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  1. 4 points
    Yes. That works for many Witnesses. I personally don't think it's honest to simply redefine all types of changes as "refinements." But I'm more concerned with the fact that it can reflect a lack of humility that expects us to merely accept false doctrines as doctrines that simply needed refinement. The teaching might be a complete turnaround or rejection of a former teaching, or it might just be a minor adjustment, but even in the latter case it does not mean that the previous teaching is still true. For example, there was a change that happened in 1943 that changed the time for Christ's presence from 1874 to 1914. In the long run that is just a minor adjustment of 40 years. But it doesn't mean that 1874 is still a true doctrine. 536 BCE for the destruction of Babylon was changed to 539 BCE, even a smaller change, but this doesn't mean that 536 BCE is still a true teaching. Yes it's a type of "refinement," but a "refinement" that must still admit that the previous teaching is false. For example, the Watch Tower publications once taught, under Russell, that the "superior authorities" were not the secular authorities, but were God and Christ. Then, in Rutherford's time, the WT changed the view to just the opposite. Then, in Knorr's/Franz' time, the WT changed the view to the opposite again, so that it was right back to what Russell had taught. The Watchtower treated this as an adjustment, a refinement, and even claimed that there were advantages to having been wrong (without using the word "wrong" of course). This is clearly a matter of just not wanting to admit that a false doctrine was ever "false." Haughty people don't like admitting they are wrong, so this gives the impression of haughtiness. So was Naboth a prophetic type of Jesus or the anointed? Is it the case that this is true, and that the only reason we don't teach it that way is because it's too complicated to tell the whole truth? If it's still true, then someone should say that it's still true and we won't hold back from telling you "all the truth"? Of course, if it's actually a change in "understanding" then we are admitting that the former understanding is wrong, therefore it is no longer true. As you tacitly admitted, as Witnesses, we can never admit to having had a false doctrine. So we use different words. False doctrines must be re-worded as "refinements" "improvements" "clarifications" etc. We see this type of explanation in the very articles that explained the changes to "types" and "antitypes" which had no Biblical basis to be treated as prophecies. The article appeared not to admit that these had ever been wrong. Only that the: "faithful and discreet slave" was becoming steadily more discreet. discretion was leading to "greater caution" these older explanation were unduly difficult to grasp the details can be hard to remember and apply the former explanation tended to obscure more important moral lessons None of those points actually admits that the former explanations were wrong, only that we were now being more careful, more cautious, more discreet, more simple and clear. Watch very carefully how this was done: *** w15 3/15 pp. 9-10 pars. 10-11 “This Is the Way You Approved” *** As we might expect, over the years Jehovah has helped “the faithful and discreet slave” to become steadily more discreet. Discretion has led to greater caution when it comes to calling a Bible account a prophetic drama unless there is a clear Scriptural basis for doing so. Additionally, it has been found that some of the older explanations about types and antitypes are unduly difficult for many to grasp. The details of such teachings—who pictures whom and why—can be hard to keep straight, to remember, and to apply. Of even greater concern, though, is that the moral and practical lessons of the Bible accounts under examination may be obscured or lost in all the scrutiny of possible antitypical fulfillments. Thus, we find that our literature today focuses more on the simple, practical lessons about faith, endurance, godly devotion, and other vital qualities that we learn about from Bible accounts. 11 How, then, do we now understand the account about Naboth? In much clearer, simpler terms. That righteous man died, not because he was a prophetic type of Jesus or of the anointed, but because he was an integrity keeper. Notice how even the idea that we no longer understand it the same way is worded in such a way as to be very ambiguous about whether the previous understanding was actually wrong. This is one of dozens of such ambiguous wordings, and I can show you cases where this exact kind of wording apparently "fooled" the translator into creating inconsistent (less ambiguous) results in Simplified English, French, German and Greek. And I'm sure there are several other examples I don't even know about.
  2. 3 points
  3. 3 points
    Well you've got to be reasonable. The question is; is our employment closely and consistently tied with false religion. One off things don't count I'm sure. One thing is fixing a church HVAC, and another is specializing in polishing church steeples.
  4. 3 points
    I believe that the illustration of the Faithful and Discreet Slave applies to the Governing Body. But I also believe that it is presumptuous for anyone to limit the meaning of the Faithful and Discreet Slave to the Governing Body. In fact, making such a claim of BEING the Faithful Slave before Jesus returns to confirm who has actually been "the faithful slave" is presumptuous, and is therefore a sign of being indiscreet. It is the very definition of being "discreet in one's own eyes." (Isaiah 5:21) . . .Woe to those wise in their own eyes And discreet in their own sight! 1 Peter 5:3 was referenced by you and it says: (1 Peter 5:3) 3 not lording it over those who are God’s inheritance, . . . Referring to oneself as "governors" (i.e. a "Governing Body") is exactly what "lording it over" would be expected to look like. So it's not being faithful to this Bible verse, nor to the original illustration of the "faithful and unfaithful steward/slave" in Luke and Matthew. That same point is made in the NWT cross-referenced verse: (2 Corinthians 1:24) 24 Not that we are the masters [lords/governors] over your faith, but we are fellow workers for your joy, for it is by your faith that you are standing. When you mention not wanting to be seen like the Gentiles in Jesus time, you probably recall that this included the titles we might use to identify ourselves as the Gentiles and Jews of Jesus day liked to do: (Matthew 20:25-27) 25 But Jesus called them to him and said: “You know that the rulers of the nations lord it over them and the great men wield authority over them. 26 This must not be the way among you; but whoever wants to become great among you must be your minister, 27 and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave. (Luke 22:27) 27 For which one is greater, the one dining or the one serving? Is it not the one dining? . . . (Matthew 23:7-10) . . .. 8 But you, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your Teacher, and all of you are brothers. 9 Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. 10 Neither be called leaders, for your Leader is one, the Christ. The Governing Body members, through the publications and public conventions, continually point out that they are the ones taking the lead over the congregations, and that correct teaching only comes through the hands of a few, rather than just pointing to how well these teaching match the teachings of Jesus himself. We should consider whether this might actually be the very kind of "overreach" that Jesus warned about. I see nothing at all wrong with the idea of the committee(s) of elders who preside over matters for the collective congregations, just as there is nothing wrong with the committee(s) of elders who preside over matters that come up for local congregations. But it is our Christian duty to question the food served, especially to comment on any concerns with respect to how well it matches the teachings of Jesus, the congregations' true Leader and Teacher. As servants (slaves) the ones preparing such meals should expect and desire to be questioned about the ingredients of the meals they distribute, they should humbly seek out the input of others with respect to the content and quality of the meals prepared and distributed by such stewards. In reality, there is no parable of the "faithful and discreet slave." It's really a parable of the "faithful slave/steward vs. the unfaithful slave/steward," and it everyone's responsibility to act like the faithful one, and not the unfaithful one. All of us need to be faithful rather than unfaithful stewards. In fact the parables are MORE about what it means to be the UNFAITHFUL steward. In the parable of "Who really is the [true] neighbor?" this is only a little bit about the untrue neighbor, and MORE about who really is the "TRUE neighbor," using the example of the good Samaritan. But in this parable about "who really is the true steward?" it's about faithfulness, but it's even MORE about examples of UNFAITHFUL stewards, and various levels of unfaithfulness. That said, it's still true that overseers, including the Governing Body, take on a greater responsibility as stewards. And this also increases the responsibility to act even more faithfully, humbly and discreetly. A slave would never ask for obedience to themselves, only that we obey Christ's leadership. Therefore, as we see how the example of any overseer's faith works out, we obey the lead of those elders. (Hebrews 13:7) While it's true that we are all stewards, every overseer, especially, is God's steward. (Titus 1:7) . . .For as God’s steward, an overseer must be free from accusation, not self-willed, . . . There should be no stewards who set themselves up as a kind of human tribunal: (1 Corinthians 4:2, 3) . . .In this regard, what is expected of stewards is that they be found faithful. 3 Now to me it is of very little importance to be examined by you or by a human tribunal. . . . Paul wrote to congregations in Corinth where certain persons were trying to be too influential in "governing" the faith of those in the congregation, going right back to 2 Cor 1:24 already quoted above.
  5. 3 points
    (Luke 12:41, 42) . . .Then Peter said: “Lord, are you telling this illustration just to us or also to everyone?” 42 And the Lord said: “Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time? Interesting. So when Peter asked Jesus, "Are you telling this illustration just to us or also to everyone?" Jesus should have answered, "NEITHER!" It's not to any of you apostles or disciples, because you'll be long dead by the time I return, and it's not to "everyone" either, because it's only going to apply to about two or three dozen people who are around between 1919 and, let's say, 100-and-some-odd years after that date.
  6. 2 points
    We can discuss judgment if you want. I can state how you have judged Christendom to say religion is false. I can add, how you believe the Org. is false. I could then apply your own words and scripture, about judgment. I would imagine this insight did not fail your motivation to make it a debate. The prospect of judgment falls upon your shoulder not mine. In other words, you have placed judgment upon yourself. Perhaps by reviewing your written words, it will give you that insight. Once again, heed your own words to refresh your memory. You claim the Org, to be false. Those churches that follow Christ, to the letter and in his footsteps receive the same Holy Spirit as the church of Christ. Can you give me an example of which other church runs parallel to the first century church? The church belongs to everyone who obeys God. I don't consider the church to be mine, but I am part of the church by obedience to God. There is no such thing as a Jesus Witness. Jesus however was a witness to his heavenly father to submit himself with obedience to him. I am, however, a witness of Jehovah. The creator of us all. I am proud to have Jehovah as my friend and creator. The terminology is different. When we seek the fault of others, we will find them. Imperfection cannot be removed by man, or human condition (absolution). Testing the spirit is an action, which can be applied when we decide to make scripture convince ourselves that we are correct when indeed we are not. This would be the purpose in difference when receiving God's Holy Spirit. Then why speak about love. You made the point, it has to be a specific human condition in order to follow Christ. How can love and hate run in sync, if not by loving the human soul and hating all that is evil within, humanity.
  7. 2 points
  8. 2 points
    This must have been devastating to Rutherford if Bible Students believed he was a prophet. According to the publications. A larger percentage of Bible Students left this suggested prophet. I can’t understand the logic, putting someone so high, then turn their backs on him, if he was truly considered a prophet. The Watchtower December 1, 1927 pg 355 col 1 par 4 During the past fifty years God has been causing his light to shine with increasing power upon his Word. He has not given his people new truths, but illuminated the truths already given. During that short period of time many have separated themselves from all organized systems of religion and have tried to walk in the way that Jesus and the apostles walked. For a time they made progress; and then many became tired and weary in well doing or thought more highly of themselves than they should think or became lawless, while others became offended. These turned away, so that today the larger percent of those who withdrew from so-called organized Christianity have turned aside and again gone back into the world. It must be certain Bible Students considered his insight as prophetic just like some considered Russell the wise servant. It’s unfortunate we can’t stop people from thinking in a certain way. The Watchtower November 15, 1930 pg 342 col 1 pars 1-2 The total number of those who have withdrawn from the Society and now oppose its work is comparatively large, when such are taken all together. These are now divided into many companies, all claiming to be followers of Christ and claiming to be God’s little flock, while at the same time they speak evil things concerning those who are faithfully endeavoring to serve God. They denounce the Society and its work, saying that its activities are due to a man-made theory and that those who go to make up the Society are carnally minded and are engaged in a book-selling business and not in the service of Jehovah. This can be relative when it comes to those that re-energize the same kind of modern division. We only need, look back to understand why.
  9. 2 points
    Sounds like Allen Smith is in a tizzy for having to create multiple new accounts........AGAIN! Allen, you can come out now, we know it's you!
  10. 2 points
    I think you are exactly right. This is why I said the following: That was based on Hebrews 13, of course, and also: (1 Tim. 5:17) Let the elders who preside in a fine way be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard in speaking and teaching. As Christians, we should question every one of our teachings, to make sure it is brought into obedience with Christ's teachings. We should never shirk our responsibility to "make sure of all things," "prove to yourselves," "test the inspired utterances," "pay close attention to your teaching," "see whether these things were so," etc., etc. And since the Governing Body have become the most public of our elder committees, and have taken on a greater responsibility, it is vital that we question them just as we should question a local body of elders. More will be asked of those to whom more has been given. Teachers will receive heavier judgment. We don't just want to have our ears tickled. In the NWT, the paragraph that starts out with 1 Tim 5:17, quoted above, ends with this phrase, after a discussion about reproving elders before all onlookers: (1 Timothy 5:21) 21 I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus and the chosen angels to observe these instructions without any prejudice or partiality. Remember that there was a group of men in the first century that, due to a set of circumstances, were being seen as a kind of "governing body" that was at least indirectly exerting an strong influence on the doctrines of distant congregations. Galatia was very far from Jerusalem; it was about as far from Antioch, as Antioch was from Jerusalem. So Paul wrote to Galatia about those men who were at least indirectly creating such an influence on them, and he said: (Galatians 1:7-3:1) 7 Not that there is another good news; but there are certain ones who are causing you trouble and wanting to distort the good news about the Christ. . . . Is it, in fact, men I am now trying to persuade or God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still pleasing men, I would not be Christ’s slave. . . . 15 But when God, who separated me . . . so that I might declare the good news about him to the nations, I did not immediately consult with any human; 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before I was, but I went to Arabia, and then I returned to Damascus. 18 Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to visit Ceʹphas, and I stayed with him for 15 days. 19 But I did not see any of the other apostles, only James the brother of the Lord. . . . . 2 Then after 14 years I again went up to Jerusalem with Barʹna·bas, also taking Titus along with me. 2 I went up as a result of a revelation, and I presented to them the good news that I am preaching among the nations. This was done privately, however, before the men who were highly regarded, to make sure that I was not running or had not run in vain. 3 Nevertheless, not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, although he was a Greek. 4 But that matter came up because of the false brothers brought in quietly, who slipped in to spy on the freedom we enjoy in union with Christ Jesus, so that they might completely enslave us; 5 we did not yield in submission to them, no, not for a moment, so that the truth of the good news might continue with you. 6 But regarding those who seemed to be important—whatever they were makes no difference to me, for God does not go by a man’s outward appearance—those highly regarded men imparted nothing new to me. 7 On the contrary, . . . .9 and when they recognized the undeserved kindness that was given me, James and Ceʹphas and John, the ones who seemed to be pillars, gave Barʹna·bas and me the right hand of fellowship, so that we should go to the nations but they to those who are circumcised. . . . 11 However, when Ceʹphas came to Antioch, I resisted him face-to-face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12 For before certain men from James arrived, . . . 13 The rest of the Jews also joined him in putting on this pretense, so that even Barʹna·bas was led along with them in their pretense. 14 But when I saw that they were not walking in step with the truth of the good news, . . . . 3 O senseless Ga·laʹtians! Who has brought you under this evil influence. . . ? So when Paul told Timothy not to show any partiality when it came to reproving elders before all onlookers, we see that Paul had already "walked the walk." If we are to be imitators of Paul's example, then we should be willing to look closely at all the doctrines and influences that we are taught, no matter who they come from. Even if from those who seem to be important, even if from the very pillars of the congregation, even if from James, Peter or John, or men sent from them. Would we be willing to resist such ones face to face? Or would we yield in submission because they were highly regarded? Fortunately, of course, that matter in Jerusalem was cleared up with the help of the holy spirit. Fortunately for us, most matters of this magnitude have already been cleared up, too, and we have no problem always giving the benefit of the doubt to those who want us to submit to their lead. This probably causes no problems at all for 99 percent of us. But we should still learn from the apostle Paul's words, that our teachings should not come from men, and that we should always be ready to resist any teachings that still need to be brought into harmony with the good news, no matter from whom or where we learned them. We should be happy to have a committee of elders who are willing to take on the necessary responsibilities for the world-wide congregations. We should respect them, honor them, and follow their lead. However, the teaching that claims that the Governing Body is equal to the Faithful and Discreet Slave of Mt 24 is one of those teachings that we should question, specifically for the Biblical reasons that Jesus and Paul gave us. Also because it directly contradicts other Watchtower teachings from the March 15 2015 Watchtower. Also, it gives the impression that there are specific humans that we should always identify as Leaders, (even "Governors") instead of looking IMPARTIALLY to each particular example of conduct and faith, to contemplate how it turns out. It gives us the impression that, for doctrinal matters, a certain group of men should always have the FINAL say, and can therefore override the Christian-trained conscience of individuals, who will stand or fall before the judgment seat as individuals. As true and discreet slaves, we will each take the initiative (take the lead, see footnote on) in carrying each other's burdens. None of us, no matter how much we think of ourselves, will believe that more honor goes to us than we should give to others. This is what true obedience means: (Galatians 6:2-5) . . .Go on carrying the burdens of one another, and in this way you will fulfill the law of the Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he is deceiving himself. 4 But let each one examine his own actions, and then he will have cause for rejoicing in regard to himself alone, and not in comparison with the other person. 5 For each one will carry his own load. (Romans 12:9-16) 9 Let your love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is wicked; cling to what is good. 10 In brotherly love have tender affection for one another. In showing honor to one another, take the lead.[fn, initiative] 11 Be industrious, not lazy. Be aglow with the spirit. Slave for Jehovah. 12 Rejoice in the hope. Endure under tribulation. Persevere in prayer. 13 Share with the holy ones according to their needs. Follow the course of hospitality. 14 Keep on blessing those who persecute; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; weep with those who weep. 16 Have the same attitude toward others as toward yourselves; do not set your mind on lofty things, but be led along with the lowly things. Do not become wise in your own eyes.
  11. 2 points
    The expectation of being spiritually uplifted here is zero. I recommend, all Jehovah witnesses that are not in conflict with themselves, not take part here. Being here only serves to rebuff those that have inherited conflict by their own initiative, or had past situations they were sanctioned for. Do not look favorably on that JW only club. It amounts to the same dissidence as it does here.
  12. 2 points
    So, if I am a HVAC contractor, and a church calls me up to fix their furnace or air conditioner, I can't do it? That is insanity on parade, and total nonsense. It is also DANGEROUS, because that perspective warps minds. OURS! WE BUY CHURCHES, chop off the steeple and cross, and rededicate it as a Kingdom Hall. I went to an OBVIOUS converted church-to-Kingdom-Hall, when I was a young boy, dropped a bag of marbles at the back, and they rolled all the way to the front, on a tile floor, in South Richmond, Virginia. False religion got "our" money, for the sale. We got the building.
  13. 2 points
    Saudi Arabia, with the help of the United States and the UK, has been directly and indirectly killing civilians in Yemen and creating a humanitarian crisis that has become so bad, that the United States had begun to distance itself from direct involvement. This started back nearly a decade ago when the ruling party of Yemen was a very small minority that was very pro-Saudi. Yemen is poor, but still had economic deals with Saudi Arabia that were profitable to the Saudi's. That small minority rulership was ousted and this created kind of a civil war in Yemen, with the Saudi's backing the ousted party. The new party is sometimes called the Houthi rebels, but most of it has more likely been just a group of civilians who have realized that there is more than enough majority support from a larger portion of the country (for a show of strength) than there was in the small ousted minority. But Saudi Arabia has billions in weapons that it bought from the U.S. But Saudi Arabia was short on jet pilots, refueling tankers, military intelligence agencies, willing armies, etc. So the US offered jet pilots, military intelligence, targeting, refueling stations, etc., so that the bombing of Yemen is as much a US operation as a Saudi one. This has created more starvation, more disease, and more "accidental bombings" of children's school buses, hospitals, weddings, funerals, etc., for as long as the US was helping with the targets. Of course, the Yemen people have been getting some help. Since the US helped to create the great humanitarian crisis through such terrorism, the Yemen people can't ask for help from the US, and have therefore gone to enemies of the US. (Iran? Russia? etc.) This is perfect for the US, because the Boltons and Pompeos have been able to say that it is therefore necessary to offer enough help to Saudi Arabia because anti-US forces must be dealt with somehow. Also, we can probably expect that this particular "win" by Yemen in hitting Saudi Arabia in the pocketbook (Aramco oil) will result in a way for the Boltons and Pompeos to get back into a more hawkish position. Therefore it will probably get more Western press than previous "wins" by Yemen when missiles have slipped through the cracks. Although Bolton is personally out for the moment, his positions have a better chance of still winning out over Trump's recent moderations, and forcing Trump to go back to a Bolton/Pompeo position on Yemen, Iran, etc. This works for as long as Yemen is always tied as a proxy to Iran/Russia etc.
      Hello guest!
  14. 1 point

    MY DAD

    MY DAD The following describes the children's perception of their Dad through a lifetime. When I was four years old: My daddy can do anything When I was five years old: My daddy knows a whole lot. When I was six years old: My dad is smarter than your dad. When I was eight years old: My dad doesn't know exactly everything. When I was 10 years old: In the olden days, when my dad grew up, things were sure different. When I was 12 years old: Oh, well, naturally, Dad doesn't know anything about that. He is too old to remember his childhood. When I was 14 years old: Don't pay any attention to my Dad. He is so old-fashioned. When I was 21 years old: You mean my Dad? Gee, he's hopelessly out of date. When I was 25 years old: Dad knows all about it, but then he should because he has been around so long. When I was 30 years old: Maybe we should ask Dad what he thinks. After all, he's had a lot of experience. When I was 35 years old: I'm not doing a single thing until I talk to Dad. When I was 40 years old: I wonder how Dad would have handled it. He was a wise man. When I was 50 years old: I'd give anything if Dad were here now so I could talk this over with him. Too bad I didn't appreciate how smart he was. I could have learned a lot from him.
  15. 1 point
    The risk , it is not this that we know , this is what one takes for granted and that the is not . - Mark Twain. DISBELIEVING DESPITE FACTS For centuries, people believed that Aristotle was right when he said that the heavier an object, the faster it would fall to earth. Aristotle was regarded as the greatest thinker of all time, and surely, he would not be wrong. Anyone, of course, could have taken two objects; one heavy and one light, and dropped them from a great height in a vacuum to see whether or not the heavier object landed first. But no one did until nearly 2,000 years after Aristotle's death. In 1589 Galileo summoned learned professors to the base of the Leaning Tower of Pisa. Then he went to the top and pushed off a ten-pound and a one-pound weight. Both landed at the same instant. The power of belief was so strong, however, that the professors denied their eyesight. For a time they continued to say Aristotle was right. This illustrates what is going on in the world today. You could show the ravaging effects of venereal diseases and people will have promiscuous sex anyway. Show someone a diseased liver and cancerous lungs, yet people will continue to abuse alcohol and smoke. If only someone would just climb to the top of the tower, push off a ten-pound argument and a one-pound argument, and just see which reaches the ground first. That would finally prove who is right and who is wrong. But then we are reminded that when Galileo did that no one believed him. It took many years for his findings to be accepted as truth. Most people are going to believe what they have always believed regardless of the facts. It takes time for people to change and accept what they believe may not be correct. So we should not feel discouraged if they don’t want to listen in spite of the evidence. It is just imperfect human nature. We should not judge people, because in the end, a perfect judge, Jehovah, will be the one rendering judgment.
  16. 1 point

    Seoul, Korea

  17. 1 point
    Reminds me a bit of when the Watch Tower publications declared Rutherford to be permeated with the real Biblical and prophetic spirit, while proposing that a British politician of the time was also like a prophet because he was declaring some of the same rhetoric that Rutherford was declaring. At the time, Rutherford was still trying to overcome the problem that 1914 had failed to be the fulfillment of that time of trouble, and he was pushing for the new idea that 1925 would resolve that problem by being a new time of trouble, and even the time for the physical resurrection of Old Testament faithful men of old to the Millennial age on earth. The Watchtower liked this "prophet" because he said that 1924 was to become even worse than 1914. By 1939 to 1944 it could be said that the true climax of these prophecies about 1924 had come true. Prophet Ramsay MacDonald and Prophet David Lloyd George hadn't predicted a resurrection, though.
  18. 1 point
    To fully understand what has been going on, you need to read George Orwell's famous book "1984" and pay particular attention to the "new light" that the main character Winston Smith was charged with archiving. It might even be a good idea to see the movie, also, which is not as good as the book, but it is a terrific movie. The chilling conclusion to the book is a goal that most Witnesses have been taught to seek, to have peace in the Congregations, and harmonious unity of thought. One of the most serious and heartbreaking paragraphs in all of human literature. " He gazed up at the enormous face. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark moustache. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother."
  19. 1 point
    You jw's are really missing out on Chick fil A chicken and Hobby Lobby.
  20. 1 point
    I appreciate your intent of enlightenment. I see several areas of doctrinal error of your own. I can see where the conjecture as JWinsider frames it can easily be applied to you and him. I don’t believe Jesus’s words to be imperfect but the more understood application of Jesus had to deal with imperfect men. Then it becomes a difference of what you mean by your application. In this case, I will agree with JWinsider, when you and he, state to test the spirit. Jesus meant the spirit of false prophets. Like those Pharisees who knew the law but refused to apply it properly. Those who change the spirit of what Christ taught us, can be summarized by exact knowledge and understanding. These are good areas to test the spirit. The question I would ask both of you? How did God touch your heart personally to know when the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses has changed or manipulated scripture in order to be accused of such? Where would the scriptural understanding of “having nothing to do with them” be applied to such a tested spirit here? Ephesians 5:7-9 JWinsider earlier comment suggested that all of us are faithful and wise Stewart's with the same consideration of the faithful and discreet slave. I can expand that with suggesting the Elders have the same capability. That was the impression with the comment. I don’t know which Bible is being understood here, but Scripture itself has a different take on such understandings. When I test the spirit within these comments, then I have to honestly remain in Jehovah’s Holy Spirit by not accepting such conjecture, using JWinsider's own words of determination of what is truth and what is made up to be seen as the truth. Sometimes we tend to focus on one scripture rather than the entire Bible. This is in effect the reason the Governing Body of Jehovah’s witnesses don’t submit to their own understanding but wait upon Jehovah’s Holy Spirit to guide them. Given that understanding, people should submit themselves to the letter of Jesus' teachings without having to use conjecture as a format to implement a personal understanding that would change Christ's teachings. Romans 12:1-3 Now I can debate Titus 3:10, but it will not yield fine fruit. I did not enter this site to have endless debates on perception or conjecture as per JWinsider own words.
  21. 1 point
    For the true "newbies" out there: We are told to “test the spirits to see whether they are from God”. 1 John 4:1 This is our responsibility as Christians. Jesus gave us guidelines to know if an anointed one speaks from the Spirit of Christ or from another spirit. He told us that by their fruits, their teachings, we would know if one is inspired by the Spirit of Truth. Those who remain in Christ would produce fruit that “lasts”, that remains, just as the teachings of Christ have remained to this day. You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. John 15:16 This means one’s teachings would not rot away, or be changed out for new “truth”. It’s a pretty simple guideline that we can either embrace, or blindly ignore. If we choose to ignore it and eat “fruit”/teachings from an anointed one that has a history of producing failed, “rotten” teachings, then…we make Jesus out to be a liar. Matt 7:17-19 We put more stock in what men say, than what Christ has told us. To receive “God’s instructions” would require inspiration from Holy Spirit. Yet, this is what your GB stated, and how they lean on a fabrication called “beliefs clarified” to justify their rotten fruit. The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction. In fact, the Watch Tower Publications Index includes the heading “Beliefs Clarified,” which lists adjustments in our Scriptural understanding since 1870. Of course, Jesus did not tell us that his faithful slave would produce perfect spiritual food. w17 February p. 26-27 Was God instructing your leaders in these failed doctrines? Would Christ who is Truth, produce imperfection? Ps 18:30; John 14:6 This statement certainly demeans Jesus Christ’s teachings, since he did say a faithful slave would produce perfect spiritual food that would last, as long as that one “remains” on the vine. John 15:1-4; Luke 8:15 "Don't work for the food that perishes (that needs continual adjustment) but for the food that lasts for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set his seal of approval on him." John 6:27 So, the “opposition” would be making excuses for his failed teachings, and convincing the majority with false promises that no matter what, Jesus will give his approval. We know from scripture that this isn’t the case. “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. 34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 36 But I say to you that for every idle word (“inactive,useless”) men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” Matt 12:33-37 Good things from the heart of an anointed one, are “good fruit”, that remains. “Evil things” are deceiving, “rotten fruit” that an “evil slave” would expect one to tolerate – with no questions asked. We choose to uphold Christ’s teachings about testing each bit of “fruit” offered us by anointed ones, or we listen to men who can have a negative influence on our spirituality by failing to provide lasting fruit/teachings. If 8 men, who have convinced you they are “faithful” and “discreet”, but are not faithful to these simple guidelines given us by Jesus Christ, then their “inspiration” is from another spirit. They have lost God’s Spirit. Matt 24:24; 2 Pet 3:17,18; 1 John 2:19 The apostles were led by Holy Spirit because they were “inspired”, and they acted upon it. Holy Spirit cannot continue to “dwell” in an anointed one’s heart and not inspire them also…to speak truth, as defined by God, and not men. 1 Cor 3:16,17; 2 Cor 6:16; 1 Thess 4:7,8; 2 Tim 1:14
  22. 1 point
    What a paranoid nutcase, someone who has become a self-fulfilling prophesy! If I didn’t know better, I would say he is one of Jack Ryan’s IMF secret agents. How did he get to be this way? Did the fellow, probably always quirky but also idealistic, once require readjusting, per 2 Corinthians 13:9-11, and someone too heavy-handed used a sledge hammer instead of a chisel? Surely the “people afraid” must be those found online, certainly not in the flesh at the Kingdom Hall, for this “fear” is not the spirit that exists at any Hall that I am aware of. If they are online, then they are murky. You don’t know who they are, regardless of what they may say. Yet if these are the ones you hang out with, you do nothing but feed into your confirmation bias, which seems well past the point of no return Nurturing that bias from online, my guess is that you project it on ones who you actually meet in person, because they are simply not that way in reality. The complaining spirit is yours, not theirs. The fear is yours, not theirs, that if you actually speak openly of your contempt for those taking the lead in the Christian Congregation, they will immediately apply to you the verse about gangrene—diseased tissue that is beyond the point of healing, and start thinking of how one must deal with gangrenous tissue. (2 Timothy 2:17) And does newbie @Sean Migos think that he can find things “spiritually uplifting” here? Provocative, yes, newsworthy sometimes, even thoughtful in places (though not this one). But for what is truly spiritually uplifting, one must search within the context of the congregation, “a pillar and support of the truth.” (Not to discourage Sean, of course, who states his case well, but just to serve as a reality check) There was that plea from JTR on what was to be found in the Love Never Fails convention. After attending, I thought of the discussion of what love is, per 1 Corinthians 13, specifically how it covers a “multitude of sins”—whether they be yours or those of others. But I also anticipated the reaction: “Yeah, I’ll start when they start.” I fear the heart has become too hardened for any of that counsel to sink in.
  23. 1 point
    James Thomas Rook Jr.

    Seoul, Korea

    Usually, in the USA, it means after picking your nose, rolling the booger into a ball to dry it out, before flicking it away.
  24. 1 point
  25. 1 point
    Triste que todos tenemos que envejecer..... Como el tiempo pasa rapido. Siente como ayer cuando lo vi cantando en Siempre en Domingo (1991) 😂
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    Question. Is that JW only for Jehovah’s witnesses to discuss uplifting spiritual matters or is it the same as it is here where witnesses will come together to criticize doctrine, policy, and the governing body? I don’t want to be part of any unhelpful discussion if I join.
  31. 1 point
    The Roman Catholic Diocese of Rochester, facing potentially huge judgments for past sexual abuse by its priests and other ministers, filed for bankruptcy protection Thursday morning.
      Hello guest!
    some quotes from article: At the same time, some critics say a bankruptcy proceeding may limit the release of damning information about abuse and cover-up, leaving some victims feeling the process did not provide the public acknowledgment of their torment that they had sought. "Settlements provided through bankruptcy court typically allow church officials to keep disclosures of abuse in house. Without having to report these allegations to the police or otherwise making them public, a full accounting of the number of abusers and who may have concealed or ignored those crimes can stay hidden," asserted a statement released by SNAP, a nationwide support group for victims of church sex abuse. Another plaintiff's lawyer, Jeff Anderson, whose firm has filed more CVA lawsuits than any other to date, denounced the diocese's move as "very disturbing and disappointing. "Bishop Salvatore Matano’s choice is simply a legal tactic to protect assets and prevent jury trials, and an attempt to prevent the truth from being revealed," Anderson said.
  32. 1 point
  33. 1 point
    And if the case you get compensation where the money will go? to the publisher or the congregation or the WT? 🤔
  34. 1 point

    Some interesting quotes

    I like those. If I have your permission, I want to add this that heard today while watching the Titanic and liked too 😄
  35. 1 point
    John Redwood's Quick and Fast Essay about 'The Montana Supreme Court - Child Sex Abuse - Jehovah's Witnesses Organization.' The Montana Supreme Court I would like to thank everyone with their patience in getting some information about what happened in Billings Montana today. The Supreme Court arguments only took two hours, but the rest of my day was spent with the attorneys and the plaintiffs. And I must say, when I have the opportunity to choose between spending time with these fine people and writing up a summary, I choose to be with these incredible people every single time. The summary, the analysis, the social media posts- all of that can come later. I know others have watched the proceedings online, and there has also been some media coverage of this event. But let me say this- it's is a very complex case, and it will not be decided for a minimum of 4-6 months- although resolution can come sooner or later. That being said I will offer a few observations. Today was a special day for the State of Montana. The Capitol of Montana is Helena, but for a number of important reasons, the Supreme Court for the State heard oral arguments today in a conference room at the Northern Hotel in Billings. Unlike the small courtroom in Thompson Falls Montana one year ago, today there were hundreds of attorneys present. Most were there to attend the Montana Trial Lawyers conference. The Nunez v Watchtower appeal was the focal point of the day. Professor Cynthia Ford opened up the appeal hearing by discussing the details of the case. She explained upfront that this is a very complicated case, but summarized the key components very well. Because of the complexity of this case I am only going to mention a few points, then discuss what happened in greater detail in the near future. This is not an open and shut case. It involves many issues, from things which happened before, during and after the trial which took place a year ago next week. Watchtower attorney Joel Taylor lied to the Montana Supreme Court. Taylor was asked whether the Watchtower or CCJW organization would penalize someone (an elder) who decided to follow his own conscience and report allegations of child sexual abuse to the authorities. Taylor said such persons would make their own "conscience-based decision on whether to report and that they would not be penalized. He said that would be a decision between them and God. [We all know how God treats elders who disobey] Not only was this an outright lie, but it contradicts testimony from the trial itself, where Watchtower representative Doug Chappel acknowledged that elders must comply with Watchtower policy- or they will not be elders. Aside from lying to the Montana Supreme court, Watchtower has made many other claims, including the claim that Watchtower and CCJW had no duty to protect Lexi Nunez, and that they did not even know of her "existence." They claim that Lexi is not even among the class of persons which the Montana reporting law was designed to protect. If anything infuriates Lexi, it's the fact that she was treated like a non-existent entity to Watchtower. An invisible peon deserving of no attention or protection from a multi-billion dollar religious corporation. Trust me, Watchtower knows who Lexi is now. And Holly. And Ivy. They picked the wrong women to ignore. Of course, the law was designed to do exactly that- to protect children from abuse when allegations become known. If Watchtower had permitted elders to do the right thing and phone the authorities regarding the abuse of Holly and Peter, it's clear we would not be sitting before the Supreme Court today, and the threat to Lexi would have been mitigated. One of Watchtower's loudest claims in this and all other abuse cases is that they have every right not to report child abuse (to keep it confidential) because it violates their "established church practice." This means that Watchtower wants to claim that all of their elders' meetings, discussions with other elders locally and at Watchtower in New York, and anyone else they designate are all covered by their religious confidentiality. Watchtower desires complete religious autonomy with no respect for the mandatory reporting laws which are in place for a reason. They place their perceived right to define confidentiality as a right greater than than the rights of the victims. The reality is that they wish to control the flow of information about child abuse and direct it to their lawyers and their service department, bypassing State authorities. They have expanded the definition to include anyone and everyone, including the child molester themselves. Another issue raised today was the constitutionality of the 10 million dollars Montana punitive damages cap. I won't spend a lot of time of this because it pales in comparison with the fact that a jury already decided that Watchtower was guilty of negligence and malice. So at the end of the day, whatever happens, Lexi won her case, and she has the support of Montana's citizens - the jurors who spent their week listening to testimony and who made the right decision to hold Watchtower accountable. Whether it ends up being 3 million or 35 million- either way, what people think about this religious corporation is priceless. We are hoping the Montana Supreme Court justices agree that the cap is unconstitutional, as it limits the ability of a plaintiff to send a powerful message to a multi-billion dollar corporation which controls the lives of millions. We want Watchtower to get that message. They have been settling lawsuits for decades now, a few million here, a few million there. They are not getting the message, which is why the cap needs to be removed. The jury felt this way, and so did Judge Manley from the original trial court. In a few months, we will find out. I'd like to comment more as so many things happened today. But as I said before, the best part was spending time with all of these people, whom I consider family. And they welcomed me into their circle, for which I am very grateful. I will do my best to answer any questions you might have, and if I don't have the answer immediately, I will get it. It's been a long day, and I will be driving a long way tomorrow, then catching two different flights to get home. It was all worth it. John Redwood
      Hello guest!
  36. 1 point
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  38. 1 point
    Perhaps it will be a little expensive to call few of you across the Ocean :)) .... and with my slow mind and weak English .... i think i will stay on text :)))))
  39. 1 point
    It if was just that easy. Experience by those who do so, will say that no one gets up and moves on without being shunned or disfellowshipped for doing so. So, although no one actually made an individual do anything, it is stipulated that any who are independent of GB direction, are "apostate"; especially if it is expressed verbally. But you know these things already.
  40. 1 point
    At the age of 37 I once swam the entire length of the Melville, Johannesburg olympic sized swimming pool - underwater.
  41. 1 point
    I was able to change the title. So if people want to discuss this fake news phenomena, the item is still here. BTW, the linked site above gives many indications that they deal in Fake News (along with some real stuff too, to increase interest).
  42. 1 point
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    She probably has weights on her legs, under her dress, or has her feet hooked under some kind of support like an open cinder block or something. When I was a young man, I could hold my breath for 5 minutes and 23 seconds, but I bobbed around on the surface like a fishing line cork. She may also be in three feet deep water, with her knees bent, so she can rise for a breath of air on an instant's notice.
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  48. 1 point
    Looks to me like JW's have anti -holidays, so it's just as bad. I've known JW's that will not eat a roast dinner on 25th December because they are frightened it will look like a Christmas dinner. As for pushing for a special effort on a stupid day, well it seems like a way of actually celebrating that day to me. It's like saying they know that day is special to people. And the Christmas day door to door witnessing is not a good thing. It's intrusive and rude. It's not wanted by people outside the JW org. I did it once just to prove that i wasn't scared to do it, but it does not show love to people, it's just being 'pushy' to the extreme.
  49. 0 points


    Yes, you are right. The Bible is God’s Word, the Word is the Logos, the Logos is Christ. John 1:1,2 Go one step further, and listen to Christ’s teachings on how we are to “know” God. It is through Christ. He is much more than an example to imitate. He is our only personal path, to draw close to the Father. While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!”Matt 17:5 How can we hear Christ if we do not listen to his words that tell us we must come to him, to know the Father? John 8:19 John 6:37 – “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.” And, how can we believe in someone, if we don’t get to know him? John 3:16,36 – “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” With Jesus, We hear him We get to know him We believe in him We realize that by doing so, we will then, “know” the Father. Should we resist getting to know Christ? But look: “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:44 God knows our hearts and our desires…and our fears. If we block our heart and mind from personally getting to know Christ, will we ever be drawn to him by the Father? Can men tell us NOT to get to know Christ intimately? Yes, your leaders have. 2 Cor 11:4 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.” John 12:48
  50. -1 points
    This is the JW version of the rapture. The doctrine that is if armageddon starts while some governing body members / annointed are still alive, they will be "gathered" (aka raptured) into heaven.

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