They're better as a group, than they are individually - (observations from the outside)

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

14 hours ago, xero said:

Even an atheist recognizes the need for organization,

I also recognize the need for organization.  But I note here you say "the need for organization", NOT the need for AN Organsation.  You are so sly with your words.  I obey laws of the land and observe common decency and therefore I follow the organisation of the land I live in, because the laws and common decency are organised.  But that does not make me part of AN Organisation.  

14 hours ago, xero said:

So YOU as a professed Christian simply must choose an organization with which to associate

This is not so. Because at this time there is NO Organisation serving God properly. So why would i want to deliberately displease God and Christ ?  BUT I do expect an  organisation that is pleasing to God and Christ to 'appear' long before Armageddon. Whether that will be a cleansed organsation that already exists, or a newly formed organsation I do not know. And whether i will still be alive to see it I do not know either. At 71 I'm living on 'borrowed time' already.  

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

11 hours ago, Anna said:

Loving cars, is not going to make you into a loving person.

Loving the GB and the JW org is not going to make you into a living person either. And that has been clearly proven many times by many people.  

 

11 hours ago, Anna said:

You tried, but really this is comparing apples to oranges

His original comment said that when a large group of people gather together they cause trouble / behave badly.  He didn't even mention them being a religious group of people. So my example fitted the bill.  It wasn't until his next comment that he mentioned both a 'group of people' and, a religion.  

I think it has been proven beyond doubt, to people that are realistic, that JWs are no better as individuals or as a group, than anyone else. @Witness shared a great link to a religion that gives very practical help to people at this time.  @JW Insider shared some information that puts the JW org on a parr with other religions, but no better.  And you yourself know of some details about the JW Org that you do not fully approve of.  (Things you have written a long time ago).  So, take off the 'rose tinted spectacles' and look at the Watchtower / GB / JW Org from a realistic, truthful perspective. 

 

[Witness]

8 hours ago, xero said:

Even an atheist recognizes the need for organization, however opposers who have lost their reason imagine that they would have knowledge of anything biblical w/o the organizations they carp and moan about. It's like they simply refuse to acknowledge Jesus when he's asked about uprooting the weeds, they want to uproot all of it. Jesus on the other hand said "knock it off, you presumptuous people, you have nothing to do with weeding, it's going to grow together until the harvest and the weeding won't be done by you and your mouth, it'll be done by angels".

So YOU as a professed Christian simply must choose an organization with which to associate. No you're not going to agree w/everything, but that's the deal.

There doesn’t appear to have been a need for the anointed and true believers in Christ down through the ages, to develop an organization…until Russel came along.  Jesus said God is looking for those who worship “in spirit and truth”.  Was Russel worshiping in “spirit and truth”?  How many untruths did that man, and all leaders who followed him, pronounce as truths?  Preaching untruths – lies – is evidence of the lack of Holy Spirit from the God of Truth.  (Num 23:19)

In order to 'gather together as the day draws near', an organization isn’t necessary.  I understand that there have been new regulations,  new warnings where no JW  can “gather” on zoom independently for Bible study, or even to pray together - nothing aside of outlined protocol approved by the GB or their helpers is acceptable.   Is that rule found in the scriptures?  Or, is this a necessary rule that ensures the life of and unity within, an organization? The GB is afraid of what these independent ones may learn from one another, who may realize they have been duped.  The encouraging attitude of the Bereans ends with the JW baptism. (Acts 17:11)

As an elder, are you enforcing these new decrees?

Announcements and Reminders March 2021

FOR ELDERS

7. Private Meetings Arranged via Video conference: “The faithful and discreet slave” has provided practical, Scriptural guidance that highlights principles for individuals to consider when deciding whether to organize or attend a social gathering. (Matt. 24:45-47) Rather than making rules, the emphasis should be on applying Bible principles. When Bible principles are applied, social gatherings can be refreshing and bring honor to Jehovah. —1 Cor. 10:23, 24, 31, 32. 8. While there is no objection to wholesome social gatherings, we have received reports that some have begun to arrange additional meetings and events for spiritual instruction, even beginning and ending such meetings with prayer. While the individuals organizing and participating in such meetings likely are well-intentioned, there is no provision for such arrangements. 9. Jehovah’s people receive ample spiritual instruction and encouragement at congregation meetings, assemblies, and conventions as well as through JW Broadcasting and our publications. Under the guidance of his holy spirit and on the basis of his Word of truth, Jehovah provides what is needed through the faithful and discreet slave. Care should be taken not to organize or promote meetings for spiritual feeding beyond what has been provided by the organization. Such meetings could detract from what Jesus Christ is accomplishing through his congregation on earth today. Adhering to this direction will help all of God’s people to “be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought” and to remain “stabilized in the faith.”—1 Cor. 1:10; Col. 2:6, 7.

Detract from what Jesus is accomplishing, or from what men are attempting to accomplish?  No, there is a need to remain in the same mind as the GB, who by the way, are not inspired.  There was no valid scripture given to support their case.  What rules are we to follow, those of men or those of Jesus Christ? If JWs proudly say they follow the teachings of Christ but choose to adhere to the laws of men, are they not hypocrites?

I do not sit with the deceitful,
    nor do I associate with hypocrites.
⁵ I abhor the assembly of evildoers
    and refuse to sit with the wicked.  Ps 26:4,5

It is wickedness to control the entire spirituality of another, when what is taught transgresses the laws of Christ.

So, what do JWs want,  a social life or truth?  Obviously, the organization only wants their gatherings to be on a social level, and to leave the scriptures out of it. 

8 hours ago, xero said:

it's going to grow together until the harvest and the weeding won't be done by you and your mouth, it'll be done by angels".

About the angels are...

The Greek meaning for angel is “messenger”.   

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g32

This Greek word is also used in relationship to John the Baptist. (Matt 11:10) Yes, Jesus referred to him as an “angel”/messenger. 

Jesus’ “angels” are his anointed servants.  (Mal 3:1-5; John 13:20; Matt 13:37-43; Rev 1:1; 11:1-3; Zech 4:1-5,14; Rev 18:4-8; 14:6-12,15-19)

By the exposure of truth in the presence of lies, the angel/servants/messengers sent by Christ are an integral part of the harvest –separating out the “sons of the kingdom” through the word of Truth instilled in them, by the spirit of God.  (Matt 13:38)

Satan also has his angel messengers who deceive the elect (anointed).  They speak lies and enforce their oppressive rules, to ensure their physical life, and that of their earthly organization.  (2 Cor 11: 13-15; Rev 13:11,12; 16:13-16; 20:7-10)  (Matt 24:24; Mark 13:19-23)

8 hours ago, xero said:

So YOU as a professed Christian simply must choose an organization with which to associate. No you're not going to agree w/everything, but that's the deal.

That's the deal? Jesus condemned the Pharisees for additional rules and burdens put upon the people.  (Matt 23:4; Mark 7:7)

God has never approved of His people listening to lies, and becoming liars themselves. (Jer 23:16)

No, that's not the deal.   We don’t put up with people who lock us away from investigating our beliefs, sharing what we feel with others, or from preventing us from knowing Truth...or seeking out our anointed brethren who are to follow one Master, Jesus Christ.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Anna]

Quite an appropriate lesson for this weekend:

https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/watchtower-study-january-2021/Lessons-From-the-Disciple-Whom-Jesus-Loved/

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

15 hours ago, Anna said:

Try that with your car enthusiasts. Loving cars, is not going to make you into a loving person.

This is not true of Rambler owners, for whom life is a 24/7 love-in. Such dreamy conduct you never saw.

[xero]

12 hours ago, Witness said:

No, that's not the deal.   We don’t put up with people who lock us away from investigating our beliefs, sharing what we feel with others, or from preventing us from knowing Truth...or seeking out our anointed brethren who are to follow one Master, Jesus Christ.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So you simply want to disobey Jesus and go on with your unauthorized weeding. You left the organization because you wanted to weed it. Guess what? Not your job. Not only that, you wouldn't know what you know about the bible w/o it.

[Witness]

1 hour ago, xero said:

So you simply want to disobey Jesus

Perhaps you can explain with God's Word, how I have disobeyed Jesus.

1 hour ago, xero said:

You left the organization because you wanted to weed it. Guess what? Not your job.

Are you saying that it is the elder body who has been designated as the ‘harvesters’ through their shunning and disfellowshipping techniques?

 

 

[Kick_Faceinator]

2 hours ago, xero said:

So you simply want to disobey Jesus and go on with your unauthorized weeding. You left the organization because you wanted to weed it. Guess what? Not your job. Not only that, you wouldn't know what you know about the bible w/o it.

 

[xero]

6 minutes ago, Kick_Faceinator said:

 

He presents a false dilemma. It isn't organization vs conscience. On the other hand Jesus was right. Opposers simply want to weed the congregation out of existence. ^" If, though, you keep on biting and devouring one another,+ look out that you do not get annihilated by one another.' -Ga 5:15

[Anna]

30 minutes ago, Witness said:

it is the elder body who has been designated as the ‘harvesters’ through their shunning and disfellowshipping techniques?

You are getting confused. The role of the elders is to help shepherd the sheep and protect the flock, not to judge who will gain everlasting life and who will not. If someone is disfellowshipped it is on account of known unrepentant wrong doing and according to the scriptures. Since the elders cannot read hearts, the ultimate judge will be Jesus. Which means that possibly some who are disfellowshipped may be judged worthy of life. Thankfully Jesus' got this, and if we're doing all we can to be finally found by him spotless, unblemished and in peace, no one has anything to worry about.

[xero]

What opposers refuse to acknowledge is that Jehovah has always used organization to further his will and purposes. (they wouldn't even know anything at all without these organizations whom they've chosen to oppose and criticize) Sometimes these organizations are listening and responding as they should in our eyes and sometimes not so much. The question to answer is which organization is he using, or which organizations and to what end. Clearly the nominally Christian organizations have been used to one degree or another over time (wheat and weeds growing together). The individual (you and I) with our God-given conscience and our own responsibility have to determine which organization we will associate with and justify our choices in this regard. Suggesting that organization in unnecessary is just unscriptural idiocy.

[TrueTomHarley]

On 3/12/2021 at 12:06 PM, xero said:

when it struck me what was most different about JW's was that their behavior improved to the extent that they got together as a group.

It is all on the GIGO principle. Certainly not everything Bible based is a masterpiece, nor is everything of the overall world garbage, but using the former as a base from which to build around works much better than using the latter—which is apt to produce “educated fools.”

The speaker today kept returning to his opening illustration of baking bread. You can’t mess with the proportions. The bread is the food. In his illustration, the cake pan is the organization that presents the bread in edible, palatable, and digestible form. The “kneading the bread,” without which it will not rise, he liked to Christian activity.