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Conscience individual and collective


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53 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Nice to see this scripture. it proves it was written for the Anointed. 

Since Christ Body is also the Church of Christ, then it benefits NOT only the anointed but the other sheep as well. This is something you, and witness still don't understand. I have tried to use simple and difficult illustrations to explain this, without success.

So, far be it from me to try to convince you the proper way of applying scripture. That's your conscience call.

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I liked your KH building experience. We've all had that experience when we would have made different decisions if we were in charge, and then we are glad we weren't. But I can't seem to fit your musing on conscience into what I thought was the most common use of the term "conscience" in the Bible. Of course, it might be right anyway, depending on what you mean by consequences. For example: Let's say that you would love the experience of eating roast beef a couple times a week, but depe

Long ago I was on a committee to explore building a new Kingdom Hall. A brother as you describe, also on the committee, carried on and on about how we would put a baby changing table in the men’s room! Why should it be just sisters who have to change the infant? Times were changing! Equal work for all! And it was not just work, it was part of the privilege of rearing children—spread the joys and the drudgery evenly! It shouldn’t only be the sisters who have to.....” He discussed brands, the fold

I know where you’re coming from, but I agree with Anna. I think it is not good to describe the brotherhood this way. I think it because the scriptures lay no emphasis at all on this “deficiency,” if it is one. Instead, they goes out of their way to show favor to such ones. They pay no attention to the head. They only pay attention to the heart.  “Wisdom cries aloud from the street,” the Bible says. “Hogwash,” comes the answer from the learned ones. “It cries aloud from the quadrangles. Only

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18 hours ago, César Chávez said:

God's given ability for humans to know from good and bad was entwined in our DNA since the crimes of the first pair.

In the definition of what conscience is, it is said that one of the abilities / purposes of conscience is to distinguish good from bad.

If I understood your statement well, you claim that conscience arose AFTER the sin of the first humans. A new act of God’s creativity after He created everything and start to REST from creation, is the creation of conscience in DNA?? Is it this what you talking about?

Then we have more dilemmas about First Pair, Sin, Tree of Knowledge etc. Before sin, according to your statement, Adam and Eve had no conscious. Then this would means that they could not discern what is good and what is evil. To eat or not to eat The Fruit.

We all agree that people need to have conscience ( as some comments gave picture, that would be - individual, collective or/and individual-collective conscience to be able doing right things). By your  presented scenario, there is no existence of individual conscience and there is not collective conscience too, in Eden. What Adam and Eve had? 

Furthermore, the biblical text in Genesis also says that God said after they ate the Fruit from the Tree: "Now people have become like us and know what is good and what is evil". 

This suggest, also, how this couple had any (no) knowledge about good and evil (or about anything, about many thing else too??)

Conclusion? Adam and Eve had no Conscience ... and had no Knowledge about good and bad?

Can somebody explain why would God put them (or You) on test without Conscience? Why would God put them (or You) on test without Knowledge?

According to Genesis, we could conclude that Adam and Eve done wrong decision because they were "without knowledge." And because they refuse to obey direct command from God.

By this, it could mean how people don't need "Knowledge" and don't need "Conscience". But only to obey ban about the Tree.

After all, the Bible elsewhere speaks to just that aspect and says that Israel "perished because they were without knowledge."
The text of the Bible does not speak (openly or not at all) about the competition between conscience and knowledge. To act properly we need both tools: conscience and knowledge. And then other things; faith, love, courage etc. In example of old Israel lack of knowledge caused their ruin.

What sort of "knowledge" trains individual and collective conscience in WTJWorg?? 

What sort of "obedience" substitutes conscience and knowledge in WTJWorg??

 

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, xero said:

    Hello guest!

"4Jah Creates more spiritual food"

I think you too make presumptions w/regard to the minds and motivations of "Ex-JW's". You probably barely know your own mind.

"He that is trusting in his heart is stupid" - Proverbs 28:26

 

Does an Elder really react this way :)  I think not. Just another AKA  for someone.  But i can tell you are badly hurt. You seem to write a lot about other people's mental state, I'll leave it there................ 

I forgive all your insults and laugh at them too.

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3 hours ago, xero said:

So this scriptural account, and there are others which are less proximate in my mind which might be used could be used as an example of Jehovah's earthly organization imagining one thing to be the thing which is important, but Jehovah had something else in mind. (It could also be an inducement to be less dogmatic)

Ask your conscience. Did Jesus STOP preaching just because things were getting ugly for him. How about, when Jesus was hearing chatter of his impending death. Did the apostles run away after they witnessed Jesus Death? 

What would be your conscious level of being less dogmatic? Whatever you decide, that's what you accept as your personal morals and standards. Now, ask yourself, who do you serve?

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7 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Does an Elder really react this way :)  I think not. Just another AKA  for someone.  But i can tell you are badly hurt. You seem to write a lot about other people's mental state, I'll leave it there................ 

I forgive all your insults and laugh at them too.

Sure they do. For that matter so do CO's and DO's.

BTW The same is true for the prophets.

"

    Hello guest!
 About noon E·liʹjah began to mock them and say: “Call out at the top of your voice! After all, he is a god!
    Hello guest!
Perhaps he is deep in thought or he has gone to relieve himself.
    Hello guest!
Or maybe he is asleep and someone needs to wake him up!”  - 1 Ki. 18:27 (paraphrasing the trash talking prophet ..."Baal IS a god after all. Maybe he had to go take a dump. Since he is a god that's got to be a massive dump.")

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12 hours ago, xero said:

Just how do opposers imagine they're obedient to Hebrews 13:17 as separate from any organization? (If they still imagine themselves to be Christian)

BUT, you have just mentioned that all so called Christian religions use this same idea.  So are you telling Catholics to to be obedient to the Pope ? How would you JWs get new recruits if everyone was obedient to the ones taking the lead in their religions ?  No one would listen to you because they would be being obedient to their vicar or priest etc.. . :) 

However, firstly the scriptures are for the Anointed ones, secondly the scriptures do not apply to false religions. Otherwise that scripture would take away a person's own conscience. 

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3 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

BUT, you have just mentioned that all so called Christian religions use this same idea.  So are you telling Catholics to to be obedient to the Pope ? How would you JWs get new recruits if everyone was obedient to the ones taking the lead in their religions ?  No one would listen to you because they would be being obedient to their vicar or priest etc.. . :) 

However, firstly the scriptures are for the Anointed ones, secondly the scriptures do not apply to false religions. Otherwise that scripture would take away a person's own conscience. 

"However, firstly the scriptures are for the Anointed ones, secondly the scriptures do not apply to false religions. Otherwise that scripture would take away a person's own conscience. "

Prove this by scripture. Otherwise you should really stop while you're ahead, you keep digging that hole you're in you'll never get out.

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8 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

If I understood your statement well, you claim that conscience arose AFTER the sin of the first humans. A new act of God’s creativity after He created everything and start to REST from creation, is the creation of conscience in DNA?? Is it this what you talking about?

No! When do you believe, the first pair needed to assume a conscience in the garden of Eden? They hadn't eaten from the forbidden tree. 

Now, what part of the first pair DNA do you think God added "immoral standards" to his "prefect" creation? 

15 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Then we have more dilemmas about First Pair, Sin, Tree of Knowledge etc. Before sin, according to your statement, Adam and Eve had no conscious. Then this would means that they could not discern what is good and what is evil. To eat or not to eat The Fruit.

How well are you willing to learn scripture the right way? If the first pair found it necessary to think about eating or not eating from the forbidden tree, it was made clear by God himself. 

Once again, you are confusing, between conscience and morals and standards. They developed a conscience after Satan exposed it to them, That's why it's on our DNA.

What does that mean, a part of that DNA was dormant until it was awoken by evil?

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1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

It isn't a 'collective conscience', it is dictatorship by your GB down through the ranks. 

That was made very clear in the misuse of the Romans scripture years ago. 

What this simply means is that JWs have found their comfort zone. They are happy because everyone in that 'zone' tells the same lies and is dishonest in the same ways. And they are all happy to serve the GB and the Org. It is similar to Catholics having their own comfort zone and all believeing their same lies.  It actually sends the conscience to sleep. That must surely have been proven by the amount of Child Sexual Abuse allowed to happen in the JW Org Earthwide. 

 

You are able to come up with some logical reasoning, but then you let go of reason and start assuming things that aren't true. JW do not worship the org. because all know that worship belongs to God only.

You pull out the Roman scripture (subjection to superior authorities) as proof that the org. is bad. You expect the annointed never to draw the wrong conclusion. You expect them to be either perfect, and sinless or led by holy spirit to the point where they do not have their own thoughts but are more like robots. 

Then you pull out the CSA as proof that the org. is bad, again insinuating that every JW should be perfect and without sin. 

Well I hate to break it to you again but that's not what the Bible says about Christians. Time and time again examples of faithful men and women who made mistakes were pointed out to you, but you ignore it...and then of course there are some that were bad and had to be thrown out.

 

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12 hours ago, Anna said:

You are able to come up with some logical reasoning, but then you let go of reason and start assuming things that aren't true. JW do not worship the org. because all know that worship belongs to God only.

JWs might know that worship belongs to God but, 1. the GB call themselves the F&DS and 2. the GB say that God and Christ trust the GB. Hence JWs serve the GB.  Xero made some important comment about an 'authority' demanding that it's followers believed even things not understood. Then Xero extended that by saying that those people that were forced to believe, had to tell those things not understood, to other people.  Basically, doing the ministry or cart work. 

Here in the UK we have (or did pre-lockdown) car boot sales, where people sell their own belongings. At these events JWs have a table displaying literature. NO bibles, just literature. Those JWs are not offering the word of God, they are offering the words of Men. In that way those JWs are worshipping the GB and the Org, and so are people on the door to door work that give out magazines or tracks, giving men's words not God's word. 

12 hours ago, Anna said:

You pull out the Roman scripture (subjection to superior authorities) as proof that the org. is bad. You expect the annointed never to draw the wrong conclusion. You expect them to be either perfect, and sinless or led by holy spirit to the point where they do not have their own thoughts but are more like robots. 

The misuse of the Romans scripture WAS bad. Russell had it right in earlier days. So that 'new light' was obviously not guided by Holy Spirit.  The Anointed, Quote " You expect them to be either perfect, " So you argue with God if you wish.

Matthew 5 : 48

You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Quote or led by holy spirit ...  John 16 :7

 Nevertheless, I am telling you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. For if I do not go away, the helper will not come to you; but if I do go, I will send him to you.

John 14 : 16

And I will ask the Father and he will give you another helper to be with you forever, 

    Hello guest!
 the spirit of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it neither sees it nor knows it.

But the ones you consider to be the Anointed, your GB, do not have this 'spirit of the truth'. 

12 hours ago, Anna said:

Then you pull out the CSA as proof that the org. is bad, again insinuating that every JW should be perfect and without sin. 

The CSA in such a large quantity and in so many countries in the JW Org, does prove that wickedness has developed and grown within the JW Org.  And the GB withholding the USA 25 + year database of Pedophile accusations proves wickedness. Add to this that the Charity Commission here in the UK are still saying that the UK branch of the JW org is still deliberately blocking progress in the CSA investigation.

12 hours ago, Anna said:

Well I hate to break it to you again but that's not what the Bible says about Christians. Time and time again examples of faithful men and women who made mistakes were pointed out to you, but you ignore it...

Once agin if you wish to argue with God that is your chioce. And the big difference is between making mistakes and, deliberately being dishonest. 

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