Wasn't Jesus' supposed parousia/advent to be recognized only by those who had spiritual insight at the time?

[JW Insider]

2 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

I always thought that the CCJW taught that the Apostles had been resurrected in the spirit long ago, possibly 1914 ?

If you look up the phrase "interesting possibiity" in the Watchtower Library you will also find this statement:

*** w07 1/1 p. 28 par. 12 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
Could it, then, be reasoned that since Jesus was enthroned in the fall of 1914, the resurrection of his faithful anointed followers began three and a half years later, in the spring of 1918? That is an interesting possibility. Although this cannot be directly confirmed in the Bible, it is not out of harmony with other scriptures that indicate that the first resurrection got under way soon after Christ’s presence began.

Before and after the statement above, the article also said:

*** w07 1/1 p. 27 par. 9 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
Reasonably, then, anointed ones who die before Armageddon are resurrected sometime between 1914 and Armageddon.

*** w07 1/1 p. 30 par. 18 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
God’s Word does not disclose a precise date for the first resurrection, . . . .

The preference in the article was for a date between 1914 and 1935, but no definitive reason could be given. Just "interesting possibilities."

11 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

So who did Paul think would 'rise first' ?  And was he writing just for his own time period then ? 

He was writing that the anointed dead would rise first at the parousia. At the time, all Christians were considered either anointed or fleshly/unspiritual. He was writing because some were concerned that the parousia might be so close, that it would be a shame if some Christians died or were killed, because then they might then miss this most spectacular event in all of history. So Paul said to "comfort one another" with these words that showed that no one would miss anything, because when the parousia arrives, the dead [anointed] will rise first, and then those who were still alive at the parousia would be instantly changed together at the same time. The timing would be so close that it would be as if all of them were meeting together "mid-air" to be with Christ forever from that point on. Paul was just trying to make it clear that no one would miss a thing.

20 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

 But who were these prophets or nobodies that would rise first as spirit persons ? 

100% of the anointed dead who died before the parousia begins. From about 33CE on up to the time of the parousia.

(I used the term apostles, prophets and nobodies, because of the context of 1 Cor 12, where all these different types of persons make up the anointed "body" of Christ.)

24 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

I sure I was taught that only persons that died 'after' Christ was resurrected, would have the heavenly hope. And I'm sure I was taught that Abraham and Moses would definitely live here on Earth. 

Same here. Seems correct to me. But we aren't the ones who make that ultimate selection. And the scriptures make a reasonable case for that, but not definitive.

26 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

I know that my sins are many and I'm not worthy of eternal life. And I definitely am not of the Anointed.

I wasn't talking about what you are worthy of. No human is worthy. And that goes for "anointed" or even "true anointed" as you call them. No "true anointed" is worthy; it is by undeserved kindness they are called.

28 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Do you think this system will last another 5 to 10 years then ?  

Anything can happen. In 10 minutes or in 10 centuries. We don't have to wait until certain signs line up and make it seem inevitable. Doing this can make one desensitized when and if those particular signs clear up, and we then think we have to wait for something more specific, or something worse. People look at Covid-19 and say: "This is it!" or at least that this must be a part of the "end-time" process. It could very well be. But we shouldn't be looking at any sign that way. We know our deliverance is getting near (and nearer all the time). If Covid-19 clears up in a couple years and people start saying that things look peaceful and secure again, it could just as easily happen in the middle of that more peaceful time. It could also easily happen in the middle of a pandemic.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

@JW Insider Thank you but we come back to this 1914 again.

*** w07 1/1 p. 28 par. 12 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
Could it, then, be reasoned that since Jesus was enthroned in the fall of 1914,  ******* 

 w07 1/1 p. 27 par. 9 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
Reasonably, then, anointed ones who die before Armageddon are resurrected sometime between 1914 and Armageddon.

( But I thought you said they are ALL resurrected and transformed at the same time. )

But, Quote @Anna

 

So there are two types of "appearances" :

The first is Christ's presence as the head of the congregation starting after his resurrection in 33 C E. (The WT agrees with that).
The second one is his appearance (manifestation) when he comes to take the remnant to heaven and judge, and every eye will see him because it will be the battle of Armageddon. (The WT agrees with that too). But the problem seems that with WT,  there are three appearances, 1.Christ's presence with the congregation after his resurrection in 33 CE, then interrupted with the great apostasy, then 2. restarted again in the time of the end (beginning 1914) and then 3. the manifestation where every eye will see him (Armageddon).

The plot thickens. 

*** w07 1/1 p. 28 par. 12 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
Could it, then, be reasoned that since Jesus was enthroned in the fall of 1914, the resurrection of his faithful anointed followers began three and a half years later, in the spring of 1918? That is an interesting possibility. Although this cannot be directly confirmed in the Bible, it is not out of harmony with other scriptures that indicate that the first resurrection got under way soon after Christ’s presence began.

But is it out of harmony with other scriptures ? As Anna mentions above it makes three types of appearances not two. 

What Bible evidence is there that 'proves' Jesus was 'enthroned' in 1914 ? And was this a second 'appearance' ?  If so then it seems Anna has a point about there being three appearances. 

My mind seriously boggles. At 70 years old it's all too much for me. 

[Srecko Sostar]

8 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

So Paul said to "comfort one another" with these words that showed that no one would miss anything, because when the parousia arrives, the dead [anointed] will rise first, and then those who were still alive at the parousia would be instantly changed together at the same time. The timing would be so close that it would be as if all of them were meeting together "mid-air" to be with Christ forever from that point on. Paul was just trying to make it clear that no one would miss a thing.

All these decades in the Organization .... it has been constantly taught that the anointed began to be resurrected from 1914. And this as if they were all resurrected at the same time, and those who died after 1914 were also resurrected to life in heaven in moment of death. 

What was strange is Paul's words about "instantly change". No one in WTJWorg was never saw nothing like that from 1914 till today. Well, what really happened in 1914? Or any year before or after (Russell', Rutherford' etc. guessing)?

 

Because, no JW anointed was not affected by the "change", which should be "seen" on the living anointed, it can easily be concluded that we do not live in time of parousia or in time of "parousia's interpretations".

Once again, WT doctrines and interpretations are so problematic.

[JW Insider]

On 7/25/2020 at 3:17 PM, Anna said:

Option A 1.Jesus became king when he was resurrected to heaven in 33 C E. He battled with Satan and threw him down to the earth. 2. At the same time his invisible presence began, because he was to be present (in "spirit) with his followers, overseeing the congregations. 3. Synteleia: he will arrive to judge the nations at Armageddon, "where every eye will see him".*

Yes. It looks like this matches up best with the scriptures. I think that "synteleia" and "parousia" refer to the same time period. Synteleia can refer to the end of many things together, similar to a phrase that Peter used when he said "the end of all things has drawn close." Note the plural:

(1 Peter 4:7) . . .But the end of all things has drawn close.. . .

(1 Corinthians 10:11) . . .a warning to us upon whom the ends of the systems of things have come.

We sometimes think of this as only referring to an end of a time period, but the word can refer more to a "destruction" of things that brings them to their end. Therefore the phrase in Matthew 24:3 could even be stated as:

What can you give us as an advance warning sign before this "Visitation" and this destructive "End of the Age?"

On 7/25/2020 at 3:17 PM, Anna said:

Option B 1. Jesus was made king over the anointed/ congregation in 33 CE. 2.  At the same time his invisible presence  began, because he was to be present (in "spirit) with his followers, overseeing the congregations. 3. Synteleia: In 1914 he became ruling King and battled with Satan and threw him down to the earth. 4. He will "arrive" to judge the nations at Armageddon when every eye will see him.

This is the current WT view on it, of course. (I have scrunched up your comment to fit in the re-quote box.)

There are a few issues with it, which is why it comes up. #1 is right of course, but it ignores the fact that this is only the first step in gaining proper subjects for a "Kingdom." The scriptures make so much of the fact that Jesus has been given ALL AUTHORITY at his resurrection. He has conquered something that makes him above all other powers in the Universe except Jehovah. He is called king of kings after 33 CE. So why are we so reluctant to give Jesus credit for what he has accomplished? Note how the WT view is the REVERSE of the Bible's view here:

(Ephesians 1:19-22) . . .It is according to the operation of the mightiness of his strength, 20 which he exercised toward Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named, not only in this system of things but also in that to come. 22 He also subjected all things under his feet and made him head over all things with regard to the congregation,

In the WT view, Jesus is made head over all things with regard to the congregation for now, but by 1914 he will also come into his Kingdom authority with regards to every government [kingdom], authority and power and lordship.

And as you know, Ephesians 1 is only one example of this. There are several others. Including 1 Timothy 6:16 already calling Jesus the "king of kings" in the first century. The Bible writers honored Jesus new position of authority over all governments of the earth, and all powers and lorships in heaven, too!

*** it-1 p. 1136 Honor ***
Since it was Jehovah God who highly exalted his Son, all who refuse to acknowledge Jesus Christ as the immortal King of kings and Lord of lords dishonor the Father. Because of who he is and what he has accomplished, the Son deserves honor and loyal support. (Joh 5:23; 1Ti 6:15, 16; Re 5:11-13)

But,can you imagine the Watchtower ever highlighting the fact that Jesus was "king of kings" in the first century? Instead we get statements like the following:

*** w94 5/1 p. 17 par. 9 Kingdom Proclaimers Active in All the Earth ***
At the second Cedar Point convention, in 1922, Brother Rutherford highlighted the fact that at the end of the Gentile Times, in 1914, ‘the King of glory had taken unto himself his great power and had begun to reign.’ Next, he put the issue squarely to his audience, saying: “Do you believe that the King of glory has begun his reign? Then back to the field, O ye sons of the most high God! . . . Herald the message far and wide. The world must know that Jehovah is God and that Jesus Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords. This is the day of all days. Behold, the King reigns! You are his publicity agents.”

Yes, in 1922, Rutherford began to speak of Jesus taking his power in 1914 as King, and cleansing the lips of the temple class, and it appeared that this was the first time Rutheford began to move the official date of Christ's reign from 1878. And even quotes such as these must forget that the actual words at the assembly included statements like:

“In 1878 God’s favor was withdrawn from the nominal systems. From that time on Brother Russell and the brethren who supported him went throughout the land . . . . Do you believe it? Do you believe that the King of glory is present, and has been since 1874? Do you believe that during that time he has conducted his harvest work? Do you believe that he has had during that time a faithful and wise servant [Russell] through whom he directed his work and the feeding of the household of faith? Do you believe that the Lord is now in his temple, judging the nations of earth? Do you believe that the King of glory has begun his reign?

“Then back to the field, O ye sons of the most high God! Gird on your armor! Be sober, be vigilant, be active, be brave. Be faithful and true witnesses for the Lord. Go forward in the fight until every vestige of Babylon lies desolate. Herald the message far and wide. The world must know that Jehovah is God and that Jesus Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords. This is the day of all days. Behold, the King reigns!

It's true that Jesus could already be king of kings since 33CE, and then some great event in the future may move his followers to speak as if his kingship has just been renewed in some power way: "Jesus has now taken unto himself his great power and had begun to reign." Just as the Psalmist could look at a new Temple, or a great victory and say that "Jehovah has become King." But nothing was seen in 1914 about Jesus taking his power and becoming king of kings. It took Rutherford nearly 10 years before he began moving that "kingship" date from 1878 to 1914. During 1914, Rutherford must have seen 1914 as a failure. After it passed, Russell even changed the end of the Gentile Times to 1915. Rutherford specifically admitted later that no one had discerned what had happened in 1914 or 1918.

The word "synteleia" itself (meaning the ending of things together) would not fit 1914. And "parousia" doesn't fit because Jesus only spoke of a very visible visitation for judgment, resurrections, and gathering the chosen ones. It's easy to claim it all happened invisibly, but it doesn't fit the scriptures. Even if parousia was being used in its most simple sense of an arrival and subsequent presence, there is nothing "invisible" about this particular visitation and presence. It would be like trying to claim that lightning is invisible.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

( But I thought you said they are ALL resurrected and transformed at the same time. )

I think they are all resurrected and transformed at about the same time. The WT doesn't say it knows for sure when it starts, but presents the idea that it could happen between 1914 to Armageddon. In fact, if it started in 1918, which was the original opinion after 1878 was dropped, then the idea was that ALL the previously dead anointed were raised at once in 1918, then newly deceased persons are changed in an instant.

I was pointing out how the "we don't really know for sure" style of the 2007 article would actually imply that it's not really known when "during the parousia" that this first resurrection starts. "During the parousia" could start as far back as 1914, then, in WT teachings. But even if all resurrections of all the anointed took place in the last two days prior to Armageddon, that would technically also be "during the parousia." The article had made a big point of the word 'during' without pointing out that this is also the Greek word for 'at.' If the translation had been 'at the parousia' it probably would have implied 1914 to the particular writer of that article.

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

But the problem seems that with WT,  there are three appearances

If there are three appearances, then that's what it is. But I agree that the Bible does not speak of 3. It definitely speaks of 2 appearances however. But no one says it must be limited to 2.

Each one of these appearances is also called a "reign" too. Jesus begins to reign over the congregation in 33. Then he begins to reign in his Kingdom in 1914. Then he begins the thousand year reign in just a few years. The Bible only speaks as if their is one reign of Christ, but again, this could be a matter of interpretation. 

[JW Insider]

On 7/25/2020 at 3:17 PM, Anna said:

Coming, arriving and presence.

There are different possible words to use. But when you compare the contexts of Matthew 24, Luke 17/21, and Mark 13 it's pretty obvious that the all the different words refer to a "judgment event." The word for coming/arriving refers to the same "judgment event" as does the word "parousia" or even "synteleia" in Matthew. The other synoptics besides Matthew never use the term parousia, but replace all those instances with a form of come/arrive/happen/occur/be. Still referring to a judgment event in any case.

(Matthew 24:3) . . .While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence [parousia] and of the conclusion of the system of things?”

(Mark 13:4) 4 “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are destined to come to a conclusion?”

(Luke 21:7) 7 Then they questioned him, saying: “Teacher, when will these things actually be, and what will be the sign when these things are destined to occur?”

 

(Luke 17:24-30) 24 For even as the lightning, by its flashing, shines from one part under heaven to another part under heaven, so the Son of man will be. 25 First, however, he must undergo many sufferings and be rejected by this generation. 26 Moreover, just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of man: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage, until that day when Noah entered into the ark, and the flood arrived and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise, just as it occurred in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building. 29 But on the day that Lot came out of Sodʹom it rained fire and sulphur from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 The same way it will be on that day when the Son of man is to be revealed.

(Matthew 24:27-30) 27 For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 28 Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

(Matthew 24:37-42) 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned; 41 two women will be grinding at the hand mill: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned. 42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because YOU do not know on what day YOUR Lord is coming.

[JW Insider]

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What was strange is Paul's words about "instantly change". No one in WTJWorg was never saw nothing like that from 1914 till today. Well, what really happened in 1914? Or any year before or after (Russell', Rutherford' etc. guessing)?

I don't think any Witness would expect to see this change happen when one of the anointed dies. And no one expects to see any who live until the parousia change until a time just a bit prior to Armageddon when the remaining ones of the Bride are expected to join Christ in heaven, and be able to participate in "judging the nations."

That's because there is a tiny loophole in 1 Thess. 4:15-17

(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)  For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death;16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.

The NLT puts it like this:

We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died.[fn]

It seems quite obvious that Paul was trying to comfort those who knew fellow Christians who had died. One might naturally assume that if some (Group A-"alive") survived to see the parousia begin, then those who had previously died (Group B-"buried") would have to wait untii the resurrection occurred after the parousia was over. So Paul said to comfort those with dead loved ones that those dead (Group B) would not miss out on anything because just before the "rapture" at the parousia, the resurrection of those who had died would happen in time for them to see the parousia, so that they would all go to heaven at the same time with those who were "raptured" or "caught away" (Group A).

But the WT doctrine puts no emphasis on the closeness in timing of the resurrection and changing of the two groups. The only concern of the WT doctrine is that Group A does not precede Group B. Group A could ascend 106 or more years after Group B was resurrected. Persons in Group A would not even need their lives to overlap with persons in Group B. The WT doctrine must posit a new group, Group C, who die throughout the 106+ years of an elongated parousia, and are changed upon death, dying "during" the parousia. Paul didn't need to have a Group C, because he apparently thought of the parousia as affecting Group A and Group B at almost exactly the same time.

[JW Insider]

22 hours ago, Anna said:

I have always taken this scripture to mean that there will be people pointing to visible signs that Jesus is here. Like that he is physically in one particular spot, in the wilderness, or in an inner room...and that there will be many such people, false Christs (and there have been).

The most direct meaning needs to make good sense in this context:

1. Jesus predicts a cataclysmic, catastrophic, spectacular event that no one can miss or ignore because it will involve the destruction of the greatest Jewish city its most important landmark, the Temple at Jerusalem.
2. The disciples, quite logically, ask for an advance warning sign that they can watch out for.
3. Because they asked for a sign Jesus repeats warnings about not being fooled or misled by signs because even though many events will happen, the end they are asking about is not yet.
   • They will see "signs" and see people who will make claims and predictions and perform signs and wonders, and they must make sure they are not misled.
   • Signs they might think are evidence of the end, and it might only be the beginning. In this case.
   • Looking for signs will do no direct good because this particular judgment event will come as if by surprise, like a thief in the night. While people are still grinding at the mill, getting married, eating, and drinking, etc.

Within that context, of people falsely interpreting signs, making false predictions, making false claims about their knowledge, falsely claiming to be the Messiah themselves, or even many claiming that Jesus is the Messiah but that only they can lead disciples to him with true knowledge only they know about.

(Matthew 24:4, 5) . . .In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many.

Note that it is possible that people will come on the basis of knowing that Jesus is the Christ, (not themselves) therefore even claiming that "Jesus is the Christ" and will still mislead many. This is much more common than people falsely claiming to be Christ themselves. It is more like the people Jesus described as "performing many powerful works in his name" but Jesus would still say, I never knew you.

Jesus didn't say that any of these might claim that Jesus had returned invisibly. But the effect was the same. They would claim that they had special knowledge of his whereabouts, as if he had gone off and returned somewhere.

And how would the disciples know that these persons who made such claims were wrong? Because Jesus parousia would be highly visible. Unmistakably visible. Think of the brightest lightning you have ever seen, or can imagine: from one extremity of the earth to the other.

22 hours ago, Anna said:

So in contrast, and in that context, when v. 27 says that his presence will be from one end of the globe to the other, suggests that it could not be a literal physical presence of a person, since no one can be in more that one place at the same time.

I don't think it refers a literal physical presence either:

(Matthew 24:30, 31) . . .and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity. . .

I always thought of it as the "brightness of his glory." The disciples had a glimpse at the Transfiguration. Paul had a glimpse that blinded him. John had a glimpse:

(Revelation 1:16) . . .And he had in his right hand seven stars, and out of his mouth a sharp, long, two-edged sword was protruding, and his countenance was like the sun when it shines at its brightest.

(Matthew 16:27) . . .For the Son of man is destined to come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will recompense each one according to his behavior.

Jesus said that even those resurrected or changed in that day, which is part of it, will shine as the sun.

(Matthew 13:43) . . .At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father.. . .

22 hours ago, Anna said:

But we will see his "manifestation" from one end of the earth to the other.

And it's not just "those with insight" who see this bright manifestation. I think the post responding to Arauna point about this was already copied over to here.

(Matthew 24:30) . . .And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

22 hours ago, Anna said:

Since flesh and blood cannot enter into the heavens, and those people will be transformed into spirits, that are invisible, how could then this whole scenario be visible?

That part does not have to visible to the rest of us. Paul's point in 1 Thess 4:17 for example, was about how those persons with new glorified spiritual bodies, whether resurrected or changed, would meet Jesus Christ. Just how spiritual bodies "see" cannot be imagined by any of us. But when the Bible speaks of angels or heavenly bodies, it often points out how these bodies are glorious, and too glorious for humans to look upon unless the human was somehow shielded from the full "power and glory" of the spiritual body. We know for sure is that the Bible associates Jesus coming on the clouds with "visibility" as in Matt 24:30.

When Jesus ascended the first time, the cloud was associated with a point in time when they could no longer see him as he evidently finally disappeared into the clouds. This was obviously not necessary to have Jesus float upwards, but effective for human description. So it seems like some of the glorious effect (like seeing the power and great glory, or being as visible as a flash of unimaginably bright lightning) is also to help the rest of us make sense of it. More than just an understanding of who is behind it all.

22 hours ago, Anna said:

When did that harvest start? WT says in the 20th century. 

The harvest must actually be after the wheat and the weeds have continued to grow together until it's time for the angels to gather the chosen ones. This must also be the parousia, synteleia, or "day of judgment" when the angels are sent out to the extremities of the earth to gather (harvest) the chosen ones.

This harvest period has been a problem from the beginning of the Watchtower's attempts to explain it.

Originally it was a harvest in the 19th century. Barbour had argued for a harvest only from 1874 to the end of it in 1881. Russell settled on 1874 to 1914. When Jesus was considered to be failing to arrive in 1914 for the "visible" parousia, Russell began moving it (and the Gentile Times end) to 1915, and then Rutherford claimed that Jesus had actually arrived/returned in 1918, so that Rutherford changed the range of the harvest from 1878 to 1918. There had also been discussions of how some of the original 1844 crowd must have been wise virgins, especially when they showed themselves ready to NOT give up on chronology, as Miller had. When the new date for the midnight cry was considered to have occurred between 1844 and 1874 (typically 1859/1860) some preliminary harvesting must have taken place from chronology-compliant virgins even before that point. Originally, the trumpet sounds were extended further back towards the beginning of the last days, starting in 1799. For example a very early Watch Tower on the topic (1880, p.152-3) says that trumpet associated with reaping the first fruits of the Gospel Age went back to 1840: 

As to the time of our change, that it is at, (or during) the sounding of the "last trump,"—the "seventh," Rev. 10:7, and 11:15-18—and after the Lord himself has descended is plainly stated. We need not here repeat the evidences that the "seventh trump" began its sounding A.D. 1840, and will continue until the end of the time of trouble, and the end of "The times of the Gentiles," A.D. 1914, and that it is the trouble of this "Great day," which is here symbolically called the voice of the Archangel when he begins the deliverance of fleshly Israel. "At that time shall Michael stand up, the great Prince. (Archangel) which standeth for the children of thy people, and there shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation." Dan. 12:1. Nor will we here, again present the conclusive Bible proof that our Lord came for his Bride in 1874, and has an unseen work as Reaper of the first-fruits of this Gospel Age, (Rev. 14:16) in separating between wheat and tares and gathering the living into a condition of readiness for their change.

So the harvest here is especially 1874 to 1914. 1914 was of course, as it says above, the end of the time of trouble, and a time when there would be physical manifestations of the parousia, and FLESHLY Israel would be delivered.

I can't really see how any of this made sense, because we are still planting. No one continues to plant after the harvest has started.

This is also another of those places where trying to extend the period of the synteleia/parousia results in Bible contradictions. Note:

(Matthew 13:39-43) . . .The harvest is a conclusion [synteleia] of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion [synteleia] of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. . . .

The harvest is the "end of the age" when those who cause stumbling will be pitched into the fiery furnace and the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun. If that has not happened yet, then we are not in the harvest yet. If the wheat and weeds are still growing together, we are not in the harvest yet.

The Watchtower admits this:

*** w13 7/15 p. 13 par. 16 “Look! I Am With You All the Days” ***
Jesus ends his prophecy by saying: “At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.” (Matt. 13:43) When and where will that be? The fulfillment of these words still lies ahead. Jesus foretold, not an activity currently taking place on earth, but a future event occurring in heaven.

As the footnote admits, for many years we tried to make this apply to the long period of the parousia when the preaching work occurred.

*** w13 7/15 p. 13 “Look! I Am With You All the Days” ***
However, Matthew 13:43 points to the time when they will shine brightly in the heavenly Kingdom. Previously, we thought that both scriptures referred to the same activity—the preaching work.

But now we move this "harvest" into the future, but still claim we are in the time of the harvest, and planting (the preaching work).

[Witness]

Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man is seated on the throne of his glory, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.  Matt 19:28

There is no way they could “judge the twelve tribes of Israel” - the anointed, who lived throughout a 2,000 year period, unless they were in heaven with Christ.

1 Cor 6:3 – “Don't you know that we will judge angels -- how much more matters of this life?”

Eph 2:26 – “He also raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus”

[Arauna]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

redicts a cataclysmic, catastrophic, spectacular event that no one can miss or ignore

His own disciples did not believe him when he fist uttered these words so how would worldly people react?  Only after they saw and believed Jesus' resurrection would they remember these words and write it down so disciples could read it in the gospels. 

Other people may have heard rumors but definitely the MAJORITY did not take note -  just as in the time of the flood.  And that is exactly what Matthew indicates that most people would not listen and few would take note - just as in the flood. The gospels were a warning to the Christians to stay vigilant because  the generation itself took no note and carried on with their rebellions against the Romans - it means they did not understand the significance of the times at all.

When they understood the signs (the Romans in the city - fighting block to block to get control of it - it was already too late.  They did not show faith in Jesus to begin with so why would they suddenly believe his words?  Christians who did not flee when they were supposed to may have understood - but it was too late for them.   They understood events when it was too late. 

Similarly today - most Christians do not even know that they must watch out for the disgusting thing..... they are carrying on over the mark of the beast (electronic tracking system on their arm or somewhere else) when they do not even understand the significance of Jesus' death of his soul. They do not know the name Jehovah and do not understand the disgusting thing...… and that it will turn against all religion - that which we already know and believe.

[Thinking]

9 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

@JW Insider Thank you but we come back to this 1914 again.

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Could it, then, be reasoned that since Jesus was enthroned in the fall of 1914,  ******* 

 w07 1/1 p. 27 par. 9 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
Reasonably, then, anointed ones who die before Armageddon are resurrected sometime between 1914 and Armageddon.

( But I thought you said they are ALL resurrected and transformed at the same time. )

But, Quote @Anna

 

So there are two types of "appearances" :

The first is Christ's presence as the head of the congregation starting after his resurrection in 33 C E. (The WT agrees with that).
The second one is his appearance (manifestation) when he comes to take the remnant to heaven and judge, and every eye will see him because it will be the battle of Armageddon. (The WT agrees with that too). But the problem seems that with WT,  there are three appearances, 1.Christ's presence with the congregation after his resurrection in 33 CE, then interrupted with the great apostasy, then 2. restarted again in the time of the end (beginning 1914) and then 3. the manifestation where every eye will see him (Armageddon).

The plot thickens. 

*** w07 1/1 p. 28 par. 12 “The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! ***
Could it, then, be reasoned that since Jesus was enthroned in the fall of 1914, the resurrection of his faithful anointed followers began three and a half years later, in the spring of 1918? That is an interesting possibility. Although this cannot be directly confirmed in the Bible, it is not out of harmony with other scriptures that indicate that the first resurrection got under way soon after Christ’s presence began.

But is it out of harmony with other scriptures ? As Anna mentions above it makes three types of appearances not two. 

What Bible evidence is there that 'proves' Jesus was 'enthroned' in 1914 ? And was this a second 'appearance' ?  If so then it seems Anna has a point about there being three appearances. 

My mind seriously boggles. At 70 years old it's all too much for me. 

Take heart you are not alone with your boggled mind.....Jehovah’s people have never got it all right at any given time he has had a people...why expect it of today?

Your/our confusion is just a testing of our faith...so don’t feel bad about it...

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)  For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death;16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.

By reading Paul's words, i would conclude how all that already happened in his time. Paul under inspiration wrote about him and some other people ( he said - "we") who will "survive presence". And after that "surviving" they will be "caught away in clouds". It is free to be conclude how Jesus "presence" happened in Paul's time.

He, Paul, speaking about it as he and them (he said - "we") will participate in that going to Lord. He was "inspired" to tell this. Under "inspiration" he made prophecy and future event that is sure and that will affect "their" lives (his and people he told about as - "we"), and not about some other people lives 20 centuries later. 

And, of course, another detail we have to take in consideration. No matter is number "144 000" literal or symbolic, Christian congregation/s in 1st century for sure had more than 144 000 (anointed) followers of Jesus. 

-----------------------------

What is the meaning of this described event? This was literal and visible to physical eyes and happened before Paul's words.

And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.  At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split  and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people. - Matt 27