Musing on prayer

[Witness]

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

From scripture I've only seen Jesus guide the anointed to pray to Almight God. The anointed pray through Christ of course but I haven't seen Jesus say 'Pray to me' 

However, I am not anointed, so I do not expect to fully understand scripture. I do not expect God or Chrsit to open up the scriptures to me. 

I think there is a need for an organisation that is run by the True Anointed. The scripture of ten men clinging to the skirt of a JEW, has to be fulfilled. So I do not expect the Earthly class to fully understand scripture. 

I agree that Christ and the Anointed 'are one' as in 'one spiritual body' with Christ as it's head.

We were all meant to understand the word of God. If that wasn’t the case, we wouldn’t recognize truth.   Yes, the anointed are to be the teachers that bring living water they have received from the spirit of the Father and Christ, to those who crave it.  The same living water fills each heart.   (Mal 2:7; John 4:14; 7:38+)

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mal+2%3A7%3B+John+4%3A14%3B+7%3A38%3B+John13%3A20%3B+Matt.10%3A14%3B+Luke+10%3A16%3B+1Cor.4%3A1%3B+2Cor.5%3A20%3B+Col.1%3A20%3B+Mal.2%3A7%3B+Rev.1%3A6%3B+5%3A10%3B+Zech.8%3A23%3B+Rev.21%3A3%3B+Micah4%3A2%3B+Rev.14%3A1&version=CSB

You have already been blessed by Holy Spirit.  Without it, you would not perceive the peril that the anointed face in the organization.  You recognize that the elder body have replaced God’s priesthood.   The elders “stand where they do not belong”, in the Temple/dwelling of God. (Mark 13:14; 1 Cor 3:16; Rev 11:2; Dan 7:25; 8:10,13; 11:36; 2 Thess 2:4; Luke 21:24; Rev 13:10,7)

Could we perceive this on our own, without the blessing of our eyes being opened? (Isa 35:5; Acts 26:17,18) This blindness was prophesied to occur during the last days. (Isa 6:10; Col 2:8; Rev 13:10,11,12,14; 2:20)  You have reacted appropriately to the sins and hypocrisy that you witness in the organization, and have left – you have exited the apostate “city”. (Rev 18:4-8) You look for the “mountains/hills” of Judea where the “true anointed” will be found.  (Matt 24:15,16)

I know you have noticed that most JWs here, cannot see the grave circumstances that exist among the anointed and themselves in the organization.  Instead, there is mocking, a turning of the head, and complacency when it is addressed.  Why? Their eyes are sealed over. (John 12:40; 2 Cor 11:13-15; Rev 16:13-16) They are drinking “Wormwood’s” (fallen anointed) poisoned waters, and not those from Christ, although they believe they are. (Heb 12:15; Rev 8:10,11; Jude 1:12,13) They have accepted the life they want, even though they are “always learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.”  (1 Thess 5:3; 2 Tim 3:7; 4:1)   When we put a stop to drinking in those lies, and begin our search by praying for authentic truth, the veil is lifted from our spiritual eyes.  (Rev 3:18-20)

Here are just a few scriptures that apply to those not anointed, and to all:

John 11:25,26 - Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me, even if he dies, will live.  Everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this? ”  John 11:25,26

Heb 6:10 - “For God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you demonstrated for his name by serving the saints -- and by continuing to serve them.”

1 Cor 1:2 – “To the church of God at Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called as saints, with all those in every place who call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord -- both their Lord and ours.”

Matt 25:37-40 - “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? ³⁸ When did we see you a stranger and take you in, or without clothes and clothe you? ³⁹ When did we see you sick, or in prison, and visit you?’

⁴⁰ “And the King will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

"The Spirit is the one who gives life. The flesh doesn't help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.”

Rev 22:17“Both the Spirit and the bride say, "Come! " Let anyone who hears, say, "Come! " Let the one who is thirsty come. Let the one who desires take the water of life freely.”

“Then he told his servants, 'The banquet is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 "Go then to where the roads exit the city and invite everyone you find to the banquet.' 10 "So those servants went out on the roads and gathered everyone they found, both evil and good. The wedding banquet was filled with guests.”

This banquet is the revealing of truth, the unfolding of Revelation which you are already beginning to perceive through the blessing of Holy Spirit. (Ps 119:130; Dan 8:26; 12:4)  The true "faithful" anointed do not arrive with bells and whistles as the GB have, with their army of elders; but in time, the “mountain” of truth will become more prominent, and the mountain of lies will become level ground.  Zech 4:1-14

 

 

[Witness]

5 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

From scripture I've only seen Jesus guide the anointed to pray to Almighty God. The anointed pray through Christ of course but I haven't seen Jesus say 'Pray to me' 

"And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me  for anything in my name, and I will do it."  John 14:13,14  NIV

Do you have a copy of the Wt. Greek Kingdom Interlinear?  This attachment is from the 1969 edition, and notice how the word, "me" is removed from the English rendering on the right for John 14:14.  

Today's NWT also omits the word "me" - "If you ask anything in my name, I will do it."

 

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

John 14 : 14   (Bible Hub)

New International Version
You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

New Living Translation
Yes, ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it!

English Standard Version
If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.

Berean Study Bible
If you ask Me for anything in My name, I will do it.

I have the 1985 Interlinear and the word ME is removed.  

[Anna]

I don't see ME in this interlinear

https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh14.pdf

 

[Witness]

16 minutes ago, Anna said:

I don't see ME in this interlinear

https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh14.pdf

 

I don't either.  🙂

But I see it here:  https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/14-14.htm

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

12 hours ago, Anna said:

I don't see ME in this interlinear

https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh14.pdf

 

But it doesn't have the Greek for ME or for THIS in that Interlinear. 

Whereas the New World Translation Commitee, in the 1985 Edition says the Greek is 'in the original Greek' by Wescott and Hort -1881. And it includes both the words, ME and THIS. 

But the Watchtower / Leaders do not include either in the English rendering.  There must be something here relating to 'anyone adding to or taking from scripture'................... 

[Anna]

Some interesting observations form a  blog:

John 14:14 'me' is omitted after 'ask' in the following trinitarian Bibles:

ASV; CBW; Darby; GNV; JB; KJ21; KJV; MLB; NEB; REB; NKJV; LB; MKJV (Green); NLV; RSV; WEB; WE; Young’s. 
Many of them do not mention an alternate reading of 'me' in a note! And, likewise, many of the Bibles which do translate ‘ask me’ in this verse do not mention an alternate reading without ‘me’!!

The prestigious The Expositor’s Greek New Testament (Vol. 1, p. 824) also omits “me” from its text and does not even bother to address the matter in its voluminous notes.  Bible Analyzer calls this 5-volume work “The Premier Greek Resource.”

This is a disputed text. There exists manuscript evidence that ‘me’ may not have been used by the original writer.  (Also see http://sahidicinsight.blogspot.com/  - Nov. 2, 2010 - where ‘Memra’ explains the importance of the ancient Coptic translation of this verse.)

However, there is no such dispute about John 16:23 where John wrote: “... whatever you ask the Father for, he will give you in my name.” We should ask the Father (not the Son) in Jesus’ name. Therefore 'me' at John 14:14 is even more in doubt.

Bowman has access to a copy of (and is quite familiar with) the 1984 NWT Reference Bible. He repeatedly quotes from it and refers to notes in it in both this 1991 publication (Understanding Jehovah’s Witnesses) and his 1989 publication, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Jesus Christ, and the Gospel of John.

Yes, the 1984 NWT Reference Bible (which does have notes, of course) says in a footnote for John 14:14:

14* “Ask,” ADIt and in agreement with 15:16 and 16:23; P66 [Aleph]BWVgSy(h,p), “ask me.”

Source:

http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2010/11/john-1414-from-rdb-files.html

 

[Anna]

From the sahidicinsight blogspot linked above:

 

John 14:14: To "me" or not to "me", that is the question

 

With apologies to Shakespeare's Hamlet.

Many modern Bible translations are based on a critical text like the Nestle-Aland 27 (NA27). At John 14:14 such texts read: ἐάν τι αἰτήσητέ με ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί μου ἐγὼ ποιήσω, "If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it." (English Standard Version)

New Testament textual scholars consider the Alexandrian text to be generally "the best text and the most faithful in preserving the original." (Bruce M. Metzger, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, p. 5) The "me" reading is found in a number of such ancient textual witnesses, including p66 (2nd century).

The Sahidic Coptic text (2nd/3rd century) is also in the Alexandrian text family. Like still other ancient witnesses, it does not have "me" at John 14:14.

Rather, the Sahidic Coptic text reads: ЄΤЄΤΝϢΑΝΑΙΤЄΙ ΝΟΥϨШΒ ϨΜ ΠΑΡΑΝ ΠΑΙ ϯΝΑΑΑϤ, "If you should ask anything in my name, this I will do."

Some scholars think that "ask me" is original because it is the more difficult reading. That is a consideration, but a more important consideration would be if it squares with everything else that Jesus said and did.

"Ask me" would be logical in the immediate context of Jesus' speaking with his disciples while he was still with them. Even the first Christian martyr Stephen implored Jesus as if he were still present. (Acts 7:59) But it is not unusual that Jesus as a living presence would still resonate with Stephen, since Jesus' ministry and resurrection were recent events for Stephen.

However, beyond that context, Jesus directs Christians to pray to "Our Father" (Matthew 6:9), and the apostle Paul said "I bend my knees to the Father." (Ephesians 3:14)

There is no other verse in the New Testament where Jesus requests or directs that prayer as an act of worship should be addressed to him. If the "me" reading is original, it would be an anomaly that is out of character with the whole New Testament.

"Ask me...in my name" is tautological, a needless repetition that is also ambiguous. Further, in the context of the Gospel of John as a whole, "ask me...in my name" is strange doctrine, if it is taken to refer to prayer.

But the Sahidic Coptic reading, ЄΤЄΤΝϢΑΝΑΙΤЄΙ ΝΟΥϨШΒ ϨΜ ΠΑΡΑΝ ΠΑΙ ϯΝΑΑΑϤ, "If you should ask anything in my name, this I will do," harmonizes with the rest of Jesus' teaching. -- John 15:16; 16:23

 

http://sahidicinsight.blogspot.com/

 

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

But, this does not detract from the fact that, the Watchtower / Leaders, used a Greek manuscript, which one would presume they believed to be true, which included the word ME. Then those same Watchtower / Leaders decided to leave the word ME out of their translation. 

The question then arises, why did they use such a Greek manuscript ? IF, the Watchtower / Leaders say that their translation is 'spirit guided', why would they use a 'false' Greek manuscript ? 

However, from a personal viewpoint, i would never pray directly to Jesus. My prayers will always go to Almighty God through Christ.  I honestly don't know if it should be different fof the True Anointed ones that ARE the Body of Christ. 

[Witness]

18 minutes ago, Anna said:

However, there is no such dispute about John 16:23 where John wrote: “... whatever you ask the Father for, he will give you in my name.” We should ask the Father (not the Son) in Jesus’ name. Therefore 'me' at John 14:14 is even more in doubt.

 

Jesus did tell us to ask the Father in his name.  There is also this:

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out."  

This is an invitation.  Is God the mediator of Jesus?  How do we come to him without communicating with him?  John 6:37

 Berean Interlinear Bible:

14ἐάν (If) τι (anything) αἰτήσητέ (you ask) με (Me)c ἐν (in) τῷ (the) ὀνόματί (name) μου (of Me), ἐγὼ (I) ποιήσω (will do it).

 There are many scriptures we can dispute.  And, especially the NWT which has taken the Greek word for "worship" whenever used in relationship to Jesus Christ,  and changed it to "obeisance".  Yet, not only is "worship" used for God, but for Satan.  

That is a serious step to take, which has its basis in men's doctrine, who do not want you to pray to Christ, and it is no different than changing scripture to enforce the  trinity.  

For to which of the angels did He ever say:

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?

And again:

“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?

6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:

“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

Do you see this?  Do you really believe that God is going to tell us to give "obeisance" to Jesus Christ when Jesus is brought back into the world?  Or, does God expect us to give him worship?  Heb 1:5-6

 

[Witness]

13 minutes ago, Witness said:

Do you see this?  Do you really believe that God is going to tell us to give "obeisance" to Jesus Christ when Jesus is brought back into the world?  Or, does God expect us to give him worship?  Heb 1:5-6

 

In order to worship Jesus Christ, we pray to him. 

[Witness]

I know I’m very passionate about this, but if I return to what @xero started with…

"I ask him and talk to him on the basis of Jesus and his office as high priest and king, however if prayer is respectful speech to God, then what is respectful speech to Jesus? Am I not supposed to talk to him? All authority is given him in heaven and on earth by Jehovah, so recently I've been feeling that I'm treating Jesus like a simple messenger and go-between, which he certainly IS as a mediator, but not at all simple. But am I not allowed to talk to him? Is he not my Lord and Savior? "

…I can detect that the organization’s teachings about Christ and who he is, have little depth.  Xero perceives something is missing.  I hear JWs refer to the “ransom” more than they refer to Jesus Christ.  The “ruler of this world” will do everything possible to limit the perception of Jesus, and prevent one from approaching him in prayer; especially among those who are part of his Body. (Matt 24:24)  We have to remember that this is war, between “seeds”.  Gen 3:15

“For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. 

²¹ For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 

²² Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 

²³ that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.  John 5:20-23

The word, “honor” has this meaning:

τιμάω timáō, tim-ah'-o; from G5093; to prize, i.e. fix a valuation upon; by implication, to revere:—honour, value.

Definition of “revere” -
: to show devoted deferential honor to : regard as worthy of great honor

Synonyms: “adore, deify, glorify, reverence, venerate, worship” 

John 10:30 – “I and the Father are one”.

The same honor, is to be given to the Father and to his Son, the  "Everlasting Father" of the Kingdom's children. (Isa 9:6)  The Son glorifies the Father, and the Father glorifies the Son.   

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."  John 17:1-5