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SECULAR EVIDENCE and NEO-BABYLONIAN CHRONOLOGY (Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, etc.)


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9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

No, it doesn't. I checked.

Check again, and this time use accurate knowledge as your guide.

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

You already proved that you didn't understand what at least one scholar was saying about the ancient scribes (John Steele) If you want to claim something specific, go ahead, but these vague and ill-formed claims have never gone anywhere.

This is so pathetic I won't respond.

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I don't argue proof. But, if you looked at it, I'm you would see why the evidence is accepted as absolute and definitive, even overwhelming. Even if every scribe lied about what historical stories to sync, that would be irrelevant. The point is that we can know what BCE year it was when Nebuchadnezzar's 18th and 19th year occurred.

If you haven't figured out a simple mathematical equation, how can you argue absolute proof. What's overwhelming is you cling to COJ garbage as if he was your blood brother. Isn't "Comfortmypeople" related to you and a teacher? Ask her how to properly subtract starting with 747 BC, or is it Anna in disguise, maybe both.

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Quite the contrary. It is natural history that is defending the observations of the Bible. We could ignore the Babylonian written history altogether. You have never been able to give one instance of natural history contradicting any of the other observations from natural history. And that's all this is about primarily, the fact that the natural history observations coincide with and support all the other natural history observations, creating a strong cable of chronology for the Neo-Babylonian period.

From your perspective of criticizing the Watchtower with your secular evidence, its NOT  natural history that is contradicting the Watchtower, it's your personal observation with the lack of knowledge about natural history that is contradictory.

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

You put a bunch of disjointed items under the heading "Secular Evidence." If you have a specific point to make, you should say it.

I used cycles from natural history. What cycles should I use not to get "disjointed" results? What an uneducated person like COJ and you along with every ex-witness out there would use? Do the math baby!! It doesn't lie.

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

567 BCE was realized in 567 BCE. Your premise about LBAT 1420 is false. But even if it were true, it would show that 567 actually was realized in 567.

According to whom? There is an error, therefore, if that cycle prediction is true, then it falls under 567/6 BC, NOT your insistence of 568/7 BC just so you can back track it to 587 BC when that cycle actually falls under 585 BC.

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

And that is one of the ways we know for sure that you should not be adding 19 year cycles. And why it's wrong to pretend you can use either 18 year cycles or 19 year cycles to fake a pseudo-chronology. However, their very existence can help you see why it is so very dishonest to try to re-adjust the archeological date by 20 years (a score) to reach a Watchtower "goal year."

I agree, the Watchtower doesn't use Astrology to confirm what natural history implies. This is why I reject using that nonsense that O'Maly puts out, and the nonsense you defend by agreeing with O'Maly's nonsense. Therefore, here you contradict yourself by your own actions. Think before you post!

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

ust like with "scholar JW," you are either showing extreme incompetence here, or plain dishonesty. You've had plenty of chances to learn what the archaeological evidence shows. I'm not engaging just to help you untangle your strings of logical fallacies.

Face it "insider" the only incompetence here lies with you and your stubbornness. This is the same reason I refuse to help you untangle your fallacies, since you lack the correct knowledge about natural history. The only one being "dishonest" here is you. Give it a rest.

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

537 is fine with me. 607 as the beginning of the 70 years is fine with me too. Both of those dates are within a a couple of years of the archaeological evidence.

Actually, 607 BC is accurate to that date, not a couple of years off. If VAT 4956 is a couple of years off, then why not accept it's off a couple of years of the same archaeological evidence. Just because you haven't figured out a simple equation that has alluded you here by my reckoning over a decade doesn't disprove 607 BC.

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

This might be useful to discuss at length. It's too easy to just claim that he is a very sloppy sychophant of Furuli's work, but he definitely didn't catch on to the places where Furuli showed the most dishonesty and/or incompetence. This is easily shown, but the example you offered about a two-year error has absolutely no basis in evidence.

Just keep in mind, Furuli is an educated person, while you are not. You're just an opposer with an agenda to disprove the Watchtower chronology at all cost. I suggest you throw everything your false heart has accumulated and start fresh with accurate knowledge. You have "disgraced" the Bethel House long enough.

9 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Exactly. You can use them and they provide good evidence that the observations were not referring to observations from 18 or 19 years earlier or later. Or you can ignore them and realize that the archaeological evidence stands very definitive and absolute without any concern about them whatsoever. Persons who try to use them to create 20 year differences (18+2=20, or 19+1=20) are just fooling themselves, or being dishonest. Always watch out for people who try that kind of trickery.

What do you think sorcerers and magicians of Babylon were using to predict future events that scribes used to sync for ongoing events. A 6-year-old can give you that answer. Once again, the dishonesty, trickery, and whatever else you want to define your deceptive ways, falls on you, opposers.

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

They would say they were born in the year FDR0 (accession of FDRs presidency) and died in the year REAGAN2. If you wanted to know how old that person was you would say they lived for all 12 years of FDR, 8 under TRUMAN, 8 under IKE, 2 under JFK, 6 under LBJ, 5 under NIXON, 3 under FORD, 4 under CARTER, and 2 under REAGAN. That's 12+8+8+2+6+5+3+4+2= 50. They died in their 50th year. We would also say the person was 49 years old, but it is also accurate to say they were in their 50th year. That checks out 1982 - 1933 is 49.

Good idea. Let's use your analogy. If a good starting point is 747 BC, then, what "dates" can be synced with your analogy? 747-18=729-2=727-18=709-2=707-18=689-2=687-18=669-2=667-18=649-2=647-18=629-2=627-18=609-2=607-18=589-2=587-18=569-2=567=18=549-2=547-18=529 BC. You might have something here with your analogy, you just proved how the Saros cycle was used. Therefore, if we just use your analogy of computation for natural history timeline and O'Maly's astronomical data and combine the use, for secular history evidence, then 607 BC is the start of the gentile times according to the Bible. Great job! Guys, you just solved a 40-year puzzle. This proves COJ is full of it!

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Let me try to lay this out for you (although this is more for any interested readers' benefit than for yours). The stars, planets, and Moon are components in a giant sky-clock that keeps perfect time. The 'fixed' stars are like the numbers spaced out on the clock's face. The planets and Moon are like the hands on the clock. Through their cyclical alignments with each other and against the 'fixed' starry backdrop, we can tell the time - the year, the month, the day. Now, to be a 'competent'

Since love doesn't keep account of the injury and covers a multitude of sins, I will not go back and show you what you have actually said. Besides, I've never wanted to make this into a contest of who is smart or not. I've never claimed to be smarter than you or anyone else here. This just happens to be one of my strong interests -- and of course it's an interest that is recommended in the Watchtower itself. It's easy to make mistakes in this area of study. I've made quite a few while learning a

It was already answered, by AlanF, and I will go ahead and answer it again in my next post. But you need to understand why "scholar JW" will always claim that it wasn't really answered. This type of question is a kind of game with "scholar JW." He has about 4 of these types of questions from what I can see. If you have looked up his former behavior on all forums where he brings such things up, you'll see that "scholar JW" believes this must be a trick question. It's easy to answer correctly

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7 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Check again, and this time use accurate knowledge as your guide.

If you see a place where I made a mistake, be specific about where and how. Otherwise it will look like you are just pretending.

7 hours ago, César Chávez said:

If you haven't figured out a simple mathematical equation, how can you argue absolute proof.

I haven't argued absolute proof. And it's clear to me that you don't need any mathematical equation. You can just find ANY observed and/or predicted date in Nebuchadnezzar's reign, and then find every other year of his reign by counting from one of those predicted and/or observed dates.

The WTS uses a "kinked" mathematical equation: It adds 20 to the archaeological evidence for all events prior to 539 BCE. It adds 0 to the years after 539 BCE until some 10-year exceptions are needed around 455 BCE, and then it goes back to the archaeological evidence again.

7 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Isn't "Comfortmypeople" related to you and a teacher? Ask her how to properly subtract starting with 747 BC, or is it Anna in disguise, maybe both.

As far as I know, "Comfortmypeople" is a Witness from Spain. I don't think he is Anna, just as I don't think I am Arauna.

You don't need to subtract starting with 747 BCE.

As I said, you can simply forget about 747 and go directly to any of the other years that are directly pointed to by the archaeological evidence for Nebuchadnezzar. If you want to know Nebuchadnezzar's 18th year because the Bible says that a certain thing happened in that year, then you can go directly to any one year shown in a piece of archaeological evidence (LBAT 1420) to see that his . . .

  • 1st year started in 604 BCE (according to the eclipse reading)
  • 2nd year started in 603 . . .
  • 3rd ... 602...
  • 4th ... 601...
  • 5th ... 600...
  • 10th ...595...
  • 11th ...594...
  • 12th ...593...
  • 13th ...592...
  • 14th ...591...
  • 15th ...590...
  • 16th ...589...
  • 25th ...580...
  • 26th ...579...
  • 27th ...578...
  • 28th ...577...
  • 29th ...576...

So if you want to know his 18th year, you can use the "natural history" from the archaeological evidence to determine that his 1st year was 604 BCE and then go forward 17 more years and get 587 BCE. (587+17=604). Just to double-check, you might want to check the reading for his 16th year and you will see that the "natural history" recorded on the archaeological evidence points to 589 for his 16th. So if you want the 18th just move 2 more years forward and you will get 587 BCE again (587+2=589). You can resolve any of Nebuchadnezzar's 43 years, even his accession year (of course), from any one of the readings shown above.

If you wish, you can even double-check if VAT 4956 fits the above for his 37th year. It does. Then you can go see if LBAT 1419 supports the dates of his reign as shown above. It does. Then you can go see if LBAT 1421 supports the dates of his reign as shown above. It does. Then you can check the planetary tablet SBTU VII 171 to see if it supports the dates of his reign as shown above. It does.

In fact you could throw out VAT 4956, SBTU..., LBAT 1420, and LBAT 1421, and still you would have the same years shown above from remaining archaeological evidence. You really only need one item to fill out all the other years. But, as it turns out, you have several with dozens of individual points to check, and they all point to the dates above --and any one date fills in all the missing years, too.

 

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7 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

Only degenerates and animalistic people use foul language. Get a life while the getting is still good. 

How about "offspring of a viper" and "whitewashed grave"? That's how Jesus described the foul, lying Pharisees. That's how I describe foul, lying scumbags like you and ScholarJW Pretendus. As well as using the common vernacular, which is far more descriptive.

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

As far as I know, "Comfortmypeople" is a Witness from Spain. I don't think he is Anna, just as I don't think I am Arauna.

 


This was a real case, in a kingdom hall. He was going to start the circuit overseer's talk. A little boy approached to say something to him and he, complacent, did as he attended, smiled and soon he got on the platform for his talk.

The overseer was surprised to see the faces of those seated in the front rows. They made gestures and signs with their faces, surreptitiously. In the end, he discovered the problem: he was wearing his trouser fly open.

The little one, as "he was at the right height" realized the problem, which no one else did. But, as I said before, the overseer ignored him. Too bad, it would have saved the embarrassment. The lesson: you learn from everyone, even the most seemingly insignificant.

I say all of the above because if even a little one can teach us, if we are humble enough, I have learned a lot from some of those who write in this forum. I am not ashamed to admit that I have learned a lot from @JW Insider. There are things that I don't quite understand because they are out of my reach, like all this enormous amount of technical information about chronology. And, by the way, in some things I disagree with him, although they are very few, really.

But I don't only value jwi posts. I have learned things too, and I have enjoyed reading those of many others, it would be unfair to quote them because it would leave me some.

Regarding Allen Smith aka CC and many more aliases. More than once you feel anger because some of us support the arguments of those who do not agree with you. The only answer I can give to people with your personality is this:
 

(Proverbs 26:4) . . .Do not answer @César Chávez according to his foolishness, So that you do not put yourself on his level.

 


 

 

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

In fact you could throw out VAT 4956, SBTU..., LBAT 1420, and LBAT 1421, and still you would have the same years shown above from remaining archaeological evidence. You really only need one item to fill out all the other years. But, as it turns out, you have several with dozens of individual points to check, and they all point to the dates above --and any one date fills in all the missing years, too.

Thank you for proving me right, and you're contended lack of knowledge is just one more attempt of confusing people with your gibberish and garbage approach to natural history. But, nicely done evading the obvious scheme you are hiding from that you, yourself laid out, and I made an example of. Your so, pathetic and anyone who agrees with you, they can't see the truth if it hit them in the face. 

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

As far as I know, "Comfortmypeople" is a Witness from Spain.

Then that person should be DF'd alongside many here. Not because you all go against the Watchtower, but because you sow division, and strife along with many other things that deal with "harmony" and "unity".

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

If you see a place where I made a mistake, be specific about where and how. Otherwise it will look like you are just pretending.

I just did. Who is the pretender.

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3 minutes ago, AlanF said:

How about "offspring of a viper" and "whitewashed grave"? That's how Jesus described the foul, lying Pharisees. That's how I describe foul, lying scumbags like you and ScholarJW Pretendus. As well as using the common vernacular, which is far more descriptive.

You have no God given right to use scripture with me, boy. You have gone beyond being equated to the Pharisees. What you are  is a blasphemer against God's Holy Spirit. Like I said, enjoy life while life is still good.

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8 minutes ago, ComfortMyPeople said:

Regarding Allen Smith aka CC and many more aliases. More than once you feel anger because some of us support the arguments of those who do not agree with you. The only answer I can give to people with your personality is this:

This is where you are wrong. I don't care if you don't agree with me. I don't care for you as a witness, pretending to be one. What I do care about is making it known who is a pretender of the faith here. You just said it yourself, you rather learn from a corrupt man, so you won't feel bad when you accept false facts. Therefore, JWI, yours, or any ex-witness opinion doesn't matter to me. I treat you all as apostates, and it should be that way for those that cause division and strife.

As for the Allen Smith scenario, take it up with JWI, TTH, Anna and all of those that had the Librarian kick him out, and keeps  people like Alanf, around. Double standards, all the time.

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59 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

You have no God given right to use scripture with me, boy. You have gone beyond being equated to the Pharisees. What you are  is a blasphemer against God's Holy Spirit. Like I said, enjoy life while life is still good.

HAHAHAHAHAHHA!!!!!

"Mah Big Daddy gon' kikyo ass!"

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Il y a 21 heures, JW Insider a dit :

Cela me rappelle un point majeur que les publications de la Watchtower et aucun Témoin n'ont encore tenté d'expliquer.

Il existe des dizaines de milliers de tablettes «datées» de la période néo-babylonienne. Ils ne sont pas répartis uniformément, mais une grande partie provient du règne de Nabuchodonosor, qui est de toute façon celui qui nous intéresse le plus. Il y a aussi des dizaines d'autres de ces lectures astronomiques qui indiquent toutes exactement la même chronologie que j'ai indiquée plus tôt. J'ai comparé plusieurs autres éclipses, et toutes donnent une excellente preuve cohérente que toutes les preuves archéologiques sont exactes.

  625 624 623 622 621 620 619 618 617 616 615 614 613 612 611 610 609 608 607 606 605 604 603 602 601 600 599 598 597 596 595 594 593 592 591 590 589 588 587 586 585 584 583 582 581 580 579 578 577 576 575 574 573 572 571 570 569 568 567 566 565 564 563 562 561 560 559 558 557 556 555 554 553 552 551 550 549 548 547 546 545 544 543 542 541 540 539 538 537 536 535 534 533 532 531 530
  NABOPOLASSAR (21 ans) NEBUCHADNEZZAR II (a régné pendant 43 ans) EM Nerig- lissar NABONIDE (17) CYRUS
  1 2 3 4 5 6 sept 8 9 dix 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 1 2 3 4 5 6 sept 8 9 dix 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 591 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 1 2 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 5 6 sept 8 9 dix 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 2 3 4 5 6 sept 8 9

 

Avec les comprimés «contractuels» seuls, il y a littéralement des dizaines de milliers de comprimés qui prennent en charge la chronologie ci-dessus. Il n'y a aucun des dizaines de milliers qui discréditerait ou falsifierait la chronologie ci-dessus.

Nous pouvons donc dire avec certitude que la chronologie étayée par l'archéologie est celle illustrée ci-dessus et que la chronologie de la Watchtower n'est absolument pas prise en charge pour chaque année antérieure à 539. Les publications WTS soutiennent les 17 ans de Nabonide, et les 43 ans de Nabuchodonosor, et la première année de Evil-Merocach. Cela laisse donc un écart de 20 ans entre l'EM2 et le NERI4. Un écart de 20 ans à trouver quelque part dans ces 5 années que les preuves archéologiques indiquent.

Imaginez qu'il y ait environ 30 000 comprimés qui soutiennent les près de 90 ans de la chronologie néo-babylonienne. S'ils étaient répartis uniformément, cela signifierait environ 333 comprimés par an. Si l'écart imaginé arbitrairement par la Watchtower existait réellement, cela signifierait que 6 666 comprimés sur les 30 000 trouvés sont toujours manquants. Si ces comprimés provenaient tous d'un même endroit, cela pourrait être une possibilité. Mais beaucoup viennent de grands temples, et beaucoup d'autres sont issus de contrats commerciaux personnels de centaines de personnes différentes.

Et bien sûr, si cet écart était une chose réelle, cela signifierait que toutes ces éclipses n'auraient jamais pu être prédites correctement, et que toutes les lectures astronomiques avant et après l'écart auraient été impossibles à simuler. Il n'y a absolument aucune raison d'imaginer un écart arbitraire de 20 ans. Les preuves bibliques correspondent très bien à ce qui précède, mais il serait presque impossible d'expliquer si l'écart imaginé théorisé par le WTS avait réellement existé.

Toutes les preuves indiquent que l'écart promu par la Watchtower est impossible. En fait, il n'est même pas possible de proposer où un écart d'un an pourrait aller.

La plupart du temps, la chronologie séculaire de l'histoire biblique n'est pas très bonne. On pourrait même supposer que s'il y avait une période de l'histoire où Jéhovah voulait que nous connaissions la date absolue et définitive de la 18e ou 19e année de Nabuchodonosor, par exemple, alors ce serait la période où toutes ces dizaines de milliers de les documents étaient protégés des éléments.

 

 

 

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    • By JW Insider
      An author from Finland named Pekka Mansikka has written several books and papers which, among other things, look to adjust the secular chronology to fit the Watchtower's chronology. For those who don't know, the Watchtower's chronology requires an extra 20 years of time somewhere between Nebuchadnezzar's reign and the beginning of the reign of Cyrus. This has the effect of pushing back any archaeological date in Nebuchadnezzar's reign by 20 years.
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    • By Israeli Bar Avaddhon
      Everything we read about the "70-Week" prophecy reported in the book "Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy!" (Chapter 11) is worthy of attention and demonstrates how accurate and reliable the word of God is even when pronouncing prophecies very distant in time. The historical accuracy and the numerous Scriptural references that gave weight and authority to the whole speech were also evident. Anyone who approaches the Word of God without preconceptions can not but be struck by this demonstration of power and wisdom on the part of God. The explanation of the 70 weeks is unexceptionable but can be said to be the same as other prophecies? What about those calculations on which many of us have based the hopes of a lifetime and that clashed with the criticism of the majority? We are talking about 1914. Is this also a prophecy of Daniel? Was this also treated with the same marvelous accuracy of the seventy weeks we have just read? Although it may not be easy, we try to be truly objective because understanding or not understanding the prophecy, like the rest of God's Word, can make much difference to our eternal future - John 17: 3; 2 Thessalonians 1: 8   WHAT DID OF 1914?   The book "Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy" on pages 85 to 97 explains in detail the dream of Nebuchadnezzar and the 7-time prophecy asserting that it indicates the coming of the Kingdom of God in 1914. It would therefore be profitable to take the book and compare it with what will be read below. Does Nebuchadnezzar's dream really prophesy the coming of the Kingdom of God in 1914?   THAT'S IT? Let's try to examine what is written in the book without prejudices. At a first reading it seems that Jehovah God wanted to give a lesson of humility to Nebuchadnezzar, which happened. The "seven times", at least for him, were seven years and this is confirmed by the whole story. Reading all this without preconceptions, it does not seem that we should look for other explanations more or less hidden. However, let us take the thesis that "the tree indicates a dominion and a sovereignty much greater than those of the king of Babylon. It symbolizes the universal sovereignty of Jehovah, the King of the heavens, especially with respect to the earth ". This means, first of all, that the Kingdom of God is comparing, in a certain way, to the kingdom of Babylon and this strides with many biblical passages describing Babylon as the greatest enemy of God's people. It also means that the "vigilante" (ie an angel of Jehovah) decides to overthrow the Kingdom of God and this is, to say the least, strange. Some will object that we must not look for similarities in every aspect of the prophecy but also decide which part of the prophecy must have a second fulfillment and which one could be arbitrary enough. After all, we have no other scriptural references to show us which details to focus on and which to leave out. So it is being said that the prophecy of the tree applies entirely to Nebuchadnezzar while only a small part would apply to the Kingdom of God. For the prophecy of the "seventy weeks" we did not need to break the prophecy to try to understand who was applied or if it applied to more than one person because the subject was clear and recognizable from the beginning. On the contrary, all the 7-day prophecy is built on a single verse that is what it says ... "The tree grew and became strong, and its same height finally reached the heavens and was visible to the end of the whole earth" (Daniel 4:11). Meanwhile, the writing says that the tree "becomes visible" to the end of the earth and not that "embraces the end of the earth" and the meaning is very different. The aforementioned book says: "the great tree represents the 'domain that reaches the end of the earth', which embraces the whole realm of mankind. Thus it symbolizes the universal sovereignty of Jehovah, particularly in relation to the earth. - Daniel 4:17 ". "Reaching the end of the earth" means that it extends the domain to the end of the earth while "being visible to the end of the earth" means that it is known, famous. AnyhowÂ… is not it a bit fragile, let's say risky, to build a series of prophecies (all linked together) on this single explanation? Note that the specification "particularly in relation to the earth" is due to the fact that the universal sovereignty of Jehovah is, indeed, universal, for which the tree should have been seen not only in the whole earth but throughout the universe. By specifying, instead, "in relation to the earth", we can exclude the skies from the vision and take the application for good. Anyway, we should ask a question. Is the fact that the tree reaches the heavens or the end of the earth itÂ’s a demonstration or even an indication of the fact that we are talking about the Kingdom of God? We always leave the Bible to enlighten us. Notice what Jehovah told Ezekiel in reference to the Pharaoh. Ezekiel 31: 1-8 says Â… “In the 11th year, in the third month, on the first day of the month, the word of Jehovah again came to me, saying: Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  “Son of man, say to Phar?aoh king of Egypt and to his hordes,Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ‘Whom are you like in your greatness?  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  There was an As·syr?i·an, a cedar in Leb?a·non,With beautiful branches like a shady thicket, lofty in stature;Its top was among the clouds.  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  The waters made it grow big, the deep springs of water caused it to grow high. Streams were all around where it was planted;Their channels watered all the trees of the field.  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  That is why it grew taller than all the other trees of the field. Its boughs multiplied, and its branches grew longBecause of the abundant water in its streams.  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  All the birds of the sky nested in its boughs,All the wild animals of the field gave birth under its branches,And all the populous nations were dwelling in its shade.  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  It became majestic in beauty and in the length of its branches,For its roots went down into abundant waters.  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  No other cedars in the garden of GodHello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. could compare to it. None of the juniper trees had boughs like it,And none of the plane trees could match its branches. No other tree in the garden of God could rival its beauty”. Do we note some similarities with the vision of Nebuchadnezzar? Both are compared to tall and mighty trees. Both reach high heights, up to the sky in fact the expressions "reach the heavens" or "reach the clouds" are equivalent - Compare Job 22:14; Isaiah 14:14; Daniel 7:13 Of both we notice the big difference with the other trees. Of both it is said that all the flying creatures and all the wild beasts find food and shelter. Now if we apply the principle that the tree that "reaches the clouds" must represent the Kingdom of God, then even the Egyptian empire should be an antitype of the Kingdom. Unfortunately, however, in this story there is no mention of the "times" and consequently it is not possible to count anything. If you think it's ridiculous that the Egyptian empire will represent the Kingdom of God, why should it be acceptable to the Babylonian empire? Jehovah goes on to say ““Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: ‘Because itHello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. became so tall, lifting its top among the clouds, and its heart became arrogant because of its height, Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  I will hand it over to the mighty ruler of the nations.Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. He will surely act against it, and I will reject it for its wickedness”. The Pharaoh was exalted, just as Nebuchadnezzar did, and for this reason God decided to humiliate him - Matthew 23:12 Nebuchadnezzar escaped with seven years of madness while Pharaoh's empire was besieged. Also this verse remarks the fact that God takes away and gives "the kingdom to whom he wills" (and in this case He gave the kingdom of Pharaoh to the "despot of nations"). Ezekiel 31: 12-14 continues Â… “And foreigners, the most ruthless of the nations, will cut it down, and they will abandon it on the mountains, and its foliage will fall in all the valleys, and its branches will lie broken in all the streams of the land.Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. All the peoples of the earth will depart from its shade and abandon it. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  All the birds of the sky will live on its fallen trunk, and all the wild animals of the field on its branches.Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  This is so that no tree near the waters should grow so tall or lift up its top among the clouds and that no well-watered tree may reach up to them in height. For they will all be given over to death, to the land down below, along with the sons of mankind, who are going down into the pit.Â’. Even this tree is cut down and humiliated (Jehovah will do this through the king of Babylon). Because of the many similarities with the kingdom of Egypt, are we really certain that the tree that "reached the heavens" refers to the Kingdom of God?   When we talk about 1914, are we really like the Bereans? Or are we "Bereans" only when we have to refute the doctrines of Christianity?   There is another interesting detail that should make us reflect. The Bible compares the heavens to governments, be they human or celestial. Applying this concept to the tree that reaches the heavens and whose other trees do not stand comparison with it, it would simply mean that this tree has the kingdom over the other (smaller) kingdoms and of Babylon the Great is said to have " the kingdom over the kings of the earth "- Revelation 17:18 The only legitimate parallel that you can do with Babylon, without fear of taking corners, is related to Babylon the Great because it is the parallelism that makes the Bible. Indeed, all the world empires mentioned in the Scriptures had, for a time, the kingdom over the other kingdoms. Cyrus, in fact, said of himself ... "I am Cyrus, king of the world, great king, legitimate king, king of Babylon, king of Sumer and Akkad, king of the four extremities (of the earth), son of Cambyses (Ka-am -bu-zi-ia), great king, king of Anzan, nephew of Cyrus ,. . . descendant of Teispe,. . . of a family (that) has always reigned ". (Ancient Near Eastern Texts, edited by J. B. Pritchard, 1974, p.37). Undoubtedly humility was not a characteristic appreciated by the Persians as well as by the Babylonians but in fact the kingdom had power over the other known kingdoms (so to be called "king of the four ends of the earth") and so it could be said that its height had reached the heavens and was visible or known to the ends of the earth. In the story of Ezekiel and in that of Daniel there is no reference, just anyone, to the Kingdom of God, on the contrary ... both accounts mention a judgment from God on enemy nations, proud and violent. Any chronological calculation should respect the subject in being and in fact this part of the Scripture is very different from what is said about the "seventy weeks" - Daniel 9: 24-27 In the account of Daniel chapter 9, one speaks clearly of the Messiah (see Daniel 9:25) and it is not necessary to read what is not written. Anyone who wanted to be polemical could discuss the start date from which to count the "weeks" or even the adduct method * (one day for a year) but certainly we can not discuss the subject in existence (the Messiah). It could also be absurd to discuss who the Messiah really was (which Jews are still discussing) but certainly we can not argue that Daniel chapter 9 speaks of the arrival of the Messiah! Instead, Daniel chapter 4 speaks of Nebuchadnezzar and his kingdom, while all the "understanding" concerning the Kingdom of God is built on four lines in the book "Pay attention to Daniel's prophecies!" That read: "But the great tree represents the domain that reaches the end of the earth, which embraces the entire kingdom of mankind. Thus it symbolizes the universal sovereignty of Jehovah, particularly in relation to the earth. - Daniel 4:17 "(chapter 6, page 87 of the Italian edition of the book). Does not this seem like a very firm statement with a very weak base? Let us try not to tell Daniel 4:17 what he does not really say because it is enough to know the basic rules of grammar so as not to be distracted by the subject. The subject is Nebuchadnezzar and God makes him understand that, because of the fact that he is exalted, he would have taken away his kingdom and given it to whoever He had wanted (exactly as He did to Pharaoh). In practice the one who really rules is the Creator and the other kingdoms exist only because He allows it - Compare Romans 13: 1 So there is no reason to believe that the tree (that is, one of the many governments that Jehovah has permitted in the history of mankind), actually represents the Kingdom of God. If someone wants to imply that the fact that God mentions His dominion is indicative that the tree itself represents His dominion (and is an incredible semantic acrobatics) then we can take the story reported in 2 Kings 19: 14-19 and do it same reasoning. “Hez·e·ki?ah took the letters out of the hand of the messengers and read them. Hez·e·ki?ah then went up to the house of Jehovah and spread themHello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. out before Jehovah.Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  And Hez·e·ki?ah began to prayHello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. before Jehovah and say: “O Jehovah the God of Israel, sitting enthroned aboveHello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. the cherubs,Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. you alone are the true God of all the kingdoms of the earth.Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. You made the heavens and the earth. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  Incline your ear, O Jehovah, and hear!Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Open your eyes,Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. O Jehovah, and see! Hear the words that Sen·nach?er·ib has sent to taunt the living God. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  It is a fact, O Jehovah, that the kings of As·syr?i·a have devastated the nations and their lands.Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  And they have thrown their gods into the fire, because they were not godsHello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. but the work of human hands,Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. wood and stone. That is why they could destroy them. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  But now, O Jehovah our God, please save us out of his hand, so that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that you alone are God, O Jehovah.” Hezekiah knew very well that Jehovah was "the true God of all the kingdoms of the earth" and he prayed that Sennacherib would be stopped in his intent to destroy Jerusalem. We know very well what was the answer of Isaiah which last part reads Â… “Because your rage against meHello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. and your roaring have reached my ears.Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. So I will put my hook in your nose and my bridleHello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. between your lips,And I will lead you back the way you came.” - 2 Kings 19:28 If we did the same reasoning as for chapter 4 of Daniel, then we might suppose that the "reign of Sennacherib" was also an antitype of the kingdom of God because he too had to learn (at his own expense) that Jehovah is "the true God of all. the kingdoms of the earth "or, in other words, "dominates over all mankind ". Unfortunately, even in this story there are no numbers, days, weeks or months to be calculated and therefore no reason to read "the coming of the kingdom of God" even where no mention is made of it. Is it possible that the strong desire to see the prophecies fulfill has influenced the intention and therefore pushed to read what was not actually written? This means that if you really want to see a second fulfillment of the story reported in Daniel chapter 4, you should respect the subject in being and that is Babylon. It is likely that the story of Daniel is simply telling the humiliation of Nebuchadnezzar and that the "seven times" mean only seven years but we can not be categorical. In this regard it is useful to reflect on the fact that even the humiliation of the Pharaoh, reported in Ezekiel, could have a second fulfillment as Jehovah says that he will "shake the nations" and this could be a reference to the Armageddon war.   So, without fixing ourselves too much with a specific date, in case the story of Daniel wanted to show us a second fulfillment of the prophecy, the report is actually saying: "Babylon will fall, will remain inactive for seven times and then rise again". This can only bring our mind back to the last mention that the Bible makes of Babylon - Revelation 17:5 The clues about Babylon the Great brought us to the nation of Israel so the question we should ask ourselves is ... "From what year we should start counting the 2520 years (ie 360 * 7) until we see the rebirth (if any) of Babylon? " From the story of Daniel the possible dates from which to count the seven times are two: 1) Since Nebuchadnezzar has had the vision or has fallen into "misfortune" (in fact, Daniel says "the tree is you" - Daniel 4: 20-22) 2) From the death of Nebuchadnezzar (if Nebuchadnezzar represents the kingdom of Babylon, his death is the moment when the tree is "knocked down" but it is to be noted that there is no reference to this in the narration of Daniel who, indeed, he says that the kingdom would be assured - Daniel 4:26) As far as the first hypothesis is concerned, it is impossible to have an accurate date because neither the Bible nor the secular history tells us in which year Nebuchadnezzar was expelled from his kingdom. This happened, obviously, after 597 a.E.V. (year in which Nebuchadnezzar brings the first Jewish prisoners to Babylon according to the secular date, there is a difference of 20 years with that of the slave who, in fact, puts 617 a.E.V.) and within 570 a.E.V. (if Nebuchadnezzar dies in 562 BCE - always according to the secular date - and the period of "captivity" lasts 7 years and the kingdom is returned to him presumed to have reigned for at least a year, 570 is the last useful year) . However in the first four chapters of Daniel we mention Daniel, Sadrac, Mesac and Abednego first as children (Daniel 1: 3, 4) and later as robust men (Daniel 3:12, 27) and all this before Nebuchadnezzar has the famous dream tree. This means that, from their deportation until the day when the king erected the image of gold, at least 15, 20 years passed. So if the Jews came to Babylon in 597 a.E.V. but they pass 20 years before the construction of the golden idol and having taken for good the secular date (562 a.E.V) it is possible to restrict the period from 577 a.E.V. up to 570 a.E.V. Obviously they are only estimates but the important date is the maximum time limit (570 a.E.V) so if from the deportation until the construction of the image had passed 15 years instead of 20, the starting date would be 582 a.E.V. but the last possible useful date would always be 570 a.E.V. The eventual rebirth of Babylon, if Daniel is talking about this, would have happened between 1943 E.V. (2520-577) and 1950 E.V. (2520-570). To reinforce this hypothesis there would also be the fact that the narration of his expulsion is the last story reported to Nebuchadnezzar. Few verses later, in fact, we no longer speak of him but of Baldassarre (Daniel chapter 5). It is reasonable to conclude, therefore, that Nebuchadnezzar had the vision in the last years, perhaps during the last decade of his reign.   The second hypothesis concerns the death of Nebuchadnezzar, which takes place, according to the secular sources, in 562 a.E.V. According to the slave, in 582 a.E.V. (see the book "Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy" chapter 7, page 99). Counting 2520 years we arrive at 1958 E.V. in the first case and to 1938 E.V. in the second case.   Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. "Babylon will fall, remain inactive for seven times and then rise again"   What does recent history tell us? If, as we have seen, Babylon the Great is the nation of Israel, this would corroborate the first hypothesis. The first hypothesis places the rebirth of Babylon between 1943 and 1950. Indeed, the "resurrection" of Israel took place in May 1948.   Knowing the fixation of human beings for dates and calculations, however, it is prudent to pay attention to the most important things. The secular dates can not be secure, based on findings and comparisons more or less incomplete, and certainly we can not base our faith on this - 2 Corinthians 5: 7 What would happen if the 597 a.E.V., as well as 607 or 537 or any other date on which we based much of the biblical prophecies (without there being a real reason for doing so) tomorrow proved to be completely wrong? The consequences could be very serious and not just from a human point of view - Amos 3: 1, 2 We must not take Jehovah's mercy for granted, so we must be cautious in our statements. Since we have no certainty that the "seven times" do not simply represent seven years, we should not lose ourselves in these speculations. Is not the most important thing to understand the identity of Babylon the Great? Those who have truly studied the Bible without preconceptions have understood that Babylon the Great is indeed Israel and this has understood it regardless of dates and calculations. This is a crucial aspect of prophecy because it is the clues that guide us in the subjects and times in which we are living, such as road signs, and not the calculations - Compare Matthew 24:32, 33 and 2 Timothy 3: 1-5 and do a contrast with Matthew 24:36 There is no temporal indication for the killing of the two clothed witnesses (see Revelation chapter 11) but we know that they are revealed at the end of the war. We know that the city called "Sodom and Egypt" is Babylon the Great, hence Israel, and as a result we also know which nation and events to watch carefully. That the Bible actually prophesises the year of his "resurrection" or not, is certainly interesting but not fundamental for those who believe that it is indeed the inspired Word of God. Fundamental, if anything, will be "get out of it" when the UN prepares to destroy it.   * However the Bible confirms the "one day for a year" method and also that this was the same method used by God's people - Ezekiel 4: 6; Luke 3:15 ** The Bible allows us to be "fully competent" then all the speeches made on 607 a.E.V. pro and contra, they are absolutely useless. Nebuchadnezzar's dream, as we have seen, has nothing to do with the Kingdom of God    
    • By Jack Ryan
      Watchtower has referred to Ptolemy's Canon as corroborating the accepted 539 BCE date, iirc, but otherwise pooh-pooh it as being unreliable.
    • By Israeli Bar Avaddhon
      The immense statue of Nebuchadnezzar's dream.
      Babylon comes from the north, according to what Ezekiel 26: 7 says (see also Jeremiah 46:10).
      Comparing Jeremiah 50: 9 with Isaiah 21: 2, 9 and Daniel 5:28 it is understood that the average Persian comes from the north.
      Reading Daniel 11: 3 understands that the "mighty king" is Alexander the Great, identified as the "king of the north".
      Reading Daniel 11:16, 20-22 it is understood that Rome is the next king of the north.
      If all the kings of the statue were "king of the north" ... the last king can be the Anglo-American empire, or the king of the south?

    • By TrueTomHarley
      They may no longer do anti-types at Bethel, having had too many blow up in their face, but that doesn't mean I don't do them. Ralph Kramden, the hefty loud-mouthed bus driver of the 'Honeymooners' TV show, is the antitypical Nebuchadnezzar.
      Each show he began by blustering. Each show he was totally humiliated. Each show he was contrite at the end. And each new show he totally forgot the lessons learned from the one before. So it is with Nebuchadnezzar.
      And what is it with Nebuchadnezzar and the magic-practicing priests? He picks a fight with them right out the gate in chapter 2 of Daniel:
      "Then the king said to them: “I have had a dream, and I am agitated because I want to know what I dreamed.” The Chaldeans replied to the king in the Aramaic language: “O king, may you live on forever. Relate the dream to your servants, and we will tell the interpretation.” The king answered the Chaldeans: “This is my final word: If you do not make the dream known to me, along with its interpretation, you will be dismembered, and your houses will be turned into public latrines."
      Why? What did they do? They are yanked out of bed to learn they must tell the king what his dream IS in addition to what it means? Now they will have to sit each in his house, without any arms or legs, and watch people come in to pee on their couch and poop on their carpet. There's bad blood between the king and them, somehow. How it came about is not described, but it hardly seems fair he should pick on them.
      Or does it? If the king made such demands, it is likely because he is fed up with their claims that they can do things like that. They are always playing him for a sucker with their air of religious mystery, and he has had it up to here. That's my guess, anyway.
      We're used to quoting Daniel 1:20 to show how, after a short trial period in which the Hebrew captives did little more than eat vegetables, the king found them "ten times better than all his magic practicing priests." We're used to saying it is because of God's blessing that Daniel was elevated so high. Probably so, but I'll bet it is more a reflection of how worthless he found the priests. It was a pretty low bar they set, and Daniel leapt it without fuss.
    • By PeterR
      So if this is the basis for your belief, then probably what you'll want to do is first of all find out which bible book your foundational scripture is in. (It's Exodus by the way.)
       
      Ex 1:6 - Eventually Joseph died, and also all his brothers and all that generation.
       
      It's not a complicated scripture.
      Let me ask you this. If you die in 2017 and all your brothers and all your generation also die at some point, what does "generation" mean if you don't impose any weirdness on the text? Do your precise birth and death times change the fundamental meaning of the word generation?
      Of course there are overlaps in a "generation". The only possible way for there not to be overlaps would be for each generation to have a batch of children be born at the same minute of a certain year, and die at a simultanous minute of a later year.
      But does your grandfather suddenly become part of your generation just because your life overlapped with him? Does that overlap of a few years between you and your brothers give latitude to distort the language to allow for President Kennedy to be of your generation even if your life overlapped with him?
       
       
       
       
    • By ComfortMyPeople
      An unexpected visit

      Characters: Angel (A) You (Y) Narrator (N)

      N- Imagine that an angel visits you today. He wakes you up in the middle of the night and says:

      A- Jehovah granted me choose one of his servants to inform Armageddon’s date, and I’ve chosen to you.

      Y- Wonderful! What a privileged man I am! When will it be?

      A- January 1, 2025. Now, I’m going to give further information about this date of capital importance

      Y- Errr, excuse me angel, thanks for this marvelous information, but my alarm clock is set at 5 AM, and I wish to sleep. Tomorrow I will have a hard day and I need to feel awake.

      A- What a lack of appreciation! If only I had known!

      N- The angel, sorrowful and turning its back on you, is ready to depart.

      Y- Please angel, don’t feel bad. It remains 8 years. I have no savings to live without my secular work. Next month my wife has a surgery, and also I need to ponder the education of my children. You aren’t going to think I take my children off from the school all these 8 years!

       A- I think if you were more spiritual…

      Y- One moment, I’ve just applied for the pioneer next month, and with my collaboration my wife is going to start the regular next September. What’s wrong with me!

      A- And what’re your plans for next holidays? Now you know for sure the Date! Would not you rather dedicate it to preach?

      N- The angel a little bitter, you a little worried.

      Y- Well… perhaps you’re right… one moment!

      A- Yes

      Y- The brothers at Bethel, missionaries and traveling overseers, do you think they are, in general, spirituals?

      A- Of course!

      Y- And don’t have they fully conscience of the closeness of the end?

      A- Yes, I think so

      Y- And, don’t they enjoy of their holidays these years?

      A- Well, I believe this, yes.

      Y- Look. If you only had said to me this date is, let’s say, is in a few months, perhaps I could have made some arrangements. But believe me, dear angel, I love Jehovah and I’m trying make my most every day, without any date in consideration.

      N- And they both say goodbye with affection

       

      Abraham’s example

      Some emphasis added: (Genesis 12:1-4) “And Jehovah said to A′bram: “Go out from your land and away from your relatives and from the house of your father to the land that I will show you. 2 I will make you a great nation, and I will bless you, and I will make your name great, and you will become a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who calls down evil on you, and all the families of the ground will certainly be blessed by means of you.” 4 So A′bram went just as Jehovah had told him, and Lot went with him. A′bram was 75 years old when he left Ha′ran.”

      What would be your reaction if someone promises YOU all these things? Would it not be logical to expect the fulfillment of these words in your own life? Let’s continue with Abraham.

      Some emphasis added: (Genesis 13:14-18) “Jehovah said to A′bram, after Lot had separated from him: “Raise your eyes, please, and look from the place where you are, to the north and south, east and west, 15 because all the land that you see, I will give to you and your offspring as a lasting possession. 16 And I will make your offspring like the dust particles of the earth, so that if anyone could count the dust particles of the earth, then your offspring could be counted. 17 Get up, travel through the length and breadth of the land, for to you I am going to give it.” 18 So A′bram continued to live in tents”

      Again, would it not be logical to suppose for Abraham to think he will receive these rewards during the span of his life?

      Now, some years after, about ten perhaps, these words happen.

      Again, emphasis added: (Genesis 15:13-16) “Then He said to A′bram: “Know for certain that your offspring will be foreigners in a land not theirs and that the people there will enslave them and afflict them for 400 years. 14 But I will judge the nation they will serve, and after that they will go out with many goods. 15 As for you, you will go to your forefathers in peace; you will be buried at a good old age. 16 But they will return here in the fourth generation…”

      “What? What does this mean? It was assumed that I was going to get your promises in my life, and now, you’re going to say me that I’m going to die, and my reward is postponed until a very distant future, for some remote descendants.” Perhaps no one between us find this hypothetic answer odd or rare, but did Abraham felt deceived? Well, the rest of his life, very known for all of us offers a clear answer.

      Conclusion

      Did Abraham need date information to serve God with all his soul? No. Why? Because he simple loved God. And here I am, like all of you. Serving to Jehovah decades after our thoughts about when the end should come.  Because our main motivation is, simply, love.

      What I’m trying to say with the little story about the angel visiting at night and the account about some passages regarding Abraham’s life is the danger of getting quickly excited with some developments, in the world or in God’s people. When I listen to some brother saying something like “look at the news today… China, Middle East, etc., the end is near” I always answer, yes, you’re right, but I also thought to myself “the same I believed when I was a child.” These recursive ideas bother me, because always lead to disappointment. I try to share the attitude of Abraham, attempting to serve Jehovah till the end of my days with all my soul.

       

    • By JW Insider
      The October 1, 2011 Watchtower says this date is important for two reasons. 
      *** w11 10/1 p. 26 When Was Ancient Jerusalem Destroyed?—Part One ***
      But why be interested in the actual date when Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar II razed the city of Jerusalem? First, because the event marked an important turning point in the history of God’s people. . . .
      Second, because knowing the actual year when this “ultimate catastrophe” began and understanding how the restoration of true worship in Jerusalem fulfilled a precise Bible prophecy will build your confidence in the reliability of God’s Word. So why do Jehovah’s Witnesses hold to a date that differs from widely accepted chronology by 20 years? [Emphasis added]
    • By Jesus.defender
      Yes....Watchtower 7/1879 page 8
      No.....Watchtower 6/1/52 page 338
      Yes....Watchtower 8/1/65, page 479
      No.....Watchtower 6/1/88, page 31
      Yes...Live Forever (old Ed.) page 179
      No....Live Forever (new Ed.) page 179
      Yes...Insight, vol. 2., page 985
      No...Revelation book, page 273.
       
    • By The Librarian
      Part of the series on:

      See attached images
      Anyone by chance have a PDF of these images combined? 
       
       
       
      See also:

       












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