Wasn't Jesus' supposed parousia/advent to be recognized only by those who had spiritual insight at the time?

[Arauna]

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Each one of these appearances is also called a "reign" too.

Yes - but different aspects of his reign is highlighted - it does not just pure rulership  i.e. such as ruling only over his disciples and having the authority over them, then ruling amidst his enemies as well, and then ruling over the entire earth...….. so his dominion (what he rules over) is slowly extended even though  he is an appointed king with authority. 

Just like in any rulership when one goes out to conquer you extend your rulership. Jehovah has appointed times for everything to take place.  Jesus was definitely not ruling over the entire world in this time because it is in the hands of satan and the wicked - even though he is a king.  That is why Jehovah as eternal king is mentioned as " Jehovah has become king"  This does not refer to Jehovah not being king before - but it refers to a new situation where he has taken over rulership once again.

[Arauna]

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Christian congregation/s in 1st century for sure had more than 144 000 (anointed) followers of Jesus. 

...1000 is about ten congregations of 100 each. and congregations do not function well in large numbers. Because they were persecuted, I do not think the congregations were larger than say 30 or 40 - and even that is stretching it. So that would give three congregations per 100 people X 10 = 30 congregations per 1000.  this would give 4,800 congregations within 55 years of Jesus' death.  I doubt it.  Also think how many dropped out due to Greek philosophies and other bad behaviors …..and persecution. 

The weeds were entering the congregations as well.... so by the time the weeds became prevalent I think only a third or half would have been filled. But even if it was more - that means that close to the harvest time the rest of the weeds will be separated. 

 

1 cor 15:51 'look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, ⁵²  in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during* the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed

During the last trumpet some will be changed.  Paul is saying that not all would die but that right at the end there would still be anointed on earth who will be instantly changed.  This event is not the same as the first resurrection.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Quote @JW Insider Within that context, of people falsely interpreting signs, making false predictions, making false claims about their knowledge, falsely claiming to be the Messiah themselves, or even many claiming that Jesus is the Messiah but that only they can lead disciples to him with true knowledge only they know about.

I can seriously relate this to the Governing Body and the Watchtower / CCJW. 

falsely interpreting signs = Signs of the times of the end

making false predictions = The 1960's through 1975. And even now 'We are living in the Final part of the Final day'

making false claims about their knowledge, = GB calling themselves the Faithful & Discreet Slave.

but that only they can lead disciples to him = You have to be a Baptised JW to be saved. 

[Anna]

Thank you for all your replies @JW Insider

 

In summary, as I understand it:

1. Jesus' coming/ parousia/presence although invisible (since he is a spirit) will be manifest in a physical way, like lightning flashing from one end of the earth to the other. At the same time, everyone, good or bad will be aware that this is the manifestation of Jesus, the king, and that he has come to judge the world. We know it as Armageddon. This is also when the  harvest will occur because the wheat (true Christians and those righteously disposed) will be separated from the weeds (false Christians) which will be removed from the earth.

2. Jesus' presence with his disciples till the conclusion of the system of things began in 33 C.E. when he was crowned king (WT interprets this to mean king over the Christians, but it seems like he was made king over the whole earth, although Arauna has made some good points about why this is is not necessarily so ).

All the above makes sense to me. However, we are still left with that secondary,"later application", (as opposed to the 1st century application) with regard to "the conclusion of the system of things" as being a period of time before Armageddon. If we do away with 1914, as there is no need for it if Jesus was crowned king over all in 33 CE , then there is also no need to solve the generation, but there still remain questions with regard to this specific time period.

In other words, where does the "revival" of true religion in the time of the modern day "last days" fit in?  (As the scriptures seem to indicate, and JWs believe). There seems to be plenty of evidence that apostasy did occur, as was predicted by Jesus, and therefor in time there had to be a separation of true Christians and counterfeit Christians. This though meets with conflict when we think of the idea of the two growing together as the weeds and the wheat until the harvest during Christ's coming/parusia/Armageddon because it could be understood that these two, the weeds and the wheat are intermingled, as in a field, and stay that way until they are separated at Armageddon. However, the Bible does say that in the time of the end true knowledge will become abundant, as opposed to apostatized knowledge. It is logical that people of like mind will gather together, and it fits in with the Bible students of Russell's day, and ultimately to our day as Jehovah's Witnesses worshiping together worldwide but in doctrinal unity. This is why I suppose Jehovah’s Witnesses are defined as a restorationist Christian religion as opposed to traditional "Christianity" which sprung up after the apostasy.

 

Christendom, although believing in some kind of judgement day in the future, does not occupy itself with the possible imminent second coming of Christ. I definitely give Jehovah's Witnesses credit in this regard, because since the beginning of their organized activity, the focus has been on relentlessly preaching the good news of the kingdom, the nearness of Christs coming to settle nutters on earth, and for Christians to be ready and finally to be found by him to be spotless and unblemished (coincidentally this was an item in tonight's meeting). In contrast, Christendom has done nothing to prepare their members for that day....to be ready and found approved by God.... although through the centuries it has acquired many converts (using very un-Chritian means) ultimately, it has taught them many untruths and caused much blood shed in the name of God. Surely, those who separated themselves from that kind of "Christianity" and grouped together were the wheat, and already stood apart from the weeds as if they had been harvested. But as you say the fact that the preaching work is still going on, means that the planting is still going on and  No one continues to plant after the harvest has started. "

 

On 7/27/2020 at 11:41 PM, JW Insider said:

*** w13 7/15 p. 13 “Look! I Am With You All the Days” ***
However, Matthew 13:43 points to the time when they will shine brightly in the heavenly Kingdom. Previously, we thought that both scriptures referred to the same activity—the preaching work.

But now we move this "harvest" into the future, but still claim we are in the time of the harvest, and planting (the preaching work).

I remember the WT and remember thinking the same at the time.....So what is the answer to this problem?

[JW Insider]

10 hours ago, Anna said:

I remember the WT and remember thinking the same at the time.....So what is the answer to this problem?

"Harvest" seems to be a simple enough concept. But it's a good question because the Bible is about spiritual matters, using physical analogies to help us understand. We don't always expect the same physical analogy to be a perfect fit to all the related spiritual concepts. There are several aspects of the Kingdom, for example, and therefore Jesus used multiple physical analogies that all help build up a clearer understanding. (i.e., "The kingdom is like a . . . "]

We live in "historical time" and must use concepts like "harvest time" "thousand year reign" "last days" "last hour" "times of the nations" (gentile times), "this generation." But Jehovah's thoughts are unimaginably higher than our thoughts, especially as he "knows the end from the beginning." Jesus knew the mind of his father, so some of his uses of terms will reflect this. Knowing the end from the beginning can include reading hearts in such a way that Jehovah can already see the "harvest" in someone, even during the "sowing" season. And from this perspective, multiple fulfillments of a prophecy can work out even if not all the details of one fulfillment would fit the next.

In addition, since these are spiritual concepts almost everything we know about the Kingdom from its overarching historical perspective and ultimate fulfillment will also have a corresponding fulfillment in our own life, our personal conduct, and our responsibilities in the world and in the Christian Congregation. Isaiah spoke of a kind of "spiritual" paradise in the nation of "Judea/Israel" for example. Paul spoke of already being "resurrected" to a new life, and already being seated in heavenly places. Therefore, in our personal lives, we "reap what we sow." As Paul said, based on Psalms 112:

(2 Corinthians 9:10, 11) ¹⁰ Now the One who abundantly supplies seed to the sower and bread for eating will supply and multiply the seed for you to sow and will increase the harvest of your righteousness.) ¹¹ In everything you are being enriched for every sort of generosity, which produces through us an expression of thanks to God;

In Israel physically, the disciples would have know that there could be a long planting season with various types of seeds to be planted at different times and several harvests across a couple of months depending on what ripened first. So it was especially in the context of Matthew 13 that we get this picture of a sudden, swift harvest carried out by angels. We might not have noticed that if Matthew had not included a second portion of that parable where the disciples asked Jesus to explain.

(Matthew 13:29, 30) . . .He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’”

Should note that the NWT breaks with its usual translation of kairos as "appointed time" and goes with "season" on this one. This allows for extending the harvest (and therefore the synteleia) over a century or more long period. If this "rule" had been followed, it would have read:

³⁰ Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the appointed time of the harvest,

Imagine how much trouble would have been avoided if "season" had been used here for the same word "kairos":

(Mark 13:32, 33) ³² “Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father. ³³ Keep looking, keep awake, for you do not know when the appointed time is.

It would have made it clear that we do not know when the "appointed time" is, but also that we do not know when the "season" is.

Compare:

(Revelation 14:15, 16) . . .Another angel emerged from the temple sanctuary, calling with a loud voice to the one seated on the cloud: “Put your sickle in and reap, because the hour has come to reap, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” ¹⁶ And the one seated on the cloud thrust his sickle into the earth, and the earth was reaped.

But this doesn't mean that harvest always had that same "sudden" aspect, controlled from a heavenly master, and angels. In Matthew 13, Jesus was the sower, and the fine seed were the sons of the Kingdom. But in other senses, as mentioned above, Paul could say that he was a sower, and Apollos a waterer, for example. Or even this illustration, where the disciples are reapers of a harvest:

(John 4:34-38) ³⁴ Jesus said to them: “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. ³⁵ Do you not say that there are yet four months before the harvest comes? Look! I say to you: Lift up your eyes and view the fields, that they are white for harvesting. Already ³⁶ the reaper is receiving wages and gathering fruit for everlasting life, so that the sower and the reaper may rejoice together. ³⁷ For in this respect the saying is true: One is the sower and another the reaper. ³⁸ I sent you to reap what you did not labor on. Others have labored, and you have entered into the benefit of their labor.”

[JW Insider]

8 hours ago, Anna said:

All the above makes sense to me. However, we are still left with that secondary,"later application", (as opposed to the 1st century application) with regard to "the conclusion of the system of things" as being a period of time before Armageddon. If we do away with 1914, as there is no need for it if Jesus was crowned king over all in 33 CE , then there is also no need to solve the generation, but there still remain questions with regard to this specific time period.

Jesus said that the harvest is the synteleia.

(Matthew 13:39) The harvest is a conclusion [synteleia] of a system of things, and the reapers are angels.

Therefore, there is no specific time period just before Armageddon. This also removes the contradiction we have created against Jesus' words that no one knows the times and seasons. If we say that we know absolutely that we were preaching in the last "measurable" generation prior to Armageddon, then we would be making Jesus out to be a liar. Anything can happen. The UN could actually ban religion just as we expect to happen in the next few years. But claiming that such a thing must happen just before Armageddon makes Jesus out to be a liar. It also causes trouble with the parable of the wheat and the weeds, where both grow together indistinguishably from a human perspective until the angels reap the world.

We should also remember that just because synteleia can be translated as conclusion, that conclusion need not be an extended time period. ("full end" is actually a better translation in the Bible's context.) We could be near the end of a season, and then suddenly everything is concluded, or consummated. You can get near the end of a novel and then in one sentence a conclusion sums up the entire story. We have learned to think of "conclusion" in a sense that was not in the Bible. In the Bible, the "conclusion" is getting near, the "conclusion" is approaching. Even though the disciples were only a few short years from the "conclusion" of a system of things in 70 CE, they weren't "in" the conclusion. The "synteleia" was a destructive conclusion to the entire age.

Note how Mark uses the verb form of the same word (synteleo😞

(Mark 13:4) 4 “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are to come to a conclusion?”

That translates a better sense of synteleia/synteleo as "conclusion." Literally, the term is about the final end of all things together, therefore the phrase "synteleia" of the "age". Other translations get even closer with their translation of Mark here:

(NLT) “Tell us, when will all this happen? What sign will show us that these things are about to be fulfilled?”

When the full phrase is used, "synteleia of the age," it's a way of saying "the end of all things." Peter used those exact words instead of the synteleia phrase.

(1 Peter 4:7) . . .But the end of all things has drawn close. . . .  (and 2 Peter details how this means the [figurative] passing away of the heavens and earth that now exist.)

If the NWT had used that phrase "end of all things" the idea of a long drawn out conclusion would be gone. For example:

(Matthew 28:20) . . .And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things end of all things.”

 

[Srecko Sostar]

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

We live in "historical time" and must use concepts like "harvest time" "thousand year reign" "last days" "last hour" "times of the nations" (gentile times), "this generation." But Jehovah's thoughts are unimaginably higher than our thoughts, especially as he "knows the end from the beginning." Jesus knew the mind of his father, so some of his uses of terms will reflect this. Knowing the end from the beginning can include reading hearts in such a way that Jehovah can already see the "harvest" in someone, even during the "sowing" season. And from this perspective, multiple fulfillments of a prophecy can work out even if not all the details of one fulfillment would fit the next.

If God already see "harvest" in someone, than all this passed (and future) times of examinations, trials, sufferings, misery, exams, tests, right and wrong truths, punishments from god or human, remorse and/or stubbornness for an act done or not done, calling people to join this or that church, searching for answers, fear of the future and fear of god’s final judgment, fear of disappointing god ...etc. are unnecessary. Almost vast of time. But God is eternal, He has all time.

Here we have question; Did god knew what will happen with Adam and Eve? And WTJWorg answer how god didn't want to go and look for their future because He respects free will and don't want enters someone’s privacy... ??!! Perhaps we all are part of "experiment"? :))

[JW Insider]

44 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

And WTJWorg answer how god didn't want to go and look for their future because He respects free will and don't want enters someone’s privacy... ??!!

I like this explanation. I think this is the best explanation anyone ever came up with to mesh free will and predestination, both of which seem possible from Jehovah's perspective (based on certain scriptures).

[JW Insider]

10 hours ago, Anna said:

In other words, where does the "revival" of true religion in the time of the modern day "last days" fit in?

I realize I had skipped this question.

Revelation 2 and 3 show that various congregations should at all times watch out for false teachings and that they might even go through phases of cleaning out false doctrine, immorality, and increasing their Christian "deeds." This is exactly what Russell and the WTS had tried to do, and it's being done in greater measure all the time.

(Revelation 2:18-23) 18 “To the angel of the congregation in Thy·a·tiʹra write: These are the things that the Son of God says, the one who has eyes like a fiery flame and whose feet are like fine copper: 19 ‘I know your deeds, and your love and faith and ministry and endurance, and that your deeds of late are more than those you did at first. 20 “‘Nevertheless, I do hold this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezʹe·bel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and misleads my slaves to commit sexual immorality and to eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent, but she is not willing to repent of her sexual immorality. . . . so that all the congregations will know that I am the one who searches the innermost thoughts and hearts, and I will give to you individually according to your deeds.

(Revelation 3:1, 2) . . .“To the angel of the congregation in Sarʹdis write: These are the things that he says who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars: ‘I know your deeds, that you have the name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Become watchful, and strengthen the things remaining that were ready to die, for I have not found your works fully performed before my God.

Those were just two of several examples. But they show how Jesus has been head of the congregations, who are responsible for greater accomplishments. The CCJW has done more than any others to accomplish greater deeds to more fully perform the congregation's duties regarding love, faith, ministry, morality, doctrine, and do this on an international scale. We are living in a time when certain methods are just now possible that were not possible before. Being alert to such types of "deeds" have included our ability to go beyond just "house-to-house" and make use of the printed page, transportation, radio, advertising, Internet. Staying alert to doing what we can, when properly motivated, is why we are blessed to be associated in this particular time period. And it seems like a pretty good guess that we are reaching the most critical of critical times. We don't actually "need" any chronology to tell us that it's time to lift our heads up because our deliverance is getting near.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

@JW Insider That last paragraph is definitely a joke. But as I said to  @Arauna, you people that are deep in the Org are blind, or choose to be blind, to the truth about the GB and the CCJW. 

 Quote :  The CCJW has done more than any others to accomplish greater deeds to more fully perform the congregation's duties regarding love, faith, ministry, morality, doctrine, '

The faith in the CCJW is faith in it's GB, not faith in God through Christ. So when the GB deliberately misuses scripture then the congregants don't know because they just believe the GB. 

Doctrine, 'the final hour of the final afternoon of the final day ...'  come on, get real. The GB calling themselves the F&DS, Is that good doctrine ? 

Love, GB decides they won't apologise to Victims of Child Sexual Abuse and gathers up money from everywhere to hide it offshore so as NOT to pay compensation to Victims. 

Morality, GB withholds Database containing 20 + years of Child Sexual Abuse information and continues to hide those Paedophiles within the CCJW. 

Ministry, But what it teaches one year is different to what it teaches the next year. And no, it's not new light, it's just new guesswork, because the GB and the helpers are neither inspired or guided by holy spirit. 

I'm sure I noticed you say that other translations had translated scriptures better or clearer than the NWT. And you also say that words can be translated differently. This causes a problem for anyone studying God's word, unless they know Greek well, and even then I think there are 'different types' of Greek writing.  

This has caused me to decrease my Bible reading as I see no point in reading what I'm not supposed to understand.

That is why I am so sure that a True Anointed will appear on the scene a few years before Armageddon. To quote @Anna However, the Bible does say that in the time of the end true knowledge will become abundant, as opposed to apostatized knowledge.

As others have said before, if it is true knowledge it will not need replacing or removing. It will be true knowledge that can be built upon, so that the knowledge will increase. 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Quote @JW Insider 

Every town in North Korea was burned down. It was actually a war against the civilians, which means that the US was directly engaged in terrorism. Some bombers admitted that every building over five stories high (residential or otherwise) was a target. If Russia threatened a border state (and they have) in the way the US continues continues to threaten North Korea from all sides, the West would be furious at them.

Yes and this is the country that controls the earth wide Organisation of CCJW. 

The American GB of the American religion, the CCJW. 

And their one motto 'Collateral Damage is not important'.

People are only numbers, boots on the ground. 

This is why there is such a great need for a TRUE Anointed from all parts of the Earth, not from America. 

Americans are brainwashed to have no true Christian feelings. All hype, no love, no mercy, no justice.

[JW Insider]

I moved the above post from @4Jah2me over here from a topic that wasn't really about Korea or the GB. These types of "trolling" comments were already going on over here, and hadn't yet started over on the the other topic.