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Showing content with the highest reputation on 12/01/2019 in all areas

  1. 3 points
    Thanks for those references. I obviously must have read some of them, especially the ones from the 80's and I am aware that our mothers would say we would never go to school, that Armageddon would be here by then. This was nothing new to me since we were saying this almost since the founding of the JWS. What I was questioning was the specific date 2000. That Armageddon would come in that year, in the same way as was insinuated for 1975. "Within the 20th Century" is open, and just because 15 year old Samuel "visualizes something happening in 2000" doesn't mean we had to think it will happen exactly then, lol. Samuel is 48 today, probably with kids, maybe a grandad, and probably still a JW. I know plenty of people who visualized something happening, and nothing happened, and they are still visualizing it. But, everyone in their right mind yearns for good things, and Jesus told his followers to "keep on the watch" and Peter "await and keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah". As for the society setting specific dates for the end, 1925 sticks in my mind, for which Rutherford apologized, and 1975, which was not official anyway. And 1914 of course....
  2. 2 points
  3. 2 points
    Anna

    Frederick Franz

    Anyone who wishes to share their opinions, personal experiences, (or the experiences of others) they had with Fred Franz, can do so here!
  4. 2 points
    I have some time today ... so i’m moving a few posts not related to the title of the topic
  5. 2 points
    admin

    Wham! - Last Christmas

    Last Christmas I gave you my heart But the very next day you gave it away. This year To save me from tears I'll give it to someone special. Last Christmas I gave you my heart But the very next day you gave it away. This year To save me from tears I'll give it to someone special. Once bitten and twice shy I keep my distance But you still catch my eye. Tell me, baby, Do you recognize me? Well, It's been a year, It doesn't surprise me (Merry Christmas) I wrapped it up and sent it With a note saying, "I love you," I meant it Now I know what a fool I've been. But if you kissed me now I know you'd fool me again. Last Christmas I gave you my heart But the very next day you gave it away. This year To save me from tears I'll give it to someone special. Last Christmas I gave you my heart But the very next day you gave it away. This year To save me from tears I'll give it to someone special. Oh, oh, baby. A crowded room, Friends with tired eyes. I'm hiding from you And your soul of ice. My god I thought you were someone to rely on. Me? I guess I was a shoulder to cry on. A face on a lover with a fire in his heart. A man under cover but you tore me apart, ooh-hoo. Now I've found a real love, you'll never fool me again. Last Christmas I gave you my heart But the very next day you gave it away. This year To save me from tears I'll give it to someone special. Last Christmas I gave you my heart But the very next day you gave it away. This year To save me from tears I'll give it to someone special. A face on a lover with a fire in his heart (I gave you my heart) A man under cover but you tore him apart Maybe next year I'll give it to someone I'll give it to someone special. Special... Someone...
  6. 2 points
  7. 2 points
    James Thomas Rook Jr. said: I suspect that this is true in all other language translations. I completely agree -- in principle. In practice, with the Bible we're dealing with three dead languages, so there exist no fluent speakers. Nevertheless, I think competent scholars still do a pretty good job of translating. That's esecially so when independent scholars arrive at essentially the same translations. Pretty spotty, I expect.
  8. 1 point
    GB members are responsible not only about CSA cases in Organization, but also for many misconceptions on doctrinal matters and interpretations of Bible. For example, how old humans are. Before few moments TV program on one channel giving documentary about archaeological research in Emirates and how they found place where people lived, not before 10.000 years as they thought previously, but before 125.000 years. Until that moment my JW wife looking with interest on program, but after this "detail" she said, "now they are boring" and switched program on other channel :))))
  9. 1 point
    She had not been alone in that reasoning. My wife' mother gave same lesson to her ;))) Imagine how many miles Croatia and your country have distance, but The Same Teaching moves around heads of JW's. Tell me someone, please, how is possible that some individual in USA start to make gossips about 1975 and how that wrong idea ended in one little town in one communist Balkan state ??? :))))) Have in mind how we talking about generation borne in 1961. In 1968/69 they start to go to Grammar school. Here we have 8 years (you have 10) of this school. And 1975 is so close .... There is no chance to finish school before 1975 Armagedon :))))) Definition of dogmatism 1: the expression of an opinion or belief as if it were a fact : positiveness in assertion of opinion especially when unwarranted or arrogant 2: a viewpoint or system of ideas based on insufficiently examined premises Merriam Webster source stating your opinions in a strong way and not accepting anyone else's opinions: Cambridge source Every ideology we facing is dogmatic !!
  10. 1 point
    Anna said: I was taught the same thing in the late 1960s about 1975. I don't believe I said in 2000, but by 2000. If not, that's what I should have said, because that's what the first two references explicitly say: "a work that would be completed in our century" and "within our twentieth century, the "battle in the day of Jehovah" will begin". Can't get any clearer than that. "Insinuated" is the wrong word for what those charlatans did. Nope, it's very specific. "Within the decade ending in 2020 Britain will be out of the EU." Nothing open about that. Two things: Samuel didn't think this up by himself -- the Society taught him. The Society puts 'experiences' like that in its publications for a reason -- to tell JWs what they ought to be thinking. You keep forgetting what Jesus warned his followers: do not follow anyone who claims to represent him and God, and says "the due time for the end has approached". That's what he meant by "keep on the watch", because his followers could not possibly know in advance when the end had approached. He even said,"if you think you know -- that's not it!" Sure, after proclaiming every which way that it was God's prediction not his. Of course it was. Did you read the links I gave you? Which shows that the Bible Students under Russell did not have God's holy spirit guiding them, even though they claimed they did. Russell even said, using the royal "we": "These are God's dates, not ours."
  11. 1 point
    What a beautiful combination .... piano and cello together.... Love how this couple brings them together.... cello playing the melody and some of the early percussion.
  12. 1 point
    I CAN explain it all ... I have been watching, and studying for more than 50 years. I try NOT to think like, or be, a professional child. I do NOT think I have enough "spirit" to judge anyone .... in the sense of somehow punishing them. My only judgement of "them" is to avoid and ignore "them" ... I do enjoy the option of being able to enforce my preferences, if necessary. ...which most people might consider a blessing.
  13. 1 point
    I never read a direct prediction that the end would come in 2000. Any case, we are supposed to be ready ALL the time because it will come as thief in the night. The other comparison is to a pregnant woman..... she knows the event is eminent but does not know the hour. Did the bible not warn that people will scoff and say: where is it ? ....and when they do not expect it the events will suddenly follow each other .....rapidly one will see prophecies being fulfilled. I have no doubt in my mind that it is getting closer every day that passes. We are seeing the storm clouds rolling in on several sides. My brother told me that they had temperatures if 53.2 Celsius in south Africa..... and the hight of the summer will only be in February - in 3 months. Farmers have not planted. Governments are keeping quiet about crop failures, unprecedented ocean destruction due to warm sea currents and many other problems. The dollar and stable stockmarket is the main concern. Keep everyone in the dark until the biosphere collapses. Growing hate between the " iron and clay" elements in most western governments - irreconcileable to where it is almost cold civil war. Maneuvering behind the scenes of the UN..... 176 nations have signed up on the 3 agreements - a good indication of where we are in the stream of time. Surveillance and control of powerful private global companies, super artificial intelligence, CRISPR software on sale for anyone who wants to use it, CHina and Russia have more and more ports and other mineral resources under their control and the growth of atheism, immorality (LGBTQ etc) and other devastating philosophies...... as well as a rise in spiritistic religions...... the main one in the UN - theosophy- are escalating. One thing for sure - the world is not growing better as some are saying - but worse as each day passes. A Christian genocide is ongoing in middle east and north Africa. No one cares about this because the UN human rights organization has been taken over by Muslim countries who vote each other in. Countries with the worst human rights sitting in top positions. Well.... I can go on..... and on.... Laugh on and on..... suddenly the mockery will turn into gnashing of teeth in anger....
  14. 1 point
    This playing with cups thing is somehow extremely popular with youth culture.... I like how she used it in this song. The music video must have been extremely expensive to make. I do like the message and the ending.
  15. 1 point
  16. 1 point
  17. 1 point
  18. 1 point
    Anna said: It's gross deception. Why? Because it deliberately gives a completely false picture of what the Bible Students said. That's like saying the Nazi's tried hard not to be dogmatic about Nazism, but didn't always succeed. Tell me if the statements quoted below about 1918 and 1920 are dogmatic or not. The Finished Mystery, 1917, pages 62, 64, said with great authority: << The data presented in comments on Rev. 1:1... prove that the Spring of 1918 will bring upon Christendom a spasm of anguish greater even than that experienced in the Fall of 1914. The awakening of the sleeping saints, A.D. 1878, was just half way (three and one-half years each way) between the beginning of the Times of Restitution in 1874 and the close of the High Calling in 1881. Our proposition is that the glorification of the Little Flock in the Spring of 1918 A.D. will be half way (three and one-half years each way) between the close of the Gentile Times and the close of the Heavenly Way, A.D. 1921. >> These predictions failed. More forceful language was used in the predictions of a terrible destruction due to come on Christendom's churches and their members in 1918, with their dead bodies strewn about unburied. Pages 484-485 said: << Also, in the year 1918, when God destroys the churches wholesale and the church members by millions, it shall be that any that escape shall come to the works of Pastor Russell to learn the meaning of the downfall of "Christianity." >> Page 513 said: << In the year 1918, when Christendom shall go down as a system to oblivion.... God will cause the nations to shake with gigantic revolutions. >> The book also predicted stupendous events for 1920. On page 258 it said: << Even the republics will disappear in the fall of 1920... Every kingdom of earth will pass away, be swallowed up in anarchy... The three days in which Pharaoh's host pursued the Israelites into the wilderness represent the three years from 1917 to 1920 at which time all of Pharaoh's messengers will be swallowed up in the sea of anarchy. >> On page 542 it said: << As the fleshly-minded apostates from Christianity, siding with the radicals and revolutionaries, will rejoice at the inheritance of desolation that will be Christendom's after 1918, so will God do to the successful revolutionary movement; it shall be utterly desolated, "even all of it." Not one vestige of it shall survive the ravages of world-wide all-embracing anarchy, in the fall of 1920. >> How about the following statements about 1925? Were they dogmatic or not? The book Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920 Edition, said on pages 89-90: << . . . we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old . . . >> The May 15, 1922 Watch Tower said: << We have no doubt whatever in regard to the chronology relating to the dates of 1874, 1914, 1918, and 1925. It was on this line of reckoning that the dates 1874, 1914, and 1918 were located; and the Lord has placed the stamp of his seal upon 1914 and 1918 beyond any possibility of erasure. What further evidence do we need? Using this same measuring line... it is an easy matter to locate 1925, probably in the fall, for the beginning of the antitypical jubilee. There can be no more question about 1925 than there was about 1914. >> I could go on with this for a long time, but here's the link on this that I already gave you: https://critiquesonthewatchtower.org/old-articles/2006/02/part-3-statements-concerning-1918-1925.html Not dogmatic? Please! The split is more like 90-10 when it came to anything to do with the Gentile Times stuff the Proclaimers book was discussing. Believe what you like. Quotes like the above say different. Time to go beddie-bye.
  19. 1 point
    Not necessarily. That's a rough guide, is all. The best guide, I think, is the consensus of competent scholars over a long period of time. Even then, no one can be sure that we really possess the original manuscripts, because there are many examples where, for example, the Masoretic text differs significantly from the LXX, which many argue is based on an older and more authentic Hebrew text. Of course, if a bona fide ancient Hebrew text from 300 BCE or earlier is found, that would throw a big monkey wrench into Biblical textual criticism.
  20. 1 point
  21. 1 point
    TrueTomHarley said: Again we witness Orwellian crimestop. The point, Einstein, is that these JWs did not make this nonsense up for themselves, but read the predictions for 2000 in Watchtower publications. Do a little looking on the jwfacts website and you'll find some quotes. Or read some in my response to Anna above. Yes indeed. That paragon of scholastic aptitude gets all of the Real Soon Now nonsense from the Watchtower Society. Are you really this stupid? 1941, 1975, 2000 and Real Soon Now are certainly within peoples' lifetimes. 1975 is NOT arguable, as the links I posted prove. Unfortunately, JW leaders' counsel on that has often been accompanied by predictions of specific years to watch out for: 1914, 1918, 1920, 1925, 1941, 1975, 2000. We continue to witness Orwellian crimestop. TrueTomHarley said: I did not start this -- others did. As the criticisms of fundamental JW beliefs pile up, JW apologists pull out all the stops to avoid discussion. Here we see TTH sticking his fingers in his ears, shouting La-la-la-la-la! and doing his best to sidestep and deflect issues that show his cult leaders in a truly bad light. TrueTomHarley said: Nonsense. The fact is that I'm quite objective about these things, and as a result have strongly disagreed with some critics of the NWT. You're simply too stupid to understand that, as evidenced by your comments below: Wrong on both counts. A classic instance of the fallacy known as The False Dilemma. So what? Franz was insane but brilliant. A sort of idiot savant of religion. Such people are capable of feats far beyond those of mortal men.
  22. 1 point
    I am still of the opinion that when translating from ENGLISH, to another language, a person MUST be a fluent EXPERT at both languages, and have lived in areas where both are spoken extensively, and also have a DEEP knowledge of the history and culture of both places, AND have a potload of plain old common sense .... which is not all that common. I suspect that this is true in all other language translations. We have Bible translations in over a thousand languages (...or is it just some Bible literature?) ... but how good are those translations? The Polish people fought the Nazi tanks on horses, with horse drawn artillery, and they acquitted themselves magnificently ... but it was no contest, and they lost miserably. ..... same thing.
  23. 1 point
    I think how wording in magazine is something as .... to the end of 20th century. This including the year 2000 :))
  24. 1 point
    James Thomas Rook Jr. said: Well -- sometimes. Indeed -- something that high-control-group leaders like the JW Governing Body always forget. They dictate their version of "a good conscience" to the group members and boot out all who disagree. Thus, members either adopt the leaders' conscience, or they shut up.
  25. 1 point
    Srecko Sostar said: To be more precise, interpretations of 'yohm' are such personal interpretations. The translation itself is not much open to discussion, as virtually all Bible translations use "day". Quite so. The original NWT Committee was comprised mostly of gophers like Albert Schroeder who did busy-work like making cross references. A Greek name George Gangas helped a bit with the Greek translation, but he had no education, and his Greek was modern Greek, not 1st century Greek. The only one who more or less knew what he was doing was Fred Franz, who had a year or two of Greek in college before he joined the Bible Students, but had no education at all in Hebrew. He was entirely self-taught in Hebrew. It seems that much of Franz's knowledge of Hebrew came from looking up words in Hebrew-English lexicons and looking at many Bible translations. He also elicited help from a scholarly Jew living in Brooklyn, and from at least one recognized Bible scholar (Goodspeed?) who produced his own partial Bible translation. In 1994 I met one other actual WTS scholar who seemed competent, but of course he had nothing to do with the original New World Translation. He died about 20 years ago. He was a Romanian named John Albu, who immigrated to the U.S. around 1970, and quickly became a JW, and soon an "anointed one". He soon joined Bethel and worked on translation and chronology stuff. He told me that he was educated in Europe in Hebrew, Greek and other languages. Eventually serious health issues forced him out of Bethel, but he continued to work closely with the Writing Staff. He worked as a doorman for a hotel in Manhattan. It's fairly certain that Albu did much of the research that resulted in the infamous chapter 14 of the 1981 WTS book "Let Your Kingdom Come", written by GB member Lloyd Barry. He told me that part of the reason he became a JW was that the NWT was so fabulously accurate. I suspect that Franz and Albu would strongly object to the new NWT. While it's far more readable in many areas, it violates Franz's dictum that the NWT should be literal to a fault, being more of a "dynamic translation" in the spirit of the New International Version. Of course, Freddie always skewed his translations in favor of pre-existing Watchtower doctrine, sometimes stretching Hebrew and Greek meanings to their limits, and occasionally past those limits. My own opinion, for what it's worth, is that on the whole both versions of the NWT are translationally at least as accurate as the best other translations. In a handful of cases I think it's more accurate than most. They all have inaccuracies and various warts, but in different areas. Much of the criticism of the NWT comes from Christian scholars who are obligated by their religions to argue in favor of doctrines like the Trinity, and so often use really bad arguments to criticize the NWT. I think that Fred Franz was a brilliant but insane man who fell into C. T. Russell's cult at an early age and never recovered.
  26. 1 point
    I heard several JWs in the 1980s talking about zebras. Coming from the Master of Rationality, I’d say that this bit of “evidence” is rather weak. Another bit of proof! It IS true that, as they were dropping the 1999 New Year’s Eve ball in Times Square, the brothers were dropping an identical one at Bethel: “Four...three....two....one....IT’S THE NEW SYSTEM!!!! ......Oh.....Still the same?.....nuts!” What is wrong with you? There is 1975 and only 1975 in anyone’s lifetime. And, as stated, even that one is arguable. You’re just steamed that there has not been counsel: “Remember, brothers, how Jesus said ‘Keep on the watch?’ He’s nuts. Fogedaboutit!” This speech is shocking! Who can listen to it? It is on a topic having nothing to do with the theme of this thread! How could you?! Put it up on another thread. Start one if there is not one already! Same with Alan with his dates. A completely different topic. Start a new thread! How can you people be so insensitive to the wishes of @The Librarian (that old hen)? She has made it clear that she wants order. We must be considerate of her and not just think of our own selfish desires. Otherwise she will throw everything in one master thread where the focused energy will cause it to explode like a supernova, blowing us all to Kingdom Come! (maybe that’s how The End comes about)
  27. 1 point
    Jehovah's Witnesses are a "happy people" in the midst of a hostile world.That happiness comes from the spiritual food and the way it is delivered to them. They are the only ones sharing their hope in God's Kingdom with all who will listen around the world. God has fed them well through Christ and the GB just he said they would eat while others go hungry, they would drink while others thirst. The individual witnesses have trust in the GB in Christ' hand. They have faith that just as Jehovah has spoken it will be.The world may hate us and assault our faith, but we see their hate and accusations as Satan's works of desperation. Today we wonder what the 3 demonic expressions of Rev.16:14 will prove to be. What signs will convince world leaders to turn on the religions of the world and destroy them. We are at the doorstep of discovery, the events are unstoppable. The opposers will cry out because of the realization that they were in reality fighters against God and all that is good in His eyes!
  28. 1 point
    No. You are preoccupied with this, and @4Jah2me lives and breathes it. But anyone else takes into account that there is no sizable organization on earth where CSA is not an issue, and no one that is not being sued—and in most cases, it is the leaders who are the abusers, something very rare with JWs, whose leaders are just accused of not reporting. Don’t misunderstand. I would rather that even that were not so, but it is considerably less serious than the leaders being the abusers. Most people can get their heads around that, out of 8 million people, not every single one will be blameless—especially since CSA is the scourge of the planet. Most people can also get their heads around clergy/penitent confidentiality, even if it is being legally reinterpreted, same as they have understood doctor/patient and lawyer/client privilege. I say the following only because I am addressing you, JTR, and I know your political leaning: Most ordinary Americans cannot quite get their heads around quid-pro-quo and if you explain it to them they are not quite sure why it is the huge deal Trump’s opponents make it out to be. We’ll see how it turns out. It may be something to the Witness organization’s lasting shame. Or perhaps a sense of proportion will, in time, assert itself. I do sometimes wish that there was a little more PR pushback from them. At present there is only a “we abhor child sexual abuse.” True enough, but in the face of court actions and vehement accusers, reporters go to where they can get a story. They can get one from accusers, but nothing specific from the defense, so they naturally gorge themselves on what the accusers have to say. That’s what reporters do. There is a limit to how much you can malign people. The decency of Jehovah’s Witnesses is well-attested. They are not flower-selling robe dressers but they are neighbors and coworkers. True, they eat Bible sandwiches, but they are honest, industrious, law-abiding, and harmless. Usually when there are laudable people, it is understood to be because of their leaders, not despite them. You hang out here too much, JTR, with people who are obsessed over this, in some cases people who are fervently hoping for an outcome detrimental to JWs. “Can’t see the forest for the trees” is the pit some fall into. Again, because of your political leanings—it is like media whipping people into a frenzy over Trump day after day, praying that every tiny development proves to be the torpedo that sinks him. From the moment of his election this has been the case—even from before his election. Close one Mueller investigation with not much to show for it, and immediately open another. At least half the country concludes that it is his enemies grasping at straws.
  29. 1 point
    4Jah2me

    Jehovah hates turkey

    On topic. I have honestly known JW's that will not have a proper cooked dinned on Christmas day, as it looks like a Christmas dinner. 'For fear of stumbling others'. They just have a salad or soup or some other small meal. I remember when working with some brothers years ago (they were builders) and i took a box of mince pies for lunch. Not one of those brothers would eat a mince pie It was soooooooooo funny. When i think of what wicked things go on in the JW org, and then some JW's worry about christmas day dinner and mince pies. Where is the common sense ? Where is the sense of balance ?
  30. 1 point
    admin

    Ponderisms

    1 I used to eat a lot of natural foods until I learned that most people die of natural causes. 2 There are two kinds of pedestrians: the quick and the dead. 3 Life is sexually transmitted. 4 Healthy is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die. 5 The only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth. 6 Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals dying of nothing. 7 Have you noticed since everyone has a camcorder these days no one talks about seeing UFOs like they used to? 8 Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again. 9 All of us could take a lesson from the weather. It pays no attention to criticism. 10 In the 60's, people took acid to make the world weird. Now the world is weird and people take Prozac to make it Normal . 11 How is it one careless match can start a forest fire, but it takes a whole box to start a campfire? 12 Who was the first person to look at a cow and say, 'I think I'll squeeze these dangly things and drink whatever Comes out'? 13 If Jimmy cracks corn and no one cares, why is there a song about him? 14 Why does your OB-GYN leave the room when you get undressed if they are going to look up there anyway? 15 If quizzes are quizzical, what are tests? 16 If corn oil is made from corn, and vegetable oil is made from vegetables, then what is baby oil made from? 17 Do illiterate people get the full effect of Alphabet Soup? 18 Does pushing the elevator button more than once make it arrive faster? 19 Why doesn't glue stick to the inside of the bottle? 20 Do you ever wonder why you gave me your email address?
  31. 1 point
    Sorry, that login was from my new mini iPad "2019" - Roland showed me my old passwords on my Laptop.... So I tried it next day and was happy, haha Soon more time, I hope it - Camping is over and other things too -- Importend is, the endtime is very near ! See us soon again
  32. 1 point
  33. 1 point
    admin

    Ponderisms

    ok... let's add to the list.
  34. 1 point
    Jack Ryan

    Ponderisms

  35. 1 point
  36. 1 point
  37. 1 point
  38. 1 point
    1507940147251-drlcss (1).mp4
  39. -1 points
    Private clubs can set any rules that they want. I have house rules that Ah wants, and have had quarrelsome guests removed by the police, so I did not have to shoot them, which would have involved a LOT of paperwork.
  40. -1 points
    It has been my experience being her for more than seven years that insulting ideas is O.K. ... but without OBVIOUS prior justification, insulting specific people is verboten, but even then, a great deal of patience is shown before the boom is dropped, and only after many warnings, hints and objections. It's THAT simple, but the clueless never get it. ... but to be fair, I have known BRILLIANT people, with Master and Doctors Degrees, that could not find their way out of a room, if a stripe was painted on the floor, with arrows. The clueless will NEVER "get it", because they have Narcissistic Personality Derangement which is a very real affliction ( look it up), and they are literally incapable of understanding the concept. They are no more capable of overcoming it than an amputee can grow new legs.
  41. -1 points
    The Librarian said to James Thomas Rook: You might look into the BB software that runs on this board: http://www.rationalskepticism.org/
  42. -1 points
    You do not fight a war with the army you WISH you had ... you fight with the army you HAVE! One characteristic of Narcissistic Personality Derangement is that EVERYTHING that is sub-optimum is someone else's fault. Be a sport ... look it up.
  43. -1 points
    James Thomas Rook Jr said: You seem to forget that when I use "hate and vitriol" it's always in the spirit of returning like for like. You know very well that I've never been 'nasty' or you or to Anna or certain other posters. Do you know why? On the other hand, TrueTomHarley and Arauna scream bloody murder when I give them back what they first gave me. Do you have different standards for me and them? If you actually wade through my responses to Arauna, you'll not only learn much, but you'll see her lies -- which I don't hesitate to point out -- her misrepresentations, her sidestepping and her hypocrisy. Same for TTH, to the extent that I bother with his overt nonsense any more. It seems to me that you expect me, an atheist, to be a better Christian than these clowns.
  44. -1 points
    TrueTomHarley said: Yet another dishonest sidestep, a clumsy red herring. Let's examine the relevant parts of the exchange, shall we? TTH: This is AlanF’s taunt, Witness. He has said it innumerable times and now Arauna has adopted it once or twice in her replies. Now, exactly what in your statement is "a very old expression, seldom heard anymore"? Plain old English? After that I wrote: <<<< The May 1, 1957 Watchtower said (p.274): << If we are to walk in the light of truth we must recognize not only Jehovah God as our Father but his organization as our mother. >> This makes for a truly excellent taunt because the idea expressed is so cultish. TrueTomHarley's comment that this is my taunt is true in the sense that I often use it to taunt braindead JWs, but I've used the quote several times in this thread and many times in old threads. TTH's failure to reveal what he clearly knows is the source is, as usual, thoroughly dishonest. >>>> So, TTH, exactly where in your latest post did you respond rationally to what I actually said? Obviously you did not; hence your red herring response. LOL! One of the JW organization's many myths its leaders promulgate. There are so many disproofs of this myth it's hard to count them.
  45. -1 points
    While that might be 'nice'..... for now you'll have to suffice with ... push too hard yourself and find out what triggers me to ban you.
  46. -1 points
    Rev 16:13,14 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.” 16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew ,Armageddon. I hope you are able to break down these scriptures to understand their identities. “kings of the earth” - Jesus tells us who they are and who must be alert to his coming: Rev 1:4-6 - John, to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. The “kings of the earth” are the anointed priests/kings. All the “kings”, rulers and authorities in the world do not belong to Christ, those who are part of his Body. 1 Cor chapter 12 And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.” Rev 5:9,10 1 Pet 2:5,9 – “Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light” In Revelation 16, Christ’s “kings of the earth” are “gathered” with those from the “whole world”, which is certainly true in the organization. The “demonic expressions” that come from the dragon (Satan), the beast (Rev 13:1) and the false prophet (Rev 13:11) “go out to”…the anointed “kings of the earth” and those with them from the world. The beast overcomes the anointed “kings” with blasphemies, making “war” against them, by using “demonic expressions”. Rev 13:6,7 - Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. The false prophet is another beast…“from the earth’ (Rev 13:11) meaning it/they are also kings of the earth, who once belonged to Christ. (1 Tim 4:1) And, false prophets are spiritual "harlots". (Rev 17:1,2) Just as Satan is depicted as a dragon beast; so too are any who adopt him as their “father” – the father of the lie. (Matt 12:34; 24:24) This false prophet has two (meaning “truth”, John 8:17) horns (horns represent kings) like a lamb, (John 1:29) signifying that it is none other than a false messiah/false christ, who purports to speak truth (Dan 11:27; Matt 24:24) WT refers to the Beast of Rev 13:1 as an organization, which is very true. The false prophet directs the beast/organization to slander the “kings of the earth”. Rev 13:11,12 It also “gives breath” to this “organization”/beast, creating a “spirit-directed” image. Rev 13:15 Do we have evidence that the anointed “kings of the earth” have been overcome/conquered with slander in the Watchtower organization? “ Representing the royal priesthood are appointed elders, who serve in positions of responsibility in congregations of Jehovah’s people around the earth. These men deserve our respect and wholehearted support, whether they are of the anointed or not. Why? Because, through his holy spirit, Jehovah has appointed the older men to their positions. Rather than challenge their authority, we truly appreciate our hardworking elders! W02 8/1 p.14 Do you notice that no scriptural backing was given for this decision? Only that the decision must not be challenged? Can you think of a time when God was ever okay with “foreigners/”Gentiles”, anyone other than His chosen priesthood to serve as priests? (the anointed are spiritual “Israel” Rom 2:28,29; Gal 3:29) The article where the WT quote is from, is one prime example. (Num chapter 16). Korah challenged God’s appointed priesthood and was killed. I am not surprised at the boldness the WT showed in linking two challenges against God’s appointed priesthood, past and present, in one article. It shows the GB’s ability to push their agenda, despite scriptural truth. It shows that JWs prefer to listen to men and not the word of God. 2 Chron 13:9 - "Have you not driven out the priests of the LORD, the sons of Aaron and the Levites, and made for yourselves priests like the peoples of [other] lands? Whoever comes to consecrate himself with a young bull and seven rams, even he may become a priest of [what are] no gods.” Ezek 44:6-9 - “Now say to the rebellious, to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “O house of Israel, let Us have no more of all your abominations. 7 When you brought in foreigners, uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in My sanctuary to defile it—My house—and when you offered My food, the fat and the blood, then they broke My covenant because of all your abominations. 8 And you have not kept charge of My holy things, but you have set others to keep charge of My sanctuary for you.” 9 Thus says the Lord God: “No foreigner, uncircumcised in heart or uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter My sanctuary, including any foreigner who is among the children of Israel. The beast of Rev 16:13 “blasphemes” God’s sanctuary. The anointed priesthood ARE that sanctuary/Temple of God. 1 Cor 3:16,17 – “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.” Eph 2:19-22 - "Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit." Since the anointed are “living stones” of God’s Temple, (1 Pet 2:5,9) and “Gentiles” have usurped their position as God’s priests, the elders are the “man of lawlessness” treading down God’s Temple - standing where they "do not belong". Mark 13:14; 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1,2 Rev 13:18 - Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666. Satan will produce plenty of visible signs to distract JWs and Christ’s “kings of the earth" from the true “battle” at hand. It is exactly what to expect from the Deceiver, and arch-enemy of Christ. Gen 3:15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.” And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon. Rev 16:15,16 Who Are the Kings of the Earth? Pearl Doxsey
  47. -1 points
    I'm already mocking you for your gullibility. Yes, the world has a lot of potentially fatal problems. But they have nothing to do with anything predicted by the Watchtower Society with regard to its ridiculous interpretations of Matthew, Mark, Luke, Revelation, Daniel, etc. for "the generation of 1914". Indeed, all those interpretations have already proved false. The 'world' may well end because of man-induced climate warming, but it will have nothing to do with "Bible based" JW predictions of "the end".
  48. -1 points
    John Paul said: Not until after many of his predictions for the years just prior to 1914 collapsed. Until then he published dogmatic claims like these in The Time Is At Hand (1889), pp. 76-77: << We present the Bible evidence proving that the full end of the times of the Gentiles, i.e., the full end of their lease of dominion, will be reached in A.D. 1914; and that that date will be the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men. At that date the Kingdom of God, for which our Lord taught us to pray, saying, "Thy Kingdom come," will have obtained full, universal control, and that it will then be "set up," or firmly established, in the earth, on the ruins of present institutions. It will prove that some time before the end of A.D. 1914 the last member of the divinely recognized Church of Christ, the "royal priesthood," "the body of Christ," will be glorified with the Head. It will prove that from that time forward Jerusalem shall no longer be trodden down of the Gentiles, but shall arise from the dust of divine disfavor, to honor; because the "Times of the Gentiles" will be fulfilled or completed. It will prove that the great "time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation," will reach its culmination in a world-wide reign of anarchy. It will prove that before that date God's Kingdom, organized in power, will be in the earth and then smite and crush the Gentile image (Dan. 2:34) -- and fully consume the power of these kings. Its own power and dominion will be established as fast as by its varied influences and agencies it crushes and scatters the "powers that be" -- civil and ecclesiastical -- iron and clay. >> And on pages 98-99: << True, it is expecting great things to claim, as we do, that within the coming twenty-six years all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved; but we are living in a special and peculiar time, the "Day of Jehovah," in which matters culminate quickly; and it is written, "A short work will the Lord make upon the earth.... In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished by the end of A.D. 1914. >> Many more such dogmatic statements could be quoted from Russell's book. The September 1 and 15, 1893 Watch Tower is quite revealing as to Russell's view of what would happen before 1914, and that he did not think his views were speculation of any sort. On pages 282-284 it said (p. 1581 of Reprints): << The question comes from many quarters: "Brother Russell, are you not possibly mistaken by a few years in your calculations, since you expect, upon Scriptural authority, that the great trouble will all be over by A.D. 1914, and that in its severity it will probably not reach us before A.D. 1906 to 1908? Is it not possible that the present financial trouble is the beginning of the great trouble?" We answer, No; we think there is no mistake. >> A number of times Russell clearly implied that he could not possibly be wrong. Zion's Watch Tower, July 15, 1894, said on page 226 (p. 1677 Reprints), under the subtitle "Can It Be Delayed Until 1914?": << Seventeen years ago people said, concerning the time features presented in MILLENIAL DAWN, They seem reasonable in many respects, but surely no such radical changes could occur between now and the close of 1914: if you had proved that they would come about in a century or two, it would seem much more probable. What changes have since occurred, and what velocity is gained daily? "The old is quickly passing and the new is coming in." Now, in view of recent labor troubles and threatened anarchy, our readers are writing to know if there may not be a mistake in the 1914 date. They say that they do not see how present conditions can hold out so long under the strain. We see no reason for changing the figures -- nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble. We see no reason for changing from our opinion expressed in the view presented in the WATCH TOWER of January 15, '92. We advise that it be read again. >> The January 15, 1892 Watch Tower said on page 19: << The Scriptures give unmistakable testimony to those who have full faith in its records, that there is a great time of trouble ahead of the present comparative calm in the world -- a trouble which will embroil all nations, overthrow all existing institutions, civil, social and religious, bring about a universal reign of anarchy and terror, and prostrate humanity in the very dust of despair, thus to make them ready to appreciate the power that will bring order out of that confusion and institute the new rule of righteousness. All this, the Scriptures show us, is to come to pass before the year 1914 (See MILLENNIAL DAWN, Vol. II, Chapter IV.) -- that is, within the next twenty-three years. >> The October 1, 1904 Zion's Watch Tower, on pages 296-8 (pp. 3436-8 Reprints) printed a letter from a man who pointed out that Russell's chronology conflicted with data given by Ptolemy's Canon, and that he understood that Russell's view of the Gentile times had changed. Russell responded at length, pointing out that changing his chronology by even one year would throw it completely out of whack. He emphasized his faith in his figures: << We know of no reason for changing a figure: to do so would spoil the harmonies and parallels so conspicuous between the Jewish and Gospel ages.... The brother seems to further misunderstand us to teach that no great trouble will come before October, 1914 A.D. This is incorrect: we expect the great trouble of Rev. 13:15-17 before that date. >> As 1914 approached Russell changed and toned down some of his opinions. The July 1, 1904 Watch Tower said, under the title "Universal Anarchy -- Just Before or After October, 1914 A.D.," on pages 197-8: << What seems at first glance the veriest trifle and wholly unrelated to the matter, has changed our conviction respecting the time when universal anarchy may be expected in accord with the prophetic numbers. We now expect that the anarchistic culmination of the great time of trouble which will precede the Millenial blessings will be after October, 1914, A.D. -- very speedily thereafter, in our opinion -- "in one hour," "suddenly," because "our forty years" harvest, ending October, 1914 A.D., should not be expected to include the awful period of anarchy which the Scriptures point out to be the fate of Christendom. >> Contrary to Russell's expectations the War ended in 1918 without being followed by worldwide Socialist revolution and anarchy. The last member of the Church of Christ had not been glorified, the city of Jerusalem was still trodden down by the Gentiles, the Kingdom of God had not crushed "the Gentile image," and the "new heavens and the new earth" could not be seen anywhere by trouble-tossed humanity. Not one of the seven predictions enumerated in The Time Is At Hand had come true. The book Light I, 1930, page 194, well described the effects of the failed predictions: << All of the Lord's people looked forward to 1914 with joyful expectation. When that time came and passed there was much disappointment, chagrin and mourning, and the Lord's people were greatly in reproach. They were ridiculed by the clergy and their allies in particular, and pointed to with scorn, because they had said so much about 1914, and what would come to pass, and their 'prophecies' had not been fulfilled. >> So, John Paul, your transparent excuses are seen for what they are. Of course it does. Russell taught that there was to be a grand "harvest" between 1874 and 1914. And of course, he made the false prediction that Jesus would begin visibly ruling in 1914. Which Russell did not predict. The rest of your excuses have been shown up for what they are -- deceptive attempts to excuse false prophecies made by the founder of the Watchtower Society.
  49. -1 points
    Like I said, reread those passages you try so hard to defend. It will give you evidence you are not willing to learn the truth. My excuses or yours. The only deception I see comes from people that don't educate themselves about history. Anyone can take something out of context in order to express a negative outcome. What those people can't do is teach an educated person how to lie, especially when those, lies are poorly drawn.
  50. -1 points
    AlanF

    Leo K. Greenlees

    Anna said: I think you're very confused about this. Who would have known? Who would have thought him cured? When? True, but that again assumes that those elders knew of the pedophile. Greenlees was not known to anyone but his victims, and perhaps unknown accomplices. The psychiatric community and pretty much everyone dealing with children. And God. Note this: "Pedophilia was first formally recognized and named in the late 19th century." -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PedophiliaApparent the holy spirit did not get the message. Ok. Come on! We all know (at least, non-trinitarians do) that the Bible's use of "holy spirit" is just a metaphor for God's power, or better, just God. So saying that "holy spirit did this and that" means "God did this and that". So are you claiming that God did not know about pedophilia, or that Greenlees was a homosexual pedophile? In the sense that, put plainly, "God was not deceived". Nope. Most Christians claim to follow the directions in the Bible, and you certainly don't accept that God directs them, metaphorically or directly. Once again, by that reasoning the Pope has been appointed by God.




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