Conscience individual and collective

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Unfortunately, everyone here, being misled by sloppy bible teaching is. To bad, you people can't accept it.

What do you mean he was misled by sloppy bible teaching? He belonged to a congregation and he deliberately left it. Was there no one there who knew accurate bible teaching? Is there anyone on the planet who does besides you?

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

For example, a simple solution to Johns argument would have been, two words, "indirectly" and "directly".

You who live to argue, this has nothing to do with argument. It is almost entirely a matter of heart.

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Seriously, if you people go door to door, no wonder people have a hard time believing.

It’s not our fault, you donkey. We try to work with you door to door because we know that you understand the things that we do not. But you are never available. You are always here arguing, not only with those who hate the faith, but with those who love it.

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Seriously, if you people go door to door, no wonder people have a hard time believing.

Lately, I'm mostly just a stamp licker. It's all so efficient, I can't get in enough hours to meet my goals. (Unless my printer jams. Then, I'm back on track again.*)

*I've been accused of pushing the envelope.

[xero]

More musing....

Conscience is like an internal scale too but it's one that weighs things in accordance with its own experiences.

I remember one class I took by Dr. Albrecht, a neurology professor whose specialization was in the eye. It was a basic class, but one thing that stood out  that I remember from the class was the rods vs cones of the human visual system. He said our eyes have scales which can weigh elephants and bees wings. The cones weigh elephants and the rods weigh bees wings. It's a simple illustration. There are people like my grandfather who were color blind, lacking any cones whatsoever. It turns out this aided him as a quality control engineer as his eyes were very sensitive to shades, more so than a normal person.

A person's conscience might be like these scales in some way. Some people missing nuance and seeing little difference between one thing and another. "All religions are the same" they might say (and believe). Another person's conscience might see a myriad of differences and perhaps so many differences (that like a character in a Jorge Louis Borges story https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funes_the_Memorious I remember who couldn't recognize a dog as the same dog because the angle of attack/reflection of light off the dog and its movement made it perpetually different) he simply can't even recognize a religion. Why? Because everything seems different.

When examining a dog, when does what we call a "dog" stop being a dog?

We have a fingerprint of experiences in our minds which make for "dog".

We do this for all things. So when something troubles our conscience we can do a few things.

We can re-check and remeasure. "Did I remember to turn the stove off?"

Maybe the stove is off. Maybe it was on. But we're glad we checked.

Suppose we go back and the stove is off, but we're still unsettled. Something about the stove is off we think. So perhaps we hire a technician to examine the stove. Is it leaking gas? Is it not heating properly? Does something seem awry? Does anyone else think something might be wrong?

Maybe we go look at someone else's stove. They seem satisfied with their stove, but not you. You sense something awry with their stove as well. Maybe you argue with them about the stove. Maybe they say "I'm happy w/my stove and I'm sticking with it!". You say "Fine. But don't say I didn't warn you." They respond "Warn me about what? I know my stove isn't the best in the world, but it works for me. It cooks my food and that's all I expect out of it. What do you think a stove is supposed to do?"

You move on. Perhaps you start studying "Stoves of the World" and "The History of Stoves" and "The Chronology of Stoves in Ancient Babylon"

You start to think of yourself as an expert in the history of stoves, their genesis and usage throughout time.

But you yourself have decided that no stove is good enough for you.

You're going to eat that turkey raw, because no stove is perfect.

...then you die of food poisoning....

*THE END*

(Again....me musing aloud)

[Pudgy]

........ Sometimes you don’t actually die, you’re just “stove in”.

[Srecko Sostar]

4 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Then you undermine the experience. Take for instance, traditional weddings. If a witness has family members that are not witnesses, what kind of conflict could manifest? How about funerals, sweet 16, etc. 

*** w82 7/15 p. 25 par. 15 Benefiting From Your God-given Conscience ***
15 Was this ‘a matter of conscience’ for private decision? No. Even if an engaged couple’s consciences would permit something excessive or outrageous, the collective conscience of the elders could not be ignored. While not wanting to impose their personal tastes, they have at heart the peace, harmony and spirituality of the whole congregation. And they should be conscientiously aiding persons to ‘know how to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is a pillar and support of the truth.’—1 Timothy 3:15; 1 Corinthians 10:31.
 

 

Please, so the difference is obvious. These are just two things:

1) Ideological / religious differences

and/or

2) prejudices.

It has nothing to do with the fundamental function of conscience.

[Srecko Sostar]

4 hours ago, César Chávez said:

I strive always to maintain a clear conscience before God and man.

So I see that this is about Paul’s conviction/striving that he is doing the right things, that are right in the eyes of God and in the eyes of people.

Whether everything Paul did was indeed right in the eyes of God is up to God to judge.

Whether everything was right in the eyes of the people is also for discussion. First of all, we need to know which people Paul thought they had no objection to their conscience about Paul’s conscience and his life.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

On 3/25/2021 at 9:00 AM, Anna said:

Hmmmm.... I wonder if you would have known ANY of this had you not been contacted by Jehovah's Witnesses....

I'll give you a clue.  I am alive, so my mother must have fed me some reasonable food when I was young. However my mother was a whore and she was the cause of my father's death, so I hated her. 

Now apply that thinking to JW Org. Within a life time a person (or an Org) may do a couple of good things, but it does not excuse all the wickedness.

[Srecko Sostar]

On 3/25/2021 at 4:23 PM, César Chávez said:

This is the most "obtuse" forum of reasoning. I'm embarrassed, JWI agrees with this argument. When were the "gentiles" INCLUDED in Christian life? Did Paul by any chance, suggest TWO different Christian standards in the lives of Jews and Gentile?

Don't confuse, TRADITION with morals and standards, and if JWI is feeding you garbage through private message, research.

So he arrived at Derʹbe and also at Lysʹtra.+ And a disciple named Timothy+ was there, the son of a believing Jewish woman but of a Greek father, 2  and he was well-reported-on by the brothers in Lysʹtra and I·coʹni·um. 3  Paul expressed the desire for Timothy to accompany him, and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews in those places,+ for they all knew that his father was a Greek. - Acts 16

What happened there? Circumcision because of a question of conscience? Whose conscience? Timothy's conscience or Paul's? Because of morals? Because of standards? Or did it all happen because of TRADITION and Jewish morals and standards written and required by Jewish Law? 

Is it Paul’s action a consequence (the pressure) of “collective consciousness” (or conscience, to interpret xero), so he too fell under the influence of the "collective conscience" and went against own conscience, even although he preached that circumcision is “nothing”? Was it Paul’s moment of weakness, was he ignoring one’s own conscience, or fearing of social condemnation, etc?

What/which "collective conscience" did he considered and respected? From First Christian congregation  or from Old Jewish congregation?

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

22 hours ago, xero said:

You ought to google once in a while.

https://www.thoughtco.com/collective-consciousness-definition-3026118

 

But what you are doing here is, putting your trust in 'men'.  It is so funny how JWs will deny somethings 'men' say, but happily follow other things that 'men' say when it serves their purpose.  

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

22 hours ago, xero said:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/collective-conscience-educational-context-society-saumya-sharma-sam-/

Collective conscious or collective conscience (French: conscience collective) is the set of shared beliefs, ideas and moral attitudes which operate as a unifying force within society. The term was introduced by the French Émile Durkheim in his Division of Labour in Society in 1893.

And you xero lick it up as if it's strawberry jam. 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

21 hours ago, César Chávez said:

the collective conscience of the elders

Read this as, dictatorship of the Elders. 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

19 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You are always here arguing, not only with those who hate the faith, but with those who love it.

This is a strange expression. Who hate THE FAITH.   Faith is a personal strong belief in something or someone unseen but yet 'known'.  

Are you replacing the Watchtowers words 'the Truth' with your words 'The Faith' ?  

It would appear that 'the faith' of JWs is in the things seen, not unseen. Those things seen being the GB and the massive amount of real estate that the W/t own.