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On 2/1/2021 at 9:37 AM, xero said:

Just arrived, and saw this thread.

You might find this lecture by James Tour of interest.

 

Just another form of Creationist religious doctrine. So-called "Intelligent Design" was so declared by conservative U.S. Judge John E. Jones III in the 2004 "creation trial" in Dover, Pennsylvania, where the school board had tried to require teaching ID. The Discovery Institute which promotes it refused to defend its doctrines in the trial, knowing perfectly well that they would not stand up under questioning by competent scientists. The then-darling of the ID people, Michael Behe, was shown to be not only incompetent as a biologist, but also a liar, having grossly misrepresented science books and journals. Behe actually admitted that he viewed astrology as a legitimate scientific theory. Behe, of course, accepts Evolution but believes it was God-guided.

Judge Jones made a number of clear statements in his final decision, including (

    Hello guest!
):

<<

... we conclude that the religious nature of ID [intelligent design] would be readily apparent to an objective observer, adult or child.

... the writings of leading ID proponents reveal that the designer postulated by their argument is the God of Christianity.

The overwhelming evidence at trial established that ID is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory. 

... we find that the secular purposes claimed by the Board amount to a pretext for the Board's real purpose, which was to promote religion in the public school classroom, in violation of the Establishment Clause.

>>

The so-called Christians who precipitated the trial were also shown up as liars, the Judge saying, among other criticisms:

<<

... the Dover School Board members' testimony, which was marked by selective memories and outright lies under oath ...

The citizens of the Dover area were poorly served by the members of the Board who voted for the ID Policy. It is ironic that several of these individuals, who so staunchly and proudly touted their religious convictions in public, would time and again lie to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the ID Policy.

The breathtaking inanity of the Board's decision is evident when considered against the factual backdrop which has now been fully revealed through this trial.

>>

Other observations:

<<

After the trial, there were calls for the defendants, accused of not presenting their case honestly, to be put on trial for committing perjury. "Witnesses either testified inconsistently, or lied outright under oath on several occasions," Jones wrote. "The inescapable truth is that both [Alan] Bonsell and [William] Buckingham lied at their January 3, 2005 depositions. ... Bonsell repeatedly failed to testify in a truthful manner. ... Defendants have unceasingly attempted in vain to distance themselves from their own actions and statements, which culminated in repetitious, untruthful testimony." An editorial in the York Daily Record described their behavior as both ironic and sinful, saying that the "unintelligent designers of this fiasco should not walk away unscathed." Judge Jones recommended to the US Attorney's office that the school board members be investigated for perjury.

>>

Just as the Dover School board Christians showed themselves unrepentant liars, so have the JW apologists posting in this thread. Arauna lied about Richard Dawkins but refuses to admit it. She and True Tom Harley claimed that prominent mathematicians have proved that something to do with Evolution is mathematically impossible, but cannot provide links to such 'disproofs' or even supporting arguments. And on and on.

At its root, 'Intelligent Design' is both a Creationist religious doctrine masquerading as real science, combined with the Argument From Ignorance ("I can't understand how this happened, so it didn't"), also known as The Argument From Personal Incredulity. Its proponents are known liars, and most of the major financial backers of its most prominent defender, the Discovery Institute, are extreme Right-Wing Christians whose goal is the establishment of a Christian Theocratic Government in the U.S. and elsewhere.

Jehovah's Witnesses who go along with ID and such are thus supporting "Christendom" and its doctrines, and violating Watchtower precepts against Interfaith -- just as much as are those who go along with the Young-Earth Creationism of  Christian Fundamentalists like Evangelicals and Pentecostals.

 

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This helped me to see the source of Alan’s enmity towards me. It is pure envy.

I'm making a catch-all place for the discussions on these topics that were currently under different topics/subjects. As I move old posts into this new topic, the oldest ones will appear to identify the starter/owner of this topic, even though that person didn't create this topic.

For the life of me, I cannot take this fellow seriously. With a level of abuse (granted, I provoked it here, but it is just so much fun. And this is not really an example of it) that is off the charts, it is virtually the only thing about him worth mentioning. I can’t imagine why the Librarian (that old hen) puts up with him, when she has dropped the abuse hammer on others. Poor CC suffers it every time you turn around—not necessarily unjustly, but certainly no worse than this fellow. Even

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On 2/1/2021 at 11:16 AM, Arauna said:

Thank you sooo much - I loved it.  I wish people Like alanF would look at it to the end. 

I'm far more familiar with the religious doctrine called 'Intelligent Design' than you are.

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Alan...If you're satisfied you understand the field and that Dr. Tour has it all wrong, then you can rejoice in your superior knowledge. Perhaps you could write a book outlining his many failed arguments. Be sure to dumb it down for the rest of us, though. Include a lot of pictures and use short sentences and short monosyllabic words.

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2 minutes ago, xero said:

Alan...If you're satisfied you understand the field and that Dr. Tour has it all wrong, then you can rejoice in your superior knowledge. Perhaps you could write a book outlining his many failed arguments. Be sure to dumb it down for the rest of us, though. Include a lot of pictures and use short sentences and short monosyllabic words.

I understand that most of you Creationists are at kindergarten level, but people far more competent than I have repeatedly demolished claims like Tour's.

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5 minutes ago, AlanF said:

familiar with the religious doctrine called 'Intelligent Design' than you are.

Yes - I bet you have never tried to engineer a cell - just the membrane alone and the formation of the building blocks of the it is a marvel.  I bet you did not watch it! You dare not watch it right through!  Your "religion" will make you feel too uncomfortable.

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Just now, AlanF said:

I understand that most of you Creationists are at kindergarten level, but people far more competent than I have repeatedly demolished claims like Tour's.

I'm sure you're right, but I lack the intellectual capacity to understand these arguments. I have to content myself with eking out whatever little I understand with what Jehovah has given me. 

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5 minutes ago, xero said:

sure you're right, but I lack the intellectual capacit

That is exactly WHAT evolutionists DO IS try MAKE YOU INFERIOR AND 'PRETEND' THEY KNOW THE ANSWERS!   The video above was good because this man (who by the way is a scientist and not the label AlanF puts on everyone to dismiss them! ) shows all the errors and the false claims evolutionists make!   This man  builds cells and makes the chemicals parts for it.  He knows how incredibly hard it is and goes into details.  

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My greatest fear is that most people are too stupid to understand how brilliant I am. :)

I remember years ago I had a call w/a professor of anthropology. He of course was a proponent of evolution. I played the "I'm stupid game" with him and asked him to do me a favor and mark in the book "Life How Did It get Here - By Evolution, or Creation" where the authors got it wrong. I submitted that I was stumped, but certainly since my knowledge was a subset of his he would be in a good position to point out the errors.

So he took the book, and then oddly, stopped answering the door when I came back.

So I changed the time of day and came back at 8 pm. He made the mistake of answering, and then w/o a word, just got the book and handed it back.

I said "But what am I to do? Won't you help me? You said you would."

Then he muttered something I forget and shut the door.

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Yes for sure, there are people who are highly educated and believe in God as Creator. JW or other religious organizations have in their ranks highly educated people who believe in God. That is a fact.
If we stop after this conclusion, then we have no more problems......
.......Yet we have a problem: But in which Creator God do all these highly educated people and scientists believe? In God of Dr Tour? In God of JW's? What religion does Dr Tour belong to? To what extent will JW's accept the conclusions of Dr. Tour, a scientific believer of the Jewish direction, or of the Baptist direction, etc.? ?

DR Tour said for Adventistorg. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God.”

But WTJWorg said opposite, You have to study NWT Bible and WTJWorg publications to be closer to God.

Tour does not see a conflict between faith and science, having been quoted as saying, “I build molecules for a living. I can’t begin to tell you how difficult that job is. I stand in awe of God because of what He has done through His creation. Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith. If you really study science, it will bring you closer to God.”

    Hello guest!

He also said: Only a rookie who knows nothing about science would say science takes away from faith.

This is interesting. GB (rookie in Dr Tour mind) say opposite, stay away from higher education because you will loose your faith in JHVH. :))

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1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Yes - I bet you have never tried to engineer a cell - just the membrane alone and the formation of the building blocks of the it is a marvel. 

Yes I have. One of my final exam questions at MIT was "Create life. Explain how you did it in your one page essay."

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

I bet you did not watch it! You dare not watch it right through!  Your "religion" will make you feel too uncomfortable.

I watched it, alright. Nothing new. James Tour made the same fundamental mistake that most Creationists do -- lumping Abiogenesis with the Theory of Evolution. While most Creationists are too ignorant and stupid to understand the difference, Tour is too smart not to. Therefore his lecture is based on a deliberate lie. Just as is virtually all criticisms of Evolution by Mommy Watchtower.

 

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1 hour ago, xero said:

I'm sure you're right, but I lack the intellectual capacity to understand these arguments. I have to content myself with eking out whatever little I understand with what Jehovah has given me. 

You're in big trouble, then. But at least you appear to have some humility.

Tell me, do you believe the Bible's statement that the earth is shaped like a pizza pie?

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