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IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion


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6 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I don’t know what you are smoking, but what you have underscored in no way contradicts my point and in no way validates yours. On the second portion I speak a bit less confidently, for I have no idea what point you are trying to make, nor even if you are making one beyond merely laying down words.

GB determines in what matters a "brother" may be sued. Does that mean you can sue him in things that GB didn't approve of, yet? Why does GB consider that it has the right to determine when it is allowed to go to secular court and when it is not allowed? What “biblical passages” support these human rules?

:)) smoking and inhaling, what is difference

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... apparently not, as it IS up to God ...

Parents are the ones who give consent to anyone, whether it be an Elder, a ministerial servant or a publisher to study the Bible with their child and/or go in service.  It is a private arrangement and agreement between the parent and the relevant person. Everyone is educated at the meetings, including the children who should sit with their parents. If someone else is "teaching their children" or if children are sitting with someone else besides their parents, then that is by the parents own arra

Noted, and probably deserved. It is good for me to be rebuked on this from time to time, for I might be far worse without it. On the other hand: Actually, arguing doesn’t play a role in “scriptural arguments.” You know the verses as well as I: debates about words, leave blind guides be, answering a fool, even spreading pearls before swine. At least if I spread stuff before “swine,” it is not pearls. I can think of a way of solving that problem. In addition to blasting away at

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7 hours ago, Thinking said:

Arauna I agree with so much of what you say...but as a people we shouldn’t have needed the ARC..to do the right thing....that’s what some are arguing here.

If you do not have the right secular laws in place to get a conviction then the secular system and reporting a crime  is useless. For example - police need psychologists to work with the under aged victims to take testimony .... so they are not traumatized by being cross-examined in court (second trauma).  If there is not a law for mandatory reporting then there is usually also no infrastructure / support system to determine guilt.  Psychologists can help determine this in very difficult cases. Even where these laws are in place it has transpired that the secular system does not follow through because of lack of infrastructure (qualified people). But now that these laws are in place they still blame those who worked with children for their lack of extra procedures - when they themselves lacked procedures... and still are retroactively shifting the blame.

The problem has always been the cases wherein it is difficult to prove guilt - one needs additional government support - and this was NOT available.

JWs were doing what they possibly could under the secular system that was in place. They put procedures in place and were ridiculed for it.  The government was shifting its responsibility to bring in good functional laws to handle these cases.  Instead it was left to organizations who worked with children to sort out.  Where there are children one will always find renegade people who will step out of line. Satan can get to anyone and any person who denies this is denying the scriptures in the bible which prove that Satan can get to any person - Judas walked with Christ and was a traitor to the trust put in him.

I feel the law is acting unjustly by retroactively blaming organizations when they themselves were to blame for the confusion in the first place. 

 

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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

A) elders doing and not doing what GB say them

B) elders believe and not believe what GB say them 

BOE letters and changed editions of "Shepherd books" proves this!

The "theocratic culture" nurtured in the assemblies by the Corporation regarding “secular courts” did not allow what it allows today. 

Srecko, do you understand the word guideline? In essence, that's what the Shepherd book is. Elders are supposed to conform to scripture just like the rest of the brotherhood. That included the WT, GB. 

Now, with this theocratic culture you speak of, that started with Christ, are you suggesting the Watchtower NOT change policies to adapt to current secular laws? 

Do, you believe, it's everyone's business, when secular authority doesn't even consider that? Do you, personally know what your local officials do every day, every hour of the day, every minute, every second? Now don't lie!

Now does your police department or your Judaical branch of government, tell you, everything as a concerned citizen? Or is that something that gets picked up, as local news? Does a prosecuting attorney call you every day and say, Srecko this is the evidence, and this is how I'm going to proceed with that evidence. This is the defendants personally history, what do you think. By the way, give me your input so that I can make, changes.

Would this be normal in your mind?

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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

GB determines in what matters a "brother" may be sued. Does that mean you can sue him in things that GB didn't approve of, yet? Why does GB consider that it has the right to determine when it is allowed to go to secular court and when it is not allowed? What “biblical passages” support these human rules?

:)) smoking and inhaling, what is difference

I think your beef goes well beyond this or any other discussion and it is simply that there is a shepherding mechanism among JWs. Next it will be at shepherds themselves, next congregations themselves. Will it go all the way to a beef that there is a God himself?

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6 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Well, your correct in one aspect while wrong in another. That's the problem with witnesses trying to chime in on a subject, they fully don't understand. This can also be a cultural thing. Then, those kinds of witnesses distort the narrative even more when they agree with an ex-wetness erred perceptions.

Well I was loath to chime in on this subject I admit ...and it probably would have been wiser to not say a thing..and yes I broke  my own rule over this.

Because it declines into a emotional school yard cat fight... but you also do not fully understand either Billy....NONE..of us here do...not really.

But I know first hand of certain issues here in Australia..I watched all of the ARC..talked with victims and elders...know  of certain    cases...intimately ..so can speak from experience...

The way they were handled by elders and the Branch directions of the time..and how victims were handled...and the frustrations of elders and the victims.

I listen to witnesses who have got things a bit wrong...sometimes a lot wrong...and a lot right .

I listen to Ex JWs who have got some things right and some things wrong...

It is not as simple or straightforward forward as so many believe....it is not black and white

I have distorted nothing...I am just more balanced over this subject .than you

Agreeing with anEx Jw on certain matters  does not make one their Alia..it’s just acknowledging a fact that may be correct in a certain issue at a certain time.

as far as chiming in..we have discussed this before me with you actually...and that didn’t end very well either....you told me you were not my brother...so as I said...I am loath to enter such a discussion..it goes round and round in circles with insults thrown at each other....and everyone becomes like rabid dogs biting at each other and thinking it is okay because it is a forum...and thinking Jehovah is going to accept such behaviour and excuse us of it.....and I include myself in this as well.

I wish you well CC..I’m not to sure who you are...as I’m not to sure who anyone is here ...

As far as a culture thing...Jehovah’s laws are laws...I once had a elder say to me over a very serious matter.....” well it’s not how Australians are”....

no I thought...but it is how Jehovah is......

I won’t reply on this matter again....but I stand by my words and will not back off from them even tho I will remain silent...

 

Witnesses are allowed to disagree with each other..we are not robots....it does not make us apostates...or idiots...just people with differing views ...which may change at any given time..and also may not change.

I don’t always agree with Toms view..nor he with mine...but what a great conversation we would have in a car group..

You yourself have distorted facts..as have certain ex JWs....it’s a mess all around and it’s so hard to find ANY one Who can have a balanced view over it.

I do not speak out ignorance ..but deal with facts..everything else is a waste of time and effort..

 

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8 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Srecko, do you understand the word guideline?

Guidelines. Is this something that GB publishes (books, letters) and tells elders through seminars on how to proceed?

8 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Now, with this theocratic culture you speak of, that started with Christ

As far as I remember Christ did not participate in the "Judicial commissions/committees" of his time... 

8 hours ago, César Chávez said:

are you suggesting the Watchtower NOT change policies to adapt to current secular laws? 

... and he told, give Caesar what belong to Caesar.

8 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Do, you believe, it's everyone's business, when secular authority doesn't even consider that? Do you, personally know what your local officials do every day, every hour of the day, every minute, every second? Now don't lie!

.........Would this be normal in your mind?

Why you ask me "silly" questions, on which you already know the answers? :) 

 

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7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I think your beef goes well beyond this or any other discussion and it is simply that there is a shepherding mechanism among JWs. Next it will be at shepherds themselves, next congregations themselves. Will it go all the way to a beef that there is a God himself?

Atheists "eat beef" without God. Believers "eat beef" with God.

Well, what then?

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9 hours ago, Arauna said:

I feel the law is acting unjustly by retroactively blaming organizations when they themselves were to blame for the confusion in the first place. 

I can agree with your comment about issue.  

This sentence I singled out is very reminiscent of how WTJWorg blaming its members because they, reportedly/allegedly, didn’t understand what was written in the publications, so they began to believe in something they themselves thought was written in magazines (1975 is a great example from history that even today is part of JW talks in congregations and on JWTV).

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11 hours ago, César Chávez said:

that person needs to get educated in order to have the proper knowledge before embarrassing themselves as a supposed witness.

Yes, we all have experience of judicial committees.... lol.

Your other words also indicate that we must shut up if we have not been on a committee.   So where will I learn about this as a silly woman hmmm....? Will you teach me? .. when you distainfully shut me up or  expect me to say nothing or get off the forum?   

OR will you patiently explain things here on the forum and NOT  expect  people to dutifully shut up?  I learn a lot from you but what you have  shamelessly said over the last few days, does not indicate wisdom by NOT looking at things also from another persons perspective.  You remind me of the pharisees - all law, and no love. You have to learn to tone down the harshness and one-sidedness. I look past that because I like to learn things - no matter from which mouth it comes , ........ I am not just speaking for myself here.

On this forum is not just about having experts on a matter talking.  If the forum was merely for experts arguing "cases" then where would us ordinary folk go?  

I do not want to share photographs of myself on other media or talk about car racing, clothes, or some other silly subject. I come here to get my mind stimulated to get something new to think about ...... not to be an expert..... or to be perfect..... If I wanted oversight I would go to the "closed" part of the forum. 

Yes - there are those who are  silly sometimes... even sloppy.....(I feel entitled to be, having worked hard my whole life)...... but this is made up for by others with extreme puffiness, commedians, bad tempered and deviant  experts and others with extreme hate-OCD.  

There are people on here that would not believe even if christ himself spoke to them from heaven by e-mail.... they would think it is a despicable  JW prodding  them..... their prejudice is immutable. They think the JW organization should be run the way THEY think it should be run and will always find some handy element to critisize as long as they live ....... no matter how reasonable the arguments....... because they themselves cannot put themselves in any other persons shoes. They are highly flawed but do not know it.  Put those very same people in a position of leadership and all justice will disappear because they have no clue about righteousness or justice. 

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5 hours ago, Thinking said:

Agreeing with anEx Jw on certain matters  does not make one their Alia..it’s just acknowledging a fact that may be correct in a certain issue at a certain time.

When one works with people one should validate their feelings..... and afterward correct.them..... that is the loving way to do it. 

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23 hours ago, xero said:

Making anyone a mandated reporter...just what we need, more Karen's bothering people because they are not happy if someone isn't as miserable as they are

NOW THIS IS WHAT A CURRENT ELDER THINK OF CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE IN JW ORG CONGREGATIONS.  AS I'VE SAID BEFORE THE ORG JUST LOOK AT VICTIMS OF CSA AS BEING COLLATERAL DAMAGE. 

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