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  1. 3 points
    Lol...well I probably am a misfit...I smiled at that..but I think I will still follow Joshua’s and Kalebs example....they would have hated to see what Aaron was doing with the Golden calf...I’m sure they would have stood apart mentally and spiritually from that...but they didn’t leave the camp....they showed great faith that Moses would come back...and I’m sure many were very confused at that time....I too will wait for Jesus to come down from the mountain....and correct his people... I remember a number of personal accounts of sisters and brothers being put into German concentration camps...they would often get taunted by their captors because those in leadership at that time...COs and Elders and even those in authority of the branch office betrayed them.....and those little sisters of no account and probably viewed as insignificant in the cong ...said.....”they may do as they wish..but for me...I will remain loyal to my God” So this little old misfit will do the same....:).....along with many many others who will stand firm and loyal to their God and Christ....You have underestimated so many of us... .
  2. 2 points
    I understand your points and you have expressed them very well. I will address each point you raised separately, but first I just want to mention a few general things which have perhaps shaped the perception of people like you and me. I grew up in the "truth" in the early 80's when the GB was mostly an anonymous mystery, at least to many who were living outside of America. The "truths" people like me assimilated during those years were turned into dogmatic doctrines by people like me. We always talked starting a phrase with "we KNOW....." as if we could never make a mistake. We had a general attitude of superiority. WE had the truth and therefor WE were somehow better than other people. WE had an answer for "everything". And then came the age of the internet. It was a kind of "Internet enlightenment". It had been around for a while before that, but soon everybody had access to it, and was using it. Information that the ordinary person wouldn't have had before, became available to them at the touch of a button. There were things that were "discovered" by the ordinary brother and sister that were there all along, but that were only known by more prominent brothers and sisters, which included those involved with Bethel, but also ordinary brothers and sisters which happened to live closer to the "source" . But now the ordinary brother came to know things that at times "shocked" him, because in their little personal world they had built a picture, but that picture wasn't always correct. As I mentioned, dogmatic opinions on various subjects were formed, which actually were not intended to be understood that way. Here is an example of what I mean; I am sure you know of instances yourself, where a elder giving a talk would expound on something he felt strongly about. A kind of "pet" subject of his. Most of the time the audience would take what he said as gospel truth, and talk about it like it was fact and part and parcel of "official" teachings. But all it actually was, was the brothers opinion. This happened many times in the days of only a brief outline of a talk, giving the speaker much freedom to practically say anything he wanted. A classic and famous example is that of Charles Sinutko giving the talk about 1975. He wasn't just an elder, but a district overseer, and he gave that misleading talk in front of an audience of thousands. Similar talks were given around the world no doubt. I was too young at the time but @Outta Here remembers such talks, and also the almost "fanatical" approach of some in the congregations. Was this all the GB's doing? It wasn't, but it shows the freedom that existed with regard to expressing ones opinion in an "official" setting, by means of talks etc. As you probably know, now there are strict outlines for talks. Not only that, but elders are instructed to Only give the Bible's advice when serving in a shepherding or judicial capacity, and never give their personal opinions. I am sure this new approach became a necessity because of the damage personal opinions had caused in the past. One I want to focus on specifically is the handling of child abuse. The congregation was well equipped to prevent child abuse on the surface. But it was all contingent on members actually reading and applying what was in the publications that discussed those issues. The JW congregation has always been very strict on upholding moral standards. In comparison, the rest of the world was in a moral decline (think "free love" that started in the 60's) and with it no doubt came problems associated with loose morals. Secular authorities were ill equipped to handle accusations of rape and child sexual abuse, as you yourself can testify. In this environment Elders were trying to handle something that was disgusting and shocking and should have never occurred in the Christian congregation in the first place! Some Elders got confused and misapplied WT 1973/11/15 "question from readers" regarding the application of 1 Cor 6:1-7, and the interpretation of 1Timothy 5:19. Many Elders were stuck between a rock and a hard place with regard to reporting to the police because of the way the police handled (or not handled) these cases, and because many victims and their families did not want to report to the police. It was almost like an attitude of: "this is our private problem, and we will handle it as our private problem". Finally today, secular authorities are educated and equipped enough to address these issues properly, and I would say we are at the pinnacle of "enlightenment" with regard to CSA, at least in the western world. Victims are at last able to come forward and be heard. Abusers are being tried and punished. This has also spilled into historic sexual abuse of women as in the #metoo brigade. BUT despite all this, CSA and the abuse of women is as rampant as ever unfortunately.... You have a good heart John and I feel you have unnecessarily thrown the baby out with the bathwater. But I do want to address those issues individually that you mentioned, but I will have to do that tomorrow now as I am running out of time and have to go and cook dinner....
  3. 2 points
    Yeah, my profile photo is from years ago, taken at my eldest Son's wedding. My children had just tied me to the top of a car and run me through the car wash. Today I have wrinkles that cast shadows, and could grow corn.
  4. 2 points
    It just isn't that easy to do in the organization. According to your leaders, it is necessary to dedicate oneself to the organization. Otherwise, anyone could get baptized anywhere....like the Ethiopian who was baptized by Philip. You bear the identifying “mark” of this “spirit-directed organization”. Where does this leave God , who demands exclusive devotion? Can you serve two Masters? Matt 6:24 ; Deut 6:4-8; Rev 13:1,4,7,11, 15-17 “Have you dedicated your life to Jehovah and symbolized your dedication by water baptism? If so, that is wonderful! Recall that on your baptism day, before eyewitnesses, you were asked whether you had dedicated yourself to Jehovah and understood that “your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization.” Your affirmative answers served as a public declaration of your unreserved dedication and showed that you were qualified for baptism as an ordained minister of Jehovah. You must have made Jehovah very happy!” W17/4/ pp. 3-8 It is quite important that JWs keep in mind their promise to serve the organization. The phrase was already italicized; I marked it in bold. The title of this WT is very telling – “What you Vow, Pay.“ The introductory scripture of the article is Matt 5:33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ However, the GB did not provide a way for you to investigate what Jesus said next. 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one. Doesn’t it appear that the organization is going beyond what Jesus words have indicated? ANYTHING written as a command beyond his words, comes from the evil one. Jesus’ command: Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Matt 28:19,20 Questions for baptism in the organization: "The first question is: On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will? Wt 18/3 pp 3-7 and WT 1985,6/1 p. 30 The second is: Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization? Having answered yes to these questions, candidates are in a right heart condition to undergo Christian baptism." WT 18/3 pp. 3-7 They have certainly gone beyond Jesus' words by making a point that you identify yourself with the organization. Where does it say in the scriptures that the "right heart condition" depends on a dedication to an earthly organization? Why don’t they mention one’s dedication to Jesus Christ? Why would one’s dedication to the organization be more important than serving God AND Christ. They are one in Spirit. Why didn't they follow Christ's command? John 17:22 "anything beyond this comes from the evil one". "Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations." Matt 12:18 The Watchtower leaders take more delight in “Jehovah’s organization” than in God’s Son. (they preach a different Jesus 2 Cor 11:4) They take more delight in their self-made commands, than those of Jesus Christ. Are you to tolerate this? As John brought out, Jesus didn't tolerate the lies of the Pharisees. In fact, Jesus said, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’” Luke 13:34,35 God doesn't fix lies and sin. He warns us of the lies that may come against us by wolves in sheep's clothing, and to reject them, not tolerate them. Jer 5:31; Matt 7:20 I really hope you can see this. “I JEHOVAH your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion.” Thus Jehovah God calls attention to the fact that he tolerates no rivals. Devotees of pagan religions may have a pantheon, but not those worshiping the unique God Jehovah.—Ex. 20:5, NW. WT 58/1/1 p.30 Indeed, God has a rival. It is the Watchtower organization. Those who remain loyal to Jehovah’s organization take the view the apostles did when many of Jesus’ disciples stopped following him. Peter expressed their feelings by saying: “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life.” (John 6:68) The loyal “sheep” see that the way to life is with Jehovah’s faithful organization. w62 12/15 pp. 758-763 Oh my. Since when did the way to life divert from Christ, and point to“Jehovah’s organization”? Since a mere hundred years ago or so. WT 62 12/15 pp. 758-763 You sound so troubled, somewhat of a misfit JW. Matt 11:28 There is more peace of mind on the other side of the wall of lies, than within such darkness. Ezek 13:10-16 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.” John 6:68,69
  5. 2 points
    He tends to focus on the religious clubs. This was a post in the secular part of the website.... I have noticed but don't really care as much as he does if people go off on crazy topics completely unrelated to anything. I blame this on our infrastructure not allowing threaded replies. Maybe someday forums will grow up and learn from social media.  .... oh wait I'm sure there is already a thread about this in here somewhere. Ooops
  6. 1 point
    The GB are so similar to the religious leaders in Jesus' time. And they were responsible for the spiritual feeding in the Synagogues and at the Temple. But John the Baptist and Jesus told the people what was wrong in their teaching and behavior. But the religious leaders, the High Priest, the Pharisees, the Saddusees, the scribes etc. refused to repent and correct their ways. And became seriously guilty. Many anointed brothers and sisters have written letters to the GB and tried to correct them, but until now they do not listen. Will they ever listen and repent? Or will they follow the course of the religious leaders of Jesus' time? We will see.
  7. 1 point
    Matthew 24:40 In reply the King will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ Now the GB has blatantly distorted Jesus' words about what it means to help Jesus' brothers, the anointed. GB outright discourages brothers and sisters to give special attention to the anointed, except for themselves. That can not be right.
  8. 1 point
    "When we find ourselves making explicit demands," That's Your words Kid..... So what are you burbling about ? Have you been drinking or are you on tablets that upset your mind ? Get well soon Kid.
  9. 1 point
    The thing is Srecko, SM doesn't believe the JW's have it right, or he would be one.
  10. 1 point
    Ok, that is nice hope. What is the reason that God's Kingdom watching all these misery, pain and tears of children who suffer? And do nothing? (waiting to see would your possible respond will be the same as WT publication explanation :::))))) Next. You said GK is ONLY who can clear all that. So, in other words it is the same as you or someone else say how all efforts that people doing is in vain, useless at the end of day. By that logic, God will not blessed or guide or inspired nothing and nobody in their efforts that this monstrous and evil problem be "solved" or at least minimized. Because, all blessing is on future Kingdom and not on this, today human now living on Earth. Out of this subject. But you are talking so much of JW as "Restorationist" christian group. Web provide me this: "Restorationist" denominations include: The Christadelphians, The Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), Churches of Christ, The Community of Christ, The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS), Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ, International Churches of Christ, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh-day Adventists, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons) etc. I am not sure that JWorg would be happy to be in same "pot" with this other denominations. Because, according to WT only JW teaching "the truth", and no one else on this list :))
  11. 1 point
    What tablets are you taking J T ?
  12. 1 point
    At what moment "The Truth" has ceased to be "The Truth"? Perhaps when recruitment of new and more donors becomes more important than Justice and Mercy, and personal integrity Resistance may be futile ... but not EVERY person of integrity and honest heart wants to be fully assimilated, and become a BORG
  13. 1 point
    @Space Merchant2 In the final part of the days,The mountain of the house of Jehovah Will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, And it will be raised up above the hills, And to it all the nations will stream. 3 And many peoples will go and say:“Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, To the house of the God of Jacob. He will instruct us about his ways, And we will walk in his paths.”For law will go out of Zion, And the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. Thank you S.M... Isaiah 2 v 2&3. 23 “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people. " Zechariah 8 v23. The Watchtower Study Edition April 12. Life story by Leonard Smith :- THE Jewish man symbolizes anointed Christians, and the “ten men” represent the “other sheep,” or “Jonadabs,” as they were known back then. * (John 10:16) Note he does not say the Jewish man symbolizes the Governing Body. He says the Jewish man symbolizes the Anointed Christians. A big difference.
  14. 1 point
    This is because people do not take into account the actions of those in the Bible, mainly those mentioned in the Old Testament, especially Moses, of whom there is a passage that prompts people to deny him and say they do not follow Moses, for they say this because they do not taken into context his actions, which was similar to that of King Saul. For those who claim to read the Bible ignore these facts that is as clear as day, placed before them like the sun in the sky, for it is that obvious. That being said, no Restorationist Christian in history, or ANY non-trinitarian, claim to be inspired, those who nullify by being spirit direct and or the holy spirit into the mix clearly have no idea of what the notion actually is - inspired and or not inspired prophets and or teachers.
  15. 1 point
    Probably the same reason David got so much wrong and Peter, Samson,Moses..oh and Jonah
  16. 1 point
    Just in case anyone might misunderstand, I would like to make it clear that I am neither disgruntled, or non-disgruntled, but am merely moderately well gruntled.
  17. 1 point
    You have no idea who you are speaking with John..I and my family have been victims of much worse than child abuse ....it is you who have no idea...and it’s is because I have had a spear thru my heart...that I feel I can speak as I do... there are bad men in positions of authority....wolves In Sheeps clothing..heartless and cruel men who are drunk on their own power over a cong.. having said that ..most are not like that....but why are you expecting g such a clean org now....that is impossible..we won’t be clean and acceptable until after the thousand years...at the moment we are in critical times hard to deal with...he encourages us to keep putting up with each other..because he knew how hard and difficult such things would be.. i am terribly sorry if you had been a victim of abuse...many of us are victims of the most severe abuse...abuse is not always of the sexual kind.......some have not survived..... there is much wrong amongst his people...but the point is....you didn’t dedicate yourself to an org.....you should have dedicated yourself the the Almighty Creator...... none of us have the answers...you don’t..nor I...only Jehovah will fix this..and thus faith must come Into to play.. now I must take my leave from you....as you are not good for me....you open my wounds and the festering starts all over again...you promote bitterness and restment....and they are my fall down...Ive had to work very hard at understanding why Jehovah allows such horrendous things amongst his people.....the answers are there John...but I know you are past wanting that.......even tho I know it is possible to heal....and see the big picture...Again I am sincely sorry and anguished at your pain from abuse...
  18. 1 point
    @BillyTheKid46 Well there is more, including the ones all 3 of us had mentioned. That being, God raised him up again, having loosed the pangs of death, since it was not possible for him to be held by it. (Acts 2:24). This Jesus God raised up again. (Acts 2:32). You put to death the Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses. (Acts 3:15). Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead (Acts 4:10). The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. (Acts 5:30). God raised him up on the third day (Acts 10:40). God raised Him from the dead... God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, "You are My son; Today I have begotten You." He raised him up from the dead, no longer to return to corruption... He whom God raised did not undergo corruption (Acts 13:30-37). His Son, who came to be out the seed of David according to the flesh, fixed son of God in power by the resurrection out of the dead, according to the Spirit of Holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 1:3-4) Those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. (Romans 4:24). Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. (Romans 6:4) But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit which dwells in you. (Romans 8:11). God raised him from the dead. (Romans 10:9). Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power. (1 Corinthians 6:14). Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. (1 Corinthians 15:15). We also believe, therefore we also speak knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus. (2 Corinthians 4:13-14). The God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.... He raised him from the dead and seated him at His right hand in the heavenlies (Ephesians 1:17-20). You turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead. (1 Thessalonians 1:10) ...through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. (1 Peter 1:21) God the Father, who raised him from the dead. (Galatians 1:1).
  19. 1 point
    The only factor that plays against you is the fact Jesus was/is able to do nothing himself expect the Father who is able to do these things. In the Gospel of John, Jesus insisted that he was not able to do anything from himself. As he himself testified, it was the Father abiding in him who did the works (John 14:10; cf. Matt 12:28; Acts 2:22). Now, to you, if this was true of Jesus while he was alive and well, how much more was he unable to do anything of himself when he was laying dead in a tomb. John 5:30 - I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. The other factor against you in this regard what is said in other verses in Acts and elsewhere, I can think of 16 verses, coupled with references and context, right now. Not to mention they misinterpret what he said, as is done before. So how, according to you does that relate back to Acts 2:24 when Acts 13:2 is not a cross-references to the core passage in of itself? We also should not be leaving out the fact the verse professed before states that He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit which dwells in you. So yes. As for Acts 13:2 it reads: While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” The Holy Spirit is spoken of many, many times in the Greek Text as it is mentioned here as well, and the focus here is the Christ who has died and has risen, Acts 13:2 focuses on such ones ministering for God. The references for this verse points to Ac 9:15 and 1 Timothy 2:7, even while outlined nothing points back in references to Jesus being risen from the tomb.
  20. 1 point
    They stumbled ... or were they tripped? (Mark 9:42) . . .But whoever stumbles one of these little ones who have faith, it would be better for him if a millstone that is turned by a donkey were put around his neck and he were pitched into the sea. . . I can not but agree with a lot of the exposed by some of you. The steward (slave) class, I think, represents any brother with authority over others in the congregation (in the house). Par excellence the brothers on charge over the worldwide work fits more than any other to the meaning of the slave parable. Presently, we’ve reduced the meaning of the Jesus’s illustration to a mere warning, a remote possibility: the slave NEVER become bad. I understand it’s difficult to admit, as difficult as it was for the apostles to recognize that, in spite of being warned by Jesus, they would betray and abandon him. “We… do that! Never! Similarly, the Bible, everywhere, warn us the God’s people, overall, globally, will face a bad condition in precisely the last days: Between others: · The foolish virgins · The slave with one talent · The man not wearing a marriage garment (Mt 22) · The slave hiding the mina (Lk 19) · The love of the greater number will grow cold (Mt 24:12) · Critical times (in the congregation, please note the context: 2:20; 3:6) And more precisely SOME of the brothers on charge · Some of those having insight (Da 11:35) · The evil slave · The steward Now, concerning this thread we have the situation about the 1975 issue. Was it a mere doctrinal point, without relevance? · 1976 service year publishers: 2.138 million · 1978 service year publishers: 2.086 million Thousands of little ones stumbling Has been shown in this thread some “sincere” recognition of guilt or responsibility from the responsible brothers. But, sincerely, these sounds to me as the Aaron’s answer: · Ex 32:22, 24: “You well know that the people are inclined to do evil… Then I threw it into the fire and out came this calf.” It was the people’s fault, not mine. The calf arose by itself from the fire, I just had nothing to do! The same pride I observe in myself, and many others overseeing the flock. The difference lies in that I harm to my family, perhaps to my own congregation, but the brothers on charge of the worldwide instruction harm the entire brotherhood. Regarding this harm, presently, the most dangerous doctrinal matter affecting, not our ideas, but the real life of sincere Christians around the world is the deals with disfellowshipped persons, more precisely family members. This is a horrible misinterpretation of the Bible teaching in 1 Cor 5. I literally cry many times observing families broken, many times with life wounds. Perhaps another day I will write more about this, so don’t extend now. And, regarding the part of the parable saying starting “to eat and drink and get drunk,” (Lk 12;45) I also wish to point out some ideas in another post. Am I worried? Yes, certainly, but confident that as Jehovah in all times disciplined and cleaned His servants so will do if He see it necessary (yes, I see it necessary)
  21. 1 point
    Some probably thought these instructions were unreasonable (at the time): “So Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves." John 6:53 Or this: "After these things the Lord designated seventy others and sent them forth by twos in advance of him into every city and place to which he himself was going to come." Luke 10:1. Or even this :"Let the man on the housetop not come down to take the goods out of his house; and let the man in the field not return to the house to pick up his outer garment." Matt.24:17-18.
  22. 1 point
    I won't speak for the @admin since he is probably not even aware of this "controversy" right now.... BUT.... I just can't imagine Jesus Christ creating JesusChrist.org to publish his words... and then tell everyone that nobody has the legal right to copy his words. If anything EVERY KING of Israel was to MAKE A COPY of the scrolls.... to what purpose? TO SHARE THEM. The Watchtower Lawyers are thinking of JW.org as a money making for profit corporation instead of the charity and group of like minded bible students that it should be and was at one time.. When the apostles were angered that others were preaching the gospel of Jesus what did he tell them? "Round up the Christian Lawyers" ... NO!!! Advertise, Advertise , Advertise the King and His Kingdom......hmmm......




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