JUST HOW BIG OF A DEBACLE, WAS THE PROPHESY OF 1975?

[TrueTomHarley]

8 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

“We have spent a lot of time trying to explain to them what we think is their moral obligation to participate in this scheme but they have to date declined to do so.”

The key words here are “we think.”

The WT thinks differently and their thinking makes more sense. To my knowledge, every other party in this redress plan is structured so that children will be separated from their parents—it is not optional—it is standard operating procedure. That being the case, it stands to reason that they should be penalized if they so separate children and then fail to protect them.

With WT, there is no program that separates children from parents. Almost all abuse reported is cases among the ‘rank and file’—those from elders or servants are unusual. 

So—it is “within the ranks” in the case of Jehovah’s Witnesses. In these other organizations, there is not even a means to track abuse entirely among ordinary members—let alone the supposition that anyone other than the actual perpetrators ought be held responsible. So the WT should sign on to some plan that equates them to groups that systemically separate children from parents? I think not, and so apparently do they.

Next thing you know Hyundai will be penalized for any abuse that occurs among its customers. No. The WT being substantially different, it is better to handle all cases on an individual basis rather sign on to some plan that lumps everyone together as though they all operate the same.

And, goodness knows, these things are often a wedge to drive in further concessions. Even a formal apology that some seem to feel is so important, will no doubt have huge implications in the world of lawyers—who will seize upon it as though a guilty plea.

 

 

[Anna]

9 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

It is interesting to read how author of article said this:  However, discussions of human laws on same-sex marriage relate to a political issue, not a moral one.

The whole point is that anyone can do whatever they want. 

Only if a person wants to serve Jehovah, then they must abide by his rules. They must hate what Jehovah hates. 

This is why it can be said that JWs are neutral with respect to what the world does. But they are definitely not neutral with respect to what the congregation does.

[Srecko Sostar]

7 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Aside from being confused on your application, what else do you have to substantiate your slander?

Remember what your slanderous comment is "WTJWorg and GB already accepted "gay rights" inside some specific WT rules." I asked you to prove it, not show me how confused you are about the subject.

I SUGGEST, IF YOU DON'T MIND, TO STAY FOCUSED ON "1975 DEBACLE" OR ANY OTHER "ARMAGEDDON DEBACLE" IN WTJWORG.

With this comment i will end my participation  about "gay issue" :))

I’m Attracted to the Same Sex—Does That Mean I’m Gay? 

Not at all!

Fact: In many cases, same-sex attraction is nothing more than a passing phase.

But what if your attraction to the same sex seems to be more than a passing phase? Is it cruel of God to tell someone who is attracted to the same sex to avoid homosexuality?

If you answered yes to that last question, you should know that such reasoning is based on the flawed notion that humans must act on their sexual impulses. The Bible dignifies humans by assuring them that they can choose not to act on their improper sexual urges.—Colossians 3:5.

The Bible’s stand is not unreasonable. It simply directs those with homosexual urges to do the same thing that is required of those with an opposite-sex attraction—to “flee from fornication.” (1 Corinthians 6:18) The fact is, millions of heterosexuals who wish to conform to the Bible’s standards employ self-control despite any temptations they might face. Those with homosexual inclinations can do the same if they truly want to please God.—Deuteronomy 30:19. -https://www.jw.org/ase/bible-teachings/teenagers/ask/pressure-to-be-gay/

If someone says: “Homosexuals can’t change their orientation; they’re born that way.”

You might reply: “The Bible doesn’t comment on the biology of homosexuals, although it acknowledges that some traits are deeply ingrained. (2 Corinthians 10:4, 5) Even if some are oriented toward the same sex, the Bible tells Christians to shun homosexual acts.”

✔ Suggestion: Rather than get ensnared in a debate about the cause of homosexual desires, emphasize that the Bible prohibits homosexual conduct. -https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/g201012/explain-bibles-view-of-homosexuality/

Same source of spiritual knowledge and guidance with advice for JW members -  You might reply: “The Bible doesn’t comment on the biology of homosexuals, explains this issue in different way:

 

•  nor men kept for unnatural purposes (1 Cor 9)– Awake 1997 Dec 8 pp.14-15
• Christian cannot excuse immoral behavior by saying he was ‘born that way.’ But can anyone deny that their sexual appetite is perverted? – Awake 1995 Feb 8 p.16
• Here Paul specifically condemned both male and female homosexuality. He condemned homosexual practices as unnatural and “obscene. - Awake 1995 Feb 22 p.14
• And again, as in the case of homosexuality, the Bible views it as a crime worthy of the death penalty – Awake 1982 Jun 22 p.10
• We can be grateful that God does not change his standards just to satisfy the passing fancies or perverted desires of men.– Awake 1989 Jul 8 p.27

It seems how WTJWorg try to be closer for public and potential new members in a way that omits significant elements of one’s own attitudes, which are based on the Bible. In same time they send public message -"The Bible doesn’t comment on the biology of homosexuals ... but we know what Bible thinks about this sort of people."

In their magazines WTJWorg gave Bible proof how homosexuality is unnatural and by that Bible does comment on the biology, so how/why GB gives advice to JW members to say: The Bible doesn’t comment on the biology of homosexuals ?

 

 

[Srecko Sostar]

5 hours ago, Anna said:

This is why it can be said that JWs are neutral with respect to what the world does.

Public preaching program shows elements when JW people take stand for "Kingdom" and against "World". JW's are against this World because of their deeds.  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:19

Does JW want the world to be saved, to change its deeds/actions? Yes, because For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. John 3:17

Neutral = impartial = uninterested

Well, does this mean that JW's are uninterested for this world? Mainly yes. Public preaching is of only interest for JW's regard world and secular community. And about  human rights on their religious activity.

[Srecko Sostar]

8 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Not at all. I just like proving how insane the ex-witness views are. Normal people nowadays don't bother or care about religions inner workings. That falls to desperate people that are clueless in what they support and write.

So called "normal" people perhaps are not members of WTJWorg ?

Do "normal" people who are JW members care about "inner workings" of GB+Helpers+Lawyers+Elders? 

[Srecko Sostar]

moral obligation =

Point 1 - An obligation arising out of considerations of right and wrong; "he did it out of a feeling of moral obligation"

 A duty which one owes, and which he ought to perform, but which he is not legally bound to fulfill.
 These obligations are of two kinds 1st. 

Point 2 - Those founded on a natural right; as, the obligation to be charitable, which can never be enforced by law. 2d.  

Point 3 - Those which are supported by a good or valuable antecedent consideration;

 

15 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The key words here are “we think.”

15 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The WT thinks differently and their thinking makes more sense.

What is ground for moral obligation? Whether GB is missing any of these three points? What moral (or religious, or charity, or company) standard allows GB not to respond to a moral obligation, an official call from the authorities or the law?

I don’t think this is about whether JWs have or not have separate classes in which they teach young children, without the presence of parents, to their religious education. This is how an institution (WTJWorg) and each JW congregation reacted/reacts to the CSA in its circle.

WTJWorg and congregations failed that test.

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

With WT, there is no program that separates children from parents. Almost all abuse reported is cases among the ‘rank and file’—those from elders or servants are unusual. 

So says @TrueTomHarley 

He is deliberately stating falsehoods here.  And I will continue to look for and post every article I can find to prove that Elders and Ministerial Servants commit Child Sexual Abuse. 

Also, I will post every article concerning all levels of 'people with responsibility' within the CCJW that deliberately hide Child Sexual Abuse / Pedophilia within the CCJW by not reporting it. 

By not reporting CSA the Elders and others are allowing a pedophile to remain in the congregation unknown to other congregants and unknown to the public. They are allowing such a pedophile to continue to abuse children and to continue to break the law. 

Whilst there might not be a specific 'programme' of separating children from parents, it is obvious that such separating is allowed and approved of. I know it happens so no point in pretending it doesn't. 

It happens for personal Bible study, and, for ministry. 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

On 11/27/2020 at 3:28 PM, César Chávez said:

Not at all. I just like proving how insane the ex-witness views are. Normal people nowadays don't bother or care about religions inner workings. That falls to desperate people that are clueless in what they support and write.

So your type of 'normal people' just follow blindly then. Just as JWs blindly follow the GB. Your choice of course.

I would sooner serve God through Christ. But if you wish to serve your GB blindly without looking into the 'inner workings' of your religion, then you will judged on that. 

[TrueTomHarley]

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

And I will continue to look for and post every article I can find to prove that Elders and Ministerial Servants commit Child Sexual Abuse. 

These would be the only cases that correspond to the abuse cases of other groups—and they are a very tiny minority. If they were the rule, as is the case elsewhere, then yes—signing on to a redress plan might be appropriate.

But they overall make up a very small number. The vast majority of cases comes from a quarter that is not even tracked anywhere else—individual incidents that have nothing to do with leadership. 

It is why the ‘one size fits all’ model that fits most if not all other signees does not fit JW. 

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Whilst there might not be a specific 'programme' of separating children from parents, it is obvious that such separating is allowed

You think it is the elders’ place to forbid any child to leave its parents side, then.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

We seem to have crossed over topics completely but ...............

You JWs are so sly @TrueTomHarley  to only partly quote me is as bad as misquoting me. 

You think it is the elders’ place to forbid any child to leave its parents side, then. Tom says.

BUT YOU have said it does not happen. 

And what i said was Children separate from their parents for Bible study and for ministry and elders approve of it happening.  And I was a JW for long enough to do ministry in many places and see it happen.  In fact Elders that take groups split up families and send Children out with other Adults on the ministry.  I hope that is clear enough for you TOM.  One thing about being an EX JW is that I KNOW first hand what goes on in some congregations here in the England.  And I add to that by court cases from USA where it has been proven that Children have been raped whilst in the ministry with an Elder. 

But JWs including Tom don't seem to think the GB or previous Leaders are guilty of anything. Even though it has been proven that congregants were told NOT TO REPORT CSA to outside authorities. 

sorry this is all off topic. 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

9 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Correct John, normal people follow God and Christ, and since you as an ex-witness are NOT doing so by your actions, then you are contributing what scripture refers to redress. Does your kind have the authority under God's law to punish after a secular court has? Learn scripture, and what "redress" implies. 

This is an interesting concept that should be understood by all.

Well one of the things Jesus did was to reveal the wickedness of the 'religious leaders' of his time, and I am doing the same in our time.  Another thing Jesus did was to show love and concern for people, which I also do. I take positive action in warning people of the dangers of false religion including the CCJW, and the dangers to Children in such false religion.  I also tell people that there will be a 'coming judgement' time and that each person will be judged as an individual. I tell people that God is setting up a Kingdom and that 'chosen ones' will rule with Christ. I tell people that 'this world' is ruled by the devil and therefore humans would never be able to put things right on their own.  You see, I do not have to be a JW to know the truth from God's Word. I do not need permission from your Org or it's Leaders to teach others truth. But what I DO NOT DO is to pretend to know the 'day or the hour' or the month or the year of the coming Judgement.  I do not make threats about having to be in one particular 'religion' to 'get saved'. I DO NOT go beyond scripture.

So I follow  God and Christ more than your GB do. Your Leaders try to run ahead of God and Christ. Hence all their failed predictions. 

[Srecko Sostar]

6 hours ago, César Chávez said:

“The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

Sorry CC, some people, or specific people as GB or JW members could use this words from Bible as justification how religious leaders in WTJWorg (or anywhere else) are entitled by Jesus himself and have permission to teach, to make interpretations, to use instructions of all kind and burden people with self made doctrines that have to be obeyed. Nonsense! People, those who are not enchanted with WTJWorg and GB+Helpers would/will see the trap.

It is interesting, in fact strange, (if this Bible verse is correct ?!), that Jesus would gave such instruction, because He knew very well what and how many lies and deceptions were used by the religious leaders of his time.!!  He knew that the "scribes and Pharisees" did not have the spirit of truth in them, so how is it possible to believe that what they say to the people would be good and true ??

Jesus called them hypocrites and blind leaders. Verse 4 of same chapter say; "They tie heavy loads and put them on people's shoulders, ...." How they TIE heavy loads on them? BY WORDS!!!!! 

Well, why we should listen to and obey THEIR WORDS??!!