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Wasn't Jesus' supposed parousia/advent to be recognized only by those who had spiritual insight at the time?

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On 7/21/2020 at 11:25 AM, Anna said:

BUT, v. 23 talks about those belonging to Christ during his presence, as if his presence is at a different time to when he was resurrected. I suppose it all hangs on when Christ's presence began then (I know you have discussed this a number of time).

I think you referenced my opinion here. It's as follows:

We know that Jesus' invisible presence began in the first century, around 33 CE, because, as Jesus said:

(Matthew 18:20) For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.

(Matthew 28:20) . . .And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

So, Jesus is invisibly present with Christians always from his resurrection UNTIL the conclusion (Gk, synteleia). If the conclusion began in 1914, then Jesus was saying he would be invisibly present with us UNTIL 1914.

But this is not the "parousia" which can also be translated "presence" or "visitation." The scriptures tie the "parousia" to the "glorious manifestation" of Jesus when he is revealed, and "every eye shall see him" and a time of sudden, bright flashing like lightning. (Scripture references available upon request. 😊) Thus, for several years, the following comment was included in the NWT appendix, which has since been removed from the 2013 Revised NWT:

*** Rbi8 p. 1577 5B Christ’s Presence (Parousia) ***
Also, Bauer, p. 630, states that pa·rou·siʹa “became the official term for a visit of a person of high rank, esp[ecially] of kings and emperors visiting a province.”

These visitations of royal personages were a spectacle, often with trumpeted fanfare and with the official accompanied by throngs of persons brought with him and joined by spectators alongside the parade. To make sure that the "parousia" went smoothly, the local authorities could even raise a special tax on the local citizens to fix the roads to make straight paths for the king's chariots and horses and entourage on foot. That tax was minted on "parousia" coins, or later "adventus" coins, just as they were in Paul's day. (This can explain why the first Bible translations did not translate "parousia" as presence, while koine (NT) Greek was still a living language. They used a word that meant "advent" or "visitation" focusing, therefore, on the arrival/coming, not the presence that followed.)

It seems obvious that this "parousia" did not start in 1914.

On the issue of when Jesus sat down in his Kingdom, this also seems pretty obvious from the scriptures. Jesus is called "king of kings" in the first century.

(1 Timothy 6:13-15) ...I give you orders 14 to observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords,

(Revelation 1:5, 6) . . .and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “the firstborn from the dead,” and “the Ruler of the kings of the earth.” To him who loves us and who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood— 6 and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father. . .

Immediately after his resurrection, Jesus said that "ALL authority" had bee given to him in heaven and on earth.

(Matthew 28:18) . . .“All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.

Trying to minimize this kingdom authority in the first century appears to take away from the scriptures. In the scriptures, Jesus is already "crowned" in the first century.

(Hebrews 2:9) 9 But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels, now crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death,. . .

(Hebrews 1:3) . . .he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

He already has a scepter:

(Hebrews 1:8) 8 But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.

And "sitting at God's right hand" means the same as "rule as king" as said above:

(1 Corinthians 15:25) . . .For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet.

So with this in mind, I think that 1 Cor 15:23 makes sense:

(1 Corinthians 15:20-26) . . .But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. 21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.

In other words, Jesus has now been raised from the dead, and he is the first of those to be raised alive "in the Christ." The word "during" is only used here because the NWT translators believe we should focus on a long time period. Most often the word just means "at."

So, first Jesus, then those who belong to him "at his visitation," at his parousia, at his manifestation, at his coming, at his arrival, at his presence, at that day.

(2 Thessalonians 2:8, 9) 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence [parousia].

Also.

(2 Timothy 4:1) I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his manifestation and his Kingdom:

Paul does not ever speak about 1,000 years, specifically, but he makes it appear that there is a resurrection of those "in the Christ" and then the end, when he brings to nothing all government and authority and power. Paul appears to refer to only one single end that includes bringing to nothing all these other governments, and that this results in the end of death. Mission accomplished.

From Paul alone, then, we can't tell where a 1,000 year reign fits in. Paul speaks from the perspective of this particular kingdom of Christ accomplishing its purpose, and in some sense being handed back to God at the point where the final enemy (death) is fully subjected. 

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On 7/22/2020 at 11:33 AM, JW Insider said:

I think you referenced my opinion here. It's as follows:

We know that Jesus' invisible presence began in the first century, around 33 CE, because, as Jesus said:

(Matthew 18:20) For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.

(Matthew 28:20) . . .And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

So, Jesus is invisibly present with Christians always from his resurrection UNTIL the conclusion (Gk, synteleia). If the conclusion began in 1914, then Jesus was saying he would be invisibly present with us UNTIL 1914.

But this is not the "parousia" which can also be translated "presence" or "visitation." The scriptures tie the "parousia" to the "glorious manifestation" of Jesus when he is revealed, and "every eye shall see him" and a time of sudden, bright flashing like lightning. (Scripture references available upon request. 😊) Thus, for several years, the following comment was included in the NWT appendix, which has since been removed from the 2013 Revised NWT:

*** Rbi8 p. 1577 5B Christ’s Presence (Parousia) ***
Also, Bauer, p. 630, states that pa·rou·siʹa “became the official term for a visit of a person of high rank, esp[ecially] of kings and emperors visiting a province.”

These visitations or royal personages were a spectacle, often with trumpeted fanfare and with the official accompanied by throngs of persons brought with him and joined by spectators alongside the parade. To make sure that the "parousia" went smoothly, the local authorities could even raise a special tax on the local citizens to fix the roads to make straight paths for the king's chariots and horses and entourage on foot. That tax was minted on "parousia" coins, or later "adventus" coins, just as they were in Paul's day. (This can explain why the first Bible translations did not translate "parousia" as presence, while koine (NT) Greek was still a living language. They used a word that meant "advent" or "visitation" focusing, therefore, on the arrival/coming, not the presence that followed.)

It seems obvious that this "parousia" did not start in 1914.

On the issue of when Jesus sat down in his Kingdom, this also seems pretty obvious from the scriptures. Jesus is called "king of kings" in the first century.

(1 Timothy 6:13-15) ...I give you orders 14 to observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords,

(Revelation 1:5, 6) . . .and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “the firstborn from the dead,” and “the Ruler of the kings of the earth.” To him who loves us and who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood— 6 and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father. . .

Immediately after his resurrection, Jesus said that "ALL authority" had bee given to him in heaven and on earth.

(Matthew 28:18) . . .“All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.

Trying to minimize this kingdom authority in the first century appears to take away from the scriptures. In the scriptures, Jesus is already "crowned" in the first century.

(Hebrews 2:9) 9 But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels, now crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death,. . .

(Hebrews 1:3) . . .he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

He already has a scepter:

(Hebrews 1:8) 8 But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.

And "sitting at God's right hand" means the same as "rule as king" as said above:

(1 Corinthians 15:25) . . .For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet.

So with this in mind, I think that 1 Cor 15:23 makes sense:

(1 Corinthians 15:20-26) . . .But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. 21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.

In other words, Jesus has now been raised from the dead, and he is the first of those to be raised alive "in the Christ." The word "during" is only used here because the NWT translators believe we should focus on a long time period. Most often the word just means "at."

So, first Jesus, then those who belong to him "at his visitation," at his parousia, at his manifestation, at his coming, at his arrival, at his presence, at that day.

(2 Thessalonians 2:8, 9) 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence [parousia].

Also.

(2 Timothy 4:1) I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his manifestation and his Kingdom:

Paul does not ever speak about 1,000 years, specifically, but he makes it appear that there is a resurrection of those "in the Christ" and then the end, when he brings to nothing all government and authority and power. Paul appears to refer to only one single end that includes bringing to nothing all these other governments, and that this results in the end of death. Mission accomplished.

From Paul alone, then, we can't tell where a 1,000 year reign fits in. Paul speaks from the perspective of this particular kingdom of Christ accomplishing its purpose, and in some sense being handed back to God at the point where the final enemy (death) is fully subjected. 

I've only been checking in to read posts and for the last couple of days not even that. Although this is off topic here, I still want to pursue this discussion. I did make some notes when I read your post first, but that was several days ago. In any case, It's not everything I want to say, and I have probably missed some things because I haven't had the chance to really think about it properly and do relevant research (it's our CO visit). Anyway, here are some of the questions I have come up with.

I don't have any references right now,  but wasn't Jesus's supposed parousia/advent to be recognized only by those who had spiritual insight at the time? In other words it wasn't going to be a fanfare for everyone in the whole world. I know it wasn't originally expected in 1914, Russell pointed to other dates before that, but close enough that it could be said that those Bible students expected the glorious manifestation of the Christ, albeit invisible, seen with spiritual eyes, in their lifetime. And as time progressed it was decided that 1914 had been the year when this happened. (Although that there is a contradiction in itself because it was to be recognized and celebrated WHEN it happened not after the fact).

You mentioned "(2 Timothy 4:8) From this time on, there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day, yet not to me only, but also to all those who have loved his manifestation".

So was this crown of righteousness given to all of Christs followers 'in that day' when Christ was made king in 33 CE?
 

If I understand it correctly these are the two timeline options. I probably got it all wrong so please correct me.

Option A
1.Jesus became king when he was resurrected to heaven in 33 C E. He battled with Satan and threw him down to the earth.
2. At the same time his invisible presence began, because he was to be present (in "spirit) with his followers, overseeing the congregations.
3. Synteleia: he will arrive to judge the nations at Armageddon, "where every eye will see him".*

Option B
1. Jesus was made king over the anointed/ congregation in 33 CE.
2.  At the same time his invisible presence  began, because he was to be present (in "spirit) with his followers, overseeing the congregations.
3. Synteleia: In 1914 he became ruling King and battled with Satan and threw him down to the earth.
4. He will "arrive" to judge the nations at Armageddon when every eye will see him.

One problem I can see is that when he arrived/will arive (synteleia) it would be a joyous occasion, welcoming the king with fanfare etc. This though would only be a joyous occasion for those who were Jesus's subjects, for Jesus enemies it would mean their end. 

I haven't really written everything down that I wanted to because I am running out of time again.

I would like to have these terms clarified please:

Coming, arriving and presence.

Got to goooo! 🏃‍♀️

 

 

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22 hours ago, Anna said:

but wasn't Jesus's supposed parousia/advent to be recognized only by those who had spiritual insight at the time?

No. The parousia/advent was to be recognized by everyone, good and bad, righteous and unrighteous. There would be no mistaking it. It was not invisible.

When Jesus told the disciples that the buildings of the Temple would one day come tumbling down, the disciples immediately knew that this spectacular highly visible event was related to his parousia (visitation/advent/coming). They knew that the very term "parousia" was about the arrival of Jesus Christ in royal power, when the Kingdom of Israel was to be restored. We also know that the disciples had assumed that Jesus would somehow make this happen in his own lifetime and their own lifetime. When Jesus kept saying he would die first, they had trouble understanding.

So when they asked for a sign of his "parousia" and the "synteleia" [ending of things together] they were asking for some kind of advance warning so that they could find safety when their "world" came spectacularly crashing down around.

Jesus warned that some would be saying that Jesus had already arrived even though they couldn't see him at the moment. Jesus therefore warned against listening to anyone who might claim that an invisible parousia had already started. He said not to believe anyone who claimed he had returned but that no one could see him just yet, because the parousia would be like lightning, sudden and brightly visible from one horizon to the other horizon.

(Matthew 24:23-27) 23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25 Look! I have forewarned you. 26 Therefore, if people say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the presence [parousia] of the Son of man will be.

Around 1876, Nelson Barbour was telling Charles T. Russell and others: "Look! Here is the Christ." He thought he was going to come visibly like a flash of lightning, but now he believed Jesus was here but invisible. "He is present, but you can't see him. He is here, since October 1874, but effectively hidden in the inner rooms. Barbour and his friends were so anxious to be right about their prediction that Christ would arrive in October 1874, that they simply declared that he was here, even though he hadn't shown up.

(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) . . .For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence [parousia] of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward [then] we the living who are surviving will, together with them [at the same time], be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air;. . .

The LEB translation, with full support of the Greek, translates like this:

(1 Thess 4:17, LEB) Then we who are alive, who remain, will be snatched away at the same time together with them in the clouds for a meeting with the Lord in the air, and thus we will be together with the Lord always.

How could the "parousia" not be a visible spectacular event if persons from earth will be snatched away from earth to heaven at the same time as the resurrection to heaven?

The scriptures also tie the parousia directly to "the Lord's Day," "Judgment Day" as it were. There is no scripture that implies the parousia is separate from the "Lord's day," or "day of Jehovah" or "day of Christ." The separation is artificial so that the idea of an invisible parousia can be made to work.

Note in the very next verses after the mention of the parousia in 4:15-17 that Thessalonians goes immediately into stating:

(1 Thessalonians 5:1-3) . . .Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know very well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night. 3 Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them, just like birth pains on a pregnant woman, and they will by no means escape.

So the parousia is to be seen by those who will suffer sudden destruction, not just those who see with spiritual insight. Paul says the same thing in the second letter:

(2 Thessalonians 2:1, 2) . . .However, brothers, concerning the presence [parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you 2 not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.

Notice that it is the parousia that is tied to "our being gathered together to him." But just as Jesus warned, we shouldn't be shaken or deceived by anyone making claims about this parousia as if it is already here, before it is obvious:

(2 Thessalonians 2:8) 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence [parousia].

Not just those with spiritual insight but the lawless one too is revealed by the manifestation of his parousia. It can't be invisible if it is going to be obvious to those without spiritual insight.

(Revelation 1:7) . . .Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. . . .

(1 Timothy 6:14) . . .observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ,

(2 Timothy 4:1) 4 I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his manifestation and his Kingdom:

(2 Timothy 4:8) 8 From this time on, there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day, yet not to me only, but also to all those who have loved his manifestation.

Translating the "active participle" as if only in the past, can be misleading. The Greek can just as well refer to his future manifestation and can be translated as follows, which is probably better considering the immediate context:

(2 Timothy 4:8, NET) Finally the crown of righteousness is reserved for me. The Lord, the righteous Judge, will award it to me in that day - and not to me only, but also to all who have set their affection on his appearing.

(Titus 2:12, 13) . . .It trains us to reject ungodliness and worldly desires and to live with soundness of mind and righteousness and godly devotion amid this present system of things, 13 while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of our Savior, Jesus Christ,

(1 Corinthians 1:7, 8 ) . . .while you are eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ. 8 He will also make you firm to the end so that you may be open to no accusation in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

(1 Peter 1:7) . . .in order that the tested quality of your faith, of much greater value than gold that perishes despite its being tested by fire, may be found a cause for praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

(1 Peter 4:13) . . .so that you may rejoice and be overjoyed also during [at] the revelation of his glory.

(2 Thessalonians 1:7-2:1) . . .will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, . . .  10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, . . . 2 1 However, brothers, concerning the presence [parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you 2 not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.

(I know we already covered 2 Thess 2:1-2, but it is good to see it in context to more easily see that the parousia, revelation of the Lord Jesus, day of Jehovah, the time when he comes to be glorified, that day, etc., are all the same as the time of the visible revelation/manifestation.)

Also, our current parousia doctrine creates several minor contradictions. For example:

(James 5:7) . . .Be patient then, brothers, until the presence [parousia] of the Lord. Look! The farmer keeps waiting for the precious fruit of the earth, exercising patience over it until the early rain and the late rain arrive.

If the parousia had started in 1914, why would we only show patience UNTIL 1914. The same goes for Jesus saying he would be with us UNTIL the "synteleia." (Matt 28:20).  For example, Rutherford even claimed for many years that the holy spirit was no longer in operation with Rutherford or with the organization, because Jesus had already arrived by 1918, and the holy spirit was only there to fill in the gap until Jesus arrived.

The Bible never speaks of an "invisible" parousia, except to warn us against the idea.

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2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The parousia/advent was to be recognized by everyone, good and bad, righteous and unrighteous. There would be no mistaking it. It was not invisible.

I do not agree with this statement.  Only the Christians knew about this prophecy. The Pharisees did not accept Jesus and hence his warnings about the Parousia was not noticed by them. Neither did the Romans know about the prophecy.  Enemies of Jehovah contributed to the fulfillment of the Parousia in Jesus' generation but they did not know about the prophecy...… hence it was not unmistakable to them.  To the Christians when the Romans (disgusting thing) stood in the holy place they recognized it and fled.  Those who did not immediately obey were stuck in the city.  Those of weak faith would have been stuck like all the other Jews that actually all were streaming into Jerusalem for the Passover.  There is no way they saw all the signs otherwise they would not have come into the city for the Passover. The only thing I do agree with is that it was not invisible - the romans coming into the city - otherwise they would not recognize the sign...…  

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9 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Only the Christians knew about this prophecy.

True. But the Bible makes very clear that the parousia has its effect on those who do not know God, too.

(2 Thessalonians 1:7-10) 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith. . .

The only way around this, is to claim something that the Bible never claims: that the "parousia" is different from "that day," "the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven" and "the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones."

The Bible speaks of only one time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones" and that day is sometimes called the parousia.

Notice the parousia tied to the time he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones here:

(2 Thessalonians 2:1) . . .However, brothers, concerning the presence [parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him,. . .

Notice the parousia tied to the time he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones here:

(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) . . .we the living who survive to the presence [parousia] of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.

Notice the parousia tied to the time he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones here:

(Matthew 24:27-37) . . .so the presence [parousia] of the Son of man will be. . . .30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity. . . . 36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence [parousia] of the Son of man will be.

(Mark 13:26, 27) 26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he will send out the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity.

Notice the parousia tied to the time he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones here:

(1 Thessalonians 3:13) 13 so that he may make your hearts firm, blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the presence [parousia] of our Lord Jesus with all his holy ones.

Therefore, the scriptures about the parousia and the day of Jehovah in the previous post still stand, too. The Bible makes no separation of the parousia from the revelation/manifestation of Jesus Christ in that day.

That day, that parousia, comes upon the righteous as well as the unrighteous at the same time:

(Luke 17:26-30) 26 Moreover, just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be in the days of the Son of man: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage until that day when Noah entered into the ark, and the Flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise, just as it occurred in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building. 29 But on the day that Lot went out of Sodʹom, it rained fire and sulfur from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 It will be the same on that day when the Son of man is revealed.

(Matthew 24:37, 38) 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence [parousia] of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,

Notice that the parousia is not paralleled with the days of Noah, but "that day" when Noah entered into the ark. Notice that the day the Son of man is revealed is not paralleled with the days of Lot, but "on the day" that Lot went out of Sodom.

The Bible never separates the revelation/manifestation from the parousia. In fact, the Bible uses the expression "manifestation of his parousia."

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I am glad this has moved to its own topic. I have not read the rest of the comments yet (Arauna) only the first one by JWI.

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

(Matthew 24:23-27) 23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25 Look! I have forewarned you. 26 Therefore, if people say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the presence [parousia] of the Son of man will be.

I have always taken this scripture to mean that there will be people pointing to visible signs that Jesus is here. Like that he is physically in one particular spot, in the wilderness, or in an inner room...and that there will be many such people, false Christs (and there have been). So in contrast, and in that context, when v. 27 says that his presence will be from one end of the globe to the other, suggests that it could not be a literal physical presence of a person, since no one can be in more that one place at the same time. So therefor we should not be looking for Christ in one particular spot, in the wilderness or somewhere else. But we will see his "manifestation" from one end of the earth to the other. I know this is also WT interpretation, but it makes sense to me. So do you suggest that Christ will travel and greet every single person? (every eye will see him).

So there are two types of "appearances" :

The first is Christ's presence as the head of the congregation starting after his resurrection in 33 C E. (The WT agrees with that).
The second one is his appearance (manifestation) when he comes to take the remnant to heaven and judge, and every eye will see him because it will be the battle of Armageddon. (The WT agrees with that too). But the problem seems that with WT,  there are three appearances, 1.Christ's presence with the congregation after his resurrection in 33 CE, then interrupted with the great apostasy, then 2. restarted again in the time of the end (beginning 1914) and then 3. the manifestation where every eye will see him (Armageddon).
So the problem is obviously the  "interruption" part. Where is WT's scriptural basis for that? Although Jesus does not mention an interruption regarding his  presence with his disciples, he says he will be with them till the end, and wherever two or three are gathered in his name he will be with them, but what about the apostasy?  Are there  scriptures that the WT mentions in support of Christ no longer being present with two or three gathered in his name starting after the apostasy all the way to the present time; starting back up again in the 20th century? (I am sorry, I would look it all up but I don't have the time right now, you probably already know which scriptures WT uses to support that idea).

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

How could the "parousia" not be a visible spectacular event if persons from earth will be snatched away from earth to heaven at the same time as the resurrection to heaven?

The visual this gives me is something that I would rather not imagine as it reminds me of creepy scenes in anecdotal videos of people levitating and rising into the sky like balloons. I just cannot imagine seeing Br. Jackson in his suit and tie, (or would he be casual), ascending into the clouds.  Since flesh and blood cannot enter into the heavens, and those people will be transformed into spirits, that are invisible, how could then this whole scenario be visible? Of course I definitely agree with Armageddon being very visible, but not everyone could see the literal Jesus at the same time. That would be a physically impossibility, but all will know it is Jesus acting. Isn't that what is meant by every eye will see him?

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The scriptures also tie the parousia directly to "the Lord's Day," "Judgment Day" as it were. There is no scripture that implies the parousia is separate from the "Lord's day," or "day of Jehovah" or "day of Christ." The separation is artificial so that the idea of an invisible parousia can be made to work.

So obviously the  presence of Christ with his disciples from 33 CE onward is different from the presence at the end, since that presence will be the Judgement day/lords day/day of Jehovah etc. basically Armageddon. And this presence will be a literal manifestation as is mentioned by 2 Thessalonians 2:8  "Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence [parousia]".

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

So the parousia is to be seen by those who will suffer sudden destruction, not just those who see with spiritual insight.

Yes, I see that the parousia is tied in with not only being gathered to him (I am assuming that means in heaven, therefore the "rapture") but also to the day of Jehovah/Judgement day/Lords day/ Armageddon when those who suffer destruction will "see him" in the sense that they will know it is Jesus who is destroying the wicked.

 

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The Bible never speaks of an "invisible" parousia, except to warn us against the idea

So the WT sees it that Jesus' invisible  presence began in 1914, but we could also say it began in 33 CE because Jesus said he would be (invisibly) present with his followers right up to the end. That bit seems clear enough. In both versions his presence is associated with him becoming King (both 1914 or 33 CE).

Now to his presence being visible and felt in a literal way because he is coming to judge, that would be Armageddon.

The biggest discrepancy I can see, that you highlighted,  is that Jesus said he will be with his disciples till the end, which means throughout the time from 33 CE until now. Which means without a break. The fact that the Bible students started searching and "seeing" Jesus in the 20th Century does not necessarily mean that Jesus had  left off being with anybody (two or three) until that time. In fact we used to teach, and still do, that there have always been individuals who were anointed throughout the ages since the first century. I suppose this is because Jesus did not say he would take a break and come back at a later time. But then we do have those scriptures which point out that big gap with regard to true Christians....the wheat and the weeds, growing together, until the harvest, when true Christians as a group would be identified. When did that harvest start? WT says in the 20th century. 

I'm sorry, I know I have jumped around a lot, and repeated myself. I just put down my thoughts as they came to me and had no time to organize anything. I just copied and pasted. 

 

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9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But the Bible makes very clear that the parousia has its effect on those who do not know God, too.

(2 Thessalonians 1:7-10) 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the reve

Yes - they felt the effect when the "disgusting thing" was right at the gates of Jerusalem and they had no food. agreed.  But they did not 'understand' the Parousia or the time to flee because they did not accept the new scriptures. The first time the Romans left when Vespasian went back to fight for his rule - ALL Christians (only Christians) understood the SIGN - the others DID NOT!!!

The scripture quoted in Thess above is not about the specific tribulation suffered in Jerusalem - no matter how much you try to give that meaning to the words.  One cannot throw all scripture that talks about tribulation together like in a hodgepodge without context.  The Christians were the only ones who knew how to look out for the signs to flee.   We are now ready to look out for similar SIGNS.

When the disgusting thing (UN) is in place we will know it and see it.  Will the rest of the world see what we see?  Will expect the UN to suddenly turn against all religions and then stand in the "holy place' for eminent destruction?  NO. They will be caught off guard just like those people who in their thousands went into Jerusalem for the final Passover in 70CE.

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@JW Insider(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) . . .we the living who survive to the presence [parousia] of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.

In your opinion, does this mean the Apostles are still 'asleep in death' and not yet raised up to heaven ?

And therefore Paul was here speaking (in Thessalonians)  about himself and the twelve being raised up first, and the scripture was written for the True Anointed now, as they are 'the living' ??? 

Or is there any possibility that Christ could anoint such ones in death,  as Moses, Abraham etc ?  Does a person have to be physically alive to receive the anointing ? 

Is there proof in the Bible that everyone that died before Christ has to get an Earthly resurrection ? 

 

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On 7/25/2020 at 3:17 PM, Anna said:

Russell pointed to other dates before that, but close enough that it could be said that those Bible students expected the glorious manifestation of the Christ, albeit invisible, seen with spiritual eyes, in their lifetime.

Technically, Bible Students never expected an invisible return of Christ, either in 1874 or 1914. It was only around 1876 that Russell "learned" that Jesus had returned invisibly in 1874. Even in 1916 when Russell died, he and other Bible Students still thought Jesus had returned invisibly in 1874. So no one was expecting an invisible return in 1914 either. The official "parousia" date was still 1874 until about 1943. By then, of course, it was too late to "expect" Jesus in 1914.

On 7/25/2020 at 3:17 PM, Anna said:

but close enough that it could be said that those Bible students expected the glorious manifestation of the Christ, albeit invisible, seen with spiritual eyes, in their lifetime.

Close enough, but still not exactly, of course. In 1879, when the Watch Tower magazine was still pointing to 1881 as the date for their resurrection or "rapture," the change from a physical to a spiritual body would be necessarily "visible" in the sense that "Bible Students" ** believed that they would disappear from the earth, either leaving behind a "dead" physical body, or nothing. Thousands would see the glorious manifestation of the Christ by October 1881 with their new spiritual eyes (and spiritual bodies) in heaven. But this would also leave behind either thousands of dead bodies, or thousands of missing persons. Hard to keep something like that hidden.

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On 7/25/2020 at 3:17 PM, Anna said:

You mentioned "(2 Timothy 4:8) From this time on, there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day, yet not to me only, but also to all those who have loved his manifestation".

So was this crown of righteousness given to all of Christs followers 'in that day' when Christ was made king in 33 CE?

Apparently this is Paul saying that the crown is reserved as a reward for "that day." In other words, in that future day, the "judgment day." I don't see how Paul, around 60 CE could say that a crown is now reserved to be given him as a reward on a day back in 33 CE.

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5 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

In your opinion, does this mean the Apostles are still 'asleep in death' and not yet raised up to heaven ?

Yes. That's my opinion. (It's also stated as a possibility in the Watchtower, but I think most people missed it.) I noticed something funny when that article came out. I made it a point to bring it up with all the pioneers and young baptized persons in service. And this was in two distant parts of the country, as I spend time in my parents' congregation, too. It turns out you can ask most pioneers and 20-year-baptized Witnesses when was the first resurrection, and most will still say 1914/1918/1919. Then if you immediately follow up with "When was Paul resurrected?" they think it's a trick question and go back to the first century, often at his death in prison in the 60's CE. It throws off elders, too, because nobody usually hears the question put in practical terms like: "When was the Apostle Paul resurrected?"

I think people on this forum would give a more accurate sense of the Watchtower's teaching than most people in our congregation.

5 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

And therefore Paul was here speaking (in Thessalonians)  about himself and the twelve being raised up first, and the scripture was written for the True Anointed now, as they are 'the living' ??? 

I don't think Paul, while living, considered himself and the Twelve as those who are dead in union with Christ who would rise first. He thought of the possibility that he would live to the parousia (judgment/resurrection day) which could happen at any time, as a surprise, like a thief in the night. But since no one knew the day or hour, and it could be immediately after he wrote this, or thousands of years in the future, he also discussed what would happen if he happened to die before the parousia.

Paul thought all anointed were in union with Christ, even the "lowliest" of them:

(1 Corinthians 12:12-26) . . .For just as the body is one but has many members, and all the members of that body, although many, are one body, so too is the Christ. 13 For by one spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink one spirit. 14 For, indeed, the body is made up not of one member but of many. 15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am no part of the body,” that does not make it no part of the body. ...19 If they were all the same member, where would the body be? 20 But now they are many members, yet one body. 21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I do not need you,” or again, the head cannot say to the feet, “I do not need you.” 22 On the contrary, the members of the body that seem to be weaker are necessary, 23 and the parts of the body that we think to be less honorable we surround with greater honor, so our unseemly parts are treated with greater modesty, . . . Nevertheless, God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that had a lack, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but its members should have mutual concern for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all the other members suffer with it; or if a member is glorified, all the other members rejoice with it.

Christ was the firstfruits and all the other anointed who died (apostles, prophets, or "nobodies") would rise "first" just before those who survive to the time of parousia, who would then be changed together, at the same time, so they could all meet the Lord in the air, together.  

5 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Or is there any possibility that Christ could anoint such ones in death,  as Moses, Abraham etc ?  Does a person have to be physically alive to receive the anointing ? Is there proof in the Bible that everyone that died before Christ has to get an Earthly resurrection ? 

Of course. Anything is possible. Jehovah sees all these persons as alive, in the "book of life," and knows what their "heart" is still "speaking," although not physically alive:

(Revelation 6:9-11) . . .I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness they had given. 10 They shouted with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been.

Similar to how Abel's blood was crying out to Jehovah from the ground.

(Genesis 4:10) . . .At this He said: “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood is crying out to me from the ground.

We are not the judge of who ends up where, whether heaven or earth. Even those who are "sure" they are anointed and have been told that this means they will be in heaven instead of earth. I listened to a president of the Watch Tower Society in the final year of his life sometimes praying about how much he would miss the earth when he died. Jesus mentioned those who would be seated in the back and called up to the front by him. 

(Matthew 22:8-10) . . .The marriage feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore, go to the roads leading out of the city, and invite anyone you find to the marriage feast.’ 10 Accordingly, those slaves went out to the roads and gathered all they found, both wicked and good; and the room for the wedding ceremonies was filled with those dining.

(Matthew 25:10-12) . . .The virgins who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut. 11 Afterward, the rest of the virgins also came, saying, ‘Sir, Sir, open to us!’ 12 In answer he said, ‘I tell you the truth, I do not know you.’

(Luke 14:7-11) . . .He then told the invited men an illustration when he noticed how they were choosing the most prominent places for themselves. He said to them: 8 “When you are invited by someone to a marriage feast, do not recline in the most prominent place. Perhaps someone more distinguished than you may also have been invited. 9 Then the one who invited you both will come and say to you, ‘Let this man have your place.’ Then you will proceed with shame to take the lowest place. 10 But when you are invited, go and recline in the lowest place, so that when the man who invited you comes, he will say to you, ‘Friend, go on up higher.’ Then you will have honor in front of all your fellow guests. 11 For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.”

The first shall be last and the last first. So all we know is that Jehovah knows how to give good gifts to his children. He knows how to fulfill the desires of our hearts. His thoughts are higher than ours, and we do not know ourselves as well as Jehovah knows us.

You have often expressed doubts about your own place in Christianty, and you definitely don't think of yourself as a true anointed. But this does not mean that things won't change for you in the next 5 to 10 years ( 😉 ) and you will find yourself among the apostles in heaven or in the bosom position of Abraham or on earth looking at the newly descended New Jerusalem. There are plenty of things we can't say for sure, and there are intriguing scriptures that might provide some things to think about.

(Matthew 11:11, 12) . . .Truly I say to you, among those born of women, there has not been raised up anyone greater than John the Baptist, but a lesser person in the Kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press, and those pressing forward are seizing it.

(Hebrews 11:8-10) . . .By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place he was to receive as an inheritance; he went out, although not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as a foreigner in the land of the promise as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the very same promise. 10 For he was awaiting the city having real foundations, whose designer and builder is God.

(Hebrews 11:13-16) 13 In faith all of these died, although they did not receive the fulfillment of the promises; but they saw them from a distance and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land. 14 For those who speak in such a way make it evident that they are earnestly seeking a place of their own. 15 And yet, if they had kept remembering the place from which they had departed, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they are reaching out for a better place, that is, one belonging to heaven. Therefore, God is not ashamed of them, to be called on as their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

(Luke 16:22) 22 Now in course of time the beggar died and he was carried off by the angels to the bosom [position] of Abraham.. . .

(Acts 2:29-34) . . .Men, brothers, it is permissible to speak with freeness of speech to you about the family head David, that he died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. . . . 31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he forsaken in the Grave nor did his flesh see corruption. . . . . 34 For David did not ascend to the heavens,. . .

(Matthew 22:31, 32) 31 Regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, who said: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob’? He is the God, not of the dead, but of the living.”

(Matthew 17:3, 4) . . .And look! there appeared to them Moses and E·liʹjah conversing with him. 4 Then Peter said to Jesus: “Lord, it is fine for us to be here. If you wish, I will erect three tents here, one for you, one for Moses, and one for E·liʹjah.”

 

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(I wrote a long comment and must have hit the wrong key and lost it all GRRRRRRR ) 

@JW Insider  I am more confused than ever now.  quote :-

'Yes. That's my opinion. (It's also stated as a possibility in the Watchtower, but I think most people missed it.) I noticed something funny when that article came out.'

I always though that the CCJW taught that the Apostles had been resurrected in the spirit long ago, possibly 1914 ?

Quote :-

I don't think Paul, while living, considered himself and the Twelve as those who are dead in union with Christ who would rise first. He thought of the possibility that he would live to the parousia (judgment/resurrection day) which could happen at any time, as a surprise, like a thief in the night.

So who did Paul think would 'rise first' ?  And was he writing just for his own time period then ? 

Christ was the firstfruits and all the other anointed who died (apostles, prophets, or "nobodies") would rise "first" just before those who survive to the time of parousia, 

 But who were these prophets or nobodies that would rise first as spirit persons ? 

I sure I was taught that only persons that died 'after' Christ was resurrected, would have the heavenly hope. And I'm sure I was taught that Abraham and Moses would definitely live here on Earth. 

You have often expressed doubts about your own place in Christianty, and you definitely don't think of yourself as a true anointed. But this does not mean that things won't change for you in the next 5 to 10 years ( 😉 ) and you will find yourself among the apostles in heaven or in the bosom position of Abraham or on earth looking at the newly descended New Jerusalem

I know that my sins are many and I'm not worthy of eternal life. And I definitely am not of the Anointed. 

Do you think this system will last another 5 to 10 years then ?  

I presume the 'bosom position of Abraham' is the common grave of mankind ? That is most likely where i will be before ten years have passed. 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

I always thought that the CCJW taught that the Apostles had been resurrected in the spirit long ago, possibly 1914 ?

If you look up the phrase "interesting possibiity" in the Watchtower Library you will also find this statement:

*** w07 1/1 p. 28 par. 12 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
Could it, then, be reasoned that since Jesus was enthroned in the fall of 1914, the resurrection of his faithful anointed followers began three and a half years later, in the spring of 1918? That is an interesting possibility. Although this cannot be directly confirmed in the Bible, it is not out of harmony with other scriptures that indicate that the first resurrection got under way soon after Christ’s presence began.

Before and after the statement above, the article also said:

*** w07 1/1 p. 27 par. 9 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
Reasonably, then, anointed ones who die before Armageddon are resurrected sometime between 1914 and Armageddon.

*** w07 1/1 p. 30 par. 18 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
God’s Word does not disclose a precise date for the first resurrection, . . . .

The preference in the article was for a date between 1914 and 1935, but no definitive reason could be given. Just "interesting possibilities."

11 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

So who did Paul think would 'rise first' ?  And was he writing just for his own time period then ? 

He was writing that the anointed dead would rise first at the parousia. At the time, all Christians were considered either anointed or fleshly/unspiritual. He was writing because some were concerned that the parousia might be so close, that it would be a shame if some Christians died or were killed, because then they might then miss this most spectacular event in all of history. So Paul said to "comfort one another" with these words that showed that no one would miss anything, because when the parousia arrives, the dead [anointed] will rise first, and then those who were still alive at the parousia would be instantly changed together at the same time. The timing would be so close that it would be as if all of them were meeting together "mid-air" to be with Christ forever from that point on. Paul was just trying to make it clear that no one would miss a thing.

20 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

 But who were these prophets or nobodies that would rise first as spirit persons ? 

100% of the anointed dead who died before the parousia begins. From about 33CE on up to the time of the parousia.

(I used the term apostles, prophets and nobodies, because of the context of 1 Cor 12, where all these different types of persons make up the anointed "body" of Christ.)

24 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

I sure I was taught that only persons that died 'after' Christ was resurrected, would have the heavenly hope. And I'm sure I was taught that Abraham and Moses would definitely live here on Earth. 

Same here. Seems correct to me. But we aren't the ones who make that ultimate selection. And the scriptures make a reasonable case for that, but not definitive.

26 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

I know that my sins are many and I'm not worthy of eternal life. And I definitely am not of the Anointed.

I wasn't talking about what you are worthy of. No human is worthy. And that goes for "anointed" or even "true anointed" as you call them. No "true anointed" is worthy; it is by undeserved kindness they are called.

28 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Do you think this system will last another 5 to 10 years then ?  

Anything can happen. In 10 minutes or in 10 centuries. We don't have to wait until certain signs line up and make it seem inevitable. Doing this can make one desensitized when and if those particular signs clear up, and we then think we have to wait for something more specific, or something worse. People look at Covid-19 and say: "This is it!" or at least that this must be a part of the "end-time" process. It could very well be. But we shouldn't be looking at any sign that way. We know our deliverance is getting near (and nearer all the time). If Covid-19 clears up in a couple years and people start saying that things look peaceful and secure again, it could just as easily happen in the middle of that more peaceful time. It could also easily happen in the middle of a pandemic.

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@JW Insider Thank you but we come back to this 1914 again.

*** w07 1/1 p. 28 par. 12 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
Could it, then, be reasoned that since Jesus was enthroned in the fall of 1914,  ******* 

 w07 1/1 p. 27 par. 9 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
Reasonably, then, anointed ones who die before Armageddon are resurrected sometime between 1914 and Armageddon.

( But I thought you said they are ALL resurrected and transformed at the same time. )

But, Quote @Anna

 

So there are two types of "appearances" :

The first is Christ's presence as the head of the congregation starting after his resurrection in 33 C E. (The WT agrees with that).
The second one is his appearance (manifestation) when he comes to take the remnant to heaven and judge, and every eye will see him because it will be the battle of Armageddon. (The WT agrees with that too). But the problem seems that with WT,  there are three appearances, 1.Christ's presence with the congregation after his resurrection in 33 CE, then interrupted with the great apostasy, then 2. restarted again in the time of the end (beginning 1914) and then 3. the manifestation where every eye will see him (Armageddon).

The plot thickens. 

*** w07 1/1 p. 28 par. 12 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
Could it, then, be reasoned that since Jesus was enthroned in the fall of 1914, the resurrection of his faithful anointed followers began three and a half years later, in the spring of 1918? That is an interesting possibility. Although this cannot be directly confirmed in the Bible, it is not out of harmony with other scriptures that indicate that the first resurrection got under way soon after Christ’s presence began.

But is it out of harmony with other scriptures ? As Anna mentions above it makes three types of appearances not two. 

What Bible evidence is there that 'proves' Jesus was 'enthroned' in 1914 ? And was this a second 'appearance' ?  If so then it seems Anna has a point about there being three appearances. 

My mind seriously boggles. At 70 years old it's all too much for me. 

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8 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

So Paul said to "comfort one another" with these words that showed that no one would miss anything, because when the parousia arrives, the dead [anointed] will rise first, and then those who were still alive at the parousia would be instantly changed together at the same time. The timing would be so close that it would be as if all of them were meeting together "mid-air" to be with Christ forever from that point on. Paul was just trying to make it clear that no one would miss a thing.

All these decades in the Organization .... it has been constantly taught that the anointed began to be resurrected from 1914. And this as if they were all resurrected at the same time, and those who died after 1914 were also resurrected to life in heaven in moment of death. 

What was strange is Paul's words about "instantly change". No one in WTJWorg was never saw nothing like that from 1914 till today. Well, what really happened in 1914? Or any year before or after (Russell', Rutherford' etc. guessing)?

 

Because, no JW anointed was not affected by the "change", which should be "seen" on the living anointed, it can easily be concluded that we do not live in time of parousia or in time of "parousia's interpretations".

Once again, WT doctrines and interpretations are so problematic.

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On 7/25/2020 at 3:17 PM, Anna said:

Option A 1.Jesus became king when he was resurrected to heaven in 33 C E. He battled with Satan and threw him down to the earth. 2. At the same time his invisible presence began, because he was to be present (in "spirit) with his followers, overseeing the congregations. 3. Synteleia: he will arrive to judge the nations at Armageddon, "where every eye will see him".*

Yes. It looks like this matches up best with the scriptures. I think that "synteleia" and "parousia" refer to the same time period. Synteleia can refer to the end of many things together, similar to a phrase that Peter used when he said "the end of all things has drawn close." Note the plural:

(1 Peter 4:7) . . .But the end of all things has drawn close.. . .

(1 Corinthians 10:11) . . .a warning to us upon whom the ends of the systems of things have come.

We sometimes think of this as only referring to an end of a time period, but the word can refer more to a "destruction" of things that brings them to their end. Therefore the phrase in Matthew 24:3 could even be stated as:

What can you give us as an advance warning sign before this "Visitation" and this destructive "End of the Age?"

On 7/25/2020 at 3:17 PM, Anna said:

Option B 1. Jesus was made king over the anointed/ congregation in 33 CE. 2.  At the same time his invisible presence  began, because he was to be present (in "spirit) with his followers, overseeing the congregations. 3. Synteleia: In 1914 he became ruling King and battled with Satan and threw him down to the earth. 4. He will "arrive" to judge the nations at Armageddon when every eye will see him.

This is the current WT view on it, of course. (I have scrunched up your comment to fit in the re-quote box.)

There are a few issues with it, which is why it comes up. #1 is right of course, but it ignores the fact that this is only the first step in gaining proper subjects for a "Kingdom." The scriptures make so much of the fact that Jesus has been given ALL AUTHORITY at his resurrection. He has conquered something that makes him above all other powers in the Universe except Jehovah. He is called king of kings after 33 CE. So why are we so reluctant to give Jesus credit for what he has accomplished? Note how the WT view is the REVERSE of the Bible's view here:

(Ephesians 1:19-22) . . .It is according to the operation of the mightiness of his strength, 20 which he exercised toward Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named, not only in this system of things but also in that to come. 22 He also subjected all things under his feet and made him head over all things with regard to the congregation,

In the WT view, Jesus is made head over all things with regard to the congregation for now, but by 1914 he will also come into his Kingdom authority with regards to every government [kingdom], authority and power and lordship.

And as you know, Ephesians 1 is only one example of this. There are several others. Including 1 Timothy 6:16 already calling Jesus the "king of kings" in the first century. The Bible writers honored Jesus new position of authority over all governments of the earth, and all powers and lorships in heaven, too!

*** it-1 p. 1136 Honor ***
Since it was Jehovah God who highly exalted his Son, all who refuse to acknowledge Jesus Christ as the immortal King of kings and Lord of lords dishonor the Father. Because of who he is and what he has accomplished, the Son deserves honor and loyal support. (Joh 5:23; 1Ti 6:15, 16; Re 5:11-13)

But,can you imagine the Watchtower ever highlighting the fact that Jesus was "king of kings" in the first century? Instead we get statements like the following:

*** w94 5/1 p. 17 par. 9 Kingdom Proclaimers Active in All the Earth ***
At the second Cedar Point convention, in 1922, Brother Rutherford highlighted the fact that at the end of the Gentile Times, in 1914, ‘the King of glory had taken unto himself his great power and had begun to reign.’ Next, he put the issue squarely to his audience, saying: “Do you believe that the King of glory has begun his reign? Then back to the field, O ye sons of the most high God! . . . Herald the message far and wide. The world must know that Jehovah is God and that Jesus Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords. This is the day of all days. Behold, the King reigns! You are his publicity agents.”

Yes, in 1922, Rutherford began to speak of Jesus taking his power in 1914 as King, and cleansing the lips of the temple class, and it appeared that this was the first time Rutheford began to move the official date of Christ's reign from 1878. And even quotes such as these must forget that the actual words at the assembly included statements like:

“In 1878 God’s favor was withdrawn from the nominal systems. From that time on Brother Russell and the brethren who supported him went throughout the land . . . . Do you believe it? Do you believe that the King of glory is present, and has been since 1874? Do you believe that during that time he has conducted his harvest work? Do you believe that he has had during that time a faithful and wise servant [Russell] through whom he directed his work and the feeding of the household of faith? Do you believe that the Lord is now in his temple, judging the nations of earth? Do you believe that the King of glory has begun his reign?

“Then back to the field, O ye sons of the most high God! Gird on your armor! Be sober, be vigilant, be active, be brave. Be faithful and true witnesses for the Lord. Go forward in the fight until every vestige of Babylon lies desolate. Herald the message far and wide. The world must know that Jehovah is God and that Jesus Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords. This is the day of all days. Behold, the King reigns!

It's true that Jesus could already be king of kings since 33CE, and then some great event in the future may move his followers to speak as if his kingship has just been renewed in some power way: "Jesus has now taken unto himself his great power and had begun to reign." Just as the Psalmist could look at a new Temple, or a great victory and say that "Jehovah has become King." But nothing was seen in 1914 about Jesus taking his power and becoming king of kings. It took Rutherford nearly 10 years before he began moving that "kingship" date from 1878 to 1914. During 1914, Rutherford must have seen 1914 as a failure. After it passed, Russell even changed the end of the Gentile Times to 1915. Rutherford specifically admitted later that no one had discerned what had happened in 1914 or 1918.

The word "synteleia" itself (meaning the ending of things together) would not fit 1914. And "parousia" doesn't fit because Jesus only spoke of a very visible visitation for judgment, resurrections, and gathering the chosen ones. It's easy to claim it all happened invisibly, but it doesn't fit the scriptures. Even if parousia was being used in its most simple sense of an arrival and subsequent presence, there is nothing "invisible" about this particular visitation and presence. It would be like trying to claim that lightning is invisible.

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1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

( But I thought you said they are ALL resurrected and transformed at the same time. )

I think they are all resurrected and transformed at about the same time. The WT doesn't say it knows for sure when it starts, but presents the idea that it could happen between 1914 to Armageddon. In fact, if it started in 1918, which was the original opinion after 1878 was dropped, then the idea was that ALL the previously dead anointed were raised at once in 1918, then newly deceased persons are changed in an instant.

I was pointing out how the "we don't really know for sure" style of the 2007 article would actually imply that it's not really known when "during the parousia" that this first resurrection starts. "During the parousia" could start as far back as 1914, then, in WT teachings. But even if all resurrections of all the anointed took place in the last two days prior to Armageddon, that would technically also be "during the parousia." The article had made a big point of the word 'during' without pointing out that this is also the Greek word for 'at.' If the translation had been 'at the parousia' it probably would have implied 1914 to the particular writer of that article.

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

But the problem seems that with WT,  there are three appearances

If there are three appearances, then that's what it is. But I agree that the Bible does not speak of 3. It definitely speaks of 2 appearances however. But no one says it must be limited to 2.

Each one of these appearances is also called a "reign" too. Jesus begins to reign over the congregation in 33. Then he begins to reign in his Kingdom in 1914. Then he begins the thousand year reign in just a few years. The Bible only speaks as if their is one reign of Christ, but again, this could be a matter of interpretation. 

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On 7/25/2020 at 3:17 PM, Anna said:

Coming, arriving and presence.

There are different possible words to use. But when you compare the contexts of Matthew 24, Luke 17/21, and Mark 13 it's pretty obvious that the all the different words refer to a "judgment event." The word for coming/arriving refers to the same "judgment event" as does the word "parousia" or even "synteleia" in Matthew. The other synoptics besides Matthew never use the term parousia, but replace all those instances with a form of come/arrive/happen/occur/be. Still referring to a judgment event in any case.

(Matthew 24:3) . . .While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence [parousia] and of the conclusion of the system of things?”

(Mark 13:4) 4 “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are destined to come to a conclusion?”

(Luke 21:7) 7 Then they questioned him, saying: “Teacher, when will these things actually be, and what will be the sign when these things are destined to occur?”

 

(Luke 17:24-30) 24 For even as the lightning, by its flashing, shines from one part under heaven to another part under heaven, so the Son of man will be. 25 First, however, he must undergo many sufferings and be rejected by this generation. 26 Moreover, just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of man: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage, until that day when Noah entered into the ark, and the flood arrived and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise, just as it occurred in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building. 29 But on the day that Lot came out of Sodʹom it rained fire and sulphur from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 The same way it will be on that day when the Son of man is to be revealed.

(Matthew 24:27-30) 27 For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 28 Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

(Matthew 24:37-42) 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned; 41 two women will be grinding at the hand mill: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned. 42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because YOU do not know on what day YOUR Lord is coming.

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6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What was strange is Paul's words about "instantly change". No one in WTJWorg was never saw nothing like that from 1914 till today. Well, what really happened in 1914? Or any year before or after (Russell', Rutherford' etc. guessing)?

I don't think any Witness would expect to see this change happen when one of the anointed dies. And no one expects to see any who live until the parousia change until a time just a bit prior to Armageddon when the remaining ones of the Bride are expected to join Christ in heaven, and be able to participate in "judging the nations."

That's because there is a tiny loophole in 1 Thess. 4:15-17

(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)  For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death;16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.

The NLT puts it like this:

We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died.[fn]

It seems quite obvious that Paul was trying to comfort those who knew fellow Christians who had died. One might naturally assume that if some (Group A-"alive") survived to see the parousia begin, then those who had previously died (Group B-"buried") would have to wait untii the resurrection occurred after the parousia was over. So Paul said to comfort those with dead loved ones that those dead (Group B) would not miss out on anything because just before the "rapture" at the parousia, the resurrection of those who had died would happen in time for them to see the parousia, so that they would all go to heaven at the same time with those who were "raptured" or "caught away" (Group A).

But the WT doctrine puts no emphasis on the closeness in timing of the resurrection and changing of the two groups. The only concern of the WT doctrine is that Group A does not precede Group B. Group A could ascend 106 or more years after Group B was resurrected. Persons in Group A would not even need their lives to overlap with persons in Group B. The WT doctrine must posit a new group, Group C, who die throughout the 106+ years of an elongated parousia, and are changed upon death, dying "during" the parousia. Paul didn't need to have a Group C, because he apparently thought of the parousia as affecting Group A and Group B at almost exactly the same time.

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22 hours ago, Anna said:

I have always taken this scripture to mean that there will be people pointing to visible signs that Jesus is here. Like that he is physically in one particular spot, in the wilderness, or in an inner room...and that there will be many such people, false Christs (and there have been).

The most direct meaning needs to make good sense in this context:

  1. Jesus predicts a cataclysmic, catastrophic, spectacular event that no one can miss or ignore because it will involve the destruction of the greatest Jewish city its most important landmark, the Temple at Jerusalem.
  2. The disciples, quite logically, ask for an advance warning sign that they can watch out for.
  3. Because they asked for a sign Jesus repeats warnings about not being fooled or misled by signs because even though many events will happen, the end they are asking about is not yet.
    • They will see "signs" and see people who will make claims and predictions and perform signs and wonders, and they must make sure they are not misled.
    • Signs they might think are evidence of the end, and it might only be the beginning. In this case.
    • Looking for signs will do no direct good because this particular judgment event will come as if by surprise, like a thief in the night. While people are still grinding at the mill, getting married, eating, and drinking, etc.

Within that context, of people falsely interpreting signs, making false predictions, making false claims about their knowledge, falsely claiming to be the Messiah themselves, or even many claiming that Jesus is the Messiah but that only they can lead disciples to him with true knowledge only they know about.

(Matthew 24:4, 5) . . .In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many.

Note that it is possible that people will come on the basis of knowing that Jesus is the Christ, (not themselves) therefore even claiming that "Jesus is the Christ" and will still mislead many. This is much more common than people falsely claiming to be Christ themselves. It is more like the people Jesus described as "performing many powerful works in his name" but Jesus would still say, I never knew you.

Jesus didn't say that any of these might claim that Jesus had returned invisibly. But the effect was the same. They would claim that they had special knowledge of his whereabouts, as if he had gone off and returned somewhere.

And how would the disciples know that these persons who made such claims were wrong? Because Jesus parousia would be highly visible. Unmistakably visible. Think of the brightest lightning you have ever seen, or can imagine: from one extremity of the earth to the other.

22 hours ago, Anna said:

So in contrast, and in that context, when v. 27 says that his presence will be from one end of the globe to the other, suggests that it could not be a literal physical presence of a person, since no one can be in more that one place at the same time.

I don't think it refers a literal physical presence either:

(Matthew 24:30, 31) . . .and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity. . .

I always thought of it as the "brightness of his glory." The disciples had a glimpse at the Transfiguration. Paul had a glimpse that blinded him. John had a glimpse:

(Revelation 1:16) . . .And he had in his right hand seven stars, and out of his mouth a sharp, long, two-edged sword was protruding, and his countenance was like the sun when it shines at its brightest.

(Matthew 16:27) . . .For the Son of man is destined to come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will recompense each one according to his behavior.

Jesus said that even those resurrected or changed in that day, which is part of it, will shine as the sun.

(Matthew 13:43) . . .At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father.. . .

22 hours ago, Anna said:

But we will see his "manifestation" from one end of the earth to the other.

And it's not just "those with insight" who see this bright manifestation. I think the post responding to Arauna point about this was already copied over to here.

(Matthew 24:30) . . .And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

22 hours ago, Anna said:

Since flesh and blood cannot enter into the heavens, and those people will be transformed into spirits, that are invisible, how could then this whole scenario be visible?

That part does not have to visible to the rest of us. Paul's point in 1 Thess 4:17 for example, was about how those persons with new glorified spiritual bodies, whether resurrected or changed, would meet Jesus Christ. Just how spiritual bodies "see" cannot be imagined by any of us. But when the Bible speaks of angels or heavenly bodies, it often points out how these bodies are glorious, and too glorious for humans to look upon unless the human was somehow shielded from the full "power and glory" of the spiritual body. We know for sure is that the Bible associates Jesus coming on the clouds with "visibility" as in Matt 24:30.

When Jesus ascended the first time, the cloud was associated with a point in time when they could no longer see him as he evidently finally disappeared into the clouds. This was obviously not necessary to have Jesus float upwards, but effective for human description. So it seems like some of the glorious effect (like seeing the power and great glory, or being as visible as a flash of unimaginably bright lightning) is also to help the rest of us make sense of it. More than just an understanding of who is behind it all.

22 hours ago, Anna said:

When did that harvest start? WT says in the 20th century. 

The harvest must actually be after the wheat and the weeds have continued to grow together until it's time for the angels to gather the chosen ones. This must also be the parousia, synteleia, or "day of judgment" when the angels are sent out to the extremities of the earth to gather (harvest) the chosen ones.

This harvest period has been a problem from the beginning of the Watchtower's attempts to explain it.

Originally it was a harvest in the 19th century. Barbour had argued for a harvest only from 1874 to the end of it in 1881. Russell settled on 1874 to 1914. When Jesus was considered to be failing to arrive in 1914 for the "visible" parousia, Russell began moving it (and the Gentile Times end) to 1915, and then Rutherford claimed that Jesus had actually arrived/returned in 1918, so that Rutherford changed the range of the harvest from 1878 to 1918. There had also been discussions of how some of the original 1844 crowd must have been wise virgins, especially when they showed themselves ready to NOT give up on chronology, as Miller had. When the new date for the midnight cry was considered to have occurred between 1844 and 1874 (typically 1859/1860) some preliminary harvesting must have taken place from chronology-compliant virgins even before that point. Originally, the trumpet sounds were extended further back towards the beginning of the last days, starting in 1799. For example a very early Watch Tower on the topic (1880, p.152-3) says that trumpet associated with reaping the first fruits of the Gospel Age went back to 1840: 

As to the time of our change, that it is at, (or during) the sounding of the "last trump,"—the "seventh," 

    Hello guest!
, and 11:15-18—and after the Lord himself has descended is plainly stated. We need not here repeat the evidences that the "seventh trump" began its sounding A.D. 1840, and will continue until the end of the time of trouble, and the end of "The times of the Gentiles," A.D. 1914, and that it is the trouble of this "Great day," which is here symbolically called the voice of the Archangel when he begins the deliverance of fleshly Israel. "At that time shall Michael stand up, the great Prince. (Archangel) which standeth for the children of thy people, and there shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation." 
    Hello guest!
. Nor will we here, again present the conclusive Bible proof that our Lord came for his Bride in 1874, and has an unseen work as Reaper of the first-fruits of this Gospel Age, (
    Hello guest!
) in separating between wheat and tares and gathering the living into a condition of readiness for their change.

So the harvest here is especially 1874 to 1914. 1914 was of course, as it says above, the end of the time of trouble, and a time when there would be physical manifestations of the parousia, and FLESHLY Israel would be delivered.

I can't really see how any of this made sense, because we are still planting. No one continues to plant after the harvest has started.

This is also another of those places where trying to extend the period of the synteleia/parousia results in Bible contradictions. Note:

(Matthew 13:39-43) . . .The harvest is a conclusion [synteleia] of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion [synteleia] of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. . . .

The harvest is the "end of the age" when those who cause stumbling will be pitched into the fiery furnace and the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun. If that has not happened yet, then we are not in the harvest yet. If the wheat and weeds are still growing together, we are not in the harvest yet.

The Watchtower admits this:

*** w13 7/15 p. 13 par. 16 “Look! I Am With You All the Days” ***
Jesus ends his prophecy by saying: “At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.” (Matt. 13:43) When and where will that be? The fulfillment of these words still lies ahead. Jesus foretold, not an activity currently taking place on earth, but a future event occurring in heaven.

As the footnote admits, for many years we tried to make this apply to the long period of the parousia when the preaching work occurred.

*** w13 7/15 p. 13 “Look! I Am With You All the Days” ***
However, Matthew 13:43 points to the time when they will shine brightly in the heavenly Kingdom. Previously, we thought that both scriptures referred to the same activity—the preaching work.

But now we move this "harvest" into the future, but still claim we are in the time of the harvest, and planting (the preaching work).

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Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man is seated on the throne of his glory, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.  Matt 19:28

There is no way they could “judge the twelve tribes of Israel” - the anointed, who lived throughout a 2,000 year period, unless they were in heaven with Christ.

1 Cor 6:3 – “Don't you know that we will judge angels -- how much more matters of this life?”

Eph 2:26 – “He also raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus”

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

redicts a cataclysmic, catastrophic, spectacular event that no one can miss or ignore

His own disciples did not believe him when he fist uttered these words so how would worldly people react?  Only after they saw and believed Jesus' resurrection would they remember these words and write it down so disciples could read it in the gospels. 

Other people may have heard rumors but definitely the MAJORITY did not take note -  just as in the time of the flood.  And that is exactly what Matthew indicates that most people would not listen and few would take note - just as in the flood. The gospels were a warning to the Christians to stay vigilant because  the generation itself took no note and carried on with their rebellions against the Romans - it means they did not understand the significance of the times at all.

When they understood the signs (the Romans in the city - fighting block to block to get control of it - it was already too late.  They did not show faith in Jesus to begin with so why would they suddenly believe his words?  Christians who did not flee when they were supposed to may have understood - but it was too late for them.   They understood events when it was too late. 

Similarly today - most Christians do not even know that they must watch out for the disgusting thing..... they are carrying on over the mark of the beast (electronic tracking system on their arm or somewhere else) when they do not even understand the significance of Jesus' death of his soul. They do not know the name Jehovah and do not understand the disgusting thing...… and that it will turn against all religion - that which we already know and believe.

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9 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

@JW Insider Thank you but we come back to this 1914 again.

*** w07 1/1 p. 28 par. 12 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
Could it, then, be reasoned that since Jesus was enthroned in the fall of 1914,  ******* 

 w07 1/1 p. 27 par. 9 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
Reasonably, then, anointed ones who die before Armageddon are resurrected sometime between 1914 and Armageddon.

( But I thought you said they are ALL resurrected and transformed at the same time. )

But, Quote @Anna

 

So there are two types of "appearances" :

The first is Christ's presence as the head of the congregation starting after his resurrection in 33 C E. (The WT agrees with that).
The second one is his appearance (manifestation) when he comes to take the remnant to heaven and judge, and every eye will see him because it will be the battle of Armageddon. (The WT agrees with that too). But the problem seems that with WT,  there are three appearances, 1.Christ's presence with the congregation after his resurrection in 33 CE, then interrupted with the great apostasy, then 2. restarted again in the time of the end (beginning 1914) and then 3. the manifestation where every eye will see him (Armageddon).

The plot thickens. 

*** w07 1/1 p. 28 par. 12 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
Could it, then, be reasoned that since Jesus was enthroned in the fall of 1914, the resurrection of his faithful anointed followers began three and a half years later, in the spring of 1918? That is an interesting possibility. Although this cannot be directly confirmed in the Bible, it is not out of harmony with other scriptures that indicate that the first resurrection got under way soon after Christ’s presence began.

But is it out of harmony with other scriptures ? As Anna mentions above it makes three types of appearances not two. 

What Bible evidence is there that 'proves' Jesus was 'enthroned' in 1914 ? And was this a second 'appearance' ?  If so then it seems Anna has a point about there being three appearances. 

My mind seriously boggles. At 70 years old it's all too much for me. 

Take heart you are not alone with your boggled mind.....Jehovah’s people have never got it all right at any given time he has had a people...why expect it of today?

Your/our confusion is just a testing of our faith...so don’t feel bad about it...

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2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)  For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death;16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.

By reading Paul's words, i would conclude how all that already happened in his time. Paul under inspiration wrote about him and some other people ( he said - "we") who will "survive presence". And after that "surviving" they will be "caught away in clouds". It is free to be conclude how Jesus "presence" happened in Paul's time.

He, Paul, speaking about it as he and them (he said - "we") will participate in that going to Lord. He was "inspired" to tell this. Under "inspiration" he made prophecy and future event that is sure and that will affect "their" lives (his and people he told about as - "we"), and not about some other people lives 20 centuries later. 

And, of course, another detail we have to take in consideration. No matter is number "144 000" literal or symbolic, Christian congregation/s in 1st century for sure had more than 144 000 (anointed) followers of Jesus. 

-----------------------------

What is the meaning of this described event? This was literal and visible to physical eyes and happened before Paul's words.

And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.  At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split  and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people. - Matt 27 

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8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Each one of these appearances is also called a "reign" too.

Yes - but different aspects of his reign is highlighted - it does not just pure rulership  i.e. such as ruling only over his disciples and having the authority over them, then ruling amidst his enemies as well, and then ruling over the entire earth...….. so his dominion (what he rules over) is slowly extended even though  he is an appointed king with authority. 

Just like in any rulership when one goes out to conquer you extend your rulership. Jehovah has appointed times for everything to take place.  Jesus was definitely not ruling over the entire world in this time because it is in the hands of satan and the wicked - even though he is a king.  That is why Jehovah as eternal king is mentioned as " Jehovah has become king"  This does not refer to Jehovah not being king before - but it refers to a new situation where he has taken over rulership once again.

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7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Christian congregation/s in 1st century for sure had more than 144 000 (anointed) followers of Jesus. 

...1000 is about ten congregations of 100 each. and congregations do not function well in large numbers. Because they were persecuted, I do not think the congregations were larger than say 30 or 40 - and even that is stretching it. So that would give three congregations per 100 people X 10 = 30 congregations per 1000.  this would give 4,800 congregations within 55 years of Jesus' death.  I doubt it.  Also think how many dropped out due to Greek philosophies and other bad behaviors …..and persecution. 

The weeds were entering the congregations as well.... so by the time the weeds became prevalent I think only a third or half would have been filled. But even if it was more - that means that close to the harvest time the rest of the weeds will be separated. 

 

1 cor 15:51 'look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52  in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during* the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed

During the last trumpet some will be changed.  Paul is saying that not all would die but that right at the end there would still be anointed on earth who will be instantly changed.  This event is not the same as the first resurrection.

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Quote @JW Insider Within that context, of people falsely interpreting signs, making false predictions, making false claims about their knowledge, falsely claiming to be the Messiah themselves, or even many claiming that Jesus is the Messiah but that only they can lead disciples to him with true knowledge only they know about.

I can seriously relate this to the Governing Body and the Watchtower / CCJW. 

falsely interpreting signs = Signs of the times of the end

making false predictions = The 1960's through 1975. And even now 'We are living in the Final part of the Final day'

making false claims about their knowledge, = GB calling themselves the Faithful & Discreet Slave.

but that only they can lead disciples to him = You have to be a Baptised JW to be saved. 

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Thank you for all your replies @JW Insider
 
In summary, as I understand it:

1. Jesus' coming/ parousia/presence although invisible (since he is a spirit) will be manifest in a physical way, like lightning flashing from one end of the earth to the other. At the same time, everyone, good or bad will be aware that this is the manifestation of Jesus, the king, and that he has come to judge the world. We know it as Armageddon. This is also when the  harvest will occur because the wheat (true Christians and those righteously disposed) will be separated from the weeds (false Christians) which will be removed from the earth.

2. Jesus' presence with his disciples till the conclusion of the system of things began in 33 C.E. when he was crowned king (WT interprets this to mean king over the Christians, but it seems like he was made king over the whole earth, although Arauna has made some good points about why this is is not necessarily so ).

All the above makes sense to me. However, we are still left with that secondary,"later application", (as opposed to the 1st century application) with regard to "the conclusion of the system of things" as being a period of time before Armageddon. If we do away with 1914, as there is no need for it if Jesus was crowned king over all in 33 CE , then there is also no need to solve the generation, but there still remain questions with regard to this specific time period.

In other words, where does the "revival" of true religion in the time of the modern day "last days" fit in?  (As the scriptures seem to indicate, and JWs believe). There seems to be plenty of evidence that apostasy did occur, as was predicted by Jesus, and therefor in time there had to be a separation of true Christians and counterfeit Christians. This though meets with conflict when we think of the idea of the two growing together as the weeds and the wheat until the harvest during Christ's coming/parusia/Armageddon because it could be understood that these two, the weeds and the wheat are intermingled, as in a field, and stay that way until they are separated at Armageddon. However, the Bible does say that in the time of the end true knowledge will become abundant, as opposed to apostatized knowledge. It is logical that people of like mind will gather together, and it fits in with the Bible students of Russell's day, and ultimately to our day as Jehovah's Witnesses worshiping together worldwide but in doctrinal unity. This is why I suppose Jehovah’s Witnesses are defined as a restorationist Christian religion as opposed to traditional "Christianity" which sprung up after the apostasy.
 
Christendom, although believing in some kind of judgement day in the future, does not occupy itself with the possible imminent second coming of Christ. I definitely give Jehovah's Witnesses credit in this regard, because since the beginning of their organized activity, the focus has been on relentlessly preaching the good news of the kingdom, the nearness of Christs coming to settle nutters on earth, and for Christians to be ready and finally to be found by him to be spotless and unblemished (coincidentally this was an item in tonight's meeting). In contrast, Christendom has done nothing to prepare their members for that day....to be ready and found approved by God.... although through the centuries it has acquired many converts (using very un-Chritian means) ultimately, it has taught them many untruths and caused much blood shed in the name of God. Surely, those who separated themselves from that kind of "Christianity" and grouped together were the wheat, and already stood apart from the weeds as if they had been harvested. But as you say the fact that the preaching work is still going on, means that the planting is still going on and  No one continues to plant after the harvest has started. "
 
On 7/27/2020 at 11:41 PM, JW Insider said:

*** w13 7/15 p. 13 “Look! I Am With You All the Days” ***
However, Matthew 13:43 points to the time when they will shine brightly in the heavenly Kingdom. Previously, we thought that both scriptures referred to the same activity—the preaching work.

But now we move this "harvest" into the future, but still claim we are in the time of the harvest, and planting (the preaching work).

I remember the WT and remember thinking the same at the time.....So what is the answer to this problem?

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10 hours ago, Anna said:

I remember the WT and remember thinking the same at the time.....So what is the answer to this problem?

"Harvest" seems to be a simple enough concept. But it's a good question because the Bible is about spiritual matters, using physical analogies to help us understand. We don't always expect the same physical analogy to be a perfect fit to all the related spiritual concepts. There are several aspects of the Kingdom, for example, and therefore Jesus used multiple physical analogies that all help build up a clearer understanding. (i.e., "The kingdom is like a . . . "]

We live in "historical time" and must use concepts like "harvest time" "thousand year reign" "last days" "last hour" "times of the nations" (gentile times), "this generation." But Jehovah's thoughts are unimaginably higher than our thoughts, especially as he "knows the end from the beginning." Jesus knew the mind of his father, so some of his uses of terms will reflect this. Knowing the end from the beginning can include reading hearts in such a way that Jehovah can already see the "harvest" in someone, even during the "sowing" season. And from this perspective, multiple fulfillments of a prophecy can work out even if not all the details of one fulfillment would fit the next.

In addition, since these are spiritual concepts almost everything we know about the Kingdom from its overarching historical perspective and ultimate fulfillment will also have a corresponding fulfillment in our own life, our personal conduct, and our responsibilities in the world and in the Christian Congregation. Isaiah spoke of a kind of "spiritual" paradise in the nation of "Judea/Israel" for example. Paul spoke of already being "resurrected" to a new life, and already being seated in heavenly places. Therefore, in our personal lives, we "reap what we sow." As Paul said, based on Psalms 112:

(2 Corinthians 9:10, 11) 10 Now the One who abundantly supplies seed to the sower and bread for eating will supply and multiply the seed for you to sow and will increase the harvest of your righteousness.) 11 In everything you are being enriched for every sort of generosity, which produces through us an expression of thanks to God;

In Israel physically, the disciples would have know that there could be a long planting season with various types of seeds to be planted at different times and several harvests across a couple of months depending on what ripened first. So it was especially in the context of Matthew 13 that we get this picture of a sudden, swift harvest carried out by angels. We might not have noticed that if Matthew had not included a second portion of that parable where the disciples asked Jesus to explain.

(Matthew 13:29, 30) . . .He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’”

Should note that the NWT breaks with its usual translation of kairos as "appointed time" and goes with "season" on this one. This allows for extending the harvest (and therefore the synteleia) over a century or more long period. If this "rule" had been followed, it would have read:

30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the appointed time of the harvest,

Imagine how much trouble would have been avoided if "season" had been used here for the same word "kairos":

(Mark 13:32, 33) 32 “Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father. 33 Keep looking, keep awake, for you do not know when the appointed time is.

It would have made it clear that we do not know when the "appointed time" is, but also that we do not know when the "season" is.

Compare:

(Revelation 14:15, 16) . . .Another angel emerged from the temple sanctuary, calling with a loud voice to the one seated on the cloud: “Put your sickle in and reap, because the hour has come to reap, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” 16 And the one seated on the cloud thrust his sickle into the earth, and the earth was reaped.

But this doesn't mean that harvest always had that same "sudden" aspect, controlled from a heavenly master, and angels. In Matthew 13, Jesus was the sower, and the fine seed were the sons of the Kingdom. But in other senses, as mentioned above, Paul could say that he was a sower, and Apollos a waterer, for example. Or even this illustration, where the disciples are reapers of a harvest:

(John 4:34-38) 34 Jesus said to them: “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. 35 Do you not say that there are yet four months before the harvest comes? Look! I say to you: Lift up your eyes and view the fields, that they are white for harvesting. Already 36 the reaper is receiving wages and gathering fruit for everlasting life, so that the sower and the reaper may rejoice together. 37 For in this respect the saying is true: One is the sower and another the reaper. 38 I sent you to reap what you did not labor on. Others have labored, and you have entered into the benefit of their labor.”

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8 hours ago, Anna said:

All the above makes sense to me. However, we are still left with that secondary,"later application", (as opposed to the 1st century application) with regard to "the conclusion of the system of things" as being a period of time before Armageddon. If we do away with 1914, as there is no need for it if Jesus was crowned king over all in 33 CE , then there is also no need to solve the generation, but there still remain questions with regard to this specific time period.

Jesus said that the harvest is the synteleia.

(Matthew 13:39) The harvest is a conclusion [synteleia] of a system of things, and the reapers are angels.

Therefore, there is no specific time period just before Armageddon. This also removes the contradiction we have created against Jesus' words that no one knows the times and seasons. If we say that we know absolutely that we were preaching in the last "measurable" generation prior to Armageddon, then we would be making Jesus out to be a liar. Anything can happen. The UN could actually ban religion just as we expect to happen in the next few years. But claiming that such a thing must happen just before Armageddon makes Jesus out to be a liar. It also causes trouble with the parable of the wheat and the weeds, where both grow together indistinguishably from a human perspective until the angels reap the world.

We should also remember that just because synteleia can be translated as conclusion, that conclusion need not be an extended time period. ("full end" is actually a better translation in the Bible's context.) We could be near the end of a season, and then suddenly everything is concluded, or consummated. You can get near the end of a novel and then in one sentence a conclusion sums up the entire story. We have learned to think of "conclusion" in a sense that was not in the Bible. In the Bible, the "conclusion" is getting near, the "conclusion" is approaching. Even though the disciples were only a few short years from the "conclusion" of a system of things in 70 CE, they weren't "in" the conclusion. The "synteleia" was a destructive conclusion to the entire age.

Note how Mark uses the verb form of the same word (synteleo😞

(Mark 13:4) 4 “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are to come to a conclusion?”

That translates a better sense of synteleia/synteleo as "conclusion." Literally, the term is about the final end of all things together, therefore the phrase "synteleia" of the "age". Other translations get even closer with their translation of Mark here:

(NLT) “Tell us, when will all this happen? What sign will show us that these things are about to be fulfilled?”

When the full phrase is used, "synteleia of the age," it's a way of saying "the end of all things." Peter used those exact words instead of the synteleia phrase.

(1 Peter 4:7) . . .But the end of all things has drawn close. . . .  (and 2 Peter details how this means the [figurative] passing away of the heavens and earth that now exist.)

If the NWT had used that phrase "end of all things" the idea of a long drawn out conclusion would be gone. For example:

(Matthew 28:20) . . .And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things end of all things.”

 

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4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

We live in "historical time" and must use concepts like "harvest time" "thousand year reign" "last days" "last hour" "times of the nations" (gentile times), "this generation." But Jehovah's thoughts are unimaginably higher than our thoughts, especially as he "knows the end from the beginning." Jesus knew the mind of his father, so some of his uses of terms will reflect this. Knowing the end from the beginning can include reading hearts in such a way that Jehovah can already see the "harvest" in someone, even during the "sowing" season. And from this perspective, multiple fulfillments of a prophecy can work out even if not all the details of one fulfillment would fit the next.

If God already see "harvest" in someone, than all this passed (and future) times of examinations, trials, sufferings, misery, exams, tests, right and wrong truths, punishments from god or human, remorse and/or stubbornness for an act done or not done, calling people to join this or that church, searching for answers, fear of the future and fear of god’s final judgment, fear of disappointing god ...etc. are unnecessary. Almost vast of time. But God is eternal, He has all time.

Here we have question; Did god knew what will happen with Adam and Eve? And WTJWorg answer how god didn't want to go and look for their future because He respects free will and don't want enters someone’s privacy... ??!! Perhaps we all are part of "experiment"? :))

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44 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

And WTJWorg answer how god didn't want to go and look for their future because He respects free will and don't want enters someone’s privacy... ??!!

I like this explanation. I think this is the best explanation anyone ever came up with to mesh free will and predestination, both of which seem possible from Jehovah's perspective (based on certain scriptures).

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10 hours ago, Anna said:

In other words, where does the "revival" of true religion in the time of the modern day "last days" fit in?

I realize I had skipped this question.

Revelation 2 and 3 show that various congregations should at all times watch out for false teachings and that they might even go through phases of cleaning out false doctrine, immorality, and increasing their Christian "deeds." This is exactly what Russell and the WTS had tried to do, and it's being done in greater measure all the time.

(Revelation 2:18-23) 18 “To the angel of the congregation in Thy·a·tiʹra write: These are the things that the Son of God says, the one who has eyes like a fiery flame and whose feet are like fine copper: 19 ‘I know your deeds, and your love and faith and ministry and endurance, and that your deeds of late are more than those you did at first. 20 “‘Nevertheless, I do hold this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezʹe·bel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and misleads my slaves to commit sexual immorality and to eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent, but she is not willing to repent of her sexual immorality. . . . so that all the congregations will know that I am the one who searches the innermost thoughts and hearts, and I will give to you individually according to your deeds.

(Revelation 3:1, 2) . . .“To the angel of the congregation in Sarʹdis write: These are the things that he says who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars: ‘I know your deeds, that you have the name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Become watchful, and strengthen the things remaining that were ready to die, for I have not found your works fully performed before my God.

Those were just two of several examples. But they show how Jesus has been head of the congregations, who are responsible for greater accomplishments. The CCJW has done more than any others to accomplish greater deeds to more fully perform the congregation's duties regarding love, faith, ministry, morality, doctrine, and do this on an international scale. We are living in a time when certain methods are just now possible that were not possible before. Being alert to such types of "deeds" have included our ability to go beyond just "house-to-house" and make use of the printed page, transportation, radio, advertising, Internet. Staying alert to doing what we can, when properly motivated, is why we are blessed to be associated in this particular time period. And it seems like a pretty good guess that we are reaching the most critical of critical times. We don't actually "need" any chronology to tell us that it's time to lift our heads up because our deliverance is getting near.

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@JW Insider That last paragraph is definitely a joke. But as I said to  @Arauna, you people that are deep in the Org are blind, or choose to be blind, to the truth about the GB and the CCJW. 

 Quote The CCJW has done more than any others to accomplish greater deeds to more fully perform the congregation's duties regarding love, faith, ministry, morality, doctrine, '

The faith in the CCJW is faith in it's GB, not faith in God through Christ. So when the GB deliberately misuses scripture then the congregants don't know because they just believe the GB. 

Doctrine, 'the final hour of the final afternoon of the final day ...'  come on, get real. The GB calling themselves the F&DS, Is that good doctrine ? 

Love, GB decides they won't apologise to Victims of Child Sexual Abuse and gathers up money from everywhere to hide it offshore so as NOT to pay compensation to Victims. 

Morality, GB withholds Database containing 20 + years of Child Sexual Abuse information and continues to hide those Paedophiles within the CCJW. 

MinistryBut what it teaches one year is different to what it teaches the next year. And no, it's not new light, it's just new guesswork, because the GB and the helpers are neither inspired or guided by holy spirit. 

I'm sure I noticed you say that other translations had translated scriptures better or clearer than the NWT. And you also say that words can be translated differently. This causes a problem for anyone studying God's word, unless they know Greek well, and even then I think there are 'different types' of Greek writing. :( 

This has caused me to decrease my Bible reading as I see no point in reading what I'm not supposed to understand.

That is why I am so sure that a True Anointed will appear on the scene a few years before Armageddon. To quote @Anna However, the Bible does say that in the time of the end true knowledge will become abundant, as opposed to apostatized knowledge.

As others have said before, if it is true knowledge it will not need replacing or removing. It will be true knowledge that can be built upon, so that the knowledge will increase. 

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Quote @JW Insider 

Every town in North Korea was burned down. It was actually a war against the civilians, which means that the US was directly engaged in terrorism. Some bombers admitted that every building over five stories high (residential or otherwise) was a target. If Russia threatened a border state (and they have) in the way the US continues continues to threaten North Korea from all sides, the West would be furious at them.

Yes and this is the country that controls the earth wide Organisation of CCJW. 

The American GB of the American religion, the CCJW. 

And their one motto 'Collateral Damage is not important'.

People are only numbers, boots on the ground. 

This is why there is such a great need for a TRUE Anointed from all parts of the Earth, not from America. 

Americans are brainwashed to have no true Christian feelings. All hype, no love, no mercy, no justice.

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I moved the above post from @4Jah2me over here from a topic that wasn't really about Korea or the GB. These types of "trolling" comments were already going on over here, and hadn't yet started over on the the other topic. 

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@4Jah2me a while back you expressed  contempt at the fact that there is a JW only club and mockingly wondered what kind of topics might be discussed there. Well before this topic was moved here, (since it was off topic in the Furuli discussion) I considered making it a topic in the JW only club for the very reason that has become apparent  with your latest comment. In the JW only club, we like to actually discuss scriptures and their application, without inserting child sexual abuse or the imperfections of imperfect people every chance there is. That is the reason why the JW only club was set up, to avoid that. That is not to say the problems regarding child sexual abuse are not discussed there, they are, but under a relevant topic. I wish I had moved this topic there now. 😠

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@Anna I don't know which of my above comments you are referring to. Is it the comment referring to Americans deliberately killing innocent people ?  Or is it about the Faith, Doctrine, Love, Morality etc ? 

@JW Insider Call it trolling if it pleases you but it just makes sense to me that your GB are nearly all American, and nearly all White. And your comment about how murderous and hateful Americans can be and how they seem to have no regard for human life just adds up to why your GB are like they are. 

@Anna  I have no interest in your JW Only Club. You can all sing each others praises if you wish, and tell each other lies about how wonderful you think your GB are and the Org is.

However when JWI changes this interesting topic on scripture about Jesus, to a fairy tale view of the CCJW, then I felt the need to point out his blindness or his 'rose tinted spectacles'. 

The more I hear about America the more I wish that God would build His earthly part of His  'Organisation' somewhere else. 

--------------------------------------------------

Slightly back on topic though :- Quote @JW Insider from his first comment.

 

"We know that Jesus' invisible presence began in the first century, around 33 CE, because, as Jesus said:

(Matthew 18:20) For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.

(Matthew 28:20) . . .And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

So, Jesus is invisibly present with Christians always from his resurrection UNTIL the conclusion (Gk, synteleia)

-------------------------------------

Surely Jesus was talking to the Anointed here. So surely these scriptures are for the Anointed only. 

Now the Matthew 18 v 20 scripture is interesting as it says  For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.

Think about this, because your GB tell the Anointed NOT to gather together and they say it would be 'Working against the Holy Spirit' 

 

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      Over the years, the Watchtower has proposed slightly different ways to read Matthew 24, including splitting it up into two and sometimes three parts, where the first part referred pretty much equally to both a "minor" fulfillment on the first-century generation and a "major" fulfillment on the "final" generation that sees the final judgment event. Then, a middle portion of the chapter was often said to be primarily for the first century without direct application to the "final" generation. Then, later parts of the chapter were said to be meant primarily or sometimes ONLY for the final judgment event on the whole world. None of the differences in these variations was very significant in the overall picture, because in general the Watchtower has seen the greater "major" important fulfillment of almost all of Matthew 24 to be tied to the final generation that sees that "parousia" or "presence."
      If we assume that the primarily fulfillment of Matthew 24 was intended for the final generation, then the secondary discussion is about whether we have correctly understood what Jesus meant with respect to the sign, the parousia, the conclusion, the generation, etc. So, that's the basic discussion being proposed here: that we look carefully at Matthew 24 and see if we have not perhaps tried to fit unlikely definitions of words so that we could make our specific doctrine fit.
      Of course, it is quite proper to look at unlikely definitions of words if the meaning derived becomes the only possible way to understand a passage and the only way in which it properly fits the context and related scriptures. But what if the more likely definitions of each of the words also produces an overall meaning that fits just as well with the context and other scripture? What if accepting the more likely definitions of words in the chapter resulted in an even BETTER fit overall for the rest of the scriptures? What if it were seen that trying to make a doctrine out of the unlikely definitions actually created scriptural contradictions?
      What I'd propose is that we try to let scripture explain scripture wherever possible and then try to give an honest appraisal of whether or not our "special definitions" we have infused into the meaning of several words in the chapter really makes more sense than the more common definitions of these words.  We could start with general ideas that we can all agree on (hopefully) and then check those ideas as either more or less likely to fit the ideas created from other parts of the chapter that depend on special definitions. I think this will help us evaluate whether we have built a doctrine upon the more likely or the less likely meaning of the words that Jesus used.
    • By Jack Ryan
      What is our official definition of "parousia" found in Matthew 24:3?




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    • folens  »  Eric Ouellet

      Bonjour Eric, merci pour cet exposé sur Hanna, Bonne journée. Michel
      ENTRETIEN AVEC DIEU.pptx
      · 1 reply
    • Eric Ouellet

      LA FOI D'HANNA ENVERS DIEU APPORTE SA RÉCOMPENSE
      UNE femme de foi adresse une prière à Jéhovah. Convaincue que c’est Dieu qui l’a relevée de la poussière, transformant son abattement en exultation, elle le loue à haute voix.
      Cette femme, c’est Hanna. Qu’est-ce qui explique son spectaculaire changement d’état d’âme ? Pourquoi est-elle à présent si joyeuse ? En quoi ce qu’elle a vécu peut-il nous être utile ? Intéressons-nous à son histoire.
      Une famille sous pression
      Hanna est l’une des deux femmes d’Elqana, un Lévite de la région d’Éphraïm (1 Samuel 1:1, 2a ; 1 Chroniques 6:33, 34). Bien que n’entrant pas dans le dessein originel de Dieu pour l’humanité, la polygamie est autorisée et réglementée sous la Loi mosaïque. Elle est néanmoins une source fréquente de discorde. La vie de cette famille, qui pourtant adore Jéhovah, en témoigne.
      Hanna est stérile, tandis que Peninna, l’autre femme d’Elqana, a plusieurs enfants. Peninna se comporte en rivale. — 1 Samuel 1:2b.
      Pour une Israélite, la stérilité est un déshonneur, et même un signe de la défaveur divine. Mais, dans le cas de Hanna, rien n’indique que son incapacité de procréer soit liée à la désapprobation de Dieu. Peninna ne la console pas pour autant ; elle se prévaut au contraire de son statut de mère pour l’humilier.
      Au sanctuaire de Jéhovah
      Malgré ces tensions, la famille entreprend le voyage annuel en direction du sanctuaire de Jéhovah, à Shilo, pour y offrir des sacrifices. L’aller-retour de quelque 60 kilomètres se fait vraisemblablement à pied. Cet événement doit être particulièrement pénible pour Hanna. En effet, Peninna et ses enfants reçoivent plusieurs portions du sacrifice de communion, alors que Hanna, elle, n’en reçoit qu’une seule. Peninna trouve là une opportunité supplémentaire de la blesser et de la mettre dans l’embarras ; il semble que Jéhovah ait “ fermé sa matrice ”, et elle ne manque pas de le lui rappeler. Tous les ans, c’est le même calvaire. Tous les ans, Hanna pleure et cesse de manger. Ces voyages qui normalement devraient la mettre en joie la plongent dans une profonde détresse. Hanna se rend néanmoins chaque année au sanctuaire de Jéhovah. — 1 Samuel 1:3-7.
      Voyez-vous en quoi Hanna est un bel exemple ? Comment réagissez-vous lorsque vous êtes déprimé ? Vous isolez-vous et évitez-vous les contacts avec vos compagnons chrétiens ? Ce n’est pas ce qu’a fait Hanna. Les rassemblements avec les adorateurs de Jéhovah étaient pour elle une habitude de vie. Même face à des circonstances éprouvantes, il devrait en être de même pour nous. — Psaume 26:12 ; 122:1 ; Proverbes 18:1 ; Hébreux 10:24, 25.
      Elqana tente de réconforter Hanna et il l’amène à exprimer ses sentiments profonds. “ Hanna, pourquoi pleures-tu et pourquoi ne manges-tu pas ? Pourquoi ton cœur a-t-il mal ? lui demande-t-il. Est-ce que je ne vaux pas mieux pour toi que dix fils ? ” (1 Samuel 1:8). Peut-être n’a-t-il pas conscience de la malveillance de Peninna. Et peut-être Hanna préfère-t-elle se taire plutôt que de se plaindre. Quoi qu’il en soit, cette femme spirituelle se tourne vers Jéhovah dans la prière pour retrouver la paix intérieure.
      Le vœu de Hanna
      Les sacrifices de communion étaient consommés dans le sanctuaire. Après avoir quitté la salle à manger, Hanna prie Dieu (1 Samuel 1:9, 10). “ Ô Jéhovah des armées, implore-t-elle, si tu ne manques pas de regarder l’affliction de ton esclave et si vraiment tu te souviens de moi, si tu n’oublies pas ton esclave et si vraiment tu donnes à ton esclave un descendant mâle, oui je le donnerai à Jéhovah pour tous les jours de sa vie, et le rasoir ne viendra pas sur sa tête. ” — 1 Samuel 1:11.
      La prière de Hanna est précise. Elle demande un fils, et elle fait le vœu que cet enfant sera toute sa vie un naziréen de Dieu (Nombres 6:1-5). Ce vœu nécessite l’approbation de son mari, et certaines actions ultérieures d’Elqana montrent qu’il approuve l’engagement pris par sa chère femme. — Nombres 30:6-8.
      À cause de la manière dont Hanna prie, le grand prêtre Éli la croit ivre. Il voit effectivement ses lèvres frémir, mais il ne l’entend pas parler. C’est qu’en fait Hanna prie dans son cœur, avec ferveur (1 Samuel 1:12-14). Imaginez ce qu’elle ressent lorsque le grand prêtre l’accuse d’être ivre ! Pourtant, elle lui répond respectueusement. Comprenant alors que Hanna était en train de prier “ dans l’abondance de [son] inquiétude et de [son] dépit ”, il lui dit : “ Que le Dieu d’Israël accorde ta requête. ” (1 Samuel 1:15-17). Sur ces paroles, Hanna s’en va ; elle mange et “ son visage ne par[aît] plus soucieux ”. — 1 Samuel 1:18.
      Que nous enseigne tout cela ? Lorsque nous prions Jéhovah à propos de nos inquiétudes, nous pouvons lui exprimer ce que nous ressentons et lui adresser des requêtes sincères. Si nous avons fait tout notre possible pour résoudre le problème, alors nous devrions laisser les choses entre ses mains. C’est ce qu’il y a de mieux à faire. — Proverbes 3:5, 6.
      Après une prière fervente, il est fréquent que des serviteurs de Jéhovah ressentent une sérénité comparable à celle que Hanna a éprouvée. Voici ce qu’a écrit l’apôtre Paul au sujet de la prière : “ Ne vous inquiétez de rien, mais en tout, par la prière et la supplication avec action de grâces, faites connaître vos requêtes à Dieu ; et la paix de Dieu, qui surpasse toute pensée, gardera vos cœurs et vos facultés mentales par le moyen de Christ Jésus. ” (Philippiens 4:6, 7). Après nous être déchargés de notre fardeau sur Jéhovah, nous devons le laisser s’en occuper. Puis, comme dans le cas de Hanna, il n’y a plus lieu de s’inquiéter. — Psaume 55:22.
      Un fils “ prêté ” à Jéhovah
      Dieu se tourne alors vers Hanna. Peu après, elle porte un enfant. Elle met au monde un garçon (1 Samuel 1:19, 20). C’est l’une des rares fois où la Bible fait état de la responsabilité de Dieu dans la naissance de l’un de ses serviteurs. L’enfant d’Elqana et de Hanna, Samuel, deviendra effectivement le prophète de Jéhovah, un prophète qui jouera un rôle important dans la mise en place de la monarchie d’Israël.
      Il est certain que Hanna parle de Jéhovah à Samuel dès sa petite enfance. Mais oublie-t-elle le vœu qu’elle a fait ? Absolument pas ! “ Dès que le garçon sera sevré, je devrai l’amener ; il devra paraître devant Jéhovah et habiter là pour des temps indéfinis ”, déclare-t-elle. Et en effet, une fois l’enfant sevré — peut-être à l’âge de trois ans ou un peu plus —, elle l’amène au sanctuaire, comme elle l’avait promis. — 1 Samuel 1:21-24 ; 2 Chroniques 31:16.
      Après avoir offert un sacrifice à Jéhovah, Hanna et son mari présentent Samuel à Éli. Hanna tient certainement la main de son petit garçon lorsqu’elle dit à Éli : “ Pardon, mon seigneur ! Par la vie de ton âme, mon seigneur, je suis la femme qui se tenait près de toi, en ce lieu, pour prier Jéhovah. C’est à propos de ce garçon que je priais, pour que Jéhovah m’accorde ma requête, ce que je lui demandais. Et moi, à mon tour, je l’ai prêté à Jéhovah. Oui, tous les jours qu’il sera, c’est quelqu’un de demandé pour Jéhovah. ” Ainsi commence, pour Samuel, une vie au service de Dieu. — 1 Samuel 1:25-28 ; 2:11.
      Le temps passe ; bien sûr Hanna n’oublie pas son fils. Les Écritures relatent : “ Sa mère avait coutume de lui faire un petit manteau sans manches, et elle le lui montait, d’année en année, quand elle montait avec son mari pour sacrifier le sacrifice annuel. ” (1 Samuel 2:19). Hanna prie sans aucun doute pour Samuel. Tous les ans, lorsqu’elle lui rend visite, elle l’encourage à coup sûr à demeurer fidèle dans son service pour Dieu.
      Pendant l’une de ces visites, Éli bénit les parents du garçon. Il déclare à Elqana : “ Que Jéhovah t’assigne une descendance de cette femme, à la place du prêt qui a été prêté à Jéhovah. ” C’est ainsi que le couple est récompensé par la naissance de trois autres fils et de deux filles. — 1 Samuel 2:20, 21.
      Quel formidable exemple pour les parents chrétiens ! Beaucoup de mères et de pères se montrent, eux aussi, disposés à prêter, figurément parlant, leurs enfants à Jéhovah ; en effet, ils les encouragent à entreprendre une forme de service à plein temps, même si cela implique que leur fils, ou leur fille, vive loin d’eux. De tels parents aimants méritent des louanges pour les sacrifices qu’ils font. Jéhovah les récompensera.
      Une prière qui déborde de joie
      Comme Hanna est heureuse, elle que la stérilité affectait tant autrefois ! Les Écritures ne contiennent que peu de prières faites par des femmes. Mais, en ce qui concerne Hanna, elles en rapportent deux. La première expose ses sentiments alors qu’elle est humiliée et affligée. La seconde exprime son exultation et son action de grâces ; elle commence par ces mots : “ Oui, mon cœur exulte en Jéhovah. ” Hanna se réjouit ensuite que ‘ même la stérile ait mis au monde ’. Et elle loue Jéhovah, celui “ qui élève [...], qui relève le petit de la poussière ”. Vraiment, il est celui qui “ de la fosse aux cendres [...] fait remonter le pauvre ”. — 1 Samuel 2:1-10.
      Cet épisode de la vie de Hanna, dont le récit a été inspiré par Dieu, montre que les imperfections, voire la malveillance, des autres peuvent nous blesser. Toutefois, nous ne devons pas permettre à ce genre d’épreuves de nous priver de notre joie de servir Dieu. Jéhovah est, par excellence, Celui qui entend la prière, qui répond aux appels à l’aide de ses fidèles et qui les délivre de l’affliction. Il leur accorde une paix profonde et de nombreuses autres bénédictions. — Psaume 22:23-26 ; 34:6-8 ; 65:2.

      · 0 replies
    • Eric Ouellet

      1 Samuel 2 : 1-10
      Hannah pria Dieu en ces mots:
      Mon cœur se réjouit au sujet de Jéhovah
      ma force grandit grâce à Jéhovah.
      Ma bouche s’ouvre toute grande contre mes ennemis,
      car je me réjouis de tes actes sauveurs.
      Il n’y a personne qui soit saint comme Jéhovah,
      il n’y a personne qui soit comme toi,
      il n’y a pas de rocher comme notre Dieu.
      Arrêtez de parler avec orgueil ;
      que rien d’arrogant ne sorte de votre bouche,
      car Jéhovah est un Dieu qui sait tout
      et il juge les actions avec justice.
      Les arcs des hommes forts sont brisés,
      mais les hommes faibles reçoivent de la force
      Ceux qui mangeaient bien doivent trouver du travail pour avoir du pain,
      mais les affamés ne souffrent plus de la faim.
      La femme stérile a donné naissance à sept fils,
      mais celle qui avait beaucoup de fils est devenue stérile.
      Jéhovah tue et il garde en vie,
      il fait descendre dans la Tombe et il en fait remonter.
      Jéhovah fait devenir pauvre et il fait devenir riche,
      il abaisse et il élève.
      Il relève le petit de la poussière
      et fait remonter le pauvre du tas de cendres
      pour les faire asseoir avec les princes
      et leur offrir une place d’honneur.
      À Jéhovah appartiennent les fondations de la terre ;
      sur elles, il pose le monde
      Il veille sur les pas de ses fidèles,
      mais les méchants seront tués dans l’obscurité,
      car ce n’est pas par la force que l’homme triomphe. 
      Jéhovah anéantira ceux qui combattent contre lui ;
      pour exprimer sa colère, il fera gronder le tonnerre dans le ciel.
      Jéhovah jugera jusqu’aux extrémités de la terre,
      il donnera du pouvoir à son roi et il fera grandir la force de son oint.
       
       
       


      · 1 reply
    • anniemsbelle@gmail.com  »  Queen Esther

      Do you have the print out for the regional convention 
      · 1 reply
    • anniemsbelle@gmail.com  »  Queen Esther

      Do you have the print out for the regional convention 
      · 0 replies
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