SECULAR EVIDENCE and NEO-BABYLONIAN CHRONOLOGY (Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, etc.)

[scholar JW]

Alan de Fool

21 hours ago, AlanF said:

Another example of JWish ass-backwards thinking.

Jer. 25:12 is quite clear: When the 70 years are complete, or Upon the completion of 70 years, the king of Babylon will be punished. In other words, FIRST the 70 years are completed or fulfilled, and THEN the king is punished.

JW apologists have been so thoroughly schooled in ass-backwards thinking that they don't notice such things.

That's why they start with 1914 and work backwards to get to 607

Jer. 25:12 is quite clear that this is the judgement on Babylon that came into effect only after the 70 years had expired according to the Chronicler  was not at Babylon's Fall in 539 BCE but after the Return with the 'first year of Cyrus' and was characterized not by the overthrow of a city but the entire nation and land would become desolated.

Chronology, you ignoramus is about counting backwards.and as long as you have two key events in place one can go back or forward depending on one's pleasure.

scholar JW

[scholar JW]

Ann O'Maly

14 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

Yes! The king was certainly punished then.

Indeed. But worse was to follow for not just the kingship , but the nation and the Land would become desolate.

15 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

Why start the judgment in 537? Which king was punished in 537? Why not start the judgment in the 4th century CE when Babylon was a pile of rubble and the nation's punishment was complete? It doesn't work, Neil.

Anyway, contextually, Jer. 51:37 is talking about the desolation and depopulation of Babylon at the hands of the Medians and its allies (v. 27f.). When did that happen? It also talks about God's people having to flee for their lives during this same bloody battle resulting in the slaughter of the Babylonian army (v. 1-6, 45). When did that happen?

(Yeah, I guess we're straying into the nature of prophecy, how literally we're supposed to take it, and which cherry-picked parts are historically true. Another can of worms, lol.)

One starts at 537 BCE for it is the established date for the return with the issuing of the Decree in Cyrus; first year as sted by the Ezra the historian and confirmed by Josephus the historian.

Jer. 51:37 was certainly fulfilled by the time of the 4th century CE as noted by Jerome. The entire chapter, 51 contains the prophecy of judgement against Babylon which is of various stages of fulfillment which included the Fall in 539 BCE continuing throughout its turbulent history concluding desolation right up to our day. Just read the entire chapter as there is no need to 'cherry pick'.

scholar JW

 

[scholar JW]

Alan de Fool

11 hours ago, AlanF said:

The answer has been given repeatedly, by me, Ann, JW Insider, and perhaps others in this and other threads. Assuming you're not as stupid as ScholarJW Pretendus and know how to search for text in your browser (Control-F in Windows), search for Jeremiah 25:12 and see if you can figure it out.

Here, I'll give you a little more on that: the passage does not just say that Babylon will be punished, but that the king of Babylon will be punished. That was Nabonidus the main king who was deposed, and Belshazzar his viceroy, who was killed. Read Daniel 5 about "mene, mene . . .". Also Jer. 27:7 and 2 Chron. 36:20-21.

As for Babylon itself, it continued as a working city until roughly 700 CE, depending on how you measure "working". That's another 1,200 years.

Jer. 25:12 is quite explicit as to its meaning and timing so just read the entire verse and not that desolation was its fate not just a mere eclipsing by another World power.

scholar JW

[scholar JW]

Alan de Fool

8 hours ago, AlanF said:

Irrelevant scripture. Try Jer. 25:12, 27:7.

Agreed!

8 hours ago, AlanF said:

You'll never get the point if you can't manage to read the proper scriptures. So I'll help you. Jer. 25:12:

<< But when 70 years have been fulfilled, I will call to account the king of Babylon and that nation for their error,’ declares Jehovah, ‘and I will make the land of the Chal·deʹans a desolate wasteland for all time. >>

According to ScholarJW Pretendus, the beginning of this "desolation" began when the Jews returned to Judah in 537 BCE -- a completely nonsensical idea. My point is that there was no such desolation for another ~1,200 years.

Note that the scripture says nothing about either the city of Babylon or about the Babylonian empire, but about "the land of the Chaldeans". The "land" comprises more than the empire; the empire is a political entity, but the land is a physical entity. The political entity ceased to exist in 539 BCE. In the course of time, the physical entity fell into ruins and became "a desolate wasteland". Capiche?

Nonsense. The Bible does not give a specific event or timing for the desolation of Babylon as described in Jer.25:12  but according to Jeremiah and as quoted by the Chronicler the focus of Babylon's judgement occurred only after the Return.The judgement involved the Kingship, the Nation and the land which would all become desolate, extinguished.

scholar JW 

[AlanF]

1 hour ago, scholar JW said:

Jer. 25:12 is quite clear that this is the judgement on Babylon that came into effect only after the 70 years had expired according to the Chronicler  was not at Babylon's Fall in 539 BCE but after the Return with the 'first year of Cyrus' and was characterized not by the overthrow of a city but the entire nation and land would become desolated.

I hereby name you Wrongway Corrigan.

1 hour ago, scholar JW said:

Chronology, you ignoramus is about counting backwards.and as long as you have two key events in place one can go back or forward depending on one's pleasure.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Tell that to Russell and company.

[AlanF]

1 hour ago, scholar JW said:

Jer. 25:12 is quite explicit as to its meaning and timing

Indeed: FIRST the 70 years ends, THEN Babylon falls. In practice, the two were virtually simultaneous. Read Daniel 5.

1 hour ago, scholar JW said:

so just read the entire verse and not that desolation was its fate not just a mere eclipsing by another World power.

Desolation was its ultimate fate, irrespective of whether the 70 years ended in 539 or 538 or 537, you idiot.

[AlanF]

1 hour ago, scholar JW said:

Nonsense. The Bible does not give a specific event or timing for the desolation of Babylon as described in Jer.25:12  but according to Jeremiah and as quoted by the Chronicler the focus of Babylon's judgement occurred only after the Return.The judgement involved the Kingship, the Nation and the land which would all become desolate, extinguished.

Yes, we're well aware that you think the Bible is nonsense. That's why you can't make sense of it.

[scholar JW]

Alan F

19 minutes ago, AlanF said:

Yes, we're well aware that you think the Bible is nonsense. That's why you can't make sense of it.

Well at least unlike you I believe the Bible is God's inspired Word.

scholar JW

[scholar JW]

Alan de Fool

24 minutes ago, AlanF said:

Indeed: FIRST the 70 years ends, THEN Babylon falls. In practice, the two were virtually simultaneous. Read Daniel 5.

Really!! You have matters arse about. The 70 years ends then Babylon, its Kingship, Nation and Land proceeds into oblivion

26 minutes ago, AlanF said:

Desolation was its ultimate fate, irrespective of whether the 70 years ended in 539 or 538 or 537, you idiot.

Desolation is what Jer.25:12 is all about you idiot!

scholar JW

[JW Insider]

15 hours ago, scholar JW said:

Nile's Thesis gives a broad but in depth view of the range of views heretofore presented. In proof of this refer to the Appendix A, pp.68-72 in the above thesis.

Niles, himself gives an overview of many past scholars, and he is not confused at all by the scholarship. First, of course, here are the dates he accepts, as seen in Appendix C. This applies to the second question, of course, as he is also an "Exilic" scholar, too. He apparently understands exactly how the standard dates align with the Bible chronology.

Now you mentioned Appendix A, where Nles gives an idea of the broad range of views from scholars and Bible commentators, past and present. I don't see any of them confused about the chronology of those 70 years of Babylonian domination between about 609 to 539 (plus or minus a couple of years). Most of them chose that very chronology as the interpretation of Jeremiah's 70 years. Apparently every single one of them understood that chronology to be able to place the destruction of Jerusalem in 587-586 BCE, or the larger exile (e.g. Ezekiel, et al) from 598-597 BCE. Everyone has a right to their set of Biblical interpretations for the varying uses of the term "70 years" whether literal, close, symbolic, an approximation, or even believing (as Niles himself does) that various Bible writers may have used it to refer to multiple periods. But this does not imply any confusion about the chronology.

Every one of them understood the chronology of the time of Babylonian domination, or they could not have all consistently put dates like the ones pictured above, on all the Judean events. I will repeat again: Apparently 100% of them used the date 587 or 586 for the destruction of Jerusalem. No confusion about the chronology, just different interpretations of which start and end dates to use within that fixed chronology. For those who don't know, I'll reproduce the columns from the first 3 pages:

Did I mention this? Every one of the above accepts a chronology within a couple years of the standard chronology, and every one of the above accepts a chronology that is about 20 years different from the "special chronology" that the WTS promotes.

(I add that last part about the 20-years difference, because there are people who think that 605 BCE, above, is only 2 years different from the WTS chronology of 607. It's actually 18 years different. Because the WTS publications present the above 605 date as 625 BCE.)

The last 8 listed scholars from the final two pages (not included above) discuss variations of Biblical interpretation about the 70 years, but they are not at all confused about the chronology of the period of Babylonian years of domination in the region. I'll just pick any one of them to see what they say about the period of Babylonian domination:

The first one, Anneli Aejmelaeus, we don't have to look up, because Niles already tells us she understands the significance of 587 BCE (Jeremiah 25) and 597 BCE.

So I'll pick another and then look up whether Bryan and Albertz fit the criteria of dating the destruction of Jerusalem more than two years different than 587 BCE.

15 hours ago, scholar JW said:

I will give you two scholars: Steven M Bryan and Rainer Albertz who nicely address the Exile as the period from the Fall to the Return. 

Maybe next year, though. This should be my last post of 2020.

 

[JW Insider]

OK. It's 2021 now, I will move on to the second part of your answer, which is even more incorrect.

I asked:

Outside of the Watchtower publications, JWs or Adventists who defend an inherited chronology, can you give me a reference for any "Exilic scholar" who thinks it was more than 50 years between Jerusalem's destruction and Babylon's downfall by Cyrus? Can you show any "exilic scholar" who thinks that Jerusalem was destroyed within 2 years of 607? Can you show any "exilic scholar" who thinks that Jerusalem was NOT destroyed within 2 years of 587?

You answered:

5 hours ago, scholar JW said:

I will give you two scholars: Steven M Bryan and Rainer Albertz who nicely address the Exile as the period from the Fall to the Return. 

JSTOR gives me a couple of references that show you are wrong. The first is : https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.15699/jbl.1371.2018.222705

The End of Exile: The Reception of Jeremiah's Prediction of a Seventy-Year Exile Author(s): Steven M. Bryan Source: Journal of Biblical Literature , Vol. 137, No. 1 (Spring 2018), pp. 107-126

I quote from page 108, where Bryan shows no problem with the following date for the destruction of Jerusalem:

". . . the destruction of Jerusalem in 587/86" (p.108)

He is also aware that some scholars have made a point about the 70 year period from the (second exile and) destruction of the temple by Babylon (587/6) to the reconstruction in 516/515 since this also is a 70-year period (which he does not accept as the period referenced by Jeremiah, which he says had already been recognized as fulfilled.) [Note that C.F.Whitley, another example from Niles' "Appendix C" is a proponent of 586 BCE to 516 BCE, with full knowledge that 586 BCE refers to the destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar, and 516 to the reconstruction under Haggai/Zerubbabel.]

So your reference to Steven M Bryan is a failure.

Now to Rainer Albertz. Without looking, I have already come to trust that this was also just an empty claim.

So, here it is. Not surprisingly, you failed at this one too. Here is his chronology from the book:

Israel in Exile --The History and Literature of the Sixth Century B.C.E. by Rainer Albertz · 2003

Note: "conquest of Jerusalem, 2d deportation (July / August 587)." He sees that the Bible chronology fits the standard archaeological foundation for the chronology. These dates are also 20 years off from the ones promoted by the Watchtower publications.

Of course, I'm sure you already knew both of these attempts were failures before you even provided them.

[Arauna]

14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

don't believe any true scholars are confused

I do not believe scholars have any acceptance of the bible...... it is about being credible to peers who do not accept the bible.