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WATCHTOWER, 1991 - "HOW TO CHOOSE THE RIGHT RELIGION"


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16 hours ago, Witness said:

The anointed "Israel" resides in the WT and JWs know it.    That is the only difference about this organization than say, Mormonism.  The end prophesies concern God's holy people.

I also believe that true anointed persons make up a portion of the WTS. And I see no evidence that there would be any true anointed persons found among Mormons. I'm not trying to be a judge of who is and isn't a "true anointed" but I'm just giving an opinion based on evidence I've seen.

But this view of yours is a fairly unique view among ex-JWs (and the JW acquaintance of mine who is now an ex-elder). It's one of those things that probably made/makes no sense to "John Butler" and "4Jah2me" even though those accounts have often sided with your critiques, but have also been very vocal about not believing that "true anointed" are to be found among JWs.

When you say the anointed "Israel" resides in the WT, you also admitting that the truly anointed persons reside in the WT, but that they must also "get out of her." This means that the true anointed ("Israel") must pass through the WTS and then realize that they are in the wrong place and must get out of her. This also appears to associate the WTS directly with Babylon the Great.

But I admit that I still can't follow the logic:

How did the truly anointed "Israel" (God's people) get into the WTS in the first place? What attracted them? If they were attracted for good reasons, or necessary reasons, but must now come out, then the WTS acts as some kind of trap. There must be something special about the WTS that produces or attracts these anointed to stay in the first place. But if they continue to stay and don't come out, then whatever attracted them was a trap! If Satan is allowed to test them within the WTS then was it Satan who made this trap? Or do you think that the WTS is a good place for all anointed to pass through, assuming they also see that it is not a good place to stay, because they must get out of her? How long is the right amount of time to stay? What happens if whatever was supposed to to attract them to the WTS works, and gets them into the WTS, but they die just before realizing that they were also supposed to "get out of her."

If one looks at the Hebrew Scriptures as a pattern, then God's people (Jews/"Israel") were forced into exile in Babylon as a punishment. Many stayed in Babylon and survived as "Babylonians" for a few years. Some even thrived as Babylonian/Persian citizens for centuries, and the worldly comforts and economy of Babylon held them "captive" from restoring pure worship in Jerusalem with their fellow Jews.

This is why I don't think of Babylon the Great as a specific religion or group of false religions, but as a world of materialism and false ideologies of all kinds: the "world and its desire." This can definitely include all false religion (the general JW doctrine) but now that "location" is not the issue for pure worship, the idea of Babylon, Rome and Jerusalem must be spiritual concepts in Revelation:

(John 4:21-24) . . .Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews. 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

Spiritually speaking, then, Sodom and Egypt, and Rome and Babylon have meanings in Revelation that are associated with their earlier "OT" counterparts. True Christians, whether heaven-bound or not, anointed or not, must get out of Babylon because she represents the "center" of a world of false religious beliefs, false ideologies, political associations, the commercial centers and ideologies. Like you, I believe this is happening now, because true Christians have conquered the world spiritually. As Jesus said, "I see Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven."

(John 16:33) . . .. In the world you will have tribulation, but take courage! I have conquered the world.”

(1 John 2:14-17) . . .because you are strong and the word of God remains in you and you have conquered the wicked one. 15 Do not love either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but the one who does the will of God remains forever.

(1 John 5:4) 4 because everyone who has been born from God conquers the world. And this is the conquest that has conquered the world, our faith.

(Romans 8:37-39) 37 To the contrary, in all these things we are coming off completely victorious ["more than conquerors" KJV] through him that loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life nor angels nor governments nor things now here nor things to come nor powers 39 nor height nor depth nor any other creation will be able to separate us from God’s love that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I don't see anything in the context of Revelation's depiction of Babylon the  Great that would limit it to a specific religion. I see it as something much bigger. I see it as the way in which Christians should know that the last world empire (e.g., "Rome") has already fallen for them, spiritually.

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I don't think you're a bad example. I find your posts encouraging and I'm sure a lot of other people here do. I think some of the "complainers" may just be working out their own demons, or I hope they are. Jehovah knows we cause most of our problems just fine all by ourselves.

I have noticed that the desire to see God's promises fulfilled (nothing wrong with that of course), drives the human spirit to "predict" or "hope for" the end always in their life time. The pattern is clear: Russell hoped for the end in 1874 then 1914, Rutherford 1925, Franz 1975, the 80's GB by the end of the 20th century, today's GB between now and aprox. 2035. Each generation would say their children aren't going to make it to school....now those  children have children of their own...and g

One thing I've had hammered into me over the past decades of pioneering, studying w/mentally ill people, people who were out of jail, homeless people, professors of anthropology, teachers of farsi at the local mosque, chinese buddhists from hong kong (using me to practice english), professors of astrophysics, ranchers, ex-football champs, a hip hop artist and so-called normal people is that I'm not more worthy of survival than any of these. In fact many are arguably better people personalit

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

I studied with one family where the husband was a policeman, the wife took a year of studying and long late-night hours with me on the phone to help her overcome her smoking addiction. They were baptized together. Their two children were too young at the time, but one has been baptized since. This is a sad situation for me, because we love the family and have been close, but he is an elder now and realizes that I didn't believe in the 1914 chronology because of things he remembered in the way I studied it with him. He confirmed this by asking me directly, and has now asked that we have no more contact.

For a (former) job as a police officer, he needed a very good memory.
Today, for the (current) job of an elder, that is a good advantage.
But unfortunately, he lacks flexibility in thinking that would amortize two different views of 1914.
I wonder, how did you teach him that about 1914 that he accepted official teaching and yet could notice the difference (which has obviously worried him all this time) that made him remove you, today, from his list of friends?

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4 hours ago, xero said:

wasn't and still haven't been thoroughly convinced on some of these matters. (but is it important, when there IS a creator?)

I feel the same. I am completely convinced there is a creator and that he has revealed things he wants us to know in the Bible.  I believe that some of the things that we cannot seem to reconcile at the moment (pertaining to creation and scientific evidence, such as carbon dating, the supposed age of man and civilization, predators....etc.) will be revealed, and we will have that face palm moment as in "duh, of course"! 

4 hours ago, xero said:

but chasing this chronology is a collossal pit.

Ummm.....say no more. I have been wrapping my head around it for some time now, with the help of JWI. I still owe him a reply, actually, it will be more questions....

 

Thank you for sharing your experiences, very interesting and encouraging! 👍🤗

 

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2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

This is a sad situation for me, because we love the family and have been close, but he is an elder now and realizes that I didn't believe in the 1914 chronology because of things he remembered in the way I studied it with him. He confirmed this by asking me directly, and has now asked that we have no more contact.

Grrrrr, that is so sad, and I would say unnecessary. But of course we are not masters of an other's conscience, so no one can judge him for that (I am not saying you are ) and say it was totally unnecessary. But, the ironic thing is, how was his conscience formed? Was it through the Bible, or was it through the interpretation and understanding of some men who have erred in the past over a number of things? It's obviously the latter, and that's the sad frustrating, and unnecessary part.  I know, I know....I'm preaching to the choir...

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12 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But this view of yours is a fairly unique view among ex-JWs (and the JW acquaintance of mine who is now an ex-elder). It's one of those things that probably made/makes no sense to "John Butler" and "4Jah2me" even though those accounts have often sided with your critiques, but have also been very vocal about not believing that "true anointed" are to be found among JWs.

Um, hold on a minute JWI. You are wrong here and I've even said so on this forum. I have said that the GB, in my opinion, are not of the True Anointed. But as for others ............. 

At one time Tom was being sarcastic about my idea of a True Anointed, and he was saying where would they come from.

In reply I mentioned the large quantity of Partakers of the emblems in the Org.  I've never said they are not in there and I partly agree with @Witness  that the ones of the Anointed that are in the Org are being held back.

Add to this if you will that I've also made mention about the GB / Watchtower putting into in a magazine that the anointed should not gather together and that the GB said it would be working against the Holy Spirit... Why would i make mention of such if i didn't think that some Anointed ones were actually in the JW Org. 

What becomes more interesting is, that you and @xero believe that it is not of the utmost importance to be a JW. It will not 'get you saved'. Now building on this idea then, maybe it is not so important to be a JW in order to be of the True Anointed remnant.  What I'm suggesting is that some of the True Anointed are in the Org, and some are not.  If @Witness is a True Anointed (and it's not my place to judge) then this would comfirm what I'm saying. 

 

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12 hours ago, JW Insider said:

This is why I don't think of Babylon the Great as a specific religion or group of false religions, but as a world of materialism and false ideologies of all kinds: the "world and its desire." This can definitely include all false religion (the general JW doctrine) but now that "location" is not the issue for pure worship, the idea of Babylon, Rome and Jerusalem must be spiritual concepts in Revelation:

So then this could easily include the JW Org. materialism and false ideologies. 

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Xero: I enjoyed this. It brought back memories. Your experience is my experience, not the specifics, but the general outline.

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I loved studying ... the "Is the Bible Really the Word of God?" book with university students.

This is a specific that is the same. To this day, that book is my favorite, dated though it must be by now..

I had two college chums, and I gave the book to both of them. I thought one would love it and one would hate it. I was right!

I was also wrong. The one I thought would like it hated it. The one I thought would hate it liked it.

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50 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Um, hold on a minute JWI. You are wrong here and I've even said so on this forum. I have said that the GB, in my opinion, are not of the True Anointed. But as for others ............. 

I can explain myself, but I admit that I made a mistake here: I do accept that you have been fairly consistent for a long time in basic agreement with Witness on this point. And I admit that I exaggerated your position, and misrepresented the position you have been making very clear for well over a year, at least.

It's true that the account "4Jah2me" has been consistent about accepting the idea that the "True Anointed" are likely included among the JW Memorial partakers, but not limited to these persons. "John Butler" made some of the same points over a year ago, but did not start out that way, from what I remembered. Even "4Jah2me" would say things like what you said to Arauna recently under another topic: 

When you become wise enough to know that God & Christ are not part of the Watchtower / CCJW, then you will have spiritual wisdom. There are many JWs that agree that when judgement arrives, people will be judged as individuals, judged on their spiritual heart condition, NOT judged on whether they are a baptised JW or not. . . . Soon God through Christ, will show who the True Anointed are. Then we will get true interpretation of God's word.  The deeper things of the scriptures are for the True Anointed to understand because they have been anointed of God's Holy Spirit and because Christ died for them. Rev 5 v 9 & 10

I know that this on its own does not contradict what you are saying, but when I put it all together, you appear to expect a separate "perfect" organization run by True Anointed, which is not related to the CCJW, which you say God and Christ have nothing to do with.

About a year and a half ago, to Tom, you ("4J")said:

But there will be an Organisation that stands tall above all others. A pure and truthful organisation run by true Anointed. It will suffer persecution because it will be so pure and good and because it will serve God through Jesus Christ properly. It will give true direction and not have to keep changing its mind. 

Unlike the JW Org that is as deep in the sh-t as all other religions are right now. The JW Org is not recognisable as being high  above the others, it is not recognised for pure worship, it is seen as being just as filthy as all the others and seen as telling just as many lies too. Different lies of course but still lies.  . . .

So right now God does not have a reliable organisation, hence Judgement time must be a way off yet. 

Now, I know it's not really fair to pull up things you have said in the past, as if people can't expand and change their views. Also, I know that these statements can be reconciled with the idea that True Anointed exist within this organization. But I can show even more distancing from the CCJW by "John Butler."

At any rate, I'll repeat that I made a mistake here: I do accept that you have been fairly consistent for a long time in basic agreement with "Witness" on this point. And I see that I misrepresented your current position on this topic. Sorry.

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On 2/23/2021 at 2:13 PM, JW Insider said:

In any case, they all must think there is something very special about the WTS so that their energy goes against it instead of being equally shared among the problems of Mormons, Catholics, Scientologists, etc. 

Yes. This is another “booby prize” at first glance that turns out to be top prize at second..It is an indication that JWs have the truth: We have by far the best apostates.

No NT writer does not deal with the subject of apostasy. Two chapters of the Bible are devoted to it entirely. Unless the world has been won over by Christ (we all know the answer to that one) then the reality then should be the reality today. And nobody has more vociferous “apostates” than ours. We should be proud of them, for through them is our validation.

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12 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Yes. This is another “booby prize” at first glance that turns out to be top prize at second..It is an indication that JWs have the truth: We have by far the best apostates.

No NT writer does not deal with the subject of apostasy. Two chapters of the Bible are devoted to it entirely. Unless the world has been won over by Christ (we all know the answer to that one) then the reality then should be the reality today. And nobody has more vociferous “apostates” than ours. We should be proud of them, for through them is our validation.

Interesting observations. On the other hand it makes sense that there would be a greater enthusiasm for criticism among any group which claimed to have the truth. In fact I thought it quite idiotic as an atheist that anyone promoting their particular brand of faith didn't consider their brand of faith to be "the truth".

Now you'd be hard pressed to find a Catholic apostate, or a Lutheran apostate....

I remember on the matter of exploring religions a statement by the unitarians in leo rosten's "religions of america" - "You might be a Unitarian and not even know it!"

My thoughts are, then apparently being Unitarian is meaningless.

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