WATCHTOWER, 1991 - "HOW TO CHOOSE THE RIGHT RELIGION"

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

8 hours ago, xero said:

But we have to be honest, we're not better than anyone, but to the extent that we submit to God's direction (don't equate this w/fidelity to organizations) we can find ourselves moving in the right direction. Provided our theology is providing the right (or best) roadmap.

You are good for a laugh. So is good old Tom. 

JW's serve the Watchtower / JW Org. They do not serve God through Jesus Christ. JW's stand (or did) at a cart / trolly full of GB dictated literature. Now that is serving the GB / Org. ... JWs used to go door to door with similar GB dictated literature, amd JWs do, so called, Bible studies, but again with GB dictated books.  It is all based on GB, uninspired indeas. It's what the 'world' would call propaganda.  As for the roadmap, it changes every couple of years, direction and length.

 

[xero]

2 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

No, it's Empathy 

I've answered this many times but you and others don't like my answer.  The Watchtower / JW Org is not supposed to be like any other group. It is suposed to be 'God's chosen Org'.  It would be like me, if I wanted to compare myself, to make myself feel good. I'd compare myself to a drug addict, an alcoholic or a murderer. I could then say, Well I'm better than them. You and other JWs are doing just that with the Org. You are comparing it to things that you know are worse. Of course the JW Org is better than a whorehouse. now try comparing the JW Org to God's standards. You will find it fails miserably. 

Physically in - spiritually out.   BUT that creates a problem. What will you preach or teach to others ? Will you teach GB speak, or will you teach truth ?  That was one of the problems i faced because the GB / Watchtower goes beyond the things written. 

This breaks down into a couple of things. Firstly I have NO interest in politics and NO interest in this idea of pigeonholing  / name calling. "zeitgest of marxist-post-modernism"

Secondly. Lumping all JW's together as if they had a collective responsibility over actions others have taken (etc)

All JWs do have the responsibility because they follow the insrtutions of the GB, through the Watchtower and through the Elders.  They are taught to no longer BE individuals. As an example, when I've asked an Elder about a certain point in scripture, he has said to me, I'll have to look at how the organisation sees this. He would not give me HIS individual opinion. And when there is action to be taken it is done inline with GB / Watchtower insructions.  Everything preached is by order of the GB / Watchtower.  There is not supposed to be any individuals in the JW org. There are only sheep. The problem is that their shepherds are not serving God.

You try to be clever and to mix so much up in one ortwo sentances. You fail. 

Lets start here.  quote :

" I see a Satanic hand in all this as the nullification of the individual and individual responsibility and the denial of free will and truth. "

Same answer as above.  JWs are not suppoaed to have free will. They are supposed to do exactly as they are told.  The misuse of scripture such as 'Be obedient to those taking the lead anomg you'. Hebrews 13 :17

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1989685

Quote "Paul made use of his status as a Roman citizen without being guilty of the abuses of the Roman state."

Are you suggesting that a JW could make use of their JW 'citizenship' whilst acting, teaching and preaching, something completely different ?  Instant d/fed I would think.  

Not so easy is it ?  Congregation run by Elders, Elders in subjection to Circuit Overseer, in subjection to and in subjection to, right up to their HQ Bethel, then up to GB.  The ordinary congregant has two chioce, as i found. Stay in and put up with it, or, leave. 

As for you, you are one Elder, so I wish you well in sorting out your own congregation. But you'll probs not be looking to see where the problems are, as you say you just let things go by. 

I haven't let anything go by. I don't know of anyone who has. I think I see in all this a sort of privilege which comes from being in a good place. People who live in 1st world countries complain about 1st world problems. No one has said the org is perfect, but you haven't suggested an alternate location/theology whereby Christians can come together and build up their faith on a regular basis.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

8 hours ago, xero said:

but you haven't suggested an alternate location/theology whereby Christians can come together and build up their faith on a regular basis.

This arguement has been used before. Tom has said this. 

My opinion is that no organisation is serving God properly right now. This had happened before in the times of the Nation of Israel. When Israel was in captivity, being punished for not serving God properly, there was no other nation that was serving God either.  So, there was no where for anyone to go then, just as there is no where for people to gather together right now.... But I have suggested that Almighty God, through Jesus Christ, will 'raise up' (make known) a True Anointed remnant, and they will be used by Holy Spirit, to either cleanse the JW Org, or to start a new organisation. Hence I have said that Armageddon wil not be for, maybe, ten years. Yes of course, God could do it in ten minutes if He wanted to. 

But I honestly think that God and Christ are holding back the Holy Spirit as punishment on the Watchtower / JW Org, and that there will be a process of cleansing or removal of the Org.   It  seems to me a bit like a father may give his child some money, and if the child spends that money wisely the father may give the child some more. But if that child wastes the money, then the father will hold back any more money he may have given. Now this could be to the point that if the child seriously abused the generosity of the father, then the father may take away all the good things that child has. The child of course will be worse off because of their disrespect and disobedience of thier father.  So it seems to be with the Leaders of the Watchtower and JW org. They disrespect the Father and the Son.

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

He yields on his ridiculous comparison of institutional abuse in various religions to abuse in families that happen to be religious.

Apologize, you get it wrong. @Anna used Holly Folk research, who said ARC was wrong by putting  WTJWorg in this category of "institutional abuse" instead in "family abuse" category. And as i understand Anna agree with HF. Holy Folk is, it seems, first person who made such sort of ("ridiculous") comparison and triggered discussion and agreement/disagreement on her statement. :))

[xero]

47 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

This arguement has been used before. Tom has said this. 

My opinion is that no organisation is serving God properly right now. This had happened before in the times of the Nation of Israel. When Israel was in captivity, being punished for not serving God properly, there was no other nation that was serving God either.  So, there was no where for anyone to go then, just as there is no where for people to gather together right now.... But I have suggested that Almighty God, through Jesus Christ, will 'raise up' (make known) a True Anointed remnant, and they will be used by Holy Spirit, to either cleanse the JW Org, or to start a new organisation. Hence I have said that Armageddon wil not be for, maybe, ten years. Yes of course, God could do it in ten minutes if He wanted to. 

But I honestly think that God and Christ are holding back the Holy Spirit as punishment on the Watchtower / JW Org, and that there will be a process of cleansing or removal of the Org.   It  seems to me a bit like a father may give his child some money, and if the child spends that money wisely the father may give the child some more. But if that child wastes the money, then the father will hold back any more money he may have given. Now this could be to the point that if the child seriously abused the generosity of the father, then the father may take away all the good things that child has. The child of course will be worse off because of their disrespect and disobedience of thier father.  So it seems to be with the Leaders of the Watchtower and JW org. They disrespect the Father and the Son.

So the simple answer is no. You have no alternative anywhere. So the positive statement you are making is that no one anywhere should associate with a group who claim to try to be Christians. The reason you give is that they are all imperfect.

Or did I miss anything? This doesn't seem like a good argument. It's not realistic and not scriptural.

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

All JWs do have the responsibility because they follow the insrtutions of the GB, through the Watchtower and through the Elders. 

 

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

JWs are not suppoaed to have free will. They are supposed to do exactly as they are told.  The misuse of scripture such as 'Be obedient to those taking the lead anomg you'. Hebrews 13 :17

JW members, perhaps not knowing or because they are not fully aware, generally, with whole hearth supports "collective responsibility idea" and by that shares "guilty" for their GB "sins" (false teachings, wrong instructions, disobeying secular laws in many cases).

On other hand, Bible gave examples how looks "collective responsibility" and "collective punishment" and in some cases "individual responsibility" and "collective guilt and punishment".

[TrueTomHarley]

3 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

JW members...supports "collective responsibility idea" and by that shares "guilty" for their GB "sins" (false teachings, wrong instructions, disobeying secular laws in many cases).

Yes. This is why no Israelites crossed the Jordan River. Moses got himself disqualified, so everyone else climbed atop the mountain to die with him.

[Srecko Sostar]

3 hours ago, xero said:

I understand where you're coming from, but I have to disagree as to differences in theology as being irrelevant. Take the Declaration of Independence, where it says "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." At the time this was written slavery existed in the colonies and wasn't wiped out at that time. It did, however establish a vector w/in the text as to the ideal. Theologies likewise carry within them a vector w/in, a text as to the ideal. I hold these things to not be irrelevant even if we are unable to fully realize them at present

To some extent, we have established the fact that all people are equal, and that everyone is capable of doing good and doing evil.
What is the common theology of the Catholic Church and WTJWorg? Love God and love your neighbor. In fact, it is the only important thread of Jesus' teaching. The practice of these principles in life is colorful. Catholics prove they are able to be at opposite ends, but JW members prove the same. Some commit “greater” sins and some “minor” sins. By the same Law, the Law does not recognize lesser and /or bigger sins, but only whether or not you have done something. Perhaps majority of JW members will never participate in murdering, but if they not give "glass of water" to someone, they can also be judged as "guilty for sin" and be punished with same sentences as murderer. In such scenario JW ideology/theology is very much irrelevant.

Vectors in WTJWorg theology proves nothing, but decades of failed teachings and expectations, human instructions.

It is nice to have some, few or many ideals, for sure, maybe one day we will get to that place.  

 

[Srecko Sostar]

18 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Yes. This is why no Israelites crossed the Jordan River. Moses got himself disqualified, so everyone else climbed atop the mountain to die with him.

"First sort" of Israelites who supported "collectivism" died in wilderness while walking 40 years. And completely new generation crossed Jordan River. But same/similar scenario was repeated several times after this "river crossing". Two of them was monumental ... falls of Jerusalem for example. Mix of collectivism and individualism.

[xero]

29 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

To some extent, we have established the fact that all people are equal, and that everyone is capable of doing good and doing evil.
What is the common theology of the Catholic Church and WTJWorg? Love God and love your neighbor. In fact, it is the only important thread of Jesus' teaching. The practice of these principles in life is colorful. Catholics prove they are able to be at opposite ends, but JW members prove the same. Some commit “greater” sins and some “minor” sins. By the same Law, the Law does not recognize lesser and /or bigger sins, but only whether or not you have done something. Perhaps majority of JW members will never participate in murdering, but if they not give "glass of water" to someone, they can also be judged as "guilty for sin" and be punished with same sentences as murderer. In such scenario JW ideology/theology is very much irrelevant.

Vectors in WTJWorg theology proves nothing, but decades of failed teachings and expectations, human instructions.

It is nice to have some, few or many ideals, for sure, maybe one day we will get to that place.  

 

You have to account for yourself. I have to account for myself. If you know how to do what is right and don't do it, that's a sin for you. The same for me. If you fail to listen to your conscience that's a sin for you as it is for me. People have to defend their beliefs (if these have beliefs) which are attached nominally to an organization. I have beliefs which are attached nominally to an organization, and yet those beliefs are not owned by the organization. As the old saw goes, "I make the truth my own". Those who argue for the Catholic Church and it's sliding scale of beliefs as being in perpetuity the unadulterated voice of Christ or any other organization including the WTBS have to deal with that. I don't. Yes there are company men. I am not. There are interpretations of prophesy which seem forced in my view. I see that there was diversity of opinion on the meanings of prophesy among the faithful in the 1st century and I believe there is the same latitude today among JW's. Yes, there are some for whom any wondering is considered disloyal. I don't. I'm focused on what I can know and what I do know. I do know that there is greater textual and historical testimony for the gospel accounts from a strictly historical perspective which, in combination with my understanding of the mathematical obstacles inherent in every evolutionary non-theistic scenario lead me to believe both that there is a Creator, that Jehovah is God, and that Jesus is is Son and that he both lived, died and was resurrected. I also believe that he will return and that this foretold kingdom will address all these issues. Exactly how and when I don't know. I'm not sure any do, however the more I read on this matter, the more I'm convinced that no one knows exactly how this will play out.

On the other hand I'm reminded of Jaron Lanier and his feelings about the internet. ("You Are Not A Gadget") This thing has made it so that no one can forget the past. No one does anything creative w/o first looking to see if it's been done before, or done better. He argues that this inability to forget has killed creativity in the music business. There was a time when you could identify an era by the music which was played, as each group got creative. Creativity is shot now. No truly new music. It's remixes and retro and dub-step (sounds like a fax machine getting  molested).

This thing, this recreation of the tower of babel has created a kind of totalitarian thought control, so any subtlety which might come from holy spirit isn't going to regenerate a world wide organization of Christians anywhere on this planet. Not without Jesus-like miracles, like raising people from the dead and splitting the waters of the red sea or like Moses and the plagues on Egypt.

If we see anything happening is a degradation of spirituality everywhere.

The Good News of The Kingdom has been preached. General revelation is available to all, even the illiterate Sentinelese living like proto-hominids on Sentinel Island have the general revelation.

No. The end will come when the world is just like it is right now. Or possibly worse.

I wonder that it isn't over now. So do many JW's.

[Witness]

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

 

JW members, perhaps not knowing or because they are not fully aware, generally, with whole hearth supports "collective responsibility idea" and by that shares "guilty" for their GB "sins" (false teachings, wrong instructions, disobeying secular laws in many cases).

On other hand, Bible gave examples how looks "collective responsibility" and "collective punishment" and in some cases "individual responsibility" and "collective guilt and punishment".

 

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Yes. This is why no Israelites crossed the Jordan River. Moses got himself disqualified, so everyone else climbed atop the mountain to die with him.

We can be part of collectively adhering to the truth of Christ, (which is determined by God and Jesus) or collectively adhering to the lies of men.  But, all of us stand as individuals before Christ at the end.   If accused of tolerating and favoring lies, we cannot say, “but our leaders told us to abide by their teachings!”  Matt 7:21-23

Do JWs realize that as a collective, they are not saved?  Individuals who defied God’s direction in the wilderness during the days of Moses, were not saved because they were part of Israel.

“They have contradicted the Lord
and insisted, “It won’t happen.
Harm won’t come to us;
we won’t see sword or famine.”
¹³ The prophets become only wind,
for the Lord’s word is not in them.
This will in fact happen to them.”  Jer 5:12,13

The Lord said:  “These people approach me with their speeches
to honor me with lip-service,
yet their hearts are far from me,
and human rules direct their worship of me.” Isa 29:13 

 

@Srecko Sostar, you brought out the simple scripture not long ago, that tells us to stay away from establishing “organization”; and all religious organizations have a centralized authority. We cannot claim that any religion organized by men on this earth, will lead us to eternal life. 

“A dispute also arose among them, which of them was considered to be greatest. ²⁵ He said to them, “The kings of the nations (“Gentiles”/elders)  lord it over them, and those who have authority over them (the “Gentiles”) are called ‘benefactors.’ (“friends of the people” – the GB) ²⁶ But not so with you. But one who is the greater among you, let him become as the younger, and one who is governing, as one who serves.”  Luke 22:24-26

He reiterated this plea in John 4, saying God is seeking those who only worship Him in “spirit and truth”. John 4:21-24  For 2,000 years, the only religious organizations during that time period have proven to be false.  Yet, true believers outside of these organizations, still worshiped in spirit and truth. They put their trust in God only. And who can say otherwise, the WT?

If the need for an earthly organization to worship God is found necessary, that person is unable to take confidence in God and Christ, to lead them into truth. 

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

9 hours ago, xero said:

So the simple answer is no. You have no alternative anywhere. So the positive statement you are making is that no one anywhere should associate with a group who claim to try to be Christians. The reason you give is that they are all imperfect.

Or did I miss anything? This doesn't seem like a good argument. It's not realistic and not scriptural.

Don't twist my words Elder.

There in no organisation serving God properly right now, BUT, that does not mean there are no 'people' serving God properly right now.

However YOUR GB tell the Anointed NOT TO GATHER TOGETHER.  So who is at fault there ? 

As a side note : When Russell 'ruled'  the Watchtower, he said there was no need for an organisation.  And he was the foundation of your Org.

Quote "The reason you give is that they are all imperfect." 

I never gave that reason. That is you twisting words Elder.  You see Elder, you are just a servant of the GB and the Org, and your words here prove that. 

I think it is very sad that you find it necessary to twist my words. But unfortunately the GB & Co have brainwashed you to a point where you do not recognise truth anymore it seems. Either that or you prefer to put lies in the place of truth.