Conscience individual and collective

[xero]

14 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Mostly all, perhaps. To me it really is a matter of conscience. While my wife and I have been willing to die over the no-blood doctrine, we both agreed when our children were young that we would not be willing to impose our conscience(s) upon our young children before they were baptized. This still doesn't mean that we would simply allow them to take blood or blood-based medical treatments, but it would be a medical decision depending on risks to their physical life. It turns out there are only few limited circumstances where one could say that blood is absolutely required to offer the optimal chance of saving a physical life. But, contrary to the beliefs of many Witnesses, those circumstances do exist. The principle, for my own conscience, is built from this:

(Matthew 12:10-12) . . .So they asked him, “Is it lawful to cure on the Sabbath?” so that they might accuse him. 11 He said to them: “If you have one sheep and that sheep falls into a pit on the Sabbath, is there a man among you who will not grab hold of it and lift it out? 12 How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! . . .

Fortunately, the issue has not come up for any of us.

Two things. (on the blood issue)

1. No one can speak to all JW's and what they might or might not do in any given situation. As a group, you CAN crunch the numbers.

2. The doctrine is biblical in the sense that it is derived from the bible, as are pretty much every attempt at concretizing a biblical principle by any individual. The question is nuanced w/regard to the application of the underlying principle.

Some have little to no capacity for nuance. (some may suggest that "nuance=loophole")

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

23 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I also agree with Srecko, that to some extent we will probably accept some decisions made by a "collective" conscience that will be seem artificial to us.

It isn't a 'collective conscience', it is dictatorship by your GB down through the ranks. 

That was made very clear in the misuse of the Romans scripture years ago. 

23 hours ago, JW Insider said:

And, of course, many of us have found the environment of the brotherhood of Witnesses to be perfectly suited to the needs of our conscience.

What this simply means is that JWs have found their comfort zone. They are happy because everyone in that 'zone' tells the same lies and is dishonest in the same ways. And they are all happy to serve the GB and the Org. It is similar to Catholics having their own comfort zone and all believeing their same lies.  It actually sends the conscience to sleep. That must surely have been proven by the amount of Child Sexual Abuse allowed to happen in the JW Org Earthwide. 

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

On 3/23/2021 at 9:17 AM, César Chávez said:

Sorry to say Srecko, You, John and JWI are wrong with this opinion. The Watchtower DOES NOT, nor will it EVER, brainwash people.

Thank you for this joke, it is  sooooo funny  

On 3/23/2021 at 9:17 AM, César Chávez said:

The problem here, ex-witnesses "demand" the Watchtower should be accountable for our own personal actions.

The problem here is that CC is presuming he knows the minds or 'Ex JWs'.  BUT, when direct orders come down from the GB through the ranks, then the GB / Watchtower ARE responsible for JWs actions that follow those orders. 

For instance when the GB states that "The Anointed will not want to meet together or if the Anointed meet together IT WILL BE WORKING AGAINST GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT"...   Now that is directly from the GB, therefore the GB are responsible for the actions of the Anointed on this issue. 

Those 8 men cannot be the GOVERNING BODY ( the body which governs) without being held accountable for their direct orders and instructions. 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

14 hours ago, César Chávez said:

(2 Corinthians 5:9, 10) . . .. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of the Christ, so that each one may be repaid according to the things he has practiced while in the body, whether good or bad.

Nice to see this scripture. it proves it was written for the Anointed.   while in the body obviously means in the human body before they become spirit beings. 

[xero]

6 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Thank you for this joke, it is  sooooo funny  

The problem here is that CC is presuming he knows the minds or 'Ex JWs'.  BUT, when direct orders come down from the GB through the ranks, then the GB / Watchtower ARE responsible for JWs actions that follow those orders.

For instance when the GB states that "The Anointed will not want to meet together or if the Anointed meet together IT WILL BE WORKING AGAINST GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT"...   Now that is directly from the GB, therefore the GB are responsible for the actions of the Anointed on this issue. 

Those 8 men cannot be the GOVERNING BODY ( the body which governs) without being held accountable for their direct orders and instructions. 

"4Jah Creates more spiritual food"

I think you too make presumptions w/regard to the minds and motivations of "Ex-JW's". You probably barely know your own mind.

"He that is trusting in his heart is stupid" - Proverbs 28:26

 

[xero]

Thinking more on this.

The attached pdf has this passage:

The pastor steps up to the pulpit of his evangelical church to instruct the people on practical Christian living, especially in terms of how to function under God’s delegated authorities. The pastor begins by declaring that children are to obey their parents in the Lord, for this is right (Eph. 6:1). In response, the congregation bellows an enthusiastic “Amen!” The pastor proceeds to exhort everyone to submit themselves to the governing authorities of the state (Rom. 13:1). In response, the people shout a hearty “Amen!” The pastor moves on to charge wives to submit to their husbands as to the Lord (Eph. 5:22). In response, the church gives a more subdued and uncomfortable “Amen.” Finally, the pastor admonishes the church members to obey the church leaders and submit to their authority (Hebrews 13:17). In response, the congregation glowers at the pastor with suspicious eyes and murmur to themselves, “Whatever happened to liberty of conscience?”

One can see the same response today in various KH's.

Just how do opposers imagine they're obedient to Hebrews 13:17 as separate from any organization? (If they still imagine themselves to be Christian)

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

14 hours ago, xero said:

JWI - I'm trying to find a way to formulate, by way of illustration or otherwise (the shorter the explanation the better), the dividing line between conscience and scriptural responsibility and actively being told by authority that some non-obvious thing is true and that one must believe the non-obvious thing is true and teach someone else in the same manner that this non-obvious thing is true.

You can and do have people in every organization JW/and non JW orgs who cross over the line either deifying conscience or deifying organization. Both of these are wrong and both of these may be done by individuals who are individually or collectively being "faithful" as they see what it means to be faithful.

This is fantastic, because this has some deep meaning.  

So, a person has their own conscience.....    But who decides on a person's 'scriptural responsibility' ?  Does that person use their own conscience to decide on their own scriptural responsibility ? OR, does a person rely on 'an Organisation' to tell the person what that person's scriptural responsibility is ? 

Next we have this idea of : actively being told by authority that some non-obvious thing is true and that one must believe the non-obvious thing is true...  The GB are such an 'authority' and they give themselves this authority by stating that they are the 'Faithful and Discreet Slave'.  The GB have thereby given themselves power and authority. So JWs are indeed actively being told by authority that some non-obvious thing is true and that one must believe the non-obvious thing is true.  

So in this manner JWs are told what to believe. Now this gets even more serious when JWs are told to teach someone else in the same manner that this non-obvious thing is true. This is how lies snowball. Tell a lie often enough and people will begin to believe it. 

The next paragraph is equally interesting.  But unfortunately Xero doesn't make it clear between the words organisation and AN Organisation. 

Xero is stating here that it is wrong to defy organisation even if a person is being faithful.  However Xero does not say faithful to whom or to what. I presume xero means faithful to God.  In this case I'd say, be faithful to God and defy organisation if the need arises.

Things that are organised are not always right, and Organisations are not always right. but as Xero has mentioned, a person's conscience may not always be right.

However, for my part i will work WITH my conscience. If i am to be judged I want to be judged on working with my conscience. I would not want to be judged for blindly obeying a Human authority as mentioned above. 

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

14 hours ago, xero said:

She'll say "If they didn't mean what they wrote, then why did they write what they wrote?". Quite bleedingly literal. It seems that w/people like this, the black and white is stark. When the organization says something these autistic types have like Rain-Man a memory on everything they've said "exactly what they said"

This comment is VERY SAD. Xero is using this persuasive idea that people that think in this way must have mental health problems. It is in fact just what the GB use to trick JWs. Remembering that the GB state that they ARE the F&DS, and that the GB state that GOD AND CHRIST TRUST THEM, then Xero wonders why the writings of that GB should be questioned. Those 8 men give themselves so much praise and give themselves  bold titles, but then they write lies and false predictions. So this lady and everyone else is right to say exactly those words

"If they didn't mean what they wrote, then why did they write what they wrote?" 

[Srecko Sostar]

18 hours ago, César Chávez said:

God's given ability for humans to know from good and bad was entwined in our DNA since the crimes of the first pair.

In the definition of what conscience is, it is said that one of the abilities / purposes of conscience is to distinguish good from bad.

If I understood your statement well, you claim that conscience arose AFTER the sin of the first humans. A new act of God’s creativity after He created everything and start to REST from creation, is the creation of conscience in DNA?? Is it this what you talking about?

Then we have more dilemmas about First Pair, Sin, Tree of Knowledge etc. Before sin, according to your statement, Adam and Eve had no conscious. Then this would means that they could not discern what is good and what is evil. To eat or not to eat The Fruit.

We all agree that people need to have conscience ( as some comments gave picture, that would be - individual, collective or/and individual-collective conscience to be able doing right things). By your  presented scenario, there is no existence of individual conscience and there is not collective conscience too, in Eden. What Adam and Eve had? 

Furthermore, the biblical text in Genesis also says that God said after they ate the Fruit from the Tree: "Now people have become like us and know what is good and what is evil". 

This suggest, also, how this couple had any (no) knowledge about good and evil (or about anything, about many thing else too??)

Conclusion? Adam and Eve had no Conscience ... and had no Knowledge about good and bad?

Can somebody explain why would God put them (or You) on test without Conscience? Why would God put them (or You) on test without Knowledge?

According to Genesis, we could conclude that Adam and Eve done wrong decision because they were "without knowledge." And because they refuse to obey direct command from God.

By this, it could mean how people don't need "Knowledge" and don't need "Conscience". But only to obey ban about the Tree.

After all, the Bible elsewhere speaks to just that aspect and says that Israel "perished because they were without knowledge."
The text of the Bible does not speak (openly or not at all) about the competition between conscience and knowledge. To act properly we need both tools: conscience and knowledge. And then other things; faith, love, courage etc. In example of old Israel lack of knowledge caused their ruin.

What sort of "knowledge" trains individual and collective conscience in WTJWorg?? 

What sort of "obedience" substitutes conscience and knowledge in WTJWorg??

 

 

 

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

12 hours ago, xero said:

"4Jah Creates more spiritual food"

I think you too make presumptions w/regard to the minds and motivations of "Ex-JW's". You probably barely know your own mind.

"He that is trusting in his heart is stupid" - Proverbs 28:26

 

Does an Elder really react this way   I think not. Just another AKA  for someone.  But i can tell you are badly hurt. You seem to write a lot about other people's mental state, I'll leave it there................ 

I forgive all your insults and laugh at them too.

[xero]

7 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Does an Elder really react this way   I think not. Just another AKA  for someone.  But i can tell you are badly hurt. You seem to write a lot about other people's mental state, I'll leave it there................ 

I forgive all your insults and laugh at them too.

Sure they do. For that matter so do CO's and DO's.

BTW The same is true for the prophets.

"²⁷  About noon E·liʹjah began to mock them and say: “Call out at the top of your voice! After all, he is a god!+ Perhaps he is deep in thought or he has gone to relieve himself.* Or maybe he is asleep and someone needs to wake him up!”  - 1 Ki. 18:27 (paraphrasing the trash talking prophet ..."Baal IS a god after all. Maybe he had to go take a dump. Since he is a god that's got to be a massive dump.")

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

12 hours ago, xero said:

Just how do opposers imagine they're obedient to Hebrews 13:17 as separate from any organization? (If they still imagine themselves to be Christian)

BUT, you have just mentioned that all so called Christian religions use this same idea.  So are you telling Catholics to to be obedient to the Pope ? How would you JWs get new recruits if everyone was obedient to the ones taking the lead in their religions ?  No one would listen to you because they would be being obedient to their vicar or priest etc.. .  

However, firstly the scriptures are for the Anointed ones, secondly the scriptures do not apply to false religions. Otherwise that scripture would take away a person's own conscience.