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IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion


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22 hours ago, César Chávez said:

When did Jesus make it known, every sit down with the apostles were supposed to be a public forum or disclosure.

Mathew 18 : 16 & 17

But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that 'every word may be strengthened upon the testimony of two or three witnesses.'And if he fails to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he fails to listen to even to the church, let him be to you as the pagan and the tax collector.

Or NWT

“Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go and reveal his fault

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 between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16  But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter
    Hello guest!
 may be established.
    Hello guest!
 17  If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations
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 and as a tax collector.

We are not talking about everyday conversation, we are talking about SIN in the congregation. 

Also i think the apostle Paul made it known  

1 Corrinthians 5 v 1

Actually sexual immorality

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 is reported among you, and such immorality as is not even found among the nations—of a man living with his father’s wife.

So, once again it seems your GB / Org do not obey scripture 'as they see it', because they do it all in secret. 

We are not talking Data protection here, we are talking obeying God. 

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... apparently not, as it IS up to God ...

Parents are the ones who give consent to anyone, whether it be an Elder, a ministerial servant or a publisher to study the Bible with their child and/or go in service.  It is a private arrangement and agreement between the parent and the relevant person. Everyone is educated at the meetings, including the children who should sit with their parents. If someone else is "teaching their children" or if children are sitting with someone else besides their parents, then that is by the parents own arra

Noted, and probably deserved. It is good for me to be rebuked on this from time to time, for I might be far worse without it. On the other hand: Actually, arguing doesn’t play a role in “scriptural arguments.” You know the verses as well as I: debates about words, leave blind guides be, answering a fool, even spreading pearls before swine. At least if I spread stuff before “swine,” it is not pearls. I can think of a way of solving that problem. In addition to blasting away at

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22 hours ago, Arauna said:

I feel the law is acting unjustly by retroactively blaming organizations when they themselves were to blame for the confusion in the first place.

But how do you feel about the GB / Lawyers not handing over the 25 year Pedophile database in USA ?

How do you feel that here in UK the UK Bethel didn't want to hand over their Pedophile information, to the point that the info' was only handed over (o rmaybe only a small amount of the info') after the court told them to ?

How do you feel the GB Layews that have deliberately lied in courtrooms ? 

How do you feel about Elders using clergy penitent privilege in court ? 

how do you feel about compensation being paid to victims of CSA in the JW Org / Watchtower ? 

Those are important points, because those points will show how much of a 'Christian' you are. 

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34 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Mathew 18 : 16 & 17

But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that 'every word may be strengthened upon the testimony of two or three witnesses.'And if he fails to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he fails to listen to even to the church, let him be to you as the pagan and the tax collector.

Or NWT

“Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go and reveal his fault

    Hello guest!
 between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16  But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter
    Hello guest!
 may be established.
    Hello guest!
 17  If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations
    Hello guest!
 and as a tax collector.

We are not talking about everyday conversation, we are talking about SIN in the congregation. 

Also i think the apostle Paul made it known  

1 Corrinthians 5 v 1

Actually sexual immorality

    Hello guest!
 is reported among you, and such immorality as is not even found among the nations—of a man living with his father’s wife.

So, once again it seems your GB / Org do not obey scripture 'as they see it', because they do it all in secret. 

We are not talking Data protection here, we are talking obeying God. 

Many of us here know how GB and elders in JW congregations interpreting, how these verses in Mat 18 is about "minor sins". All "gross sins" must be reported to elders (not to police or other secular authorities).  

In such way of interpretation JW people can't apply verses 15 and 16 for "serious sin". 

But they are in obligation to apply verse 17 for "serious sin". Is CSA "serious sin" (or crime)? In WTJWorg interpretations that is matter for elders first/primarily. Only recently Organization gave permission to members to report that same thing (CSA) to secular governments. 

Now, is lying or stealing "serious sin"? What items from Chapter 18 do JW members apply in such a case? Do they report that to police, or only to elders? Or they are free to handle that individually?

By now i see how Shepherd book (2019) speaking about things as fraud, slander, manslaughter, to some level connected with some sort of notification to/from secular authorities, and specifically/only about CSA in connection with secular governments and reporting.

All in all question you made is proper: What do they (GB) obey? And what they teaching members to obey?

 

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2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

WHAT A CURRENT ELDER THINK OF CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE I

This is why I think it is a waste of time talking to people like you . You accuse before you think.   You never think of implications - only what you see in front of you. 

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1 minute ago, Arauna said:

This is why I think it is a waste of time talking to people like you . You accuse before you think.   You never think of implications - only what you see in front of you. 

When time travel is invented, historical revisionists will give a friendly wave to American forefather slaveholders as they race past them to bring the real arch-fiends, the Ancient Greek pedophiles, on whom Western society is based, back in leg-irons.

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1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

nce again it seems your GB / Org do not obey scripture 'as they see it', because they do it all in secret.

This was talking about a mother and son sleeping together which was shocking. It came to Paul's ears.  This scripture does not mean that we must go around reporting on people whom we suspect of having done something wrong.... which you seem to imply.  

It is common knowledge that child sex abuse ALWAYS happens in secret....... because it is predatory behavior and a CRIME!   Similar to a planned murder, these  people's consciences know it is wrong and therefore cover their tracks.  If you did not know this then please go read up about this.

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6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

ar as I remember Christ did not participate in the "Judicial commissions/committees" of his time... 

As far as I remember the congregations were not yet completely established. There were only disciples who followed him.  He was not part of the Jewish Sanhedrin and went into the synagogue to read the Hebrew scriptures.  

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7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Guidelines. Is this something that GB publishes (books, letters) and tells elders through seminars on how to proceed?

Then you don't understand the word guideline, since CHRIST is the one that introduced them to the Christian congregation and God inspired them to be published. Learn then.

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

As far as I remember Christ did not participate in the "Judicial commissions/committees" of his time... 

So, Jesus didn't go before the judgment of the Pharisees and before the Roman court. Good to know how much knowledge you bring to the table.

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

... and he told, give Caesar what belong to Caesar.

At what point do you personally believe, by the Watchtower having to change polices because secular law demands it, is NOT giving to Caesar?

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Why you ask me "silly" questions, on which you already know the answers?

Since I'm not your keeper and your state of mind is in question, I have to ask silly questions because of silly thoughts you have. 😏

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14 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

begged the Elders NOT to contact the police?

This is a common problem - family members beg elders to not tell the police.  This is why I say that many here do not think of how the families feel or think. They do not think of the family dynamics, except about the reporting. 

I have mentioned on this forum before how a young boy who touched his cousin out of curiosity was sent to a reformatory and branded a sex offender for the rest of his life......  BUT the people here do not really want to look at the nuances and the pain this brings a family or the victim....... the smell a pound of flesh and use this subject to keep on beating and beating JWs. they are not reasonable.

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25 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

do you blame me for not calling anyone here of Christian fellowship a brother,

Then why do you come here?  You yourself say - have discipline..... discipline the mind!  Walk the talk buddy!  I know I am a Witness - but if I am not good enough to your standards,  go read the watchtower we studied today!

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