quote "Two of them are, and two are not very many, easily accommodated in the body of limbs that all work together."

Could you please explain the words that I have highlighted in red, thank you. I have a feeling you are referring to the Anointed and would like this clarified please. 

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4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

@TrueTomHarley You are indeed a true GB serving JW. But so be it.  I asked politely and you've refused. 

You did. You asked real politely and I’m a little ashamed of myself for being so curt. 

On the other hand, you reached exactly the same conclusion you would have had I been more cooperative, so I don’t know what you have to complain about.

It is possible to be too transparent, you know.

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