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They're better as a group, than they are individually - (observations from the outside)


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7 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

So, this outwitting continues, it seems.

Two quotes from Daniel have their context. Is Babylon a forerunner of WTJWorg?
Should the quote from John mean that WTJWorg gets power from Satan?

    Hello guest!
 Was the baptism of John from heaven or from men?”
    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
 Then they drew conclusions among themselves, saying: “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will say, ‘Why did you not believe him?’
    Hello guest!
 But if we say, ‘From men,’ the people one and all will stone us, for they are convinced that John was a prophet.”
    Hello guest!
    Hello guest!
 So they replied that they did not know its source.
    Hello guest!
 Jesus said to them: “Neither am I telling you by what authority I do these things.” (let the reader use discernment)

That's all you're getting for now because this exchange is less appealing than watching paint dry.

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Just to introduce another item into this consideration. It seems that the number 12 or its multiples in the Bible always appears as literal, never symbolic. Jacob's 12 sons (males) were exactly 12   The 12 tribes of Israel were actually 12, not 13   The Levitical priesthood was organized in a multiple of 12, namely 24 divisions (1Chr 24: 1-19)   The recruitment of assistants and officers who served David were organized in groups of 24,000 per month

It would also resolve the issue of there having been more than a million partakers who faced death for their Christian faith rather than give a pinch of incense to the Roman emperor, or contaminate their conscience with other forms of idolatry or blood. It's either that or explicitly allow for the idea that an earthly hope had been opened up generally to Christians before 1935.

This is correct. Russell never took the place of Christ before his Church. Christ was the Head of the Body, and Russell would never consider himself the "Head" of the Body of Christ. This doesn't mean that Russell would ever have admitted that any other person could be God's "mouthpiece." Russell only said this about himself, and no one else. Also Russell printed letters that addressed himself as "the faithful and wise servant." He printed no letters that identified anyone else as that "faithful

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1 hour ago, xero said:

Opposers wouldn't know squat about the Bible if there wasn't an organization to superintend its preservation and transmission to the present.

 

1 hour ago, xero said:

An organization or even a person can be USED by Jehovah AND that person may be approved by Jehovah or disapproved by him.

It looks like you are amending your idea somewhat from the first statement.  

Noah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, the minor prophets, John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, the apostles.  These were opposers who spoke against the majority, cutting to the chase by proclaiming the sins of the world around them - the sins of their own people.

None of them had money, none answered to an established earthly organization. None were waited on daily by servants who provided all of their needs, like your organization’s leaders. None of them dressed up in the finest clothing.   But, all were spiritual men inspired by the Holy Spirit. 

Isn’t it amazing that God can choose whom He wants to proclaim His will without the use of an earthly organization?  He has a history of doing this, but we don't see a written history of His using an organization.  

There is a valid account of a family in the mid 1800’s who lived a life of homesteading, as thousands have over the years.  They had a Bible that they read out of each day and they tried to live their life by it.  An earthly worldly organization wasn’t necessary to bring them the scriptures. 

I think as an elder, you desire the position you have as a “natural man” appointed with authority in the organization.  (1 Cor 2:12-16)  It's hard to let go of a life that rewards one's personal esteem.  (Matt 16:25)

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
    neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts.”  Isa 55:8,9

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1 hour ago, Witness said:

 

It looks like you are amending your idea somewhat from the first statement.  

Noah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, the minor prophets, John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, the apostles.  These were opposers who spoke against the majority, cutting to the chase by proclaiming the sins of the world around them - the sins of their own people.

None of them had money, none answered to an established earthly organization. None were waited on daily by servants who provided all of their needs, like your organization’s leaders. None of them dressed up in the finest clothing.   But, all were spiritual men inspired by the Holy Spirit. 

Isn’t it amazing that God can choose whom He wants to proclaim His will without the use of an earthly organization?  He has a history of doing this, but we don't see a written history of His using an organization.  

There is a valid account of a family in the mid 1800’s who lived a life of homesteading, as thousands have over the years.  They had a Bible that they read out of each day and they tried to live their life by it.  An earthly worldly organization wasn’t necessary to bring them the scriptures. 

I think as an elder, you desire the position you have as a “natural man” appointed with authority in the organization.  (1 Cor 2:12-16)  It's hard to let go of a life that rewards one's personal esteem.  (Matt 16:25)

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
    neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts.”  Isa 55:8,9

If you could study Hemingway's style and try to copy that, maybe someone might listen. You jabber on and on. It's like nails on a chalkboard going through anything you've posted. I say this with all due respect and when I say "nails on a chalkboard" I mean that in a good way. :)

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1 hour ago, xero said:

If you could study Hemingway's style and try to copy that, maybe someone might listen. You jabber on and on. It's like nails on a chalkboard going through anything you've posted. I say this with all due respect and when I say "nails on a chalkboard" I mean that in a good way. :)

🙂  I hated that sound when I was a kid.  But the sound of false prophesy and false teachings are even worse in my ears. It is either tolerated, or not heard – not recognized as scripture defines it; or, it is rejected and proclaimed verbally why it is rejected.  (Deut 18:20-22)  (Isa 58:1; Rev 8:13)

What you say, reminds me of Isa 30:

“What sorrow awaits my rebellious children,”
    says the Lord.
“You make plans that are contrary to mine.
    You make alliances not directed by my Spirit,
    thus piling up your sins.

Now go and write down these words.
    Write them in a book.
They will stand until the end of time
    as a witness
that these people are stubborn rebels
    who refuse to pay attention to the Lord’s instructions.
10 They tell the seers,
    “Stop seeing visions!”
They tell the prophets,
    “Don’t tell us what is right.
Tell us nice things.
    Tell us lies.
11 Forget all this gloom.
    Get off your narrow path.
Stop telling us about your
    ‘Holy One of Israel.’”  Isa 30:1,8-11

 

 

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20 hours ago, Anna said:

If someone is disfellowshipped it is on account of known unrepentant wrong doing and according to the scriptures.

Do you seriously believe what you've written ?  Yes of course you do.  It reminds me of the Elder that phoned my wife and told her that I was disfellowshipped. When she told that Elder that I had left of my own choice, he replied, "It's all the same to us". 

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20 hours ago, xero said:

What opposers refuse to acknowledge is that Jehovah has always used organization to further his will and purposes. (they wouldn't even know anything at all without these organizations whom they've chosen to oppose and criticize) Sometimes these organizations are listening and responding as they should in our eyes and sometimes not so much. The question to answer is which organization is he using, or which organizations and to what end. Clearly the nominally Christian organizations have been used to one degree or another over time (wheat and weeds growing together). The individual (you and I) with our God-given conscience and our own responsibility have to determine which organization we will associate with and justify our choices in this regard. Suggesting that organization in unnecessary is just unscriptural idiocy.

He hasn't always used organisations.  And he certainly punished the Nation of Israel in Babylon and Egypt. And surely there was a time when no known religion was serving God properly, so God would not have been using a whole organisation. A time when ordinary people were not allowed to have the Bible and it was punishable by death. 

God and Christ do not seem to be using any organisation right now. 

Quote, "Clearly the nominally Christian organizations have been used to one degree or another over time (wheat and weeds growing together)."

Now this statement is interesting. So you are suggesting that other religions are wheat and weeds growing together but that the Watchtower / JW Org is just Wheat. Um, that would mean you are saying that the Harvesting has already been done

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9 hours ago, Anna said:

You are getting confused. The role of the elders is to help shepherd the sheep and protect the flock, not to judge who will gain everlasting life and who will not. If someone is disfellowshipped it is on account of known unrepentant wrong doing and according to the scriptures. Since the elders cannot read hearts, the ultimate judge will be Jesus. Which means that possibly some who are disfellowshipped may be judged worthy of life. Thankfully Jesus' got this, and if we're doing all we can to be finally found by him spotless, unblemished and in peace, no one has anything to worry about.

The Watchtower teaches:

"Only Jehovah's Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the "great crowd," as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil." 

    Hello guest!

According to Watchtower doctrine, this means all those disfellowshipped by the elder body and announced from the platform as “no longer one of Jehovah’s Witnesses”, would ultimately be sentenced to death stripping any future prospect of life for that person. In effect, the elder body actually believe they have the right to “save your soul”.

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17 hours ago, xero said:

But opposers are ultimately cowards and lazy as it's easy to complain and point out real or imagined deficiencies, but these either can't or won't do anything to do better.

I can feel the HATE coming from you through your words.  The whole of that comment is sick. 

I did something better. I left the JW Org because of all the immorality and CSA they were trying to hide, and then I did, and still do, my own Bible studying and prayer to God through Christ. And I warn people about the dangers of the JW Org. However i also give people information about Almighty God and Christ, and about the coming judgement of every individual on Earth.  And I suggest to people that once they have the information that it would be good for them to read God's written word. I also make it known that once a person has the true knowledge, then it is their own responsibility to start to serve God as best they can.  

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54 minutes ago, Kick_Faceinator said:

The Watchtower teaches:

"Only Jehovah's Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the "great crowd," as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil." 

    Hello guest!

According to Watchtower doctrine, this means all those disfellowshipped by the elder body and announced from the platform as “no longer one of Jehovah’s Witnesses”, would ultimately be sentenced to death stripping any future prospect of life for that person. In effect, the elder body actually believe they have the right to “save your soul”.

Not necessarily. The WTBTS understands the former point correctly, however they're not dogmatic about whom might be in each group.

"...I could be arguing in my spare time"

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