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  1. 3 points
    In one hand your word is right Anna, but Shiwiii have better argument because Natural Law, or if you like Bible verses, have stronger argument, and that is; ..... do what is good in your eyes, by your conscious, what is good before people and before God, obey God more than men. Or if you want Ultimate and Final bible text about ALL things in LIFE ----- Love your neighbor as yourself. ...so what ever GB or WT Manual Book or lawyer or Court or police say .....do love .... and do find the way.
  2. 3 points
    I like this thought very much. First time that i saw somebody put it in writing or say it aloud in this simple but distinctive sentence. Bravo John!
  3. 2 points
    Based on your statement and the word "obligate"
      Hello guest!
    Synonyms for obligate require constrain oblige bind force restrain restrict astrict indebt common sense says no, but now were dealing with people who cannot think for themselves because the gb has told them otherwise. I understand, your org is precious and when outsiders (government commissions included) point out things that are just plain WRONG, it hurts your view of right and wrong. Its called cognitive dissonance.
  4. 2 points
    so jws have to wait until forced to what is good?
  5. 2 points
    so why doesn't the policy state to bring it up to the police? Would they if it was murder? it is in a sense murder, murder of their innocence.
  6. 2 points
    Romans 13 says they are bound by means of doing what is good.
  7. 2 points
    Romans13 1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed. How come this does not come into the minds of jws when talking about CSA and the authorities?
  8. 2 points
    If conversation about this issue can make frustration of sort inside this circle of us who talking from distance to each other, imagine what heavy and hard and painful it is for those who experienced this things and must be in face to face situation !
  9. 2 points
    This is now sounding exactly like Allen Smith.
  10. 2 points
    Quote @Anna "....you just want the congregation to be informed to protect the children in that congregation. " I don't think it is possible to instruct the Elders that you want the congregation to be informed.... As far as I am aware the Elders DO NOT INFORM the congregation that there is a Pedophile within it. They certainly would not name the Pedophile. And it seems you are advising the idea of hiding a Pedophile within the JW Org, which is one of the things I've been saying from square one. By not informing the police it would be hiding that Pedophile in that congregation. It would also be protecting a criminal. Quite strange really as this is what you are accusing me of, failing in my duty to report it. But in this 'hypothetical situation' he would have first hand evidence, therefore be more entitled to report it, and more morally duty bound to do so. But also, are you saying that the Elders are not bound by scripture / service to God, to report it to the police, even if there is no 'law' of the land to do so ? Are you suggesting that those men (Elders) who, you would say, are chosen by God or Jesus Christ, through Holy Spirit, yet are not bound to care for the safety of people inside and outside the JW Org ? Is there not obligation for such ones to care for widows and orphans, and little children within and outside the Org if it is possible for them to do so.
  11. 2 points
    What would it be if it were happened..... We do not need this imagination because we have real people with real events dear Anna.
  12. 2 points
    Did WT made change about need for TWO witnesses? Did WT allow that sisters/women be present in investigation process as support for male and especially female minors victims and other victims no matter of ages? Did WT allow that sister/women be involved in Judicial process that involve sex crimes and domestic violence inside and outside family environment when female victims are involved? Did WT open secret files and fully cooperate with police and Courts? .....etc.
  13. 2 points
    I can clearly see that @Anna is doing her very best to go OFF TOPIC. She sees me as an easy target, which she thinks will distract people from the EARTHWIDE CHILD ABUSE within the JW ORGANISATION. She also tries to pretend that it is all about ABUSE IN THE PAST. Not true of course as many recent cases seem to be coming to light. And those victims from the past 50 years are still suffering. It's a lifetime thing, it does not go away. Does anyone have a follow up on the English translation of the BLUE LETTERS topic ? It might just add a bit more fuel to the fire By the way Anna it seems to have been proven that Elders deliberately destroy 'notes' / paperwork about Child Abuse accusations, so that when Police ask for the evidence it's 'no longer available'. So I would not go and warn the elders anyway. Why would i want to give them chance to destroy evidence ? If I did take any action it would be to go directly to the Police, but it is doubtful that I will.
  14. 2 points
    Proper context from who's viewpoint Kid ? Once again you place the GB on high. And it was once the belief that ALL ANOINTED WERE THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE. So tell me what scriptures suddenly told your GB that the rest of the ANOINTED are now less important than the GB ? If you rely on your GB and do not rely on God's word and prayer to God through Jesus Christ, then you are in fact SERVING YOUR GB. Quote : Every Christian fellow in the body of Christ obeys God's commandments as instructed by Christ.' So where in the Bible does Christ tell anyone to serve the GB of JW Org ? The main issue here is that the GB of JW Org have proved themselves to be the WICKED SLAVE CLASS so should not be served by anyone.
  15. 2 points
    You do say some stupid things Kid. I never once said the GB or JW Org wrote the Bible. BUT they did translate it to suit their own use, and they DO MISUSE SCRIPTURE that was meant for our instruction, guidance and protection. The GB make up rules for disfellowshipping. They do not only use the instruction from the scriptures, such as you have quoted above, but the GB add their own interpretations to it. If they in fact used the principal from the instruction as mentioned above, then there would be far fewer pedophiles in the JW org.... Each one that was found would be removed, handed over to the local authorities/police, and not hidden in the Org. One thing you seem to have overlooked though is this is an Anointed man (Paul ) talking to other Anointed men. This brings us back to the perfection of the Anointed that I mentioned earlier. It also confirms to me that the Bible is written for the Anointed not for the Earthly class. The TRUE Anointed would know how to use the scriptures properly. Now in the JW congregations the Elders and Circuit Overseers or equivalent are mostly not of the Anointed, and therefore are not qualified to do the judging. And when it is a crime that has been committed then it becomes a legal matter not a spiritual one. Hence it should be immediately handed over to the legal authorities, 'that stand in place by God Himself, to do God's will in dealing with such matters, as mentioned in God's written word. As for those 'in the body of Christ', they are the TRUE ANOINTED, NOT THE GB of JW Org.
  16. 2 points
    If it is so as this declaration No 10 say, than WHY elders must contact Legal Department first on how this purely religious proceeding must continue. ?? How it is possible that mature elders can not decide (independently, according to their so called "Bible-educated" conscience or better - according to their Natural God given Conscience) how first thing, in benefit for the victim, is that POLICE have to secure PHYSICAL SAFETY FOR VICTIM, and then after this first step or parallel to this very first move that must been done, is SPIRITUAL SAFETY for victim that this so called "mature men" have to provide. According to your brother Asch in his deposition, he made this CLEAR DISTINCTION about PHYSICAL SAFETY and SPIRITUAL SAFETY and how WT GB and their Lawyers defending themselves and their money and their Organizational Honor. Your respond on John's post is how things he mentioned is from past, in 1980 es. ARC is from 2015 and WT elders in Australia are very bad role model as those elders from 1980 period. No progress was made in benefit for victims. All because of money and WTJWorg Corporation Public Picture. Face the TRUTH and Reality please!
  17. 1 point
    @BillyTheKid46 made some statements in another thread that claimed the necessity of demonstrating the difference between early Zion's Watch Tower views and current Watchtower views. He says it was a totally different understanding with the same goal of 1914: To get a fair context of the discussion, I'll show the entire relevant portions of each response from the original topic here: The above response from BillyTheKid was because @JOHN BUTLER brought up some speculation that Armageddon is likely far off, and I mentioned the following: After BillyTheKid's response to that, already shown at the top of this post, I said: To that @BillyTheKid46 responded: I have not yet responded to BillyTheKid's other points, which I may attempt to do here. But I did respond to his statement, "This is why there is a difference between Jesus presences in 1874 to that of enthronement, taking his rightful seat in 1914." To which BillyTheKid responded: And BilyTheKid also responded in another post: Hopefully, I'll get a chance respond to BillyTheKid here, and to understand how he thinks we should understand the idea that there was more than one 1260, among many other points made.
  18. 1 point
    Yes. No argument against that.
  19. 1 point
    only if forced by the law of the land, otherwise.....SHHhhhhhhhh don't tell anyone because it will make jehovah sad.
  20. 1 point
    Yes. This goes for both, the survivor/victim and those who are asked to handle the situation.
  21. 1 point
    Defending the weaker from stronger in any form, spiritual or physical is obligation to all, inside or outside the JW community. Bible is full of examples where crude force is allowed to protect other person !!!!!!!!!!! ... to safe animals too. This short part in video is example how sometimes people on position and their lawyers want to avoid the truth and responsibility. ARC testimonies repeated this issue and showed how Australian elder have no interest to help children outside his congregation if pedophile is in their midst. Shameful. Anna, please do stop to protect those who are not protecting the weakest in society (JW society or outside)!
  22. 1 point
    The GB twist scripture to create doctrine. For not accepting doctrine outside of God's Word , I was disfellowshipped, it wasn’t for rejecting the Word of God. Does it stop with the apostles? Should the rest of the Temple of God (anointed Body of Christ) begin obeying uninspired men and their false priesthood? It is clear that this is evidence of a "wicked slave" that "beats" down his fellow slaves into submissiveness. Matt 24:48-51 The entire congregation is under their thumb. If the anointed priesthood are not used, then how can the organization call itself Zion? As John Butler said, "The TRUE Anointed (Temple stones,1 Cor 3:16,17) would know how to use the scriptures properly. " They would use the law written on their heart to judge and teach in righteousness. Many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. Isa 2:3 If faithful, they will reigning “kings”. Rev 5:9,10 Who is King of Kings? Rev 19:16 You are expecting others to replace the Head of the Body – Christ. There is no substitute leader over the anointed ones. Yet, an anointed "leader" of true teachings of Christ does not expect obedience to them, but to the Word. This is how the “saints will judge the world” – not by their opinion, but the Word, the decrees of God fulfilled in Christ, that issues from their hearts. Heb 4:12; 8:10-12 They are to teach the Word of God which leads/directs people to the Word, - to Christ and the Father. Mal 2:7; John 13:20 This is how they are found to be "faithful and discreet" when Jesus returns. Matt 25:23 This is only possible if the same “living water” from Christ fills their heart. Any deviance from Christ’s teachings, such as doctrine of men, is blasphemy. It is also blasphemy that Christ’s priests/kings are to obey those not anointed and those who speak falsehoods, which is failed doctrine and “empty words”. Eph 5:6; Matt 7:15-20 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me. John 7:16 Matt 7:24-26; 10:12-15; 12:36,37; 19:11; John 7:38, etc. If you support others to rule over the anointed, you support spiritual “Gentiles” ruling over spiritual “Jews”/”Israel” – God’s possession. You support the Man of Lawlessness who has “set himself up” in the Temple of God. 2 Thess 2:3,4,7; Rev 11:1-3; Matt 24:14-16 I do hope you can see this.
  23. 1 point
  24. 1 point
    If i can recall this post of John about this information (correct me if it is wrong) John has heard that from other person. So now, we here are in some similar, strange position, because we heard, about crime that has happened, from John. I think how some scientific discipline, like sociology and psychology, could explain what happens inside people in such situations we talking about. Why do we react or not react? How do we react? Why we do not want to interfere in someone else's problems? Why it easier to be passive and to go on other side? .... etc.
  25. 1 point
    It most certainly does negate and or replace the criminal aspect if they do not take it to the police. They are then an accomplice to covering up abuse. Why do you think there are so many lawsuits going on right now? Are you just playing dumb or are you serious? I think you are trying to make this seem silly and petty, when in fact it is far from it. Children are being raped and molested, and this org and its supporters of "WT policy" are covering it up and refusing to protect the victims and or future victims. Was it considered lies by the devil or Satan's media/fake news when this was/is going on within the Catholic church and jws talked about it then?
  26. 1 point
    Terminology: judicial committee and reinstated are clearly, plainly Corporational words in WTJworg inc. Religion. The Bible calls people to forgive each other's sins. The Bible invites us to pray to God in this way: and forgive us our debts (sins), as we also have forgiven our debtors. By MESSAGE in Lord's Prayer, God is very willful to forgive all sins to people, .... in fact he has already done that, even before your birthday. By Jesus words, God is more interested for another thing, that people forgiving each other. Because Jesus speaks of a precondition; "Forgive your neighbor" ... then God will look at you mercifully too. If we confess our sins, [God] is faithful and righteous so as to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” “Openly confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may get healed.” By this Bible logic in this 3 places it is not needed to give confess and/or ask for forgiveness from some Legal Religious Body. Ones "secret sin" will be "forgiven" if you in your mind and heart "confess" it to God, not to men. Another thing is our psychological side and our inside need to "tell someone" about our inside soul problem and turmoil. "Sin" aka injustice that ones have done to his neighbor is also separate thing. If you are aware of your bad act toward somebody around you, then you must go to this person who you offend, say bad words, done bad or evil thing. You must confess and ask forgiveness FROM HIM.
  27. 1 point
    Yes - the age of the creation is a different matter to the sudden appearance of all animals which are fully formed. It is two separate subjects. Evolutionists usually ignore the Cambrian explosion and do not talk about it.
  28. 1 point
    Arauna

    Fossils are not millions of years old

    If you really know your chemistry and how things work you can calculate the rate of radiation buildup... especially if you know what you are looking for... Most scientists do not believe the bible so they do not even try. My brother has a special talent for discovering what a new molecule looks like - hence his profession of researching new poisons (on the plants in Africa which often kill animals). This of course sent him to jail because he refused to help the government kill dissidents by providing them with unknown/new poisons which he isolated and described the structures of. I must add my brother has no ego - he is talented but does not look for any kind of recognition at all - so he is not in search of some holy grail - he just loves knowledge and the bible. I We still have this curse on the ground and this produces weeds and unwanted elements which makes it hard to produce food. But - weeds and overgrowth and warmth do not affect animals - only the livelihood of humans So with a water band the animals will have been OK, big and fat and the pollution was not yet what it is today. What is significant in all of this is that they had never seen a rainbow before - so after the flood there was definitely a difference in the composition of the atmosphere to view a rainbow for the first time. Also - the grapes will have produced more sugar than before the flood with the stronger, unfiltered sun. Hence the event that Noah may have underestimated the amount of alcohol in his wine (not the same as before). Wine people know that stronger sunlight gives more sugar in grapes .... and hence more alcohol when fermented. So there are quite a few indications in the bible that things changed after the flood. For me the sedimentary layers which came during the flood are full of animals that could have lived until the flood.... but for this information I guess we have to wait until after Armageddon to find out.
  29. 1 point
    JW Insider

    Fossils are not millions of years old

    I should add that some scientists who study these things agree that the time when dinosaurs and other contemporary animals and plants were on earth was a time when the atmosphere was very thick and heavy, atmospheric pressure at the earth's surface was much higher than now, and water vapor must have filled the air so that the sun's energy was fairly equally diffused, and those "thermals" that large birds seem to "float" on would have been a constant phenomenon. Some interesting thoughts on the pterosaurs and their ability to fly are found here:
      Hello guest!
    But pressure alone would not explain it, because continuous flight without flapping is really a matter of the difference in pressure above and below the wing, creating lower pressure above the wing; it's therefore not a factor enhanced by higher pressure above the wing. And the entire book of several chapters, found here, provides some very interesting reading as an attempt to bring in a lot of available evidence on the topic.
      Hello guest!
    The book is well done from a didactic point of view, and the link above is only to chapter 2: The Paradox of Large Dinosaurs and Flying Pterosaurs. Chapter 3 is called, The Science of Flight and the Paradox of Flying Pterosaurs. The book should be read at least through Chapter 7, but the book gets uncomfortably "evolutionary" after that until the end at chapter 11. The last chapter (11) is about the age of fossils, however, tying back to the subject.
  30. 1 point
    Actually there are fossils in the remotest parts of the earth that are now totally uninhabitable areas. To be clearer, I should have said that the idea that the earth was a temperate, tropical climate just before the time of the Flood is also unprovable. It very well may have been temperate and tropical for many thousands of years, or even for many millions of years. However, without accepting the methods of dating the various eras and eons on earth, we can't tell if this state of climate was true in all parts of the earth at the same time. We can only theorize. And it might be a very good theory. When Genesis describes Adam and Eve leaving the Garden of Eden, it describes an immediate time of hardship in planting and cultivation, trying to eke out produce amidst thorns and thistles. This is not the state of affairs usually associated with a temperate and tropical climate and it was likely meant for a time more than 1500 years before the time of Noah. (Genesis 3:17-19) 17 And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and ate from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. 18 It will grow thorns and thistles for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” It's a very common claim that has been theorized by fundamentalist authors for many years. And it might be true, but is still only a theory. I would love to be able to communicate with your brother, but no paper can "prove" anything about radiation levels before and after the Flood. Nor can anyone determine a specific reason for the sudden 90% drop in human lifespans. That's interesting, but it's still not possible to use the word "prove" even when matching a formula to the Biblical time period. It's a kind of holy grail for scientists. When working from one set of "true" non-quantum assumptions you can get one good answer, and when you work from a set of "true" quantum assumptions you get another good, sensible answer. The problem is that those answers are several orders of magnitude apart from each other. Other methods of mixing the math from the small scale energies of the electro-magnetic world and trying to map them to the large scale energies from the the gravitational space-time world will devolve into string theories. Not just one string theory, but several different string theories, some of which result in a "necessary" postulation of several simultaneous universes. So there really is no string theory, or at least it has gotten nowhere. My son graduated from Harvard with a degree in theoretical physics (also music) and we have discussions about this quite often, and of course it's over my head. But he claims that many scientists have tried it, even attempting to use the ideas to "prove for God" as the source of the dynamic energies that would explain dark matter, and poorly understood energies -- even gravity itself. You'll notice that the WTS does not teach us that this condition lasted until the Flood, implying that it is likely it was a condition limited to the context (day 3) in the creation account summary of Genesis 2. *** it-2 p. 728 Rain *** At an early point in the history of the preparation of the earth, “God had not made it rain upon the earth,” but “a mist would go up from the earth and it watered the entire surface of the ground.” The time referred to is evidently early on the third creative “day,” before vegetation appeared I'm sure you are aware, as you have already mentioned several of these points, but for those who don't know that these same theories have been common in Christendom for many years, one need only look at various commentaries of Genesis. Here's some excerpts from one example, which will take up the rest of the post:
      Hello guest!
    . . . Water Vapor Canopy . . . Astronomer Donald B. DeYoung lists the arguments in favor of a water vapor canopy. . . .
  31. 1 point
    Should watch the Australian royal commission on child sex abuse within JWs victims which is available online and you will see first hand how our procedures and everything is handle within the organization, you will be shocked. It has been some years since then and we have heard nothing from it and no 1 policy changed even though many several recommendations were given by the Australian commission to be changed.
  32. 1 point
    Anna, So you are not going to give your answer, and instead regurgitate what the wt says. Did you notice that nothing is said of taking this "serious sin" to the police, when in fact it is a serious crime?
  33. 1 point
    You really don't want to listen do you. The Elders know about the situation. The Elders have the names of both parties concerned. I don't have the name of the victim. Now if what you say is true, the Elders would have already informed the Police right ? No, i don't think so. And i cannot talk to the accused or the Elders as I have left the org and not one of the 120 / 130 people will talk to me. Now i haven't told people not to talk to me, so it's their fault if I cannot warn them. I left the Org so that i could warn people, but those congregants have chosen of their own free will (because of fear of punishment) not to talk to me. So i no longer feel responsible. Nearly 12 pm here in England, so good night to you.
  34. 1 point
    Why cant the policy state to take it to the police first? Who is more trained to handle these types of situations? Elders/police?
  35. 1 point
  36. 1 point
    @BillyTheKid46 Quote : This is why the GB adheres to scripture without confusing its understanding like many here. That is a good laugh ! Thanks Kid. Like the two witness rule used in Child Abuse cases, but not used in Fornication accusations. And the fact that a person has to agree to 'serve' the Org when they get baptised. Kid you are completely blind.
  37. 1 point
    Oops. If they expect obedience from their anointed “brothers”, they certainly have “substituted” themselves for Christ, robbing the lowly insignificant anointed of their ability to listen only to Christ. The GB have made it very clear by their Bible translation, using the word "substitute" twice, for emphasis. NWT 2 Cor 5:20 Since they claim to be the only "faithful and discreet slave", who other than themselves can "substitute" for Christ? Matt 24:48-51 In reality, no one. No one can substitute as the Head of the anointed Body of Christ. Another oops. Their false “priesthood”, the elder body, do just that. Haven't you heard of a "judicial committee"? They have the power to kick someone out as a sinner, and feel qualified to discern that God has forgiven a sinner, to allow them back in the congregation. Where have you been?
  38. 0 points
    This is irrelevant. You are making the mistake of mixing two separate things together. You do not need two witnesses to make a report to the police. This is only for congregational action. 9. Elders never require victims of child abuse to present their accusation in the presence of the alleged abuser. However, victims who are now adults may do so, if they wish. In addition, victims can be accompanied by a confidant of either gender for moral support when presenting their accusation to the elders. If a victim prefers, the accusation can be submitted in the form of a written statement No, and they never will because it is not scriptural. Yes, WT always hands over any necessary confidential documentation pertaining to a case. WT will not hand over confidential documentation that has nothing to do with a specific case. The supreme court agreed with WT on that. (Any $4,000 fines per day were reversed and removed).
  39. 0 points
    bah, I do not believe you. I believe you would talk to elders and then keep quiet so that you don't make Jehovah sad. That's policy, right?




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