SECULAR EVIDENCE and NEO-BABYLONIAN CHRONOLOGY (Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, etc.)

[Ann O'Maly]

🤣 at Cesar's Googling and lengthy, but irrelevant, copy-and-pastes in a vain attempt to hide his embarrassing blunder, and that further drive home the point that he had no clue what Gertoux or I were talking about.

 👋👋👋 Well done!

[Ann O'Maly]

3 hours ago, César Chávez said:

[Quoting Francesca Rochberg's In the Path of the Moon: Babylonian Celestial Divination and Its Legacy (2010), p.363-4]

"As discussed earlier the 360 ideal calendar days could have been transformed into ecliptical degrees by associating intervals of solar risings along the horizon with the 12 ideal months. The sun would stay in each of the twelve arcs for 30 days, giving rise to a numerically identified solar path divided into twelve portions of 30 units each, called UŠ. This, as posited by Brack-Bernsen and Hunger, is a plausible derivation of the twelve zodiacal signs and the 360 degrees of the ecliptic."

The answer was even there in your random c&p's. You're too much of a giant nitwit to have noticed! 🤣🤣🤣

[Arauna]

3 hours ago, César Chávez said:

THE BOOK OF THE STARS

Thank you - I made a copy of your notes and will look at it when I have more time.  I noticed that you quoted a section which equates star with worship of certain gods.

This is what AlanF and his ilk do not understand and therefore reject the equation of the stars with the predictions and spells and associated health of people - they just see it as pure science and not as a religion.  Science as we know it today did not exist in ancient times in the entire middle east.....they observed the planets and stars as part of their religion. I quote: " 

 'The zodiacal constellations were made objects of false worship from early Mesopotamian times onward. Certain qualities were attributed to each of the different constellations, and these were then used in astrological predictions based on the particular position or relationship of the celestial bodies to the signs of the zodiac at any given time. As shown by the text at 2 Kings 23:5, such use of astrology was introduced into Judah by foreign-god priests whom certain kings had brought into the country. Jehovah God long before had prohibited such star worship on penalty of death.—De 17:2-7.

Astrology was a predominant facet of Babylonian worship. The predictions based on the zodiac by her astrologers, however, did not save Babylon from destruction, even as the prophet Isaiah had accurately forewarned.—Isa 47:12-15;  '

There are many scriptures referring to the disgusting practices associated with the star and moon worship which originated in Babylon.  Ur and Haran (both cities which Abraham lived in before crossing the Euphrates  in 1943 BCE) were moon god cities.

For example the star of Ishtar was associated with Venus - if you do not believe me go study some more.....  I am writing from memory.... You will recall that Ishtar   and Baal worship was the male and female fertility gods.  Babylon had the Ishtar gate.  

"So he put out of business the foreign-god priests, whom the kings of Judah had appointed to make sacrificial smoke on the high places in the cities of Judah and the surroundings of Jerusalem, as well as those making sacrificial smoke to Baʹal, to the sun, to the moon, to the constellations of the zodiac, and to all the army of the heavens."

Alan F is so dismissive of anything does not does originate with him..... thank goodness I have done my own research - not because I want to be smart - but because I love Jehovah and want to understand the background of the bible. 

 

 

[Arauna]

3 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

nt that he had no clue what Gertoux or I were talking about

Maybe you are the one with no insight - because he may be correcting you and you are too obtuse to see it.

The fact that you cannot see the connection between the gods and the stars indicates that you have no clue of Babylonian culture.  They did not have science - religion was their 'everything' - superstition spells and all.

[Arauna]

14 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

However, keep giving them your wisdom. 

I do not think I have wisdom but all the studies I have done is to get a better understanding of the mindset and the cultures which  Israel was dealing with.  It is imperative to understand the mindset of ancient nations if one wants to understand the reasons behind their actions.  

Today I was looking at Roman culture in the time of Julius Caesar and realized how important rhetoric was in the senate.....and everywhere else a person wanted to be noticed.     No wonder they looked down on Paul because he was highly qualified spiritually (knowing the mosaic law as a Pharisee) but did not display rhetoric in the Greek way (he must have trained in it but refused to come to them with worldly wisdom and high-class behaviors) but in power of Jehovah's spirit and in humility!

[Arauna]

8 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

Date is disputed. Other non-WT models a

Yes - but non-WT models accept the 50 years and not 70 years.  WT chronology fits all the biblical events and the number of years the bible talks about.  We put biblical chronology above secular chronology ..... because we accept the bible as word of God. 

Many false Christian religions do not care if things match up.  They believe in a trinity, immortality of the soul, Jesus did not really die because he was immortal - he did not receive immortality as a reward for faithfulness to God etc. etc. ....So if these fundamental teachings are not important to them how can one expect them to challenge a few wrong years in the secular chronology? 

[Srecko Sostar]

Apologize in advance for my ignorant participation :))

Perhaps it should be taken into account that numbers in the Bible often times (if not always) have a symbolic meaning. Even when they are literally expressed in physical life (e.g. 12 tribes of Israel).
Number seven and number ten are full of symbolism, so the same could be said for number 70 (7x10=70). Seven representing perfection and ten representing completeness.

Well, slavery and the uninhabited land and the influence of Babylon on the enslaved people and lands were to reach their fullness (of course that is relative fullness*) according to God’s prophecy. The limitation and narrowness of God’s plans, we makes in our understanding, described in the biblical books (prophetic and others) means that a way of answering is sought in a way that may mean partially or completely wrong conclusions.

* relative in a sense that is visible in claim made in OT how "God's Law and Covenant are perfect and will last forever". But we see how that is relative in terms of "Jesus' teachings or law and new covenant". So, it seems how nothing is perfect and forever, not even if it is from God himself. Forms and shapes, they change their appearance. Perhaps something else is worth to be called "forever" and that such a journey is of our interest. The goal is not to get to the place but to travel. :))

[Ann O'Maly]

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Maybe you are the one with no insight - because he may be correcting you and you are too obtuse to see it.

The fact that you cannot see the connection between the gods and the stars indicates that you have no clue of Babylonian culture.  They did not have science - religion was their 'everything' - superstition spells and all.

It's. Simple. Math!

360 / 12 = 30

F'goodness' sake!

[JW Insider]

12 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Yes - but non-WT models accept the 50 years and not 70 years.

This is completely false.

Non-WT models accept the 70 years. They fit the Biblical view that the 70 years was given to Babylon as the length of time that Babylon would dominate these nations all around. The Bible says this period would be 70 years, and THOUSANDS of stone tablets support the Bible's view that this was 70 years.

The Watchtower has turned this 70 year period into a 90 year period, completely unsupported in the Bible. Not only that but the Bible gives some evidence AGAINST this being a 90 year period.

I have come to believe that this was why you have so far completely avoided the Bible questions I asked.

[scholar JW]

Ann O' Maly

9 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

Date is disputed. Other non-WT models are out there that fit the 390 years with the conventional timeline.

Correct. There are other models but which one is correct?

9 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

As has been shown ad infinitum, Jer. 25:12 falsifies your claim that the 70 year period of the nations' servitude to Babylon ended with the repatriation of the Jews.

No. it does not. Jer. 25:12 clearly proves that after the 70 years had ended then Judgement against Babylon, its King and the land of the Chaldeans would come into affect. The 70 years of Jewish Exile ended with the return in 537 BCE as confirmed by Exilic scholars such as Steven M Bryan in his paper 'The Reception of Jeremiah's Prediction of a Seventy -Year Exile'- JBL, vol. 137, No.1, 2018, pp.107-126.

9 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

. is another subject beyond the scope of this thread and it similarly involves an erroneous WT starting date

Just another confirmation of the strength and integrity of that strong cable of WT Chronology

9 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

Again, WT interpretation of these periods is upended by sound exegesis and by WT following its own new approach regarding types and antitypes:

In fact, sound biblical exegesis supports WT interpretation of the Gentile Times and has nothing to do with typology of your mischief but firmly grounded in the historical realities of Daniel's day.

10 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

Neil, whatever WT fantasies you have swirling around in that stubborn skull of yours, you know what you've just said above isn't true. You know Young's articles well enough and are familiar with his conclusions. Doesn't your conscience prick you when you lie like that, especially when you can be caught out so easily? Have you no shame? Smh. 😦

"In this paper, the method is applied to all Scriptures in Jeremiah, Ezekiel, 2 Kings, and 2 Chronicles relating to the date of Jerusalem's fall to Nebuchadnezzar. It is shown that all texts involved are in harmony with themselves and with each other, and the only year possible for Jerusalem's fall is 587 BC."

- http://www.rcyoung.org/papers.html

"The conclusions from the analysis are as follows.

"(1) Jerusalem fell in the fourth month (Tammuz) of 587 bc. All sources which bear on the question—Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and 2 Kings—are consistent in dating the event in that year."

- Young, R.C., 'When Did Jerusalem Fall?', JETS 47/1 (March 2004) 21–3.

In fact it is your conscience  Ann that should prick you that something is wrong with current methodology even the latest proposed by Young has not yet been endorsed by current scholarship wherein 586 rather than 587 is highly  championed.

scholar JW

[Ann O'Maly]

2 minutes ago, scholar JW said:

Jer. 25:12 clearly proves that after the 70 years had ended then Judgement against Babylon, its King and the land of the Chaldeans would come into affect.

You've just confirmed what I've said! The 70 years end and Babylon is judged. When was Babylon, its King and the land of the Chaldeans judged, Neil, you dipstick? (Hint: it wasn't 537!)

5 minutes ago, scholar JW said:

In fact it is your conscience  Ann that should prick you that something is wrong with current methodology even the latest proposed by Young has not yet been endorsed by current scholarship wherein 586 rather than 587 is highly  championed.

So no apology for telling your big, fat, porky pie about Young and his conclusion about the year of Jerusalem's destruction. Smh. 🙄

[scholar JW]

Ann O'Maly

8 minutes ago, Ann O'Maly said:

You've just confirmed what I've said! The 70 years end and Babylon is judged. When was Babylon, its King and the land of the Chaldeans judged, Neil, you dipstick? (Hint: it wasn't 537!)

NO. Read the entire verse 12 because it refers to the fact that the King, is nation and the land would be become ' a desolated wasteland for all time'-NWT Such a process was not just a one off but would come into effect after the 70 years had expired which was 537 BCE  so exegesis cannot permit that such a prophecy was fulfilled with the Fall of Babylon in 539 BCE. This interpretation of these words of Jeremiah were fulfilled with the Return in the 'first year of Cyrus' according to the Chronicler which was after 539 BCE in 537 BCE.

18 minutes ago, Ann O'Maly said:

So no apology for telling your big, fat, porky pie about Young and his conclusion about the year of Jerusalem's destruction.

Unnecessary because Young simply employed a methodology to resolve the 586/7 BCE dilemma and his opinion favoured 587 BCE. Nothing to see here!!

scholar JW