IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion

[xero]

1 minute ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The reason there is an expression “skeletons in the closet” is that throughout history, people have succeeded in keeping them there. It is only in modern times that any sin of any degree is expected to be reported to others. 

Some ought be, no doubt. Others not so much. But the idea that the involved parties, even the victim him/herself, has NO SAY in the matter is uniquely of our time.

I had to handle a case where we were getting ready to recommend a brother as an MS and some trouble popped up from some other congregation who got wind of what we were going to do. Apparently 15 years previously when he was 15 he was at some poorly supervised pool party and something may or may not have happened w/another couple of JW's 15 yr old daughter. But guess what? The police were called, and investigation was made, the society was notified and turns out neither the police, not anyone else thought there was anything going on which warranted further concern - save for these poor examples of JW's. In any case this bro wasn't in their cong and hadn't been for over a decade, yet somehow he was responsible for how their daughter turned out. (WTF?).

BUT, you actually have galactically stupid elders who don't know the difference between what the KNOW to be true and don't KNOW to be true. So I'm sitting in this meeting and this pin-head elder blusters "These are serious charges!" (against the bro being recommended)...And I counter "You know Jose...You are absolutely right. But not for the reasons you imagine. This is serious because if this family doesn't put a sock in it, they could be guilty of slander! This has already been looked at. It's a more than decade old event, he was a minor at the time, the police investigated, the society investigated....this is case closed. But the family spreading slander against this brother IS serious."

He looked at me with his barnyard animal expression one of surprise mixed with stubbornness until several other elders jumped in and agreed.

This is the thing people don't get about elders and humans. People can mean well and get it all wrong. But I couldn't let this brother get hammered and slandered because of this other weirdo JW family whose family were almost all out of control. (All that was on them. Not the congregation)

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

So, John 8:7

You chose a good verse. He dissolved the Judicial Committee and the executioners (stoning) with a few calm words. Under Jewish law and this law in the JW Congregation, adultery is a “gross sin” and cannot pass without the intervention of elders. Jesus showed that the elders and members of the Jew Congregation in this case have nothing to do and/or deal with her affairs.

[TrueTomHarley]

30 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

This worldly acronym has a particular understanding. Care to explain what you mean by this?

Yes. It’s a valid question. Though, of course, I have done the same (or parallel)

Speaking of “anti-cultism,” I quoted someone saying, “Oh, sorry for not having a PhD in whatever b******t you have your PhD in.” Everyone knows what the word is. 

Language changes. I have always avoided that acronym but, as above, have said things just as bad. 

I even had some fun with it in Tom Irregardless and Me. Some heavy-metal group, I forget which, had just released a critically acclaimed song, with lyrics raging at the current state of the world:

”We are so f**ked, s**t out of luck!” (asterisks the writer’s)

I recapped it as: Yes! Exactly! Now you’ve got it!

You are so f**ked! You are shit out of l**k!

But it doesn’t have to be that way! Clean up your act! Pick up those Bibles! “Shave off those beards! Apply yourselves and maybe a year or so you can do one of our original songs! Why—with your background, maybe you can do two!”

I’m still waiting. 

[Thinking]

5 hours ago, xero said:

I had to handle a case where we were getting ready to recommend a brother as an MS and some trouble popped up from some other congregation who got wind of what we were going to do. Apparently 15 years previously when he was 15 he was at some poorly supervised pool party and something may or may not have happened w/another couple of JW's 15 yr old daughter. But guess what? The police were called, and investigation was made, the society was notified and turns out neither the police, not anyone else thought there was anything going on which warranted further concern - save for these poor examples of JW's. In any case this bro wasn't in their cong and hadn't been for over a decade, yet somehow he was responsible for how their daughter turned out. (WTF?).

BUT, you actually have galactically stupid elders who don't know the difference between what the KNOW to be true and don't KNOW to be true. So I'm sitting in this meeting and this pin-head elder blusters "These are serious charges!" (against the bro being recommended)...And I counter "You know Jose...You are absolutely right. But not for the reasons you imagine. This is serious because if this family doesn't put a sock in it, they could be guilty of slander! This has already been looked at. It's a more than decade old event, he was a minor at the time, the police investigated, the society investigated....this is case closed. But the family spreading slander against this brother IS serious."

He looked at me with his barnyard animal expression one of surprise mixed with stubbornness until several other elders jumped in and agreed.

This is the thing people don't get about elders and humans. People can mean well and get it all wrong. But I couldn't let this brother get hammered and slandered because of this other weirdo JW family whose family were almost all out of control. (All that was on them. Not the congregation)

I’ve heard this story before....I’m trying to figure out on which forum and from whom?????

[Thinking]

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

Then why do you come here?  You yourself say - have discipline..... discipline the mind!  Walk the talk buddy!  I know I am a Witness - but if I am not good enough to your standards,  go read the watchtower we studied today!

Arauna ..I think Sis we need to let this person have the last say...or we become like him....don’t waste your precious spiritual energy...I’m not sure what is going on here but it’s not healthy...it’s time to back away for the sake..not of those participating...but for sake of those who may be reading this and dismayed at how low we all have become...me included ...

none of this thread is dignified...or mature...

Jesus didn’t even look at Herod as he was so disgusted with him...

you know the old saying...If there is no wood,...there is no fire...I admire your tenacity...

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

44 minutes ago, Thinking said:

Sis we need to let this person have the last say...or we become like him.

This is the case with many unsavory personalities. They have to be given the last word, because they WILL NOT yield. If you insist upon it yourself you will write until well past Armageddon (and possibly be distracted from it on that account)

The trick is, not to insist upon the last word, for you will not get it, but to make your own words cogent, reasonable, and persuasive. Write a little and rest from your labors while they flail away at points already addressed.

On the other hand, to the extent this really is an “apostate” site, as he contends—certainly there are some of those ne’er-do-wells here, who cares? Strictly speaking, no one ought to be hobnobbing with these characters anyhow. The fact that some are, self included (and among the ‘worst offenders’), indicates that they all have unique reasons, purposes, intentions, circumstances, etc. The more long-winded threads are, the more likely that anyone with any value on their time will stay away from it.

A great way to deal with “apostasy” is to encase it in so much nonsense, like T-cells encasing a virus, that it all but sinks from sight.

[Pudgy]

...... sounds like a bunch of Barbara Streisand to me .......

[TrueTomHarley]

8 hours ago, César Chávez said:

This REBUKE is for you!!

Noted, and probably deserved. It is good for me to be rebuked on this from time to time, for I might be far worse without it. On the other hand:

8 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Either way, foul language doesn't play a role in, scriptural arguments, 

Actually, arguing doesn’t play a role in “scriptural arguments.” You know the verses as well as I: debates about words, leave blind guides be, answering a fool, even spreading pearls before swine. At least if I spread stuff before “swine,” it is not pearls.

8 hours ago, César Chávez said:

I don't want you to ever challenge my Christianity with this kind of stupidity you're offering.

I can think of a way of solving that problem.

In addition to blasting away at everyone as “apostate,” your weird mistake is in thinking you can convert this forum into a Kingdom Hall. You can’t. The internet is inherently a lawless place, where nobody’s identity is known for sure, where it is so easy to hide who and what you are, where rocks lurk to rip the bottom from your love feast boat, where there is no spiritual food, where there is no stabilizing presence of elders, and where any claim of anyone who says he is an elder is unverifiable. Do you think that which is crooked can be made straight?

Or perhaps you somehow think you have a “sacred calling” to argue, but in that case you are in direct contradiction with the Bible and the earthly organization.

8 hours ago, César Chávez said:

or stop telling people you are a witness.

On my blog profile, I do nor say that I am. Nor do I have what many seem to feel is the obligatory link to jw.org. That’s deliberate. Everyone has some idiosyncrasies (Lord knows you have some! to the point where your identity itself is questionable) and if you link to the Witness website you convey the impression that you got it from them. I’d rather not tarnish them that way. 

Of course, one can read my posts and readily conclude I am a Witness, which I am, but I don’t outright say so on the front page. I admit I veer into the crass at times. There is one stereotype I like to counter, and that is that JWs eat Bible sandwiches—that is, apart from the Bible, they have no interests at all, from which some interpret that they are nothing but self-righteousness on steroids. I like to counter that with an image of someone more true to what I think Witnesses really are, who lives in the world, and as such reacts to it, but attempts imperfectly to be no part of it—in short, a regular joe that other regular joes might relate to.

Of course, there are some Witnesses who do eat Bible sandwiches. To these, some of what I write is a turnoff. And as stated, to those who heed the WT’s advice as to hanging out where there is riffraff, anything written here is questionable.

[Arauna]

11 hours ago, Thinking said:

think Sis we need to let this person have the last say...or we become like him....don’t waste your precious spiritual energy.

That is why I left.

[TrueTomHarley]

58 minutes ago, Arauna said:

That is why I left.

Beating up on a sweet, cane-toting old lady of failing eyesight! What is wrong with him?

He should be holding out his arm to help the old lady across the street, not shoving her into the path of a semi, much less driving it.

[xero]

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Noted, and probably deserved. It is good for me to be rebuked on this from time to time, for I might be far worse without it. On the other hand:

Actually, arguing doesn’t play a role in “scriptural arguments.” You know the verses as well as I: debates about words, leave blind guides be, answering a fool, even spreading pearls before swine. At least if I spread stuff before “swine,” it is not pearls.

I can think of a way of solving that problem.

In addition to blasting away at everyone as “apostate,” your weird mistake is in thinking you can convert this forum into a Kingdom Hall. You can’t. The internet is inherently a lawless place, where nobody’s identity is known for sure, where it is so easy to hide who and what you are, where rocks lurk to rip the bottom from your love feast boat, where there is no spiritual food, where there is no stabilizing presence of elders, and where any claim of anyone who says he is an elder is unverifiable. Do you think that which is crooked can be made straight?

Or perhaps you somehow think you have a “sacred calling” to argue, but in that case you are in direct contradiction with the Bible and the earthly organization.

On my blog profile, I do nor say that I am. Nor do I have what many seem to feel is the obligatory link to jw.org. That’s deliberate. Everyone has some idiosyncrasies (Lord knows you have some! to the point where your identity itself is questionable) and if you link to the Witness website you convey the impression that you got it from them. I’d rather not tarnish them that way. 

Of course, one can read my posts and readily conclude I am a Witness, which I am, but I don’t outright say so on the front page. I admit I veer into the crass at times. There is one stereotype I like to counter, and that is that JWs eat Bible sandwiches—that is, apart from the Bible, they have no interests at all, from which some interpret that they are nothing but self-righteousness on steroids. I like to counter that with an image of someone more true to what I think Witnesses really are, who lives in the world, and as such reacts to it, but attempts imperfectly to be no part of it—in short, a regular joe that other regular joes might relate to.

Of course, there are some Witnesses who do eat Bible sandwiches. To these, some of what I write is a turnoff. And as stated, to those who heed the WT’s advice as to hanging out where there is riffraff, anything written here is questionable.

Brother X...did you see the game last night?

X - Naahhh...I didn't have any money on it.

(fact is I don't watch football because I'm into track, x games, worlds strongest man competitions, and women's skating...)

[TrueTomHarley]

27 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

However, I'm not the idiot that post stupidity to get input for stupid books as a poor author.

That’s just it. I don’t want to be a poor one. I want to be a rich one. It hasn’t happened yet. I may have to put a price tag on the Russian one.