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They're better as a group, than they are individually - (observations from the outside)


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8 hours ago, Anna said:

 @Witness all your criticism is about the imperfections of man. You might as well criticize all those who failed in Bible times as well. Criticize Moses for his presumtiousness, criticize Aaron for his weakness and excuses, criticize Job for his wrong thoughts, criticize David for his lack of control, criticize Jonah for his disobedience, criticize all of Jesus' disciples.

These inspired men, were sent by God.  None of them, were false prophets who deceived the "elect"/saints/anointed.

Matt 24:24;Mark 13:22,20; Rev 13:1,2,11,12; 16:13-16

8 hours ago, Anna said:

You are like a modern day Diotrephese.

"I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, does not receive us. Therefore, if I come, I will call to mind his deeds which he does, prating against us with malicious words. And not content with that, he himself does not receive the brethren, and forbids those who wish to, putting them out of the church."

Diotrephes was instigating disfellowshipping.  Who does this today?  Who calls anyone who refuses their false doctrine, "despicable apostates"?  Who, before Christ arrives, has decided they are "faithful and discreet"?  The GB are the preeminent ones, lording it over all of Christ's brothers.  Was John going to let Diotrephes get away with it?

Open your eyes, Anna.  You once said that although 1914 was a difficult doctrine for you to accept, you wouldn't make waves in the congregation concerning it.  If your heart knew it was false, why wouldn't you stand for truth?  It is a core lying doctrine of the organization. 

"Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. He who does good is of God, but he who does evil has not seen God. 

Demetrius has a good testimony from all, and from the truth itself. And we also bear witness, and you know that our testimony is true."

3 John 9-12

God does not expect us to settle for lies.  

 

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Just to introduce another item into this consideration. It seems that the number 12 or its multiples in the Bible always appears as literal, never symbolic. Jacob's 12 sons (males) were exactly

Not really. Somewhere down the line watchtower got mixed up in thinking their organization can offer the same salvation as Jesus Christ. According to the Bible, it’s only Jesus Christ who can save. “O

This is correct. Russell never took the place of Christ before his Church. Christ was the Head of the Body, and Russell would never consider himself the "Head" of the Body of Christ. This doesn't mean

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5 minutes ago, Witness said:

Who calls anyone who refuses their false doctrine, "despicable apostates"? 

CC.

Should the Librarian (that old hen) toss him out on his ear once again, I suggest his reincarnation should be “Buffalo Springfield.”

It fits well with his motto: “Step out of line, the man comes and takes you away.”

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3 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

Were these inspired men appointed by God, perfect? What do you think of Arron when he made the golden calf for the people to worship? How about King David? Should I go on?🤔

 

10 minutes ago, Witness said:

These inspired men, were sent by God.  None of them, were false prophets who deceived the "elect"/saints/anointed.

Matt 24:24;Mark 13:22,20; Rev 13:1,2,11,12; 16:13-16

 

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21 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

Didn't you "sigh" about me brown beating people and starting fights?

I would never brown beat people. It’s not what I do. It even sounds somehow racist, which will not fly in today’s atmosphere.

21 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

So, it wouldn't matter if I’m nice or hard,

How would you know?

21 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

you people just don't want to be repudiated. 

Actually, I pray each night that I may be repudiated by someone ill-mannered. I think most people do.

I mean, how many expect God to send his servant Dirty Harry to address the unruly with, “Ya feeling lucky today, punk?”

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15 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

You didn't answer the question. The apostles were inspired by God's Holy Spirit. I recall when Jesus rebuked Peter. Were those men perfect? Didn't the Pharisees think of Jesus as a false prophet? Seems to me, people also felt Paul was a false prophet, especially after persecuting Christians.

But we know by their teachings that they were not false prophets. Their teachings have remained down to this day.   We also know by the teachings of the WT's leaders that they ARE false prophets.  

False prophets do not derive their prophesy through inspiration from God.  They derive this inspiration to deceive, from the evil one.  

We have solid proof that your leaders are false teachers/false prophets, just as we have solid proof that Jesus and the apostles are genuine teachers of truth.

We recognize both groups by their "fruits", of which a massive amount of your leader's fruits have ended up in the trash, as @Srecko Sostar has brought to our attention.  (John 15:1-8; Matt 7:15-19)

Your leader's fruits have not remained, even for the brief time period the organization has been in existence. 

"You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you."  John 15:16

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2 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

You are not important enough for me to give a darn. 😉

I obviously am, being included in your comments all the time. If you didn’t do that, my attention would probably wander elsewhere, but you keep dragging it back here.

You’re not really much of a people person, are you?

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6 hours ago, Kick_Faceinator said:

Jesus commanded us to not go after anyone who claims the end is here, aka “the time is at hand”.

And he said, “See that you are not led astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he!’ and, ‘The time is at hand!’ Do not go after them.” Luke 21:8

According to Jesus, we are commanded to not listen to the governing body, we are commanded to not listen to JW’s, and we are commanded to not listen to anyone else who’s proclaiming the one message Jesus said to not proclaim, “the time is at hand”. If we do listen to these men, it proves we are being disobedient to Jesus. Is it really something so simple as a wrong prediction, or, is it rather a blatant disregard for Jesus’ command?

7A04F70C-8D32-497B-AE9F-ED629429B517.jpeg

 

 

Russell's intention is clearly seen from the book's first page where he quotes theses scriptures:

"Times of Refreshing shall come from the Presence of the Lord: and He shall send Jesus Christ, *** Whom the Heavens must retain until the Times of Restitution of All Things; which God hath Spoken by the Mouth of all His Holy Prophets since the World began." "Ye, Brethren, are not in Darkness, that that Day should Overtake you as a Thief,"—Acts 3:19-21;1Thes.5:4.

In context, Jesus at Luke 21:8  is talking about a person's impersonating or saying they are the expected Messiah during the time of the end. Russell did no such thing.

In verse 34-35 Jesus is clearly defining the urgency of keeping in expectation of him: "But pay attention to yourselves that your hearts never become weighed down with overeating and heavy drinking and anxieties of life, and suddenly that day be instantly upon you  as a snare. For it will come upon all those dwelling on the face of the whole earth. Keep awake, then, all the time making supplication that you may succeed in escaping all these things that must occur and in standing before the Son of man.”

It is in that spirit, the spirit of keeping awake and in anticipation, that the book "The Time is at Hand" was written. 

 “Look! I am coming as a thief.  Happy is the one who stays awake and keeps his outer garments, so that he may not walk naked and people look upon his shamefulness.Rev 15:16

 

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2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Answer this. Why Would God find it necessary to include in scripture, that people should pick among themselves 7 men full of spirit in Acts 6?

I remember when you used that argument when 7 GB were ruling.  Now, it's 8.  Oops!

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Where's your solid proof, that the gentile times didn't start in 607BC and ended in AD1914. I haven't seen this so-called "solid proof" that you, now, promote.

This is all I'm saying about 1914 for the benefit of those with eyes that see and ears that hear.  (Isa 29:18)

Do birth pains follow a birth?  Your governing leaders seem to think so.

After God’s Messianic kingdom was born in the heavens at the close of the Gentile Times in 1914, Satan the Devil and his army of demon angels were cast down in defeat from heaven to the vicinity of this earth. Wt 76/12/15

What were those events from 1914 onward, according to what Jesus said in his prophecy? Why was the “end” “not yet” after those initial events?As in the case of nineteen centuries ago, the international war, the food shortages, the pestilences and earthquakes, were a beginning of pangs of distress.” (Matt. 24:8) 

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Gentile Times, when secular archeology suggests King Jehoiakim started in 610/9 BC and three years later, 607/6BC Judah and Jerusalem was met with a destruction campaign.

Today's "Gentile times" have NOT ended.  “Gentiles” in the form of the elder body presently trample the anointed priesthood and Temple of God in the organization. Matt 24:15; Dan 11:31,32,36; 2 Thess 2:4; Rev 11:1-3; Eccl 10:5-7

 1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22

 

 Jesus was established as king in the first century.  Ps 110:1,2; 1 Pet 3:22; Matt 28:18; 1 Cor 15:25,24; Eph 1:20-23

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3 hours ago, Witness said:

Open your eyes, Anna.  You once said that although 1914 was a difficult doctrine for you to accept, you wouldn't make waves in the congregation concerning it.  If your heart knew it was false, why wouldn't you stand for truth?  It is a core lying doctrine of the organization. 

It is a difficult doctrine for me to accept, yes, however, I am not saying it can't be true. The organization is obviously convinced it is true. If one day there is sufficient evidence for them to stop being so dogmatic about it, they may change their opinion. They have done it before with other things. If that happens, then it won't change my opinion about Jws. It will remain the same as it is today because I do not hang my faith on the 1914 doctrine.

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On 3/19/2021 at 10:14 AM, César Chávez said:

Answer this. Why Would God find it necessary to include in scripture, that people should pick among themselves 7 men full of spirit in Acts 6?

From the context it seems that the 11 +1 apostles were meeting in Jerusalem to devote themselves to prayer and the ministry of the word. This is probably a reference to the necessary spiritual preparation the apostles needed to focus on for producing the foundation of teaching we now find in the Christian Greek Scriptures. This was the priority so soon after Jesus was resurrected because Jesus had asked them to meet together in Jerusalem, at least until the holy spirit opened up their understanding of the Hebrew Scriptures, and who knew how long it would be before they would be persecuted and even killed:

(Luke 24:45-49) 45 Then he opened up their minds fully to grasp the meaning of the Scriptures, 46 and he said to them, “This is what is written: that the Christ would suffer and rise from among the dead on the third day, 47 and on the basis of his name, repentance for forgiveness of sins would be preached in all the nations—starting out from Jerusalem. 48 You are to be witnesses of these things. 49 And look! I am sending upon you what my Father promised. You, though, stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”

(Acts 1:4) . . .While he was meeting with them, he ordered them: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but keep waiting for what the Father has promised, about which you heard from me;

But shortly after the spirit was poured out upon them, and upon many other women and men among the Christians (Acts 2) there was a problem with Jewish prejudice against non-Jewish Christians. The Greek-speaking Christians were being overlooked (ignored) when it came to sharing the supplies of physical food among them. (Some Jews even assumed that this prejudice was Scriptural.)

So the apostles were still devoting themselves to prayer and teaching and didn't have the time at that moment to manage the distribution of food. They needed some capable ministerial servants or "deacons" for this purpose.

(Acts 6:2-4) . . .So the Twelve called the multitude of the disciples together and said: “It is not right for us to leave the word of God to distribute food to tables (literally, to be deacons for tables: διακονεῖν-diakonein). 3 So, brothers, select for yourselves seven reputable men from among you, full of spirit and wisdom, that we may appoint them over this necessary matter; 4 but we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word.”

So the 12 apostles needed some "deacons" (ministerial servants) to manage the daily food distributions. But these deacons were well qualified in that they were filled with the recently poured out holy spirit. They had already gained the respect of the multitude of Christians through their actions and ability to teach. It shows, that like in 1 Timothy, deacons were to have almost the same qualifications as elders, but elders had more of the teaching responsibilities.

(1 Timothy 3:8-13) . . .Ministerial servants [Greek: "deacons"] should likewise be serious, not double-tongued, not indulging in a lot of wine, not greedy of dishonest gain, 9 holding the sacred secret of the faith with a clean conscience. 10 Also, let these be tested as to fitness first; then let them serve as ministers [Greek: "deacons"], as they are free from accusation. 11 ... 13 For the men who minister [Gk: "are deacons"] in a fine manner are acquiring for themselves a fine standing and great freeness of speech in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

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4 hours ago, Anna said:

In context, Jesus at Luke 21:8  is talking about a person's impersonating or saying they are the expected Messiah during the time of the end. Russell did no such thing.

Thank you for the reply Anna.

And you’re right, Russell didn’t impersonate the expected messiah.

Unfortunately, the poor guy fell into the same trap many other men have fallen victim of in proclaiming Christ’s presence began before the “man of lawlessness” has been revealed.

“However, brothers, concerning the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you  2 not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here. 3 Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction.” 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

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