Wasn't Jesus' supposed parousia/advent to be recognized only by those who had spiritual insight at the time?

[JW Insider]

On 7/21/2020 at 11:25 AM, Anna said:

BUT, v. 23 talks about those belonging to Christ during his presence, as if his presence is at a different time to when he was resurrected. I suppose it all hangs on when Christ's presence began then (I know you have discussed this a number of time).

I think you referenced my opinion here. It's as follows:

We know that Jesus' invisible presence began in the first century, around 33 CE, because, as Jesus said:

(Matthew 18:20) For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.”

(Matthew 28:20) . . .And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

So, Jesus is invisibly present with Christians always from his resurrection UNTIL the conclusion (Gk, synteleia). If the conclusion began in 1914, then Jesus was saying he would be invisibly present with us UNTIL 1914.

But this is not the "parousia" which can also be translated "presence" or "visitation." The scriptures tie the "parousia" to the "glorious manifestation" of Jesus when he is revealed, and "every eye shall see him" and a time of sudden, bright flashing like lightning. (Scripture references available upon request. 😊) Thus, for several years, the following comment was included in the NWT appendix, which has since been removed from the 2013 Revised NWT:

*** Rbi8 p. 1577 5B Christ’s Presence (Parousia) ***
Also, Bauer, p. 630, states that pa·rou·siʹa “became the official term for a visit of a person of high rank, esp[ecially] of kings and emperors visiting a province.”

These visitations of royal personages were a spectacle, often with trumpeted fanfare and with the official accompanied by throngs of persons brought with him and joined by spectators alongside the parade. To make sure that the "parousia" went smoothly, the local authorities could even raise a special tax on the local citizens to fix the roads to make straight paths for the king's chariots and horses and entourage on foot. That tax was minted on "parousia" coins, or later "adventus" coins, just as they were in Paul's day. (This can explain why the first Bible translations did not translate "parousia" as presence, while koine (NT) Greek was still a living language. They used a word that meant "advent" or "visitation" focusing, therefore, on the arrival/coming, not the presence that followed.)

It seems obvious that this "parousia" did not start in 1914.

On the issue of when Jesus sat down in his Kingdom, this also seems pretty obvious from the scriptures. Jesus is called "king of kings" in the first century.

(1 Timothy 6:13-15) ...I give you orders 14 to observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords,

(Revelation 1:5, 6) . . .and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “the firstborn from the dead,” and “the Ruler of the kings of the earth.” To him who loves us and who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood— 6 and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father. . .

Immediately after his resurrection, Jesus said that "ALL authority" had bee given to him in heaven and on earth.

(Matthew 28:18) . . .“All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.

Trying to minimize this kingdom authority in the first century appears to take away from the scriptures. In the scriptures, Jesus is already "crowned" in the first century.

(Hebrews 2:9) 9 But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels, now crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death,. . .

(Hebrews 1:3) . . .he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

He already has a scepter:

(Hebrews 1:8) 8 But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.

And "sitting at God's right hand" means the same as "rule as king" as said above:

(1 Corinthians 15:25) . . .For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet.

So with this in mind, I think that 1 Cor 15:23 makes sense:

(1 Corinthians 15:20-26) . . .But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. 21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.

In other words, Jesus has now been raised from the dead, and he is the first of those to be raised alive "in the Christ." The word "during" is only used here because the NWT translators believe we should focus on a long time period. Most often the word just means "at."

So, first Jesus, then those who belong to him "at his visitation," at his parousia, at his manifestation, at his coming, at his arrival, at his presence, at that day.

(2 Thessalonians 2:8, 9) 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence [parousia].

Also.

(2 Timothy 4:1) I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his manifestation and his Kingdom:

Paul does not ever speak about 1,000 years, specifically, but he makes it appear that there is a resurrection of those "in the Christ" and then the end, when he brings to nothing all government and authority and power. Paul appears to refer to only one single end that includes bringing to nothing all these other governments, and that this results in the end of death. Mission accomplished.

From Paul alone, then, we can't tell where a 1,000 year reign fits in. Paul speaks from the perspective of this particular kingdom of Christ accomplishing its purpose, and in some sense being handed back to God at the point where the final enemy (death) is fully subjected. 

[Anna]

On 7/22/2020 at 11:33 AM, JW Insider said:

I think you referenced my opinion here. It's as follows:

We know that Jesus' invisible presence began in the first century, around 33 CE, because, as Jesus said:

(Matthew 18:20) For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.”

(Matthew 28:20) . . .And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

So, Jesus is invisibly present with Christians always from his resurrection UNTIL the conclusion (Gk, synteleia). If the conclusion began in 1914, then Jesus was saying he would be invisibly present with us UNTIL 1914.

But this is not the "parousia" which can also be translated "presence" or "visitation." The scriptures tie the "parousia" to the "glorious manifestation" of Jesus when he is revealed, and "every eye shall see him" and a time of sudden, bright flashing like lightning. (Scripture references available upon request. 😊) Thus, for several years, the following comment was included in the NWT appendix, which has since been removed from the 2013 Revised NWT:

*** Rbi8 p. 1577 5B Christ’s Presence (Parousia) ***
Also, Bauer, p. 630, states that pa·rou·siʹa “became the official term for a visit of a person of high rank, esp[ecially] of kings and emperors visiting a province.”

These visitations or royal personages were a spectacle, often with trumpeted fanfare and with the official accompanied by throngs of persons brought with him and joined by spectators alongside the parade. To make sure that the "parousia" went smoothly, the local authorities could even raise a special tax on the local citizens to fix the roads to make straight paths for the king's chariots and horses and entourage on foot. That tax was minted on "parousia" coins, or later "adventus" coins, just as they were in Paul's day. (This can explain why the first Bible translations did not translate "parousia" as presence, while koine (NT) Greek was still a living language. They used a word that meant "advent" or "visitation" focusing, therefore, on the arrival/coming, not the presence that followed.)

It seems obvious that this "parousia" did not start in 1914.

On the issue of when Jesus sat down in his Kingdom, this also seems pretty obvious from the scriptures. Jesus is called "king of kings" in the first century.

(1 Timothy 6:13-15) ...I give you orders 14 to observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords,

(Revelation 1:5, 6) . . .and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “the firstborn from the dead,” and “the Ruler of the kings of the earth.” To him who loves us and who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood— 6 and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father. . .

Immediately after his resurrection, Jesus said that "ALL authority" had bee given to him in heaven and on earth.

(Matthew 28:18) . . .“All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.

Trying to minimize this kingdom authority in the first century appears to take away from the scriptures. In the scriptures, Jesus is already "crowned" in the first century.

(Hebrews 2:9) 9 But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels, now crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death,. . .

(Hebrews 1:3) . . .he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

He already has a scepter:

(Hebrews 1:8) 8 But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.

And "sitting at God's right hand" means the same as "rule as king" as said above:

(1 Corinthians 15:25) . . .For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet.

So with this in mind, I think that 1 Cor 15:23 makes sense:

(1 Corinthians 15:20-26) . . .But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. 21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.

In other words, Jesus has now been raised from the dead, and he is the first of those to be raised alive "in the Christ." The word "during" is only used here because the NWT translators believe we should focus on a long time period. Most often the word just means "at."

So, first Jesus, then those who belong to him "at his visitation," at his parousia, at his manifestation, at his coming, at his arrival, at his presence, at that day.

(2 Thessalonians 2:8, 9) 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence [parousia].

Also.

(2 Timothy 4:1) I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his manifestation and his Kingdom:

Paul does not ever speak about 1,000 years, specifically, but he makes it appear that there is a resurrection of those "in the Christ" and then the end, when he brings to nothing all government and authority and power. Paul appears to refer to only one single end that includes bringing to nothing all these other governments, and that this results in the end of death. Mission accomplished.

From Paul alone, then, we can't tell where a 1,000 year reign fits in. Paul speaks from the perspective of this particular kingdom of Christ accomplishing its purpose, and in some sense being handed back to God at the point where the final enemy (death) is fully subjected. 

I've only been checking in to read posts and for the last couple of days not even that. Although this is off topic here, I still want to pursue this discussion. I did make some notes when I read your post first, but that was several days ago. In any case, It's not everything I want to say, and I have probably missed some things because I haven't had the chance to really think about it properly and do relevant research (it's our CO visit). Anyway, here are some of the questions I have come up with.

I don't have any references right now,  but wasn't Jesus's supposed parousia/advent to be recognized only by those who had spiritual insight at the time? In other words it wasn't going to be a fanfare for everyone in the whole world. I know it wasn't originally expected in 1914, Russell pointed to other dates before that, but close enough that it could be said that those Bible students expected the glorious manifestation of the Christ, albeit invisible, seen with spiritual eyes, in their lifetime. And as time progressed it was decided that 1914 had been the year when this happened. (Although that there is a contradiction in itself because it was to be recognized and celebrated WHEN it happened not after the fact).

You mentioned "(2 Timothy 4:8) From this time on, there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day, yet not to me only, but also to all those who have loved his manifestation".

So was this crown of righteousness given to all of Christs followers 'in that day' when Christ was made king in 33 CE?
 

If I understand it correctly these are the two timeline options. I probably got it all wrong so please correct me.

Option A
1.Jesus became king when he was resurrected to heaven in 33 C E. He battled with Satan and threw him down to the earth.
2. At the same time his invisible presence began, because he was to be present (in "spirit) with his followers, overseeing the congregations.
3. Synteleia: he will arrive to judge the nations at Armageddon, "where every eye will see him".*

Option B
1. Jesus was made king over the anointed/ congregation in 33 CE.
2.  At the same time his invisible presence  began, because he was to be present (in "spirit) with his followers, overseeing the congregations.
3. Synteleia: In 1914 he became ruling King and battled with Satan and threw him down to the earth.
4. He will "arrive" to judge the nations at Armageddon when every eye will see him.

One problem I can see is that when he arrived/will arive (synteleia) it would be a joyous occasion, welcoming the king with fanfare etc. This though would only be a joyous occasion for those who were Jesus's subjects, for Jesus enemies it would mean their end. 

I haven't really written everything down that I wanted to because I am running out of time again.

I would like to have these terms clarified please:

Coming, arriving and presence.

Got to goooo! 🏃‍♀️

 

 

[JW Insider]

22 hours ago, Anna said:

but wasn't Jesus's supposed parousia/advent to be recognized only by those who had spiritual insight at the time?

No. The parousia/advent was to be recognized by everyone, good and bad, righteous and unrighteous. There would be no mistaking it. It was not invisible.

When Jesus told the disciples that the buildings of the Temple would one day come tumbling down, the disciples immediately knew that this spectacular highly visible event was related to his parousia (visitation/advent/coming). They knew that the very term "parousia" was about the arrival of Jesus Christ in royal power, when the Kingdom of Israel was to be restored. We also know that the disciples had assumed that Jesus would somehow make this happen in his own lifetime and their own lifetime. When Jesus kept saying he would die first, they had trouble understanding.

So when they asked for a sign of his "parousia" and the "synteleia" [ending of things together] they were asking for some kind of advance warning so that they could find safety when their "world" came spectacularly crashing down around.

Jesus warned that some would be saying that Jesus had already arrived even though they couldn't see him at the moment. Jesus therefore warned against listening to anyone who might claim that an invisible parousia had already started. He said not to believe anyone who claimed he had returned but that no one could see him just yet, because the parousia would be like lightning, sudden and brightly visible from one horizon to the other horizon.

(Matthew 24:23-27) ²³ “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. ²⁴ For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. ²⁵ Look! I have forewarned you. ²⁶ Therefore, if people say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. ²⁷ For just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the presence [parousia] of the Son of man will be.

Around 1876, Nelson Barbour was telling Charles T. Russell and others: "Look! Here is the Christ." He thought he was going to come visibly like a flash of lightning, but now he believed Jesus was here but invisible. "He is present, but you can't see him. He is here, since October 1874, but effectively hidden in the inner rooms. Barbour and his friends were so anxious to be right about their prediction that Christ would arrive in October 1874, that they simply declared that he was here, even though he hadn't shown up.

(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) . . .For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence [parousia] of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward [then] we the living who are surviving will, together with them [at the same time], be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air;. . .

The LEB translation, with full support of the Greek, translates like this:

(1 Thess 4:17, LEB) Then we who are alive, who remain, will be snatched away at the same time together with them in the clouds for a meeting with the Lord in the air, and thus we will be together with the Lord always.

How could the "parousia" not be a visible spectacular event if persons from earth will be snatched away from earth to heaven at the same time as the resurrection to heaven?

The scriptures also tie the parousia directly to "the Lord's Day," "Judgment Day" as it were. There is no scripture that implies the parousia is separate from the "Lord's day," or "day of Jehovah" or "day of Christ." The separation is artificial so that the idea of an invisible parousia can be made to work.

Note in the very next verses after the mention of the parousia in 4:15-17 that Thessalonians goes immediately into stating:

(1 Thessalonians 5:1-3) . . .Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know very well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night. 3 Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them, just like birth pains on a pregnant woman, and they will by no means escape.

So the parousia is to be seen by those who will suffer sudden destruction, not just those who see with spiritual insight. Paul says the same thing in the second letter:

(2 Thessalonians 2:1, 2) . . .However, brothers, concerning the presence [parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you 2 not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.

Notice that it is the parousia that is tied to "our being gathered together to him." But just as Jesus warned, we shouldn't be shaken or deceived by anyone making claims about this parousia as if it is already here, before it is obvious:

(2 Thessalonians 2:8) 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence [parousia].

Not just those with spiritual insight but the lawless one too is revealed by the manifestation of his parousia. It can't be invisible if it is going to be obvious to those without spiritual insight.

(Revelation 1:7) . . .Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. . . .

(1 Timothy 6:14) . . .observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ,

(2 Timothy 4:1) 4 I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his manifestation and his Kingdom:

(2 Timothy 4:8) 8 From this time on, there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day, yet not to me only, but also to all those who have loved his manifestation.

Translating the "active participle" as if only in the past, can be misleading. The Greek can just as well refer to his future manifestation and can be translated as follows, which is probably better considering the immediate context:

(2 Timothy 4:8, NET) Finally the crown of righteousness is reserved for me. The Lord, the righteous Judge, will award it to me in that day - and not to me only, but also to all who have set their affection on his appearing.

(Titus 2:12, 13) . . .It trains us to reject ungodliness and worldly desires and to live with soundness of mind and righteousness and godly devotion amid this present system of things, ¹³ while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of our Savior, Jesus Christ,

(1 Corinthians 1:7, 8 ) . . .while you are eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ. 8 He will also make you firm to the end so that you may be open to no accusation in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

(1 Peter 1:7) . . .in order that the tested quality of your faith, of much greater value than gold that perishes despite its being tested by fire, may be found a cause for praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

(1 Peter 4:13) . . .so that you may rejoice and be overjoyed also during [at] the revelation of his glory.

(2 Thessalonians 1:7-2:1) . . .will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, . . .  ¹⁰ at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, . . . 2 ¹ However, brothers, concerning the presence [parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you ² not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.

(I know we already covered 2 Thess 2:1-2, but it is good to see it in context to more easily see that the parousia, revelation of the Lord Jesus, day of Jehovah, the time when he comes to be glorified, that day, etc., are all the same as the time of the visible revelation/manifestation.)

Also, our current parousia doctrine creates several minor contradictions. For example:

(James 5:7) . . .Be patient then, brothers, until the presence [parousia] of the Lord. Look! The farmer keeps waiting for the precious fruit of the earth, exercising patience over it until the early rain and the late rain arrive.

If the parousia had started in 1914, why would we only show patience UNTIL 1914. The same goes for Jesus saying he would be with us UNTIL the "synteleia." (Matt 28:20).  For example, Rutherford even claimed for many years that the holy spirit was no longer in operation with Rutherford or with the organization, because Jesus had already arrived by 1918, and the holy spirit was only there to fill in the gap until Jesus arrived.

The Bible never speaks of an "invisible" parousia, except to warn us against the idea.

[Arauna]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The parousia/advent was to be recognized by everyone, good and bad, righteous and unrighteous. There would be no mistaking it. It was not invisible.

I do not agree with this statement.  Only the Christians knew about this prophecy. The Pharisees did not accept Jesus and hence his warnings about the Parousia was not noticed by them. Neither did the Romans know about the prophecy.  Enemies of Jehovah contributed to the fulfillment of the Parousia in Jesus' generation but they did not know about the prophecy...… hence it was not unmistakable to them.  To the Christians when the Romans (disgusting thing) stood in the holy place they recognized it and fled.  Those who did not immediately obey were stuck in the city.  Those of weak faith would have been stuck like all the other Jews that actually all were streaming into Jerusalem for the Passover.  There is no way they saw all the signs otherwise they would not have come into the city for the Passover. The only thing I do agree with is that it was not invisible - the romans coming into the city - otherwise they would not recognize the sign...…  

[JW Insider]

9 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Only the Christians knew about this prophecy.

True. But the Bible makes very clear that the parousia has its effect on those who do not know God, too.

(2 Thessalonians 1:7-10) 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith. . .

The only way around this, is to claim something that the Bible never claims: that the "parousia" is different from "that day," "the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven" and "the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones."

The Bible speaks of only one time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones" and that day is sometimes called the parousia.

Notice the parousia tied to the time he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones here:

(2 Thessalonians 2:1) . . .However, brothers, concerning the presence [parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him,. . .

Notice the parousia tied to the time he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones here:

(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) . . .we the living who survive to the presence [parousia] of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.

Notice the parousia tied to the time he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones here:

(Matthew 24:27-37) . . .so the presence [parousia] of the Son of man will be. . . .30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity. . . . 36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence [parousia] of the Son of man will be.

(Mark 13:26, 27) 26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he will send out the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity.

Notice the parousia tied to the time he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones here:

(1 Thessalonians 3:13) 13 so that he may make your hearts firm, blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the presence [parousia] of our Lord Jesus with all his holy ones.

Therefore, the scriptures about the parousia and the day of Jehovah in the previous post still stand, too. The Bible makes no separation of the parousia from the revelation/manifestation of Jesus Christ in that day.

That day, that parousia, comes upon the righteous as well as the unrighteous at the same time:

(Luke 17:26-30) 26 Moreover, just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be in the days of the Son of man: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage until that day when Noah entered into the ark, and the Flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise, just as it occurred in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building. 29 But on the day that Lot went out of Sodʹom, it rained fire and sulfur from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 It will be the same on that day when the Son of man is revealed.

(Matthew 24:37, 38) 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence [parousia] of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,

Notice that the parousia is not paralleled with the days of Noah, but "that day" when Noah entered into the ark. Notice that the day the Son of man is revealed is not paralleled with the days of Lot, but "on the day" that Lot went out of Sodom.

The Bible never separates the revelation/manifestation from the parousia. In fact, the Bible uses the expression "manifestation of his parousia."

[Anna]

I am glad this has moved to its own topic. I have not read the rest of the comments yet (Arauna) only the first one by JWI.

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

(Matthew 24:23-27) ²³ “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. ²⁴ For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. ²⁵ Look! I have forewarned you. ²⁶ Therefore, if people say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. ²⁷ For just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the presence [parousia] of the Son of man will be.

I have always taken this scripture to mean that there will be people pointing to visible signs that Jesus is here. Like that he is physically in one particular spot, in the wilderness, or in an inner room...and that there will be many such people, false Christs (and there have been). So in contrast, and in that context, when v. 27 says that his presence will be from one end of the globe to the other, suggests that it could not be a literal physical presence of a person, since no one can be in more that one place at the same time. So therefor we should not be looking for Christ in one particular spot, in the wilderness or somewhere else. But we will see his "manifestation" from one end of the earth to the other. I know this is also WT interpretation, but it makes sense to me. So do you suggest that Christ will travel and greet every single person? (every eye will see him).

So there are two types of "appearances" :

The first is Christ's presence as the head of the congregation starting after his resurrection in 33 C E. (The WT agrees with that).
The second one is his appearance (manifestation) when he comes to take the remnant to heaven and judge, and every eye will see him because it will be the battle of Armageddon. (The WT agrees with that too). But the problem seems that with WT,  there are three appearances, 1.Christ's presence with the congregation after his resurrection in 33 CE, then interrupted with the great apostasy, then 2. restarted again in the time of the end (beginning 1914) and then 3. the manifestation where every eye will see him (Armageddon).
So the problem is obviously the  "interruption" part. Where is WT's scriptural basis for that? Although Jesus does not mention an interruption regarding his  presence with his disciples, he says he will be with them till the end, and wherever two or three are gathered in his name he will be with them, but what about the apostasy?  Are there  scriptures that the WT mentions in support of Christ no longer being present with two or three gathered in his name starting after the apostasy all the way to the present time; starting back up again in the 20th century? (I am sorry, I would look it all up but I don't have the time right now, you probably already know which scriptures WT uses to support that idea).

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

How could the "parousia" not be a visible spectacular event if persons from earth will be snatched away from earth to heaven at the same time as the resurrection to heaven?

The visual this gives me is something that I would rather not imagine as it reminds me of creepy scenes in anecdotal videos of people levitating and rising into the sky like balloons. I just cannot imagine seeing Br. Jackson in his suit and tie, (or would he be casual), ascending into the clouds.  Since flesh and blood cannot enter into the heavens, and those people will be transformed into spirits, that are invisible, how could then this whole scenario be visible? Of course I definitely agree with Armageddon being very visible, but not everyone could see the literal Jesus at the same time. That would be a physically impossibility, but all will know it is Jesus acting. Isn't that what is meant by every eye will see him?

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The scriptures also tie the parousia directly to "the Lord's Day," "Judgment Day" as it were. There is no scripture that implies the parousia is separate from the "Lord's day," or "day of Jehovah" or "day of Christ." The separation is artificial so that the idea of an invisible parousia can be made to work.

So obviously the  presence of Christ with his disciples from 33 CE onward is different from the presence at the end, since that presence will be the Judgement day/lords day/day of Jehovah etc. basically Armageddon. And this presence will be a literal manifestation as is mentioned by 2 Thessalonians 2:8  "Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence [parousia]".

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

So the parousia is to be seen by those who will suffer sudden destruction, not just those who see with spiritual insight.

Yes, I see that the parousia is tied in with not only being gathered to him (I am assuming that means in heaven, therefore the "rapture") but also to the day of Jehovah/Judgement day/Lords day/ Armageddon when those who suffer destruction will "see him" in the sense that they will know it is Jesus who is destroying the wicked.

 

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The Bible never speaks of an "invisible" parousia, except to warn us against the idea

So the WT sees it that Jesus' invisible  presence began in 1914, but we could also say it began in 33 CE because Jesus said he would be (invisibly) present with his followers right up to the end. That bit seems clear enough. In both versions his presence is associated with him becoming King (both 1914 or 33 CE).

Now to his presence being visible and felt in a literal way because he is coming to judge, that would be Armageddon.

The biggest discrepancy I can see, that you highlighted,  is that Jesus said he will be with his disciples till the end, which means throughout the time from 33 CE until now. Which means without a break. The fact that the Bible students started searching and "seeing" Jesus in the 20th Century does not necessarily mean that Jesus had  left off being with anybody (two or three) until that time. In fact we used to teach, and still do, that there have always been individuals who were anointed throughout the ages since the first century. I suppose this is because Jesus did not say he would take a break and come back at a later time. But then we do have those scriptures which point out that big gap with regard to true Christians....the wheat and the weeds, growing together, until the harvest, when true Christians as a group would be identified. When did that harvest start? WT says in the 20th century. 

I'm sorry, I know I have jumped around a lot, and repeated myself. I just put down my thoughts as they came to me and had no time to organize anything. I just copied and pasted. 

 

[Arauna]

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But the Bible makes very clear that the parousia has its effect on those who do not know God, too.

(2 Thessalonians 1:7-10) 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the reve

Yes - they felt the effect when the "disgusting thing" was right at the gates of Jerusalem and they had no food. agreed.  But they did not 'understand' the Parousia or the time to flee because they did not accept the new scriptures. The first time the Romans left when Vespasian went back to fight for his rule - ALL Christians (only Christians) understood the SIGN - the others DID NOT!!!

The scripture quoted in Thess above is not about the specific tribulation suffered in Jerusalem - no matter how much you try to give that meaning to the words.  One cannot throw all scripture that talks about tribulation together like in a hodgepodge without context.  The Christians were the only ones who knew how to look out for the signs to flee.   We are now ready to look out for similar SIGNS.

When the disgusting thing (UN) is in place we will know it and see it.  Will the rest of the world see what we see?  Will expect the UN to suddenly turn against all religions and then stand in the "holy place' for eminent destruction?  NO. They will be caught off guard just like those people who in their thousands went into Jerusalem for the final Passover in 70CE.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

@JW Insider(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) . . .we the living who survive to the presence [parousia] of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.

In your opinion, does this mean the Apostles are still 'asleep in death' and not yet raised up to heaven ?

And therefore Paul was here speaking (in Thessalonians)  about himself and the twelve being raised up first, and the scripture was written for the True Anointed now, as they are 'the living' ??? 

Or is there any possibility that Christ could anoint such ones in death,  as Moses, Abraham etc ?  Does a person have to be physically alive to receive the anointing ? 

Is there proof in the Bible that everyone that died before Christ has to get an Earthly resurrection ? 

 

[JW Insider]

On 7/25/2020 at 3:17 PM, Anna said:

Russell pointed to other dates before that, but close enough that it could be said that those Bible students expected the glorious manifestation of the Christ, albeit invisible, seen with spiritual eyes, in their lifetime.

Technically, Bible Students never expected an invisible return of Christ, either in 1874 or 1914. It was only around 1876 that Russell "learned" that Jesus had returned invisibly in 1874. Even in 1916 when Russell died, he and other Bible Students still thought Jesus had returned invisibly in 1874. So no one was expecting an invisible return in 1914 either. The official "parousia" date was still 1874 until about 1943. By then, of course, it was too late to "expect" Jesus in 1914.

On 7/25/2020 at 3:17 PM, Anna said:

but close enough that it could be said that those Bible students expected the glorious manifestation of the Christ, albeit invisible, seen with spiritual eyes, in their lifetime.

Close enough, but still not exactly, of course. In 1879, when the Watch Tower magazine was still pointing to 1881 as the date for their resurrection or "rapture," the change from a physical to a spiritual body would be necessarily "visible" in the sense that "Bible Students" ** believed that they would disappear from the earth, either leaving behind a "dead" physical body, or nothing. Thousands would see the glorious manifestation of the Christ by October 1881 with their new spiritual eyes (and spiritual bodies) in heaven. But this would also leave behind either thousands of dead bodies, or thousands of missing persons. Hard to keep something like that hidden.

[JW Insider]

On 7/25/2020 at 3:17 PM, Anna said:

You mentioned "(2 Timothy 4:8) From this time on, there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day, yet not to me only, but also to all those who have loved his manifestation".

So was this crown of righteousness given to all of Christs followers 'in that day' when Christ was made king in 33 CE?

Apparently this is Paul saying that the crown is reserved as a reward for "that day." In other words, in that future day, the "judgment day." I don't see how Paul, around 60 CE could say that a crown is now reserved to be given him as a reward on a day back in 33 CE.

[JW Insider]

5 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

In your opinion, does this mean the Apostles are still 'asleep in death' and not yet raised up to heaven ?

Yes. That's my opinion. (It's also stated as a possibility in the Watchtower, but I think most people missed it.) I noticed something funny when that article came out. I made it a point to bring it up with all the pioneers and young baptized persons in service. And this was in two distant parts of the country, as I spend time in my parents' congregation, too. It turns out you can ask most pioneers and 20-year-baptized Witnesses when was the first resurrection, and most will still say 1914/1918/1919. Then if you immediately follow up with "When was Paul resurrected?" they think it's a trick question and go back to the first century, often at his death in prison in the 60's CE. It throws off elders, too, because nobody usually hears the question put in practical terms like: "When was the Apostle Paul resurrected?"

I think people on this forum would give a more accurate sense of the Watchtower's teaching than most people in our congregation.

5 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

And therefore Paul was here speaking (in Thessalonians)  about himself and the twelve being raised up first, and the scripture was written for the True Anointed now, as they are 'the living' ??? 

I don't think Paul, while living, considered himself and the Twelve as those who are dead in union with Christ who would rise first. He thought of the possibility that he would live to the parousia (judgment/resurrection day) which could happen at any time, as a surprise, like a thief in the night. But since no one knew the day or hour, and it could be immediately after he wrote this, or thousands of years in the future, he also discussed what would happen if he happened to die before the parousia.

Paul thought all anointed were in union with Christ, even the "lowliest" of them:

(1 Corinthians 12:12-26) . . .For just as the body is one but has many members, and all the members of that body, although many, are one body, so too is the Christ. 13 For by one spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink one spirit. 14 For, indeed, the body is made up not of one member but of many. 15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am no part of the body,” that does not make it no part of the body. ...19 If they were all the same member, where would the body be? 20 But now they are many members, yet one body. 21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I do not need you,” or again, the head cannot say to the feet, “I do not need you.” 22 On the contrary, the members of the body that seem to be weaker are necessary, 23 and the parts of the body that we think to be less honorable we surround with greater honor, so our unseemly parts are treated with greater modesty, . . . Nevertheless, God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that had a lack, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but its members should have mutual concern for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all the other members suffer with it; or if a member is glorified, all the other members rejoice with it.

Christ was the firstfruits and all the other anointed who died (apostles, prophets, or "nobodies") would rise "first" just before those who survive to the time of parousia, who would then be changed together, at the same time, so they could all meet the Lord in the air, together.  

5 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Or is there any possibility that Christ could anoint such ones in death,  as Moses, Abraham etc ?  Does a person have to be physically alive to receive the anointing ? Is there proof in the Bible that everyone that died before Christ has to get an Earthly resurrection ? 

Of course. Anything is possible. Jehovah sees all these persons as alive, in the "book of life," and knows what their "heart" is still "speaking," although not physically alive:

(Revelation 6:9-11) . . .I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness they had given. 10 They shouted with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been.

Similar to how Abel's blood was crying out to Jehovah from the ground.

(Genesis 4:10) . . .At this He said: “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood is crying out to me from the ground.

We are not the judge of who ends up where, whether heaven or earth. Even those who are "sure" they are anointed and have been told that this means they will be in heaven instead of earth. I listened to a president of the Watch Tower Society in the final year of his life sometimes praying about how much he would miss the earth when he died. Jesus mentioned those who would be seated in the back and called up to the front by him. 

(Matthew 22:8-10) . . .The marriage feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore, go to the roads leading out of the city, and invite anyone you find to the marriage feast.’ 10 Accordingly, those slaves went out to the roads and gathered all they found, both wicked and good; and the room for the wedding ceremonies was filled with those dining.

(Matthew 25:10-12) . . .The virgins who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut. 11 Afterward, the rest of the virgins also came, saying, ‘Sir, Sir, open to us!’ 12 In answer he said, ‘I tell you the truth, I do not know you.’

(Luke 14:7-11) . . .He then told the invited men an illustration when he noticed how they were choosing the most prominent places for themselves. He said to them: 8 “When you are invited by someone to a marriage feast, do not recline in the most prominent place. Perhaps someone more distinguished than you may also have been invited. 9 Then the one who invited you both will come and say to you, ‘Let this man have your place.’ Then you will proceed with shame to take the lowest place. 10 But when you are invited, go and recline in the lowest place, so that when the man who invited you comes, he will say to you, ‘Friend, go on up higher.’ Then you will have honor in front of all your fellow guests. 11 For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.”

The first shall be last and the last first. So all we know is that Jehovah knows how to give good gifts to his children. He knows how to fulfill the desires of our hearts. His thoughts are higher than ours, and we do not know ourselves as well as Jehovah knows us.

You have often expressed doubts about your own place in Christianty, and you definitely don't think of yourself as a true anointed. But this does not mean that things won't change for you in the next 5 to 10 years ( 😉 ) and you will find yourself among the apostles in heaven or in the bosom position of Abraham or on earth looking at the newly descended New Jerusalem. There are plenty of things we can't say for sure, and there are intriguing scriptures that might provide some things to think about.

(Matthew 11:11, 12) . . .Truly I say to you, among those born of women, there has not been raised up anyone greater than John the Baptist, but a lesser person in the Kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press, and those pressing forward are seizing it.

(Hebrews 11:8-10) . . .By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place he was to receive as an inheritance; he went out, although not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as a foreigner in the land of the promise as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the very same promise. 10 For he was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is God.

(Hebrews 11:13-16) 13 In faith all of these died, although they did not receive the fulfillment of the promises; but they saw them from a distance and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land. 14 For those who speak in such a way make it evident that they are earnestly seeking a place of their own. 15 And yet, if they had kept remembering the place from which they had departed, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they are reaching out for a better place, that is, one belonging to heaven. Therefore, God is not ashamed of them, to be called on as their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

(Luke 16:22) 22 Now in course of time the beggar died and he was carried off by the angels to the bosom [position] of Abraham.. . .

(Acts 2:29-34) . . .Men, brothers, it is permissible to speak with freeness of speech to you about the family head David, that he died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. . . . 31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he forsaken in the Grave nor did his flesh see corruption. . . . . 34 For David did not ascend to the heavens,. . .

(Matthew 22:31, 32) 31 Regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, who said: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob’? He is the God, not of the dead, but of the living.”

(Matthew 17:3, 4) . . .And look! there appeared to them Moses and E·liʹjah conversing with him. 4 Then Peter said to Jesus: “Lord, it is fine for us to be here. If you wish, I will erect three tents here, one for you, one for Moses, and one for E·liʹjah.”

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

(I wrote a long comment and must have hit the wrong key and lost it all GRRRRRRR ) 

@JW Insider  I am more confused than ever now.  quote :-

'Yes. That's my opinion. (It's also stated as a possibility in the Watchtower, but I think most people missed it.) I noticed something funny when that article came out.'

I always though that the CCJW taught that the Apostles had been resurrected in the spirit long ago, possibly 1914 ?

Quote :-

I don't think Paul, while living, considered himself and the Twelve as those who are dead in union with Christ who would rise first. He thought of the possibility that he would live to the parousia (judgment/resurrection day) which could happen at any time, as a surprise, like a thief in the night.

So who did Paul think would 'rise first' ?  And was he writing just for his own time period then ? 

Christ was the firstfruits and all the other anointed who died (apostles, prophets, or "nobodies") would rise "first" just before those who survive to the time of parousia, 

 But who were these prophets or nobodies that would rise first as spirit persons ? 

I sure I was taught that only persons that died 'after' Christ was resurrected, would have the heavenly hope. And I'm sure I was taught that Abraham and Moses would definitely live here on Earth. 

You have often expressed doubts about your own place in Christianty, and you definitely don't think of yourself as a true anointed. But this does not mean that things won't change for you in the next 5 to 10 years ( 😉 ) and you will find yourself among the apostles in heaven or in the bosom position of Abraham or on earth looking at the newly descended New Jerusalem

I know that my sins are many and I'm not worthy of eternal life. And I definitely am not of the Anointed. 

Do you think this system will last another 5 to 10 years then ?  

I presume the 'bosom position of Abraham' is the common grave of mankind ? That is most likely where i will be before ten years have passed.