SECULAR EVIDENCE and NEO-BABYLONIAN CHRONOLOGY (Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, etc.)

[scholar JW]

JW Insider

Are you an apostate?

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

You keep showing your "cards" which is why it is so easy to see the reason you keep bluffing.

Scholar has no need of the bluff.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

If it goes against 1914, it doesn't matter how strong that cable of chronology is, it's the Devil's work!

Yes! It is not rocket science.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

It turns out that the NB Chronology supports the Bible's version of events very well. The Bible says that Babylon would be dominant in the region for 70 years, and the Bible was right. The Bible is saying that all these exiles (deportations) would be associated with those 70 years. And yes, there was an important exile when Jerusalem was destroyed, and another bigger one 10 years prior to that, and another one almost as big 5 years after that date, and likely another one around 20 years before that date. The last reported exile of Jews from the land was in the 23rd year of Nebuchadnezzar, yet the Watchtower publications are forced to make claims that ignore this one, and are therefore are not supported in the Bible:

Rubbish! NB Chronology has little to confirm the Biblical record, it makes no mention of the 70 years for starters Let us listen to the Bible for NB Period is silent on these matters. There was only ONE Exile but a number of deportations -BIG DIFFERENCE. 

 

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

The idea that Judah was completely desolate when Jerusalem was destroyed is contradicted by the fact that the land could not have been fully desolated until at least the 23rd year of Nebuchadnezzar . Almost as many were taken in the 23rd year as the 18th year:

(Jeremiah 52:28-30) . . .These are the people whom Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar took into exile: in the seventh year, 3,023 Jews. 29 In the 18th year of Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar, 832 people were taken from Jerusalem. 30 In the 23rd year of Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar, Neb·uʹzar·adʹan the chief of the guard took Jews into exile, 745 people. In all, 4,600 people were taken into exile.

No it is not. The events of Neb's 23rd year has nothing to do with the desolated state of the Land of Judah immediately after the Fall in 607 BCE as foretold by Jeremiah and confirmed by Ezra. This was simply a 'mopping up' operation of those naughty exiles who had fled to Egypt. Very naughty!!

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

So we can either accept the Bible chronology which doesn't begin the final desolation of the land until at least NEB23, or we can accept the WT chronology which puts the full desolation of the land in NEB18 (or NEB19 if counting from accession year). Personally, it makes no difference to me which Julian or Gregorian dates that scholars and Christendom and the WTS have put on these events. For me the choice is between the Bible chronology and the Watchtower chronology here. The secular chronology just happens to fit the Bible chronology, but that isn't necessarily so important. In fact this difference of a few years doesn't matter, as long as the WT is not insistent that the mistakes that got it to this point were somehow divinely guided. 

The only choice is that the desolation began at the Fall as confirmed by Josephus and not something 5 years later. The secular chronology mismatches the Bible Chronology by 20 years so there is no correspondence between the two schemes.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

t's a simple choice for my own conscience here again: Bible chronology or Watchtower chronology? I find that I can remain a Witness and still advocate for the Bible on these points, although not in the congregation where it would cause unnecessary divisions and contentions. But that is just my own conscience. Some might think it's important enough to advocate within the congregation, but I see this as giving too much attention to false stories and genealogies:

Bible Chronology is WT chronology because it is the only Chronology that elevates the bible and is wholly bible-based thus becoming a strong Cable.

scholar JW

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, scholar JW said:

This was simply a 'mopping up' operation of those naughty exiles who had fled to Egypt. Very naughty!!

There was a mopping up effort, I agree. But show me how we know this was in NEB23, or are you just guessing? And of course even if it was, we have Ezekiel's mention of inhabitants still in Jerusalem.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, scholar JW said:

because it is the only Chronology that elevates the bible and is wholly bible-based

Once the WT relies on secular chronology it is no longer wholly Bible-based. And you can't get a date like 539 without secular chronology. And according to INSIGHT, you can't get 539 without readings from astronomy.

I don't reject all of WT chronology, however. Only when it conflicts with the Bible does it matter to me.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, scholar JW said:

the ending of the Gentile Times in 1914 CE a reality proved by the outbreak of the Great War

The fact that there was a great war in 1914 is evidence that the nations were still active. Once ANY ONE of those nations remained after 1915 (according to the final version of the readjusted prediction) it was proof that the times of these nations had not ended. Once a Jewish nation in Israel was not the ONLY nation still standing in the entire world as of the end of 1915, this became further proof that the Gentile Times had not ended.

The Great War ended up proving that the Gentile Times had not ended in 1914!

[scholar JW]

JW Insider

18 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

There was a mopping up effort, I agree. But show me how we know this was in NEB23, or are you just guessing? And of course even if it was, we have Ezekiel's mention of inhabitants still in Jerusalem.

No guessing required just read the following portions of scriptures;

2 KI. 25: 25,26-  Those Jews who remained among the ruins of Jerusalem after its destruction had fled to Egypt

Jer. 44: 1-6- Addressed to those Jews in Egypt showing that both Jerusalem and Judah had been destroyed, desolated and deserted.

Jer.44: 26-28- Only a few Jews will escape death and will return to Judah one day. Thus, those Jews who were taken to Egypt in Neb's 23 rd year were those who had fled to Egypt whilst Neb had Tyre under siege his guard Nebuzaradan attacked Egypt caught up with Jewish refugees as stated in Jer52:20 AS ALSO explained in Jer 44:28.

Escaping to Egypt did the surviving Jews no good at all for 745 souls were taken Jer 52:20- most either ended up dead , or being taken into exile to Babylon. Even fewer will have managed to survive until the return in 537 BCE.

scholar JW

 

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, scholar JW said:

Wrong. Utter nonsense.The historical record via Josephus and the prophecies of Jeremiah make it quite clear that the land was made completely desolate at the time of the Fall in 607 BCE which was foretold to last  exactly 70 years

You are relying on Josephus who apparently couldn't make up his mind whether it was 50 years or 70 years of desolation after Nebuchadnezzar's 18th year? Where did Jeremiah say there would be 70 years of complete desolation. These desolations/exiles/deportations/desecrations were obviously happening all throughout the 70 years, until Cyrus.

If the Bible doesn't say there was exactly 70 years of "land completely desolate" then why do you need to add that to the Bible? The Bible associates the fact of these 70 years of desolations, etc., with the fact that Babylon would be given 70 years of dominance/hegemony.

(Jeremiah 25:11, 12) . . .And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.”’ 12 “‘But when 70 years have been fulfilled, I will call to account the king of Babylon and that nation for their error,’ declares Jehovah, ‘and I will make the land of the Chal·deʹans a desolate wasteland for all time.

In what way did "these nations" serve the king of Babylon for 70 years if you claim that Babylon dominated these nations for 86 to 90 years? 

*** w88 2/1 p. 27 Part 1—Ancient Egypt—First of the Great World Powers ***
Pharaoh Necho marched northward about 629 B.C.E. to intercept the armies of the upcoming third world power, Babylon. The Bible says that Josiah of Jerusalem unwisely tried to stop the Egyptian forces at Megiddo and was defeated and killed. (2 Chronicles 35:20-24) About four years later, in 625 B.C.E., Pharaoh Necho himself was defeated by the Babylonians at Carchemish. Both the Bible and the Babylonian Chronicles refer to this event, which gave the Babylonians mastery over western Asia.

The difference between 629 BCE and 539 BCE is 90 years, not 70.

The Watchtower chronology rejects the Bible's 70-year limit on Babylonian hegemony. I prefer the Bible chronology here, not the Watchtower's chronology. Besides the Watchtower's chronology is a broken cable. They have a series of disconnected events but they can't say at all who were the kings, nor the lengths of their reigns from this made up date of 607 for NEB18 on up to CYRUS' first year. It's clear that the WTS just made it up without evidence.

Also the WTS publications cannot create this pseudo-chronology without contradicting themselves:

*** INSIGHT-1 p. 463 Chronology ***
The Bible prophecy does not allow for the application of the 70-year period to any time other than that between the desolation of Judah, accompanying Jerusalem’s destruction, and the return of the Jewish exiles to their homeland as a result of Cyrus’ decree. It clearly specifies that the 70 years would be years of devastation of the land of Judah.

Turns out that this idea that it could only apply to the land of Judah, turns out to be false, of course, by the WTS's own admission!! When Jeremiah 25 is considered more closely, the writer recognized that the above statement was false, that "these nations" must have included ALL the nations around who were under the domination of Babylon for their 70 years:

*** ip-1 chap. 19 p. 253 par. 21 Jehovah Profanes the Pride of Tyre ***
He says: “These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above “the stars of God.” (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble.

And why are you so sure that you can impose a specific meaning on the words "desolate" when the same prophecies say that Babylon itself would become a desolate wasteland for all time. Has that happened yet? I'll repeat the quote form Jeremiah, but this time pay attention to the last sentence:

(Jeremiah 25:11, 12) . . .And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.”’ 12 “‘But when 70 years have been fulfilled, I will call to account the king of Babylon and that nation for their error,’ declares Jehovah, ‘and I will make the land of the Chal·deʹans a desolate wasteland for all time.

[scholar JW]

JW Insider

35 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Once the WT relies on secular chronology it is no longer wholly Bible-based. And you can't get a date like 539 without secular chronology. And according to INSIGHT, you can't get 539 without readings from astronomy.

The use of a pivotal date derived from an Absolute date is simply constructing a scheme of Chronology and if it wholly relies on the biblical data then it becomes by definition a Biblical Chronology

scholar JW

[scholar JW]

JW Insider

34 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

The fact that there was a great war in 1914 is evidence that the nations were still active. Once ANY ONE of those nations remained after 1915 (according to the final version of the readjusted prediction) it was proof that the times of these nations had not ended. Once a Jewish nation in Israel was not the ONLY nation still standing in the entire world as of the end of 1915, this became further proof that the Gentile Times had not ended.

The Great War ended up proving that the Gentile Times had not ended in 1914!

The fact of the Great War along with after signs proved that the gentile times had ended and that the Kingdom was born and modern history a long with prominent members of clergy in 1917 attested to this fact.

scholar JW

[scholar JW]

JW Insider

5 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

You are relying on Josephus who apparently couldn't make up his mind whether it was 50 years or 70 years of desolation after Nebuchadnezzar's 18th year? Where did Jeremiah say there would be 70 years of complete desolation. These desolations/exiles/deportations/desecrations were obviously happening all throughout the 70 years, until Cyrus.

Josephus as a credible Jewish historian gave sufficient testimony regarding the nature of the 70 years which is in perfect harmony with our understanding of the 70 years. Read the 70 year textual corpus.

8 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

If the Bible doesn't say there was exactly 70 years of "land completely desolate" then why do you need to add that to the Bible? The Bible associates the fact of these 70 years of desolations, etc., with the fact that Babylon would be given 70 years of dominance/hegemony

The Bible states clearly 70 years, plain and simple. that is why i have long maintained and finally observed by Niles' Thesis that the 70 years was of Servitude/Domination to/under/for  Babylon + Exile in or at Babylon +Desolation of Jerusalem,Temple and Land of Judah.

12 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

In what way did "these nations" serve the king of Babylon for 70 years if you claim that Babylon dominated these nations for 86 to 90 years? 

Babylon was now a World power and during this time many nations including Judah were brought into servitude but Judah's servitude or 'serving' was of a duration specifically of 70 years as foretold specifically by Jeremiah.

14 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

The difference between 629 BCE and 539 BCE is 90 years, not 70.

That is your problem

15 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Also the WTS publications cannot create this pseudo-chronology without contradicting themselves:

*** INSIGHT-1 p. 463 Chronology ***
The Bible prophecy does not allow for the application of the 70-year period to any time other than that between the desolation of Judah, accompanying Jerusalem’s destruction, and the return of the Jewish exiles to their homeland as a result of Cyrus’ decree. It clearly specifies that the 70 years would be years of devastation of the land of Judah

Correct. Most astute of those 'celebrated WT scholars.

16 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Turns out that this idea that it could only apply to the land of Judah, turns out to be false, of course, by the WTS's own admission!! When Jeremiah 25 is considered more closely, the writer recognized that the above statement was false, that "these nations" must have included ALL the nations around who were under the domination of Babylon for their 70 years:

*** ip-1 chap. 19 p. 253 par. 21 Jehovah Profanes the Pride of Tyre ***
He says: “These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above “the stars of God.” (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble.

Well if that interpretation is correct then please supply the specific 70 year periods for each one of those nations. Also, verse 11 requires careful exegesis and can have different viewpoints depending on translation of the Hebrew into English.

20 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

And why are you so sure that you can impose a specific meaning on the words "desolate" when the same prophecies say that Babylon itself would become a desolate wasteland for all time. Has that happened yet? I'll repeat the quote form Jeremiah, but this time pay attention to the last sentence:

(Jeremiah 25:11, 12) . . .And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.”’ 12 “‘But when 70 years have been fulfilled, I will call to account the king of Babylon and that nation for their error,’ declares Jehovah, ‘and I will make the land of the Chal·deʹans a desolate wasteland for all time.

Because I am sure and scholar is a mighty scholar. Desolate, desolation, devastations are well defined and explained by Jeremiah. We all understand what these words mean and if you do not then your education needs to be improved. What on earth were you doing in Bethel-proofreading comics?

scholar JW

[JW Insider]

1 minute ago, scholar JW said:

No guessing required just read the following portions of scriptures;

Just as I thought, this is not applied to NEB23.

3 minutes ago, scholar JW said:

2 KI. 25: 25,26-  Those Jews who remained among the ruins of Jerusalem after its destruction had fled to Egypt

In fact, it was in the 7th month of Nebuchadnezzar's 19th year (NEB18, per INSIGHT).

(2 Kings 25:8-26) . . .In the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month, that is, in the 19th year of King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar the king of Babylon, . . .  25 And in the seventh month, Ishʹma·el son of Neth·a·niʹah son of E·lishʹa·ma, who was of the royal line, came with ten other men, and they struck down Ged·a·liʹah and he died, along with the Jews and the Chal·deʹans who were with him in Mizʹpah [Egypt]. 26 After that all the people, from small to great, including the army chiefs, rose up and went to Egypt, for they were afraid of the Chal·deʹans.

The very next words here are about NEB43 and NEB being followed by Evil-Merodach (E-M) in the 37th year of the exile of King Jehoiachin.

(2 Kings 25:27) . . .And in the 37th year of the exile of King Je·hoiʹa·chin of Judah, in the 12th month, on the 27th day of the month, King Eʹvil-merʹo·dach of Babylon, in the year he became king,. . .

When was King Jehoiachin exlied? Read the JEHOIACHIN article in Insight, and you will see again that this is a jumbled up broken cable. Just a few disconnected points here and there, that the WTS publications cannot string together without making a lot of assumptions. Even assuming that the WTS is right and that Daniel is wrong.

*** it-1 pp. 452-453 Chronology ***
Jeremiah 52:28 says that in the seventh year of Nebuchadnezzar (or Nebuchadrezzar) the first group of Jewish exiles was taken to Babylon. In harmony with this, a cuneiform inscription of the Babylonian Chronicle (British Museum 21946) states: “The seventh year: In the month Kislev the king of Akkad mustered his army and marched to Hattu. He encamped against the city of Judah and on the second day of the month Adar he captured the city (and) seized (its) king [Jehoiachin]. A king of his own choice [Zedekiah] he appointed in the city (and) taking the vast tribute he brought it into Babylon.” (Assyrian and Babylonian Chronicles, by A. K. Grayson, 1975, p. 102; compare 2Ki 24:1-17; 2Ch 36:5-10.) (PICTURE, Vol. 2, p. 326)

*** it-1 p. 576 Daniel ***
Early in 617 B.C.E., Jehoiachin and other “foremost men,” also young Daniel (2Ki 24:15), were taken into captivity by Nebuchadnezzar.

*** it-1 p. 1269 Jehoiakim ***
Following the siege of Jerusalem during Jehoiakim’s “third year” (as vassal king), Daniel and other Judeans, including nobles and members of the royal family, were taken as exiles to Babylon. There being no record of an earlier Babylonian exile, this appears to place the event in the short reign of Jehoiachin, Jehoiakim’s successor.—2Ki 24:12-16; Jer 52:28.

So when Daniel speaks of the third year of Jehoiakim . . . INSIGHT changes this to an event in the short reign of Jehoiachin! What chutzpah to claim that our own WTS chronology is better than the Bible's.
 

[JW Insider]

Since we have begun looking at the Bible's chronology versus the Watchtower chronology, we should look at how easily the Bible chronology fits into the standard Babylonian timeline.

(2 Kings 25:27) . . .And in the 37th year of the exile of King Je·hoiʹa·chin of Judah, in the 12th month, on the 27th day of the month, King Eʹvil-merʹo·dach of Babylon, in the year he became king,. . .

For example, look how well that question is answered about the date of Jehoiachin's 37th year of exile.

625	624	623	622	621	620	619	618	617	616	615	614	613	612	611	610	609	608	607	606	605	604	603	602	601	600	599	598	597	596	595	594	593	592	591	590	589	588	587	586	585	584	583	582	581	580	579	578	577	576	575	574	573	572	571	570	569	568	567	566	565	564	563	562	561	560	559	558	557	556	555	554	553	552	551	550	549	548	547	546	545	544	543	542	541	540	539	538	537	536	535	534	533	532	531	530
N A B O P O L A S S A R (21 years)																					N E B U C H A D N E Z Z A R II (reigned for 43 years)																																											E-M		Nerig- lissar				N A B O N I D U S (17)																	C Y R U S
1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19	20	21	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19	20	21	22	23	24	25	26	27	28	29	30	31	32	33	591	35	36	37	38	39	40	41	42	43	1	2	1	2	3	4	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9

Just start in E-M1 which is 561 and go back 37 years on the timeline and you get 598. And this is exactly Nebuchadnezzar's 7th year. Now the Bible never says that Nebuchadnezzar reigned exactly 43 years, but notice how this perfectly matches the Babylonian standard timeline. The Bible gets another confirmation from the Babylonian timeline. Even the fact that it was the 7th year is confirmed not only in the Bible but in the Babylonian Chronicles, as you can see from the first quote from Insight in the previous post.

But the WT chronology now has only a 25-year period into which to somehow squeeze 45 years worth of kings' reigns between the first year of E-M and the last year of Nabonidus (17). But it gets worse. You'll recall that the Watchtower publications use the Nabonidus Chronicle to confirm that Cyrus conquered Babylon in the 17th year of Nabonidus. This means that Nabonidus also reigned only 17 years and ended that reign in 539. The INSIGHT book admits this evidence.

So we have all of the 43 years of Nebuchandnezzar, at least 1 year of Evil Merodach's 2 years, and all 17 of the years of Nabonidus. That's 63 of the 70 years the NB timeline from NEB1 to CYRUS1. This means that the WTS chronology must now fit 25 years of kings' reigns into the 5 years between 560 BCE and 556 BCE in the standard timeline. That's the only place left where the Watchtower's missing 20 years can be made to fit. 20 year of a broken cable of chronology.

[scholar JW]

JW Insider

7 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Just as I thought, this is not applied to NEB23.

Read Jer. 52:20

9 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

n fact, it was in the 7th month of Nebuchadnezzar's 19th year (NEB18, per INSIGHT).

(2 Kings 25:8-26) . . .In the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month, that is, in the 19th year of King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar the king of Babylon, . . .  25 And in the seventh month, Ishʹma·el son of Neth·a·niʹah son of E·lishʹa·ma, who was of the royal line, came with ten other men, and they struck down Ged·a·liʹah and he died, along with the Jews and the Chal·deʹans who were with him in Mizʹpah [Egypt]. 26 After that all the people, from small to great, including the army chiefs, rose up and went to Egypt, for they were afraid of the Chal·deʹans.

Agreed

9 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

When was King Jehoiachin exlied? Read the JEHOIACHIN article in Insight, and you will see again that this is a jumbled up broken cable. Just a few disconnected points here and there, that the WTS publications cannot string together without making a lot of assumptions. Even assuming that the WTS is right and that Daniel is wrong.

*** it-1 pp. 452-453 Chronology ***
Jeremiah 52:28 says that in the seventh year of Nebuchadnezzar (or Nebuchadrezzar) the first group of Jewish exiles was taken to Babylon. In harmony with this, a cuneiform inscription of the Babylonian Chronicle (British Museum 21946) states: “The seventh year: In the month Kislev the king of Akkad mustered his army and marched to Hattu. He encamped against the city of Judah and on the second day of the month Adar he captured the city (and) seized (its) king [Jehoiachin]. A king of his own choice [Zedekiah] he appointed in the city (and) taking the vast tribute he brought it into Babylon.” (Assyrian and Babylonian Chronicles, by A. K. Grayson, 1975, p. 102; compare 2Ki 24:1-17; 2Ch 36:5-10.) (PICTURE, Vol. 2, p. 326)

*** it-1 p. 576 Daniel ***
Early in 617 B.C.E., Jehoiachin and other “foremost men,” also young Daniel (2Ki 24:15), were taken into captivity by Nebuchadnezzar.

*** it-1 p. 1269 Jehoiakim ***
Following the siege of Jerusalem during Jehoiakim’s “third year” (as vassal king), Daniel and other Judeans, including nobles and members of the royal family, were taken as exiles to Babylon. There being no record of an earlier Babylonian exile, this appears to place the event in the short reign of Jehoiachin, Jehoiakim’s successor.—2Ki 24:12-16; Jer 52:28.

So when Daniel speaks of the third year of Jehoiakim . . . INSIGHT changes this to an event in the short reign of Jehoiachin! What chutzpah to claim that our own WTS chronology is better than the Bible's.

Read it again carefully!! Daniel's 'third year of Jehoiakim' is not that of his 3rd regnal year but that of his 'kingship'-NWT, or vassalage as again attested by Josephus and many other scholars.

scholar JW