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IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion


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4 hours ago, Arauna said:

The man who was next to Jesus when he died the death which he inherited from Adam.  If he gets  a resurrection in the new system he will be resurrected from "sheol" or 'hades'. He comes out of the death we all inherited from Adam.  If he rebels after this in the new earthly system there is no ransom any longer to pay for his sins. It is a sin to the degree of Adam and Eve, he will see "second death" - Gehenna. 

The bible itself says that the 'unrighteous' will be raised up Acts 24:15. But it also shows in Revelation 20 that those who are on the earth after Armageddon and rebel against Jehovah when Satan is let lose will see everlasting destruction - Gehenna. I suggest you read revelation 20 for yourself.

"If he gets  a resurrection in the new system" ??

I don't know what made questionable about this man, and you said IF. Jesus promised him that he will be with him in Paradise, so is your IF showing lack of faith in Jesus promise to criminal man? And about when and where he will live is not in our interpretations.

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And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

According to what you want to tell me, it seems how Abyss is/will be on Earth?? .... and devil be locked somewhere on Earth for literal 1000 years??

How is possible that book full of symbolism you and WTJWorg interpreted in a way that some of visions have literal fulfillment and some stayed symbolic and have another meaning??

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... apparently not, as it IS up to God ...

Parents are the ones who give consent to anyone, whether it be an Elder, a ministerial servant or a publisher to study the Bible with their child and/or go in service.  It is a private arrangement and agreement between the parent and the relevant person. Everyone is educated at the meetings, including the children who should sit with their parents. If someone else is "teaching their children" or if children are sitting with someone else besides their parents, then that is by the parents own arra

Noted, and probably deserved. It is good for me to be rebuked on this from time to time, for I might be far worse without it. On the other hand: Actually, arguing doesn’t play a role in “scriptural arguments.” You know the verses as well as I: debates about words, leave blind guides be, answering a fool, even spreading pearls before swine. At least if I spread stuff before “swine,” it is not pearls. I can think of a way of solving that problem. In addition to blasting away at

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2 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

"If he gets  a resurrection in the new system" ??

I don't know what made questionable about this man, and you said IF. Jesus promised him that he will be with him in Paradise, so is your IF showing lack of faith in Jesus promise to criminal man? And about when and where he will live is not in our interpretations.

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And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

According to what you want to tell me, it seems how Abyss is/will be on Earth?? .... and devil be locked somewhere on Earth for literal 1000 years??

How is possible that book full of symbolism you and WTJWorg interpreted in a way that some of visions have literal fulfillment and some stayed symbolic and have another meaning??

Good last question, but one ALL OF US have to work on answering. We don't want to be like the lazy one who's hidden his hand in the banquet bowl, but is to lazy to bring it to his own mouth.

I've always felt that IF I have a question, then it is MY responsibility to go about finding the answers. Not everyone has the same questions, therefore not everyone else has the same responsibilities.

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8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

for abuse that happened to occur among the families of the rank and file

You keep using this lie Tom so I suppose you might just believe it. 

Elders and Ministerial Servants of the JW Org have been convicted of Child Sexual Abuse, some of those Elders even abusing their own children. Court cases have shown that some Elders abused young children whilst they took those young children on the door to door ministry.  

The Elders are equal to church Clergy.  You know that for fact because the Elders use it in court rooms to avoid giving evedence against each other.  

Please stop making yourself look foolish in this way. Pretending that it is only rank and file congregants. Also remember that Elders have withheld information from Police and courts, which surely is not a Christain thing to do. 

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8 hours ago, César Chávez said:

as an advocate of CSA, you, yourself would have to condemn such practice.

Yes i codemn it, but I see it as being part of the Devil's world. So, hence I see the CSA in the JW Org and see it as the same. The JW Org does not stand out as any better. 

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2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

t is not trust. It is acquiescence. He freely admits that ‘his’ side has nothing. But it does not stop him from sabotaging those who have decided, that since that is the case with conventional paradigms, they will look outside them. He has nothing. And he wants to make sure you don’t either. It has become his mission in life, his warped “good news.”.............................................etc etc

A wave of inspiration flooded you ? :) 

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8 hours ago, xero said:

I've always felt that IF I have a question, then it is MY responsibility to go about finding the answers. Not everyone has the same questions, therefore not everyone else has the same responsibilities.

Now that causes many problems.  Um, let me think here. Now do YOU find the answer for yourself, or, do you just go to a Watchtower interpretation ?  Are you Anointed ? Do you think Almighty God will give the true answers to you ? 

What if a congregation of 100 people all do their own 'research' to answer a question of scripture ? Do you think they will all come up with the same answer ?  Um, now that might be causing a division in the congregation.  

And we have this silly idea in the JW Org. Everyone should do 'personal study' BUT, everyone should believe the GB's interpretation of scripture. If you decide the GB are wrong, you'd better not mention it in a KH. It's so funny but sad too. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, xero said:

The time involved which I think is the point which eats away at one...Understanding why so long at times...

Habakkuk 1:2-3

How long, O Jehovah, must I cry for help, but you do not hear? How long must I ask for help from violence, but you do not intervene? Why do you make me witness wrongdoing? And why do you tolerate oppression? Why are destruction and violence before me? And why do quarreling and conflict abound?

We're all familiar with Habakkuk's plight and we can add our own sentiments; "how much longer do we have to watch people suffering because of the things he mentioned, but also because of disease, starvation, old age etc.". My mother in law is 90, and is in severe pain from arthritis every day. Two of my friends died a horrible painful death from cancer. Small children dying of cancer and other diseases... everywhere you look there is SO much anguish and suffering. We ask the same questions as Habakkuk did 2600 years ago.... and Jehovah has had to watch mankind's suffering since the inception of sin. I have to keep reminding myself that Jehovah is the wisest being in the universe, also just and kind. Only he knows the perfect time to step in. Then also if we compare a lifetime of suffering of 80 years or so, and then eternity of mental peace and happiness and physical health, the suffering then is short lived and pales into insignificance.

It's a little easier to bare things if you know they are temporary....

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Back to the topic of CSA

There is absolutely nothing one can do to control what members do in the privacy of their own homes, or other people's homes, regardless their status in the congregation.  Elder "oh so nice" at the KH could be touching Jane, his 6 year old daughter every night during bedtime story time. Ministerial servant "extra helpful" could be touching Tommy, his 12 year old Bible student, while conducting a Bible study with him at his home, with the unsuspecting single mother in the next room; grateful that she could approach a servant to help her with the fatherly task of educating her fatherless son. None of these things the congregation or JW org can be held responsible for. It would not stand up in court. This is why in the case of Candace Conti, for example, it was so important for the court to establish that she was molested during field service, because that was recognized as a church based activity, which the congregation could be held responsible for.

Years later, when Jane and Tommy have reached adulthood, they finally disclose their abuse. Not to the elders, but to the media. And later file a lawsuit. What is the congregation/JW org. supposed to do?

I am not saying the case of Jane and Tommy happens in all cases. Not at all. There are many various scenarios. But the case of Jane and Tommy are based on true stories that actually happened.
Then we have other cases where suspicions of a persons vile acts were reported while the victim was still a child (unfortunately that does not happen very often as children rarely disclose) and usually these cases are reported to the police by the parent. Often times the police don't do anything! If the parent only reports it to the congregation, then the elders have to use their judgement to verify the facts. This is the only time it's possible for the elders to screw up. They may not believe the child or think the child may be exaggerating especially if the perpetrator denies. The child may be saying the truth, and the perpetrator may be a liar. The case gets put on the back burner. A year later the perpetrator molest another child, who says nothing, then another child, who also says nothing...until we have several children who have been molested by the original perpetrator. Now THIS is BAD indeed. Years later one of the victims comes forward and takes the case to court. Now it looks as if we harbor pedophiles. But in fact it's because the elders screwed up, made a mistake in judgement, not because they believed the guy was really a pedophile, but because they did not believe he was a pedophile. Big difference. Bad mistake, no doubt about it.

So you are barking up the wrong tree when you are trying to find fault with the JW organization but really, it is a problem with the organization's members (elders, servants, publishers) when they do bad things in secret. At the KH everyone can put on an act, but who you really are becomes manifest in private. The organization has no control there.  Sometimes, even with simple things, the congregation overseer's job is comparable to trying to herd cats. Trying to motivate people to cooperate is a nightmare sometimes. And bad people will do what they want, and of course they will do it in secret, and when chalenged they will deny and deny.

How would you handle that?

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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

A wave of inspiration flooded you ? :) 

Yes. You were the catalyst. Thank you.

15 minutes ago, Anna said:

[to 4Jah]: And bad people will do what they want, and of course they will do it in secret, and when chalenged they will deny and deny. How would you handle that?

Not to worry. We can expect a True Anointed to come along any minute and fix it.

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2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

don't know what made questionable about this man, and you

I should have used the world "when".  And then you go off on a totally different subject about research on this concept............ srecko .... you always go to the ploy of semantics to change the point of the thread. 

You asked about 2 kinds of unrighteousness...... I give the answer..... without considering this (my use of the word "if" sends you off on a totally other subject...... ....can you not concentrate on one subject at a time...... or is it a deliberate  ploy to troll?

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10 hours ago, Anna said:

So you are barking up the wrong tree when you are trying to find fault with the JW organization

Yes I laughed at your comment. The, i was going to say naivety, but no, it's not, it's deliberately misleading hogwash. 

I still have not gotten any answers about the 25 year pedophile database that the GB have hidden away, that they refuse to hand over to the courts. 

I still cannot find any follow up info about the GB being arrested / taken to court in connection with th CSA. Up until February last year it seemed promising, but then the virus struck and it all went quiet. 

I still haven't gotten answers to the reason why the American HQ only has 25 years worth of information, when the Org started in America, BUT, Australia had 50 years worth of information. 

Now if Australia had info' concerning over 1,000 Pedophiles over the 50 years, um, America must have much more info. BUT it seems America is pretending it only has 25 years worth of Information regarding Pedophiles in America. I wonder what they did with the other 25 years worth then ????? 

The Elders didn't 'screw up', they were told not to report. And there seems to be proof that they were also told to distroy evedence too. 

ALL the proof has been 'up here in lights', and JWI would be able to find it all it seems, as he can track people's comments from way back. For my part i cannot be bothered. I've proved things to myself for the sake of my conscince, so the rest of you can keep your heads in the sand and keep denying everything.  But whilst you do of course, things will get worse. 

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