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IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion


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@TrueTomHarley Wow, I'm shocked at getting a polite reply as you seem to think i can't 'think my wayf out of a paper bag'.

But the exact point of conflict comes when a person / victim / victim's parent, reports CSA or any other problem to an Elder of a congregation. If the Elder chooses not to act on the report, for any reason, then the report is 'dead in the water',  gone, forgotton.  No matter what laws are in place, the Elders of congregations are the ones, at the moment, to have to make decisions.  So, should it be the victim / victim's parents, that go straight to the Police, without going to the Elders ? 

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... apparently not, as it IS up to God ...

Parents are the ones who give consent to anyone, whether it be an Elder, a ministerial servant or a publisher to study the Bible with their child and/or go in service.  It is a private arrangement and agreement between the parent and the relevant person. Everyone is educated at the meetings, including the children who should sit with their parents. If someone else is "teaching their children" or if children are sitting with someone else besides their parents, then that is by the parents own arra

Noted, and probably deserved. It is good for me to be rebuked on this from time to time, for I might be far worse without it. On the other hand: Actually, arguing doesn’t play a role in “scriptural arguments.” You know the verses as well as I: debates about words, leave blind guides be, answering a fool, even spreading pearls before swine. At least if I spread stuff before “swine,” it is not pearls. I can think of a way of solving that problem. In addition to blasting away at

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14 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

So, should it be the victim / victim's parents, that go straight to the Police, without going to the Elders ? 

You either don’t keep up or you deliberately misrepresent. The May 2019 made exactly that point. 

It doesn’t matter what the elders do or do not do. It doesn’t matter what they do or do not believe. A member has every right to go to the police and by doing so, they bring no reproach at all on the congregation. The abuser has already done that. 

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7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

A member has every right to go to the police and by doing so, they bring no reproach at all on the congregation.

My point was, should the victim / victims parents NOT discuss it with the Elders first ?  I know that victims were 'given permission' to go to the police / authorities, but my point here is, whether the Elders should be informed before or after going for outside help, or should the Elders not be involved at all ? 

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14 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

but my point here is, whether the Elders should be informed before or after going for outside help, or should the Elders not be involved at all ? 

Doesn’t matter. If ones go straight to police with an allegation and police decide there is nothing to it, then no harm is done to anyone beyond some inconvenience & maybe false suspicion. 

If ones go straight to the police and an abuser is thrown into the hoosegow, no doubt elders will find out about it then. At that time, they can begin whatever spiritual role they will play. They’d have no reason to feel “left out of the loop,” and I don’t think they would.

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46 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

@TrueTomHarley Wow, I'm shocked at getting a polite reply as you seem to think i can't 'think my wayf out of a paper bag'.

Wow! So am I, when his hypocrisy rebukes me and treats you nicely. But, I have to expect that from an unhinged ex-elder.

While you're on the subject of "consent" to authorize. Do you believe secular authority will charge a person without proof? If so, can you prove your claim on why, Elders without the authorization or consent of parties just like secular law requires with a certain degree of an allegation, you want the Watchtower to reject secular authority and go contrary to policies?

Another point if I may. You brought out the ARC and the 1000 in 50 years narrative. Even though, I think the time frame was 65. Let's take a closer look at that by giving you a simple, example. 

Under that DATA PRIVACY laws of Australia, congregations can only include certain information that is relevant to the organization. Now, here's the example: JTR was charged with peddling child pornography. Under the EU guidelines on GDPR, the congregation could only include the word child abuse, if the authorities were notified, and the response from the Elders.

What category to you think JTR would fall under?

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22 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

That's the problem with witnesses trying to chime in on a subject, they fully don't understand

This is probably true. But it is in the nature of social media. Nobody “fully understands” anything of which they speak. Maybe they should, but they rarely do. All communication is a give-and-take of trying to get a better grasp of things, searching out accuracy and evading the rocks that would rip open the boat’s bottom.

For the most part, this is understood going in. It is buyer beware. A fool believes every word. The shrewd ones weighs matters carefully.

Granted, few people do this. But the only solution is to become more shrewd oneself or pull the plug on social media Since the latter isn’t likely to happen, one can only aim for the former.

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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

If only CC could refrain from spewing battery acid on everyone--he really does have some valuable insights here.

 

11 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

Wow! So am I, when his hypocrisy rebukes me and treats you nicely. But, I have to expect that from an unhinged ex-elder.

Sigh....

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4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It depends upon what you define as “doing the right thing.” In the eyes of are determined critics, we still are not “doing the right thing” and will not until any so much as a hint of CSA allegation is immediately forwarded by elders to the police—effectively making them an arm of the state. It is not for elders to make any judgment as to credibility or severity. Send any allegation to police. 

We may think we have settled matters by making clear there is no stigma in affected or knowledgeable parties going to police with CSA allegations “unproven” or not.  But they will not think so.

Sometimes I think these matters of who is mandated to report and who is not would be best settled by extending it across the board. At present, clergy, or in our case those who parallel them in some respects, are called upon to “do the right thing.” Doctors also are called upon to “do the right thing.” Extend it to lawyers that they also must “do the right thing”—send any admission or suspicion of CSA straight to police—and the entire mandated structure of other parties might reverse.

So desperate is the world to stop CSA, so ineffectual are they at doing it, that the idea has been floated of make any person a mandated reporter.

Of course, in the eyes of our really determined critics, we will not be “doing the right thing” until we cease to exist. It is why I was so taken with Holly Folk’s frank caution: “If you are a past or present JW victim of CSA, be careful that you are not victimized anew by those who feign interest in your trauma so as to use you in their quest to take down a religion they dislike.

 

Making anyone a mandated reporter...just what we need, more Karen's bothering people because they are not happy if someone isn't as miserable as they are

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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It doesn’t matter what the elders do or do not do. It doesn’t matter what they do or do not believe. A member has every right to go to the police and by doing so, they bring no reproach at all on the congregation.

Let be reminded on "Shepherd book" 2010.

19. Child abuse is a crime. Never suggest to anyone that they should not report an allegation of child abuse to the police or other authorities. If you are asked, make it clear that whether to report the matter to the authorities or not is a personal

Chapter 12 131 WAT.0003.001.0132

decision for each individual to make and that there are no congregation sanctions for either decision. Elders will not criticize anyone who reports such an allegation to the authorities. If the victim wishes to make a report, it is his or her absolute right to do so. —Gal. 6:5.

According to what all of us know very well, facts are:

A) elders doing and not doing what GB say them

B) elders believe and not believe what GB say them 

BOE letters and changed editions of "Shepherd books" proves this!

The "theocratic culture" nurtured in the assemblies by the Corporation regarding “secular courts” did not allow what it allows today. 

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18 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Let be reminded on "Shepherd book" 2010.

19. Child abuse is a crime. Never suggest to anyone that they should not report an allegation of child abuse to the police or other authorities. If you are asked, make it clear that whether to report the matter to the authorities or not is a personal

Chapter 12 131 WAT.0003.001.0132

decision for each individual to make and that there are no congregation sanctions for either decision. Elders will not criticize anyone who reports such an allegation to the authorities. If the victim wishes to make a report, it is his or her absolute right to do so. —Gal. 6:5.

I don’t know what you are smoking, but what you have underscored in no way contradicts my point and in no way validates yours. On the second portion I speak a bit less confidently, for I have no idea what point you are trying to make, nor even if you are making one beyond merely laying down words.

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