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  1. 3 points
    So at family worship my PIMI husband was talking about baptism with my son. He asked him when he would like to get baptized and my son said “Dad I’m not in any rush. Jesus was 29 when he got baptized”. I did not coach him or teach him this. I was just so thrilled that he is thinking more for himself and using logic. Also, what the hell was Jesus doing from age 10-30 before his ministry anyways? But dont think about Jesus getting himself and his family financially secured for 10 years before spending 3 preaching... that is thinking that is not tolerated by the borg!
  2. 3 points
    Everybody knows the book exists. Pioneer service school also has a book not for general distribution. Everybody knows it exists. They either know of it specifically or they know of it in the ’Well.....duh!’ sense that they know that any training of any class of any subject in any discipline just may feature a curriculum and textbook not for general distribution. It is not a conspiracy. The world is not flat. GM did not invent a 100 mile per gallon carburetor that they have sat upon for umpteen years.
  3. 3 points
    They are that these are not your words. Who wrote this?
  4. 3 points
    The signs read: "love does not shun". True, the liove of this world with its "practices" of fornication, LGBT does not shun. But we do not tolerate unrepentant "pracitisers" of this kind of love they refer to. This is my answer and I am a typical rank and file JW who cannot think for myself according to all the slurs given me on this forum. I predict this will become a huge issue as all children now at school are taught to accept these practices whereas the bible says we should not " condone" them Romans 1. So the future is bleak regarding morality. When good is bad and bad is good. We will all in future be persecuted as hateful because of this. The same people who say jehovah was harsh when he killed wayward Jews who participated in false worship and burnt their own children. There are none as blind as those who do not want to see.
  5. 3 points
    John Butler was banned because he went too far in calling for illegal harm to be done against some public people. Not because of his stance on the child abuse matter. Once you cross the law you are definitely banned. Billy the Kid aka Allen Smith..... I have tolerated on many occasions.. until soon thereafter he is so rude and abusive toward other members I have to ban him. He needs to find another sandbox to go play in. Not this one. I'm not saying that others don't at times get abusive..... but my tolerance with Allen Smith is very thin... he "rubs me the wrong way" every time. -----------
  6. 3 points
    I'm sure it's been pointed out under the many prior 1975 topics in this forum. The fact that the prediction was for the 1970's, not 1975 is easily seen from the articles called, for example, "What Will the 1970's Bring?" and the Circuit Assembly badges we wore that asked: "Who Will Conquer the World in the 1970's?" The reason for 1970's instead of 1975 was because of articles and talks that made the following points: *** Watchtower 1968 August 15 p. 499 par. 30 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? *** 30 Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then? Possibly, but we wait to see how closely the seventh thousand-year period of man’s existence coincides with the sabbathlike thousand-year reign of Christ. . . . It does not necessarily mean that 1975 marks the end of the first 6,000 years of Jehovah’s seventh creative “day.” Why not? Because after his creation Adam lived some time during the “sixth day,” which unknown amount of time would need to be subtracted from Adam’s 930 years, to determine when the sixth seven-thousand-year period or “day” ended, and how long Adam lived into the “seventh day.” And yet the end of that sixth creative “day” could end within the same Gregorian calendar year of Adam’s creation. It may involve only a difference of weeks or months, not years. If that difference between the end of six thousand years since Adam, and the end of the "sixth day" could not be a matter of years, then this means that it must be less than two years from the autumn of 1975. After the autumn of 1977 it would have become a matter of years, not just months. Then, especially after the 1970's, the focus of the prediction moved to a time before the year 2000: The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah p. 216 "Shortly, within our twentieth century, the "battle in the day of Jehovah" will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom." Watchtower 1984 Mar 1 pp.18-19 "Some of that "generation" could survive until the end of the century. But there are many indications that "the end" is much closer than that!" "Let Your Kingdom Come" (1981) p.102 "But now in our 20th century, we have come to the time for harvest "a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels"!" Watchtower 1989 Jan 1 p.12 "He was laying a foundation for a work that would be completed in our 20th century."
  7. 3 points
    @AlanF Haven't seen you around these parts for a while. I see the name @scholar JW pop up in a "Who's Online" box now and it always reminds me of the fact that he seemed to love a 587 debate, wherever he could find one. I always appreciated your knowledge on that topic (although, you also scare me with your evolution/atheism arguments). But back to the point. I did not know that you knew this much about the Lloyd Barry and Ted Jaracz situation. I was going to start avoiding using so many names but, yes, of course you are talking about the same people. In case you are even more aware of some of these details I would like to run another situation by you, especially since it sounds like you might be aware of details that would clarify or adjust what I think I know. I had just decided earlier today NOT to share this part of the story because of how unbelievable and contrived it might sound. But I'm going to go ahead and put it out here, and I'll take a cue from you and use names this time: And by the way I don't know if you know C.A. (still alive) but he is the WTS source for most of this particular story, either directly or indirectly. He is currently living in a residence just off the Bethel campus, and is not doing that well health-wise. I prefer that his name is not spelled out here, because I'm sure he would have preferred that these issues were not widely publicized in a forum such as this. I embarrassed myself in front of him on my first day at Bethel over 40 years ago, by telling him about a problem with the pay phones in the Bethel lobby. He listened and then shrugged as if he could not have cared less about it. I don't know why it still embarrasses me so much, but it doesn't matter, we got along very well from that point until even long after I left Bethel. He himself got involved in some even more embarrassing situations at Bethel, which I think you know about. He was in the Service Department under Miller and Jaracz, and shortly after I left Bethel, he was "promoted" to the Writing Department. But this story is primarily from back in 91 to 92. After the 91 article, brothers and sisters thought it was good to start telling their stories of sexual abuse to the elders, to the Society, and to professional therapists. The situation was very unnerving for the Society and for local elders too, especially when the accused were those they knew and wanted to defend in some way. There was a big new controversy over repressed memories and whether all these accusations could actually be false. Elders in California, and a couple other states were actually starting classes in "repressed memories" and trying to learn what they could about psychiatry. Victims were coming out of the woodwork. So Brother Jaracz who tried to keep it "anonymous" from the rest of the Service Department, talked to several of the brothers who were known to be on the rise and who had requested or were being considered for Bethel positions in the Service Department. These were Brother Pierce, West, Lett and Beagle, possibly among others. Pierce and Beagle were sent to California to handle circuits that TJ had been in, and West and Lett were assigned to Wisconsin, at least, there might have been other areas and brothers involved too. To give you an idea of who these people were, Beagle, Pierce and Lett were called in to work as C.O.s and D.O.s around the NYC area. (West may have been too, but I don't know what happened to him.) This is a commonly known sign that they are being watched and in close communication with the Service Department, and Bethelites "in the know" start guessing at this point that they will soon be called in to Bethel for "top jobs" CA, in fact, predicted when Beagle would come in (he was immediately assigned to the Service Department) and CA guessed in advance that Pierce would go straight to the Governing Body. I think he may have had some inside information. The two most intimidating were Beagle (six foot six) and Pierce (short but a bulldog with a smile). The intimidation campaign actually produced letters complaining about both of these persons, which was another reason for moving them to NYC. Pierce (from the Salem OR area) had a range of complaints about his "weirdness." An old accusation from 1991 actually ended up revealing clearly that it was TJ behind the anonymous campaign, as he sent a letter on his own letterhead (his codes) to a sister (a victim's mother) whose daughter was sexually abused by more than one elder since she was young. The mother died, and the daughter is in possession of letters between her mother and the WTS, including at least one from TJ. And based on the content of the letters, she recalled that it was West and Lett who met with her to warn her and her mother that they would be disfellowshipped if they exposed the story. This part of the story, if true, would provide further confirmation that Lett and West were involved in the same intimidation. I already knew something of Pierce and Beagle because of relatives in California. Brother Beagle, by the way, (young) died suddenly of a heart problem shortly after he began his assignment in the Service Dept. Brother Lett, of course, is now on the Governing Body and made himself famous to this victim (and exJWs, and probably other victims) by implying that apostate lies were behind the spread of rumors about the WTS covering up child sexual abuse. [edited to remove some of the state locations and too many specifics about the victim and victim's family. If you copied a previous version, please reload the page to get the edited version.]
  8. 3 points
    Thank you, i have read this already, but it isn't very recent.. My main point was to find out if the Governing Body / Writing Dept' has very recently written anything new regarding suicide. In the last 6 month maybe ? My personal feelings are that God, through Jesus Christ, will resurrect all those that they find worthy. And that 'worthiness' cannot be judged by any human. Thanks again.
  9. 2 points
    You seem to be indicating that I don’t think there are “true”, authentic anointed in the organization. Have I ever said that, or have I repeatedly drawn attention to their existence among JWs? Unless….you are referring only to the GB as “true” anointed and disregard all other anointed, which wouldn’t surprise me. I do believe the GB were anointed, but they have lost any Holy Spirit they had once received. THEY now direct their false priesthood to carry out “covert extremism” to shun those who will not accept their tainted version of “truth”. As my comment brought out, it is they who should be shunned. It is very sad that you joke about God’s word and the man who spoke them.
  10. 2 points
    @Arauna So you are saying God's standards on child baptism have changed? Because if OUR standards as humans have obviously changed then that means that we weren't or aren't following God's will at some point. Correct? One could always make the argument like Watchtower always has that we should follow how things were done back in the first century Christian congregation. = Jesus set the example = Men should be baptized at the age of Jesus.
  11. 2 points
    Just sayin' interesting isn't it?
  12. 2 points
    JW Insider

    Dmitri Shostakovich - Waltz No. 2

    This guy over here did at https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=197629 To me, they sound a bit corny in English, but that's always fixable by translating to another language.
  13. 2 points
    Thanks for those references. I obviously must have read some of them, especially the ones from the 80's and I am aware that our mothers would say we would never go to school, that Armageddon would be here by then. This was nothing new to me since we were saying this almost since the founding of the JWS. What I was questioning was the specific date 2000. That Armageddon would come in that year, in the same way as was insinuated for 1975. "Within the 20th Century" is open, and just because 15 year old Samuel "visualizes something happening in 2000" doesn't mean we had to think it will happen exactly then, lol. Samuel is 48 today, probably with kids, maybe a grandad, and probably still a JW. I know plenty of people who visualized something happening, and nothing happened, and they are still visualizing it. But, everyone in their right mind yearns for good things, and Jesus told his followers to "keep on the watch" and Peter "await and keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah". As for the society setting specific dates for the end, 1925 sticks in my mind, for which Rutherford apologized, and 1975, which was not official anyway. And 1914 of course....
  14. 2 points
    Quote @TrueTomHarley " No. You are preoccupied with this, and @4Jah2me lives and breathes it. But anyone else takes into account that there is no sizable organization on earth where CSA is not an issue, and no one that is not being sued—and in most cases, it is the leaders who are the abusers, something very rare with JWs, whose leaders are just accused of not reporting. " Lets break this down. Firstly Mr Harley (just like Aurana) likes to compare everything to the 'world'. We all well know that the 'world' belongs to Satan the devil. So in effect Mr Harley likes to compare the GB and it's JW Org to Satan the devil. Wow, great comparison. Secondly. Mr Harley has no idea whatsoever, just how many JW 'leaders' are involved in CSA. The proving point will come WHEN the Paedophile Database of 20 years + is 'opened up'. Whilst the GB and it's lawyers keep that 'can of worms' closed, then there is no way of knowing. I am of the opinion that Almighty God wants His name (or the name JWs use) made clean. Therefore all efforts by the GB and their lawyers will eventually fail. That 'can of worms' will be opened up, for all the earth to see. Then and only then, can Mr Harley truly decide, with full facts, exactly what percentage of JW Leaders are guilty of Child Sexual Abuse. It would also be interesting to know exactly whom Mr Harley is speaking of when he uses the term 'leaders' when applied to the JW org. For me it is from the GB right down to Ministerial Servants. But I hasten to add that I do not know all the ranks and titles and I think titles change on a yearly basis. I think @Srecko Sostar has already covered these above points but i needed to add my concerns. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Separate comment Quote @James Thomas Rook Jr. What if in many cases of the Bible, particularly in Genesis .... what we have translated as year or years ... should have been translated as EPOCH(S)? What excuse did the Society / JW Org come up with to suddenly wipe out the 7,000 year creative day theory ? And if NO ONE IN INSPIRED OF HOLY SPIRIT , then anything could be true or false. To the point that the 'All Scripture is inspired of God.. ' scripture, may only refer to the Hebrew writings, as it was written before the Greek writings were completed and certainly before the Greek writings were gathered together to form one 'book'. Hence we truly need a TRUE Anointed Class to be able to receive God's Holy Spirit to give us true 'Food at the proper time'
  15. 2 points
    I think that scripture about "food at the proper time" might actually mean "cartoons at the proper time." This is today's DILBERT cartoon. Quite often, I have found, the DILBERT cartoon of the day exactly fits what is being posted here. .... and whatever happened to Caleb and Sophia?
  16. 2 points
    The focus on only supporting future wars to be led by Christ Jesus directly, has promoted the idea that we really are expected to be pacifists. Also the idea that we focus ONLY on spiritual warfare leads to the same conclusion. As late as 2003, a convention talk mentioned this: *** w03 1/15 p. 26 “Zealous Kingdom Proclaimers” Joyfully Assemble *** The second speaker in this symposium addressed questions relating to neutrality. Early Christians were not pacifists, but they recognized that their prime allegiance was to God. Likewise today, Jehovah’s Witnesses hold firmly to the principle: “You are no part of the world.” (John 15:19) Since tests of our neutrality can arise quickly, families ought to make time to review the Bible’s guidelines on this subject. Generally, however, the impression is given that we are very much like pacifists but don't want the label because it's often associated with protestors and radicals. However, the farther back one searches in the publications, the more we see that the discussion could include acceptable self-defense. *** w64 8/15 p. 484 Those Who Pursue Peace *** Actually, Jehovah’s witnesses are not in “rebellion” against the activities of any government, but they do maintain uncompromising neutrality as to the world’s political and military affairs, as they follow the Scriptural injunction to ‘seek peace and pursue it.’ They are not pacifists. They do not oppose any government’s program of military conscription or demonstrate against it, but they submit themselves to God’s arrangement of things. *** w55 8/1 p. 478 Questions From Readers *** However, this refusal to pay back insult for insult does not mean Christians are to be pacifists or that they must never resort to self-defense.
  17. 2 points
    The Bible says that everything that God initially created was "good". Everything that Satan created was bad. The world then became a paradox of good and bad. The question arose whether the arbiter of what was good, was justified to decide what was bad. Obviously, since he was the supreme judge and arbiter of all things. On top of that, was he justified in destroying or removing what was bad. The answer has always been yes, because his love, together with justice dictates that this must be done. Creation; predators, eating other creatures is not bad, since the predator depends on the primary consumer for survival. My great grandmother kept rabbits for food. She loved them all and took good care of them, they all had names too. When it came time for Sunday dinner, she lovingly took one out of the pen and bopped it over the head. Benjamin had no idea what had hit him as he blacked out within a split second, was dead within a minute, and cooking in the pot within an hour. His buddies never even noticed he had gone missing. Was that an unloving thing my great grandma did? I suppose it depends on who you ask. But the one to decide whether this is unloving or not would be the creator. Humans have differing views, but the rightful arbiter is God.
  18. 2 points
    Of course that all people in one group contributing how that environment will look like. Article made point, with given example about individual who are in position of authority, how people with authority are very important in this and how develop of many things is based on platform that people in authority creating (or has been creating). They are some sort of pillars and members will look on them and how they respond on various stimuli inside and from outside congregation. I think how this is message in article how main responsibility, what sort of environment took place, is on elders. Congregation is not understand as private place for games, but serious place for service .... and sometimes for cowboy dancing or musical show too. But that is rare. What is we talking about is, how much you can go with your different idea, view, opinion and when they will and how stop you in your open voice. Your different idea about and rejecting "overlapping generation", even without your active promoting that on others, can be viewed as your weak faith, law spirituality because of "worldly pressure" you going through, negative thoughts, the appearance of doubt ...etc. In their's "arsenal", elders can find reason to put increased attention to you, or even to silently warn others about your weakness. Of course you know your elders better than me, but they are "shepherds" and have to keep you inside "flock". :))
  19. 2 points
    You will find it's not "people" in general who judge too quickly, but it is ex-JWs. People in general do understand the complexities. Even the ARC understands the complexities, and so do prosecuting lawyers. But of course neither are in the business to understand, but to hopefully help remedy the situation and to get justice (well in the case of the lawyers; to get lots of $$$$ too, lets be honest).
  20. 2 points
    We are encouraged by GB to think about things (meditate/ analyze) . Our maturity in spiritual things depend on ourselves - the organization cannot teach us this.
  21. 2 points
    JW Insider said: Of course. One such was in the April 1, 1986 Watchtower, which considered the question, "Why have Jehovah’s Witnesses disfellowshipped (excommunicated) for apostasy some who still profess belief in God, the Bible, and Jesus Christ?" The article never clearly defines "apostasy", but weasels around by saying that a true Christian must accept "the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses." But this is another instance of the Society talking out of both sides of its mouth, because the Insight book, under "Apostasy", clearly states that apostasy "constitutes a rebellion against God and a rejection of his Word of truth." Combining the two concepts results in something like this: "Since the Governing Body speaks for God, rejecting its teachings is rebellion against God." And we know that this idea has been clearly enunciated or implied hundreds of times in JW literature. Of course, in the most general sense, "apostasy" means "leaving a previous loyalty", but that is far too broad a definition because it would mean that a loyal employee who quits his job is an apostate, which is an absurd use of the word. So the Society's many rantings against "apostates" essentially equate disagreement with its teachings with rebellion against God. How convenient! Much more accurate words to describe dissent from Watchtower teaching are "heterodoxy" and "heresy". But heresy has dire associations, such as "Inquisition" and so forth, so the Society will not use it. Catholic scholar Jeffrey Burton Russell, writing in Dissent and Order in the Middle Ages: The Search for Legitimate Authority (Twayne Publishers, 1992), gave an excellent account of these and related words and how they have been used in the Catholic world (pp. 2-3): << Ideas acceptable to the bishops and to approved theologians were defined as orthodox (correct teaching) and catholic (universally held)... Dissenting ideas were considered heterodox (divergent). Heterodox ideas, when defined and condemned by the bishops, were deemed heretical. A heretic was a dissenter formally condemned by an accepted ecclesiastical authority... The term heretic is distinguished from infidel, one who is not Christian at all; apostate, one who abandons Christianity; and schismatic, one who has true doctrine but does not submit to ecclesiastical order. >> Most of these concepts are found in the April 1, 1986 Watchtower. Yes, as I said above. That's right, but no administrators in their right minds would call such an expelled person an apostate. And of course, expelling for clearly stated organizational reasons has nothing to do with equating those reasons with rebellion against God. It is this unchristian attitude, among other things, that defines Jehovah's Witnesses as a destructive cult.
  22. 2 points
    I was in conversation with an elder last week (or maybe two weeks ago) and I don't quite know how we got onto the topic but we started talking about suicide. I was a bit surprised when he said "But don't commit suicide or you will not get a resurrection". I was wondering where exactly this information comes from. Having recovered from the shock, I have since emailed this elder and got no response. I have looked on JW Org and read a couple of older articles on there, but they seemed to say that it is or was not their place to judge, which i agree with. So, is there 'new light' on the subject of suicide ? If so where does this new light come from ? And what scriptures back up this 'new light' ? I will willingly read any recent articles that are passed on to me, as this latest information, if it is true, i find disturbing. I know of many people that have committed suicide, both inside and outside of the Jehovah's Witnesses Organisation.
  23. 2 points
    It sure does my heart good. Yes, and I am taking diligent notes. I may be a washed-out has-been, but I will rise again!
  24. 2 points
    Arauna said: Same one who appointed your Governing Body. Only to you. Not to me, because I have definite knowledge of the events I've described. On the other hand you have nothing to dispute any of it. Which is what the GB did to convict Leo Greenlees of being a pedophilic, homosexual child molester. Your worship of the GB is so strong that even if Jesus himself told you that they are not what they claim, you wouldn't believe him. You're one those I had in mind when I mentioned self-righteous JW apologists. Wow! You actually learned something! Except that the Old Testament relates that many miraculous events proved that Elijah and others were really appointed by God to do his bidding. What does the GB offer? Their word. And how valuable is that? The history of Watchtower leaders from before it even existed proves that not a single prediction they made came true, and that their false teachings make a pretty big pile of trash. So are you claiming you don't worship the Governing Body? Don't let your fellows know, or you'll be disfellowshipped for apostasy.
  25. 2 points
    The self-righteous JW apologists on this forum are pitiful. They're more than willing to condemn individuals in "the world" for wicked conduct, but just as willing to excuse similar conduct among themselves, and especially by their leaders the Governing Body. Mostly they simply deny that these charlatans did anything wrong at all. Much like Donald Trump's Republican defenders are doing in the current House impeachment hearings. Let's watch as some JW apologists try to excuse their leaders for the conduct described below. JW Insider mentioned a circuit servant in Australia who was removed and reassigned in the early 1950s. This was Theodore Jaracz, who later became a GB member (according to Raymond Franz he was appointed by Nathan Knorr as a slap in the face to the other GB members who had ousted Knorr from power; he was known for being unreasonably harsh). Jaracz eventually worked his way into the de facto position of 'supreme GB member' by force of personality, essentially replacing Fred Franz and becoming head of the Service Department. As such, and because of his temperament, he was feared and hated by many lower-order Bethelites. There is very good evidence that Knorr had removed Jaracz as a circuit servant in Australia for some sort of sexual misconduct with a minor(s), which is a smoking gun for his attempts to hide all mention of child sexual abuse from the JW rank and file, both in print and in dealings that appointed officials such as Circuit and District Overseers had with elders and the rank and file. If Jaracz was a child molestor 40 years earlier, it was a good bet that he retained a tendency to excuse them in the 1990s. Jaracz was at odds with GB member Lloyd Barry, who by all accounts was a decent man. As for other GB members, by far the worst I know of was Leo Greenlees, who was removed from the GB in late 1984 for sexually molesting a 10-year-old boy. The parents reported the molestation to the Society, and eventually the GB met as a judicial committee to deal with the accusation. They found Greenlees guilty, but judged him repentant, and assigned him to be a special pioneer, which entitled him to the usual SP stipend. This was obviously self-serving, since to expose Greenlees' misconduct to the public would have been fatal to the JW organization. After all, a homosexual pedophile does not develop those proclivities at age 72, but has been practicing such things since he was a young man, and Jehovah God would not anoint a homosexual pedophile as an elder, much less as a GB member. Furthermore, the Ray Franz incident was fresh in the GB's minds, and Franz had recently published "Crisis of Concience", and likely the GB wanted to take no chances of a repeat with Leo Greenlees. So they avoided disfellowshipping him and sent him off with a stipend. This situation with Leo Greenlees is positive proof that "Jehovah God" has nothing to do with the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses. Another GB member wicked by JW standards was Ewart Chitty, who in the early 1980s was removed from the GB and reassigned to a lower level position in the UK Bethel. Chitty was, in modern parlance, very "flaming" (i.e., exhibited strongly stereotyped homosexual behavior). He seemed to prefer young men as roomates. Apparently there were accusations of inappropriate behavior by several young Bethelites, which caused his demise. Once again we see behavior by a GB member entirely inconsistent with the Society's doctrine that elders and GB members are "appointed by holy spirit". There is even evidence that Nathan Knorr was a closet homosexual. He did not marry until he was 48 years old, and his wife is reported to have told close friends that their marriage was never consummated. Knorr was obsessed with telling young men, especially new Bethelites, to avoid masturbation, which invokes clear shades of "methinks thou dost protest too much". And of course, his failure to remove Theodore Jaracz in the early 1950s as a Watchtower official but reassigning him to a lower position in the WTS organization strongly indicates that Knorr was soft on child sexual abuse. Many Watchtower officials have traditionally been soft on child molestation. In the mid-1940s my own mother, in her mid-teens, was hit on by at least one prominent WTS official much her senior.
  26. 2 points
    @Arauna - "Jehovah judges perfectly because he understands perfectly. BUT you are twisting the facts: It is PEOPLE here on the forum who have appointed themselves as judges and definitely are not perfect judges. People here on this forum try to make JWs into monsters.... when the real monsters who are exploiting children are using the worldly system to do this. The worldly legal system is becoming less and less accountable and favoring the rich and powerful (and certain favoured minorities) to do as they please." Yes, the world is full of atrocities and horrors, but the world does not offer eternal life – the organization does. Shouldn’t one’s focus be on how that will occur through an organization that is marked by some of the same atrocities found in the world? @Srecko Sostar - “I can assume that all such individuals among the elders, who are in the minority, experience very serious, conflicting turmoil. For those elders who are very sensitive by nature, all that they may face can be too much. For such elders, who begin to perceive the paradox that arises between truth, justice, Jesus' teaching, on the one hand, and the corporate governance of that power, the power that human influences and positions (hierarchies) have of things, can end up very bad for themselves. Even in suicide.” @4Jah2me - "So get real, wake up, and stop looking for excuses in the outside Devil's world. Remember scripture, Don't tell your brother he has a straw in his eye, when you have a rafter in yours. = JW Org, Don't say how wicked the outside world is when the inside of JW Org is just as wicked." How will the Kingdom arrive, through the choices the world makes, or the choices each anointed one makes? John 17:17; Rev 14;5 The anointed leaders of the org. easily judge their brothers and sisters in Christ. The GB are not apostles, but uninspired men who “assume” they are allowed to make that decision. They have given the elders the swift ability to mark them and all who question their teachings, as spiritually “dead” for not conforming to their own bad choices, or for turning directly to Christ who can offer one eternal life. Micah 3:5; John 16:2; Rev 13:15 This is a more serious accusation than one losing their physical life at the hands of a corrupt worldly system. “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.” John 6:63 The words the GB speak, are not full of life. Their historical record of bad choices proves it. Col 2:8 God doesn't erase their mistakes made while leading the flock, unless they repent and turn around. Which they haven't. Jer 23:32
  27. 2 points
    It’s about time! If you were more astute, I’d have 1000 from you by now.
  28. 2 points
    What do think of a country where Doctors can be forced to do abortions? I can't accuse the country, Doctors can quit or take their business elsewhere. Criminals of war were just following orders because they thought sh:t rolled up hill, but you see, it doesn't.
  29. 1 point
    JW Insider


    On the overall subject of evolution, I don't pretend to know the answers. I think that a lot of the evidence on both sides has been misunderstood, but every time I try to look into it myself, it seems that the "wrong" evidence is winning. My mother believes that Satan, who keeps transforming himself into an angel of light, was given powers/permission to hide fossils in whatever places he wished to cause confusion and division. (Perhaps a hint of this in Satan's argument over Moses' body in Jude 9.) I don't like this theory at all. I've mostly heard it from young earth creationists, and was actually surprised to hear it from my mother. It brings up so many questions about the timing of such "miracles" that Satan was allowed to perform. Were these fossils moved at the time of the Garden of Eden? Is Satan still allowed to perform these miracles today? I've heard my father (in fact I've been with him at museums) back in the years when he tried to explain the feathers on certain non-flying dinosaurs as feathery-looking ferns and/or other leaves and plants. I've now seen enough of these fossils up close so that I realize he is just grasping at straws. I have always assumed that there is a bigger puzzle here and that none of us are ready to deal with all the facts and evidence yet. Although my own son (the math/physicist) tells me that the sum total of the evidence does currently fit the evolution theory, with some minor exceptions not yet understood, but which will probably still fit among the current theories, with minor adjustments. To my son's credit, he does not believe the current theories are necessarily final, and they don't prove there is no God. But here is the most surprising thing about my son's belief: The current theories are the ones that HONEST scientists are forced to accept based on rules of handling scientific evidence. It's not the same as scholars having a vested interest in keeping things going because of power and influence. In fact, if a scientist could come up with a new theory that fits the facts and evidence, he would become the new Darwin. It's probably the "holy grail" of scientists to be able to topple a current theory with a better explanation for all the evidence The problem is not the scholars, or the theory, it's that this theory is the RIGHT one from the perspective of science. It fits the old evidence and the new evidence, so far. The best the Society can do is to look for inconsistencies and disagreements among certain scientists, and make the most of these issues to show us that there is still some room for disagreement over certain bits of evidence. I'm very disappointed when the WTS writers stoop to misquoting the evolutionary scientists, however, or quote a religious view from a different kind of scientist who clearly never dealt with evolutionary theory. I'd like to think that the WTS writers were only being careless when looking for ways to discredit evolutionary scientists, but the clever way in which words have been selected for quotes, with other words left out, tells me that the writers have sometimes understood the original intent and stooped to dishonesty. I'm not sure why a WTS writer would ever think this was a reasonable solution for us. But it tells me that the WTS is not ready to explain the overall evidence yet. This reminds me of a problem I've had with uranium. What GOOD is it? Radioactive substances were clearly on the earth when Jehovah declared each successive day "good." And after the sixth day he could look back and see that everything he had made was good. Was it good because humans might find that some radioactive elements could be made to produce heat like coals? Obviously not! Were all radioactive elements and substances kept out of man's reach so that he would never come across them? Perhaps it was so that man would someday harness these powers and create a safe source of energy? This implies that Jehovah wanted mankind to develop technologically, and as indicated by the Tower of Babel, perhaps controlled the pace of that progress until today or some time in the near future. But if we don't really need it until the new system, why not make it in the new system, in much the same way that he provided quail or manna. And why would we need it in the new system, anyway? I can understand how Jehovah could have made all animals subject to man such as in a Garden of Eden. Even animals that are violent with one another can still be trained to be peaceful in their interaction with humans. But perhaps this is the same argument that AlanF is making about thousands of years of animals being violent and unloving with one another. I have less problem with that, than with all the things that would seem to be poison to us, and which we would only learn about through dangerous, even lethal, experimentation. Does EVERY poison and danger have a good side? When did certain plants and elements become poisonous to us? Only after Adam's sin?
  30. 1 point
    What a beautiful combination .... piano and cello together.... Love how this couple brings them together.... cello playing the melody and some of the early percussion.
  31. 1 point
    I never read a direct prediction that the end would come in 2000. Any case, we are supposed to be ready ALL the time because it will come as thief in the night. The other comparison is to a pregnant woman..... she knows the event is eminent but does not know the hour. Did the bible not warn that people will scoff and say: where is it ? ....and when they do not expect it the events will suddenly follow each other .....rapidly one will see prophecies being fulfilled. I have no doubt in my mind that it is getting closer every day that passes. We are seeing the storm clouds rolling in on several sides. My brother told me that they had temperatures if 53.2 Celsius in south Africa..... and the hight of the summer will only be in February - in 3 months. Farmers have not planted. Governments are keeping quiet about crop failures, unprecedented ocean destruction due to warm sea currents and many other problems. The dollar and stable stockmarket is the main concern. Keep everyone in the dark until the biosphere collapses. Growing hate between the " iron and clay" elements in most western governments - irreconcileable to where it is almost cold civil war. Maneuvering behind the scenes of the UN..... 176 nations have signed up on the 3 agreements - a good indication of where we are in the stream of time. Surveillance and control of powerful private global companies, super artificial intelligence, CRISPR software on sale for anyone who wants to use it, CHina and Russia have more and more ports and other mineral resources under their control and the growth of atheism, immorality (LGBTQ etc) and other devastating philosophies...... as well as a rise in spiritistic religions...... the main one in the UN - theosophy- are escalating. One thing for sure - the world is not growing better as some are saying - but worse as each day passes. A Christian genocide is ongoing in middle east and north Africa. No one cares about this because the UN human rights organization has been taken over by Muslim countries who vote each other in. Countries with the worst human rights sitting in top positions. Well.... I can go on..... and on.... Laugh on and on..... suddenly the mockery will turn into gnashing of teeth in anger....
  32. 1 point
    I wish this was not true. It is very discouraging when the GB is chasing away more people than I could gather in a thousand lifetimes.
  33. 1 point
    James Thomas Rook Jr. said: See where failing to read posts gets you? You have no clue what you're talking about. If you read my posts -- as I just suggested and you've refused -- you'll find that I certainly use "reason and logic and common sense", but along with that I use "disparaging personal insults" whenever I find a poster lying, misrepresenting, disparaging, ignoring, or otherwise deliberately trying to throw the discussion off the track. What's wrong with that? Isn't that what Jesus did with the lying Pharisees? "Vipers . . ." Or maybe you don't think Jesus is a good model. Again, do you expect me to be a better Christian than the hypocritical clowns? I always try to destroy the arguments, but when it's called for, the liars, too. Often there's no difference with deliberate liars. Remember, I've been dealing with these types for nearly 30 years, and from experience I know that taking a hard line with liars is the most effective. Sometimes telling them to their face that they're a liar eventually gets them to think, and quit lying.
  34. 1 point
    Don't you see that scripture contradicts this ordinance made by men? If the anointed were to "gather" as the elder body and helpers "gather", what do you think might happen? Another point of view that would threaten the GB's teachings? Wouldn't you say the helpers and GB gather "exclusively?" And, if they can do it, why not God's anointed ones? The point is the GB are afraid their leadership will be challenged by a united body of anointed ones. So, they are not to BOND TOGETHER, as the 1/2016 WT stated. The GB have separated from their Head, Christ, "puffed up" in their "fleshy minds" that they must have total control over the anointed. Col 2:18,19 No anointed one is to wield authority over another. 1 Cor 12 expresses that clearly. You may just want to read it. There is only one Master that the anointed are to answer to, Jesus Christ.
  35. 1 point
    I like the My dog eats Jehovah's Witnesses sign more.
  36. 1 point
    WOW! If Stephen Hawkings had not been a media superstar about what he did with his disabilities, he would have been known as a third class physicist. Reading an article about his theory, and all string theory will forever be theory, because there is no way to ever prove it by observation ... nor will there EVER be. I personally believe in Multiverses, because it solves the problem of having 12 times more gravity than the observable Universe has.mass. Gravity bleeds from one Universe to another, and nothing else does., and depending on who you ask, there are 11 of them Quantum mathematics is the only "microscope" we have, but there are good detectives, and there are bad detectives. Stephen Hawking's book "A Brief History of Time" is infantile in its perception, as an example. Beware of conclusions reached from reading articles in magazines. Anybody's !
  37. 1 point
    Uh oh. You are reacting (and I thank you) to my Dawkins post on the wrong thread. Be prepared for an onslaught from @AlanF about how STUPID you are! He is not the same—JTR is an absolute saint by comparison—but I used to occasionally include off-color words in my posts just to see him, who could launch the nastiest and crudest of tirades, get all bent out of shape that I has said a naughty word.
  38. 1 point
    Loved your contribution above. The propaganda regarding the "religion of peace" hides its extreme and barbaric violence. True, JWs are the true religion of peace for refusing any political division in our ranks (not taking sides) or going to war to fight any of this system's battles. It is encouraging to be able to identify this nation on earth. I studied the "religion of peace" ...... most people in UK call it by this name now because one can get 2 years in prison for islamaphobia. One can mock a Christian, burn the bible, call jesus an adulterer and make funny pictures of him but do NOT hint at anything against the "religion of peace". Oh- I am comparing the injustice of the world in its bias treatment of JWs again in OCD way...... that will trigger Mr. JAH2......
  39. 1 point
    Lol maybe we should ask to explain the generation doctrine and 1914 as well... 😁😉
  40. 1 point
    Sure Aruna, whatever U say, U r so smart, I have no clue at all but U do. Still find amazing ur clueless responses 🤣🤣🤣
  41. 1 point
    Since this accusation was never proven, do you have supporting evidence that gives us concrete evidence? I have the feeling this evidence could possibly be in the orgs. files that certain lawyers are trying to get their hands on.
  42. 1 point
    Jehovah judges perfectly because he understands perfectly. BUT you are twisting the facts: It is PEOPLE here on the forum who have appointed themselves as judges and definitely are not perfect judges. They judge the past according to the modern day secular laws that are now in place and according to current society habits. I grew up in the 1950s when these things were a taboo to talk about in society. AFTER the 1960s, with the sexual revolution, they started to talk about this subject in the secular press. When I worked for newspapers as a reporter in 1980s many of the first laws were in place in first world countries and court procedures were slowly refined until 2003. The inquiry that was done in Australia into more than 2000 organizations was done to close further legal gaps in the system.......... BUT these laws are not always enforced in many countries where there are laws. In UK rape gangs have been operating for years with a blind eye by law enforcement. Child services, both in USA and UK were exposed to be part of child sex rings and reporters and policemen who try to investigate it, are found dead. This is why I often mention the abuses of high society (the rich and powerful) and other levels of society who are known to marry 9 year old girls against their will - these people get different treatment than others. .... and JWs are judged harshly because they were not vigilant enough and tried to stop it from 1950s by keeping records. JWs are now retroactively tried in court with sensationalist press, when boy scouts etc just closed down and no court accountability given..... so it creates a false impression that JWs condone this. Other "guilty" members of society (some are teenage boys tried as adults) get many years in prison are branded for life and forced to live in villages away from society for the rest of their lives. But exposed child trafficking rings etc rape rings - nothing done. This is not Jehovahs justice...... and in the end ..... it will be Jehovah and Jesus who will judge every wicked thing done in secret whether the individual pretended to serve him or not. In the meantime, millions of children's lives are messed up...... and jehovah will judge those with mercy and love. If anyone here on this forum thinks for a moment that children are currently protected - they are very naive to this morally rotten world. Child services in many cases are now private companies and are in it for money. Sex trafficking of children is more lucrative than drug trafficking...... and much more prevalent than we can even imagine. I disagree with the assumption that we can understand the mind of these children rapists...... they are so Satanistic.... we cannot imagine the lengths these people will go to and how far beyond a conscience they are..... and they are amongst us ..... and sometimes they pretend to be our moral leaders in society. They are judges, political leaders, military, FBI, MI5, etc etc....where they have more power and resources to cover up their activities ....and the making of money. Internet porn has exploited children and made them more vulnerable...... The new UN curriculum (forced upon all schools in the West) now sexualizes children at a tender age and is preparing the way for LGBTQ.....P. We are living in last days where any form of morality is becoming something of the past...... Sexual exploitation of children once was a spoken taboo - soon to be openly practiced by anyone who wishes to do so. Chidren are being married off legally in many countries as we speak. In Germany a judge threw out a case where a 10 year old was married off. This now has set a precedent: police will no longer arrest perpetrators who exploit 10 year olds because this is now regarded as marriageable age. Muslim laws are eroding the old western laws. We are going back to the time before jehovah gave laws to the Israelites. Like the Canaanites we will see openly child exploitation and even child murder is returning. In Africa- the practice of using child body parts in witchcraft medicine is back in full scale. Recently I saw a mother crying. She found her shepard boy still half alive with half his brain removed, his sexual organs etc removed. If this shocks you..... I hope it did. This is the reality of the world we are living in now. Satan is rampant and people with no morals are doing what they like. There is a semblance of law and order but underneath it all morality is falling apart. People here on this forum try to make JWs into monsters.... when the real monsters who are exploiting children are using the worldly system to do this. The worldly legal system is becoming less and less accountable and favoring the rich and powerful (and certain favoured minorities) to do as they please. People here do not understand why I talk about the worldly legal system and its double standards..... Well look at the headline above...... JW opposers are gloating because we are being used as a target by this very worldly system which protects other groups. Yes - we will be judged by the world and Jehovah. The one, often serves injustice - the other is just and really exists..... which one's verdicts will stand forever?
  43. 1 point
    You are copying Arauna. You are doubling backwards to compare the GB and it's Org to the world which belongs to the Devil. You should be comparing the GB and the Org to God's standards. Back in the times of Israel the surrounding nations were offering their children in the fire to Molech. (This has been mentioned by people on here before.) Then it seems the Israelites also started offering their children in the fire to Molech. How did God feel about that ? Did God say, 'Oh well the Israelites are not burning as many children as the other nations so it doesn't matter ' No I think not. God judged His people on His standards. Quote from w84 10/1 pp. 14-19 Remain “Without Spot From the World” “The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world.”—JAMES 1:27. 2 “The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this,” wrote the disciple James, “to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world.” Another rendition is: “Pure, unspoilt religion, in the eyes of God our Father is this: coming to the help of orphans and widows when they need it, and keeping oneself uncontaminated by the world.”—James 1:27, The Jerusalem Bible. I quote you "Since the GB stay away from world influence, I don’t see where they think the same as the world." The GB deliberately tell lies, and they use dishonest lawyers in courts. They jump ahead of any spiritual guidance from God or Christ and make stupid statements such as the 'overlapping generations'. the two witness rule concerning child sexual abuse, a rule concerning accusing adults of different sexes of committing fornication if they happen to be in the same house overnight, funnily enough it doesn't apply to adults of the same sex, bit behind the times there.. Telling the anointed not to think about contacting each other around the earth (when we know the anointed are the Body of Christ)... And don't even think about mentioning some of the stupid videos they make... And now a court appearance it seems. Well they do seem to like being in front of the camera. As for you commenting and being blunt. Do it. As long as you are not abusive and not too insulting to people ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These comments were auto merged Did i ever get a reply as to what will actually happen in these court cases ? Are the GB members liable to get fined ? Is there a possibility of a prison sentence for each one ? Looking back when the GB were playing games between the CCJW and WT Soc, basically sending letters to them selves, and the courts were not too happy about the wasted time etc. Fines imposed but then scrapped. So i would think the GB are not in favour with any of the courts. But things drag out so long so probs no result until next summer.
  44. 1 point
  45. 1 point
    Hence I feel the scriptures were / are written for the Anointed, not for the earthly class. I feel that only the Anointed should fully understand scripture as they are 'one' with Christ. The rest of us are just the other sheep. I like the scripture about 'Ten men clinging to the skirt of a Jew' The 'Jew' being the Anointed class, the ones clinging being the earthly class.
  46. 1 point
    Water as symbol of God's Spirit. By this, what Jesus told, this "inspirational water" has The Source in Jesus (and God). Well, it would be normal, and not mental issue, if somebody come with claim how he/she is "inspired". :))
  47. 1 point
    This is an important statement. In actuality many persons are on the "apostate spectrum." Some religions, just like gangs, or the mafia, don't allow one to just drift away. You have to be attacked and in effect, "neutralized." With religion, it's usually fine to drift away if it highlights that the religion has moral standards that are hard to live up to. Then those who don't come back will sometimes even be seen as a kind of a badge of honor to the religion. (Not individuals, but in general.) But if there is any danger that the person will speak out against the teachings, practices or the basis of organization, then that person must be neutralized in some way so that few persons will listen to them. Scientologists are famous for going after persons in a threatening way, or through legal means, to keep people from speaking out against their teachings or practices. In the same way, a whistleblower must be fired (by any means necessary) so that they suddenly become no more than a "disgruntled former employee." The Scientologists took over the entire C.A.N. (a huge online Cult Awareness Network forum) after forcing it into bankruptcy, because it was a haven for Scientology apostates. But back to the benign end of the apostate spectrum. Apostasy, by original definition, is a "standing away from." When Revelation 16 says to "get out of her, my people," this is a command to become apostates from false ideologies. Therefore, at the benign end of the apostasy spectrum are those who realize that apostasy can be a good thing, by definition, in that all persons who convert to JWs from another religion, for example, are apostates from that other religion. Also, any who leave JWs because they can't live up to the moral standards or levels of activity expected, are "apostates" but JWs consider them generally harmless. Then there are those who leave because they no longer believe the teachings, but who don't say anything, and plan to keep very quiet about it, because they KNOW they might be seen as "malignant" apostate if they spoke up. Frederick Franz was infamous for trying to get persons declared apostate for even "thinking" that 1914 might be wrong, or some other teaching specific to Witnesses. But now, because of the phrase, "apostates do not drift away from the truth," those who "drift away" should not be seen as "apostates." Apostates, for purposes of the warnings in the talk, do not include those who drift away. The absurdity of this idea has often been a talking point I would use with Bible Studies. But I realized that Russell and Rutherford also believed that all Christians went to heaven, not only the 144,000 but even the great crowd of Revelation 7:14. The idea was that they would rule over the 20 billion people or more from "history" would be resurrected to the earth, including the faithful Hebrews of old, and of course the millions of persons then alive who would NOT be part of the great crowd, but who would never die because by 1925, the millennium's resurrection to earth would begin and living "worldly" people would stop getting sick. It was not clear that any Christians would remain with them on earth until the early 1930's.
  48. 1 point
  49. 1 point
    ON COMPETENT ADVICE: it is up to EVERY INDIVIDUAL Brother and Sister to review in their own mind how COMPETENT this advice was .... because it has not changed ... Taking sound, reality based advice will, barring chance and unforeseen circumstances, make your life better, happier, EASIER, and more fulfilling. Most of the REAL PROBLEMS I have had in my life have been caused by being poor, and constantly STRUGGLING to keep gainfully employed. Gainfully employed in THIS day and age is not the same as in the time of John the Baptist, where you could dress in rags, live in a hole in the ground, and eat locusts (YUM!), and die of exhaustion, deprivation, starvation ( No, I'm FASTING! ...uh... yeah... uh... that's it .. uh "fasting!") .and disease, and a LONG life for the average genetically disposed person was around age 34 and you were full of infection of every sort, and your teeth had rotted out of you head. You walked everywhere, and died on the side of the road from exposure. It is up to EVERY INDIVIDUAL Brother and Sister to review in their own mind how COMPETENT this advice was .... because it has not changed. The RESULTS of taking INCOMPETENT ADVICE are completely indistinguishable from being chained to deliberate, premeditated evil. The Three Elders who came and counseled Job for three days did not just sit in the dirt and stare at him for 72 hours ... they were yapping their heads off ... but after three days ... nothing they said was worth recording. .
  50. 1 point

    Leo K. Greenlees

    "But I never heard any facts for sure about the molestation charges, although it was a well-known rumor." This brings to mind an interchange you and I had last year regarding information that may come out in mid 2016. It seemed from your response that you were leaning toward the idea of some potential homosexual encounter. The person I had In mind in my statement was in fact Leo Greenlees. I of course, knew about the "purported" charges of child molestation, but more recently a person who had been a well-known elder died, leaving an envelope stating it should not be opened until after his death. In the letter he made the accusation that Leo had molested him when he was younger. (Not the same individual who was involved in 1984 as far as I know since this elder was already an adult and elder by that year). In any event, to the extent that all of this is true, Leo would have already been a practicing child molester prior to his being appointed on the GB (although of course, the GB wouldn't have appointed him if they had known). Naturally, in the current climate of things, these types of things could prove "difficult" for current members of the GB who are aware of the details if governmental authorities get nosy. "The predisposition of someone should not disqualify them from responsibility as long as they can handle the responsibility without bringing reproach on Jehovah, on themselves, or others, and/or scandal upon the congregation. If a brother has already proven himself faithful and morally clean for many years, even if he struggles with sinful thoughts, then he is probably not so different from anyone else who was on the Governing Body at the time, even if these particular sins seem much more unexpected." I agree with you on that, since I know a number of brothers who have been disciplined for child molestation in various congregations. All of them have been faithful brothers for many years now without incident. But a potential problem with that type of weakness is the rate of recidivism that can accompany that type of behaviour. Naturally, there are some very thorny legal issues associated with appointing a person with such a history and whether he would even potentially offend again. My take on this is that even though information on certain websites (which we should avoid) may have some truth or even be completely true, my faith in and dedication to Jehovah is not dictated by the choices other humans make - regardless of what "position" they may have in "the organization." They too are imperfect, not miraculously inspired and make mistakes and have poor judgment at times. Kinda' like all the rest of us. But even with all of that, it's as close to pure worship and accomplishing our Christian mandate to preach the good news of the Kingdom world-wide as is possible to find today. You won't find brothers accomplishing that, regardless of how intellectual their reasoning may appear. Who is "walking the walk" as to the preaching work the Christian congregation was formed for? Im still not sure however, if there was more news we might expect regarding what you had suggested last year.

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