Jump to content

Leaderboard


Popular Content

Showing content with the highest reputation on 07/29/2020 in all areas

  1. 2 points
    I realize I had skipped this question. Revelation 2 and 3 show that various congregations should at all times watch out for false teachings and that they might even go through phases of cleaning out false doctrine, immorality, and increasing their Christian "deeds." This is exactly what Russell and the WTS had tried to do, and it's being done in greater measure all the time. (Revelation 2:18-23) 18 “To the angel of the congregation in Thy·a·tiʹra write: These are the things that the Son of God says, the one who has eyes like a fiery flame and whose feet are like fine copper: 19 ‘I know your deeds, and your love and faith and ministry and endurance, and that your deeds of late are more than those you did at first. 20 “‘Nevertheless, I do hold this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezʹe·bel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and misleads my slaves to commit sexual immorality and to eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent, but she is not willing to repent of her sexual immorality. . . . so that all the congregations will know that I am the one who searches the innermost thoughts and hearts, and I will give to you individually according to your deeds. (Revelation 3:1, 2) . . .“To the angel of the congregation in Sarʹdis write: These are the things that he says who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars: ‘I know your deeds, that you have the name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Become watchful, and strengthen the things remaining that were ready to die, for I have not found your works fully performed before my God. Those were just two of several examples. But they show how Jesus has been head of the congregations, who are responsible for greater accomplishments. The CCJW has done more than any others to accomplish greater deeds to more fully perform the congregation's duties regarding love, faith, ministry, morality, doctrine, and do this on an international scale. We are living in a time when certain methods are just now possible that were not possible before. Being alert to such types of "deeds" have included our ability to go beyond just "house-to-house" and make use of the printed page, transportation, radio, advertising, Internet. Staying alert to doing what we can, when properly motivated, is why we are blessed to be associated in this particular time period. And it seems like a pretty good guess that we are reaching the most critical of critical times. We don't actually "need" any chronology to tell us that it's time to lift our heads up because our deliverance is getting near.
  2. 2 points
    Jesus said that the harvest is the synteleia. (Matthew 13:39) The harvest is a conclusion [synteleia] of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. Therefore, there is no specific time period just before Armageddon. This also removes the contradiction we have created against Jesus' words that no one knows the times and seasons. If we say that we know absolutely that we were preaching in the last "measurable" generation prior to Armageddon, then we would be making Jesus out to be a liar. Anything can happen. The UN could actually ban religion just as we expect to happen in the next few years. But claiming that such a thing must happen just before Armageddon makes Jesus out to be a liar. It also causes trouble with the parable of the wheat and the weeds, where both grow together indistinguishably from a human perspective until the angels reap the world. We should also remember that just because synteleia can be translated as conclusion, that conclusion need not be an extended time period. ("full end" is actually a better translation in the Bible's context.) We could be near the end of a season, and then suddenly everything is concluded, or consummated. You can get near the end of a novel and then in one sentence a conclusion sums up the entire story. We have learned to think of "conclusion" in a sense that was not in the Bible. In the Bible, the "conclusion" is getting near, the "conclusion" is approaching. Even though the disciples were only a few short years from the "conclusion" of a system of things in 70 CE, they weren't "in" the conclusion. The "synteleia" was a destructive conclusion to the entire age. Note how Mark uses the verb form of the same word (synteleo😞 (Mark 13:4) 4 “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are to come to a conclusion?” That translates a better sense of synteleia/synteleo as "conclusion." Literally, the term is about the final end of all things together, therefore the phrase "synteleia" of the "age". Other translations get even closer with their translation of Mark here: (NLT) “Tell us, when will all this happen? What sign will show us that these things are about to be fulfilled?” When the full phrase is used, "synteleia of the age," it's a way of saying "the end of all things." Peter used those exact words instead of the synteleia phrase. (1 Peter 4:7) . . .But the end of all things has drawn close. . . . (and 2 Peter details how this means the [figurative] passing away of the heavens and earth that now exist.) If the NWT had used that phrase "end of all things" the idea of a long drawn out conclusion would be gone. For example: (Matthew 28:20) . . .And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things end of all things.”
  3. 2 points
    "Harvest" seems to be a simple enough concept. But it's a good question because the Bible is about spiritual matters, using physical analogies to help us understand. We don't always expect the same physical analogy to be a perfect fit to all the related spiritual concepts. There are several aspects of the Kingdom, for example, and therefore Jesus used multiple physical analogies that all help build up a clearer understanding. (i.e., "The kingdom is like a . . . "] We live in "historical time" and must use concepts like "harvest time" "thousand year reign" "last days" "last hour" "times of the nations" (gentile times), "this generation." But Jehovah's thoughts are unimaginably higher than our thoughts, especially as he "knows the end from the beginning." Jesus knew the mind of his father, so some of his uses of terms will reflect this. Knowing the end from the beginning can include reading hearts in such a way that Jehovah can already see the "harvest" in someone, even during the "sowing" season. And from this perspective, multiple fulfillments of a prophecy can work out even if not all the details of one fulfillment would fit the next. In addition, since these are spiritual concepts almost everything we know about the Kingdom from its overarching historical perspective and ultimate fulfillment will also have a corresponding fulfillment in our own life, our personal conduct, and our responsibilities in the world and in the Christian Congregation. Isaiah spoke of a kind of "spiritual" paradise in the nation of "Judea/Israel" for example. Paul spoke of already being "resurrected" to a new life, and already being seated in heavenly places. Therefore, in our personal lives, we "reap what we sow." As Paul said, based on Psalms 112: (2 Corinthians 9:10, 11) 10 Now the One who abundantly supplies seed to the sower and bread for eating will supply and multiply the seed for you to sow and will increase the harvest of your righteousness.) 11 In everything you are being enriched for every sort of generosity, which produces through us an expression of thanks to God; In Israel physically, the disciples would have know that there could be a long planting season with various types of seeds to be planted at different times and several harvests across a couple of months depending on what ripened first. So it was especially in the context of Matthew 13 that we get this picture of a sudden, swift harvest carried out by angels. We might not have noticed that if Matthew had not included a second portion of that parable where the disciples asked Jesus to explain. (Matthew 13:29, 30) . . .He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’” Should note that the NWT breaks with its usual translation of kairos as "appointed time" and goes with "season" on this one. This allows for extending the harvest (and therefore the synteleia) over a century or more long period. If this "rule" had been followed, it would have read: 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the appointed time of the harvest, Imagine how much trouble would have been avoided if "season" had been used here for the same word "kairos": (Mark 13:32, 33) 32 “Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father. 33 Keep looking, keep awake, for you do not know when the appointed time is. It would have made it clear that we do not know when the "appointed time" is, but also that we do not know when the "season" is. Compare: (Revelation 14:15, 16) . . .Another angel emerged from the temple sanctuary, calling with a loud voice to the one seated on the cloud: “Put your sickle in and reap, because the hour has come to reap, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” 16 And the one seated on the cloud thrust his sickle into the earth, and the earth was reaped. But this doesn't mean that harvest always had that same "sudden" aspect, controlled from a heavenly master, and angels. In Matthew 13, Jesus was the sower, and the fine seed were the sons of the Kingdom. But in other senses, as mentioned above, Paul could say that he was a sower, and Apollos a waterer, for example. Or even this illustration, where the disciples are reapers of a harvest: (John 4:34-38) 34 Jesus said to them: “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. 35 Do you not say that there are yet four months before the harvest comes? Look! I say to you: Lift up your eyes and view the fields, that they are white for harvesting. Already 36 the reaper is receiving wages and gathering fruit for everlasting life, so that the sower and the reaper may rejoice together. 37 For in this respect the saying is true: One is the sower and another the reaper. 38 I sent you to reap what you did not labor on. Others have labored, and you have entered into the benefit of their labor.”
  4. 2 points
    Thank you for all your replies @JW Insider In summary, as I understand it: 1. Jesus' coming/ parousia/presence although invisible (since he is a spirit) will be manifest in a physical way, like lightning flashing from one end of the earth to the other. At the same time, everyone, good or bad will be aware that this is the manifestation of Jesus, the king, and that he has come to judge the world. We know it as Armageddon. This is also when the harvest will occur because the wheat (true Christians and those righteously disposed) will be separated from the weeds (false Christians) which will be removed from the earth. 2. Jesus' presence with his disciples till the conclusion of the system of things began in 33 C.E. when he was crowned king (WT interprets this to mean king over the Christians, but it seems like he was made king over the whole earth, although Arauna has made some good points about why this is is not necessarily so ). All the above makes sense to me. However, we are still left with that secondary,"later application", (as opposed to the 1st century application) with regard to "the conclusion of the system of things" as being a period of time before Armageddon. If we do away with 1914, as there is no need for it if Jesus was crowned king over all in 33 CE , then there is also no need to solve the generation, but there still remain questions with regard to this specific time period. In other words, where does the "revival" of true religion in the time of the modern day "last days" fit in? (As the scriptures seem to indicate, and JWs believe). There seems to be plenty of evidence that apostasy did occur, as was predicted by Jesus, and therefor in time there had to be a separation of true Christians and counterfeit Christians. This though meets with conflict when we think of the idea of the two growing together as the weeds and the wheat until the harvest during Christ's coming/parusia/Armageddon because it could be understood that these two, the weeds and the wheat are intermingled, as in a field, and stay that way until they are separated at Armageddon. However, the Bible does say that in the time of the end true knowledge will become abundant, as opposed to apostatized knowledge. It is logical that people of like mind will gather together, and it fits in with the Bible students of Russell's day, and ultimately to our day as Jehovah's Witnesses worshiping together worldwide but in doctrinal unity. This is why I suppose Jehovah’s Witnesses are defined as a restorationist Christian religion as opposed to traditional "Christianity" which sprung up after the apostasy. Christendom, although believing in some kind of judgement day in the future, does not occupy itself with the possible imminent second coming of Christ. I definitely give Jehovah's Witnesses credit in this regard, because since the beginning of their organized activity, the focus has been on relentlessly preaching the good news of the kingdom, the nearness of Christs coming to settle nutters on earth, and for Christians to be ready and finally to be found by him to be spotless and unblemished (coincidentally this was an item in tonight's meeting). In contrast, Christendom has done nothing to prepare their members for that day....to be ready and found approved by God.... although through the centuries it has acquired many converts (using very un-Chritian means) ultimately, it has taught them many untruths and caused much blood shed in the name of God. Surely, those who separated themselves from that kind of "Christianity" and grouped together were the wheat, and already stood apart from the weeds as if they had been harvested. But as you say the fact that the preaching work is still going on, means that the planting is still going on and No one continues to plant after the harvest has started. " I remember the WT and remember thinking the same at the time.....So what is the answer to this problem?
  5. 2 points
    This was the same scheme used in Canada
      Hello guest!
    Now, Norway will have to explain how that court’s decision does not conflict with Norwegians new laws, how the new law grants religious groups the right to govern themselves and choose their leaders. In 2017, the Norwegian shifted its constitution to separate church from state after 500 years of being recognized as the same. That judge will have to justify he has violated its own parliamentary laws governed by new legislation. § 2 shall sound: Section 2. Ecclesiastal division Soknet is the basic unit of the Church of Norway and cannot be solved from it. The Church of Norway, as well as the individual parish, are its own legal subjects and have rights and obligations themselves, are parties to agreements with private and public authorities and have a party position with the court and other authorities. Each parish belongs to one prostitute. Each prostitute belongs to one diocese. Each parish shall be served by the priest, every prostitute of the prostitute and each diocese of the bishop. Changes in the ecclesiastical division and the name of the church, parish, prosti and diocese are determined by the King. The Ministry makes the provisions necessary for the implementation of sectional changes and makes necessary changes in the application of applicable law. The decision-making authority according to this paragraph may be left to the diocese council. This example is but one out of 3 acts the Watchtower needs to consider. Hopefully they will. Just like Bro Jackson told the Australian inquest, this is what happens when State tries to intervene in religious matters “without” understanding the scope of the matter in scripture, not verbatim. This is why “gossip” is never a good thing, especially when it comes from uneducated individuals that don’t understand basic commonwealth laws.
  6. 2 points
    Seems you are playing up to yours. But then again, obscuring facts is a favorite here isn't it. Even some witnesses are gullible enough to accept a one-sided article as proof. I see an appeal in the horizon.
  7. 1 point
    A Norwegian JW woman, who was sexually abused, was disfellowshipped for fornication. The woman first appealed inside the organization - without success. Feeling injustice, she then decided to sue Jehovah's Witnesses. The court decided last month that the disfellowshipping was against the Norwegian law and must be canceled. The court also ordered the local Jehovah's Witness organization to pay 100 000 NOK to the woman. Here is the story, in a Norwegian newspaper.
  8. 1 point
    No, I am definitely not a fan. But, as with everything, there are pluses and minuses. Today, there are still those who mourn those days, missing the camaraderie, the "we have nothing but neither does our neighbor". Those who kissed the Bolshevik's butts fared better than those who didn't. Personally, I can't understand why anyone would like anything about that period, except there was maybe less stress, because no one actually worked, but those who wanted to work, or contribute something useful to society, usually had to emigrate, usually illegally, leaving behind family members. As a child, I could never understand why someone was not allowed to leave the country. I don't know much about China, so I cannot compare their communism to the communism I experienced, I am sure there are similarities but also differences. But any totalitarian regime, run by imperfect people, is wrong.
  9. 1 point
    repentant to whom? Not the men on the GB nor the elders, because they mean NOTHING!
  10. 1 point
    Child Sexual Abuse, Victim needs TWO Witnesses to accuse a Paedophile adult JW Woman gets sexually abused or raped, Elders disfellowship her for fornication with no witnesses So where is the justice and love and mercy in either case ?
  11. 1 point
    There's a difference Srecko when you ask a question of God for spiritual guidance and understanding. You are not doing that. You are questioning God himself on how his people should be no different from this wicked world by questioning Gods sovereignty. and telling him to make changes to suit you within modern times.
  12. 1 point
    Well, you make a good point here. and here. Truman wouldn’t let him, and was pilloried for standing up to the Great Man, firing him. I recall being amazed when I first learned of this. (I had heard it was 50–compromise and say ‘up to 50’)
  13. 1 point
    In the end, the only thing that matters is that certain countries will not permit the spread of the good news, and other countries will, barring only exceptional circumstances, and even then with less vigor. This makes them, by default, “the bad guys”—certainly to us, and if the Good News really is good, to God. Other than that, would I have anything in particular against communism? I’m not sure that I would. I am content where I am. But by most accounts, persons in China are content where they are too. This is exactly the point I made long ago regarding Trump that brought JTR to his feet cheering. Brothers will carry on and on about neutrality, admonishing each other should they detect wavering, and then will swallow anything rotten about the US President that his enemies serve up. Even Bro Jackson, when he says we must guard against that furtive thought, “I hope that idiot doesn’t get into power” will cause some to ask, because of the time and place in which he said it, “I wonder what idiot he has in mind?”
      Hello guest!
    I think it is a function of where we have been in life, and what outrages infuriate us most. There are plenty enough to go around and stoke all schools of thought. Nobody mows them down like the atheists do when they are setting the stage for their next secular utopia, or changing the props, determined to advance with some Great Leap Forward. I like it that @Arauna departed from Asia briefly to highlight what happened with the atheist-rationalists gained the upper hand in France, a nominal “Christian” country. I read a book (on Ben Franklin) that points out that David Hume, the English sceptic, was at a lost as to how to deal with the certainty adopted by the French atheists. In contrast, when the West mows them down, it tends to focus on just subjugating them, rather than eradicating them. The West is more likely to be “killing them softly”—perhaps by shoveling them into the maw of some financial market, just like JWI outlines above with drugs. In gathering material for ‘Dear Mr Putin- JWs Write’ I found that America bombs more countries than Russia—quite a few more—so that you almost wonder who it is that is putting his trust in “fortresses,” but since the king of the north does it more openly—parading weapons on May Day, and so forth—their military persona stands. Still, it is big business capitalism that inevitably puts lobbyists in Washington to persuade the power brokers that the world is a super dangerous place abounding with enemies, but—“fortunately for you—we here at Bob’s Bombs make just the products that you need.” When I did a post ago battling atheists who were railing on about slavery as the greatest possible evil, and how the Bible must be no good because it was willing to work with it rather than flatly condemn it, one contributor joined in to say that in the Western world the way it is now, many would be benefited by being slaves—their conditions would improve by most measures, if only because most “owners” would realize the value of keeping their “property” in good repair. He ran then-current figures of minimum wage, and assumed entirely reasonable situations, to show that the lives of many working poor were in many ways far worse than slaves. It is all what outrages trigger you most, and that is determined by one’s experiences if life. I do agree with this, however “evidence” takes many forms. She speaks of people that “she knows.” Is that lesser evidence than reports that have been culled by a think tank? Go find a think tank of the opposite persuasion—there are plenty of them in any field. The universal pattern in the US is to run the “evidence” of the other person into the ditch, though I will concede that her case is stronger if she makes it in print and with backing. Still, “evidence” is compounded or discarded by whoever’s interests prevail at the moment, often it is financial muscle that propels some evidence and suppresses other evidence.
  14. 1 point
    I like this explanation. I think this is the best explanation anyone ever came up with to mesh free will and predestination, both of which seem possible from Jehovah's perspective (based on certain scriptures).
  15. 1 point
    Article quote: A new Supreme Court ruling that Jehovah’s Witnesses are free to banish and shun any member they wish, regardless of how they decide to do it, offers a powerful precedent for religious independence in Canada. I would like to direct your attention how Court in Canada confirmed what WT lawyer David Gnam in UK tried to hide: JW's shun any member they wish. WT lawyer claimed before Court how: Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t use the word “shun” or “shunning”. But this Court in Canada told The Truth, JW's not only using word shun, but have all rights to practice shunning over members (or ex members) they wish. - WTJWorg are so satisfied to use double measures in various court cases, and have no problem about own hypocrisy. Shameful! Article continue: The top court’s decision rejects that view, bluntly refers to his “sinful” behaviour, and says it has no business making legal decisions about it. At issue were two episodes of drunkenness, one in which Wall “verbally abused” his wife, for which he was not “sufficiently repentant,” according to court records. I don't clearly see how two episodes of drunkenness, one in which Wall “verbally abused” his wife is not something that can be interesting to police or social service or some other civil service in state. Drunkenness and abusing other people is something that is punishable in most countries. In his case somebody reported him to JW elders and not to secular authority for his "sinful behavior". If JW church have right, according to Canadian Supreme Court, to make decisions how they will "punish" "sinful behavior" of member, what is that different when some other church doing same according to their "religious beliefs", because as article say: But the Supreme Court has now said once and for all that the courts ought not to interfere in religious discipline. Well, what is this different to "religious discipline", for example, to cut hand of thief or to stone adulteress because of their "sin" -The top court’s decision rejects that view, bluntly refers to his “sinful” behaviour, and says it has no business making legal decisions about it. But all "civilized world" looks with disapproval when this sort of punishment is common practice in some societies. :))
  16. 1 point
    Does this mean, God has never punished the unrepentant? Does this mean, the inspired word of God should not be used as an instrument of Gods stance against unrepentant and individuals that partake in worldly sin in order to keep Christ body and church clean? What is the point of keeping Christian ethics, if we are to accept being part of this world is a Christian, criteria?
  17. 1 point
    I think I can also prove that both David's and Solomon's kingdoms were run by men. Could these same men still be used by Jehovah?
  18. 1 point
    It may be one of those “what goes around comes around situations.” Isn’t Bolshevikism in Russia a Western import, injected to better ensure an outcome of WW1, without any regard for the peoples there? Didn’t the Opium Wars serve to illustrate the West’s only interest in China—as an enriching market, and if you had to transform the population into addicts, so be it? Not to mention how peeved they were after the war that Japan, the country that had behaved so savagely towards them, was nonetheless restored by the US—whereas their interests counted for squat? Everything may be just as you say, and to be sure, I suspect that JWI is a closet-pinko still, it seems to me a case of how the sins of the fathers come home to roost. @Annashould weigh in on this, for I recall her saying how she has lived under communist rule and is not a fan.
  19. 1 point
    4Jah2me

    What do you do for fun?

    I exercise a lot. I go for two hour walks, and this morning it seems I managed 137 steps per minute, speed walking, although i was only waking for 90 minutes this morning. I also have a 'chin up bar' in the doorway between my 'office room' and the kitchen. I have a sit up bar which is permanently 'hooked' under the door. I can manage 50 sit ups on a good day, 40 on a bad day. And i have a stepper for exercise if it's raining too hard to walk outside. I love exercise for many reasons, but it makes me hungry, and another enjoyment of mine is eating. I love fruit of many kinds, and veg. I do think about God and offer thanks for all the wonderful different kinds of food that we have to eat. (Lunch break takes me an hour, I never rush food). I'm thinking, seriously, of learning Ballet. I was attending dance classes previously at a fabulous Studio, doing Jazz and 'street' dance, and also 'Musical theatre', but my brain wasn't quick enough to fit all the movements together. I'm physically fit enough, but my brain just doesn't seem to coordinate (is that the right word) the movements. I'm hoping Ballet will be slower and easier to learn. At 70 years old I'm not ready to just sit in my rocking chair and sleep. I am still receiving the 'study editions' of the Watchtower but admit to not reading them often, and my Bible reading has lapsed. I drive a 'very unusual' old car which gives me great pleasure but would get disapproval from the Org, and probably gets disapproval from my neighbours too. (I don't tend to talk to my neighbours as it's not the way my wife and i want to live. We much prefer our own privacy) I do find that older people are so boring in that they seem to think there is an age limit on everything. The old idea of, 'You can't wear that you are too old'. or, 'You can't drive a car like that at your age'.... My feeling is that Almighty God has a good sense of humour, and that he does not disapprove of so much.
  20. 1 point
    Your personal opinion is not important! It is the FACTs on the ground that remains important. Atrocities are being hidden unsuccessfully by the Central communist party because real journalists, who know their job, are smuggling out evidence and secretly talking to people who know what is going on. You have eaten up all the propaganda spun by some pro-communist newspapers in USA (most are now sympathetic to cultural marxism because the UNITED Nations has decided that China is the way forward for the One World Government and its agenda 2030 plans.). China pays most newspapers in USA to publish good things about them. This has been going on for years! They have infiltrated universities, media and even have spies working in US who threaten expatriates' lives if they talk negatively about China. Many of the PHD students who are at strategic departments at universities are military personnel...ready to steal new developments. America has woken up much too late! Russia and China have turned brutal in their internal affairs. They treated foreign students well before but have become openly hostile to foreigners! The propaganda on TV is hostile to foreigners and US. I know people who have left china. As allies, Russia and China are the true king of the NORTH - ready to contend and undermine America's position (the king of the south). Their allies are all the renegade countries of the world such as Iran, Turkey and many ex-soviet countries who still have totalitarian governments or are close to it with strong ties to Russia. The US Petro-dollar currency will be replaced by a new world currency … once the reset is complete. The dollar will soon no longer be the exchange currency. The capitalist facelift that both Russia and China experienced for nearly 20 years is something from the past! Both are going back to the old hardened form of communism. Stalin has once again become popular in Russia and his millions of murders of his own citizens has been whitewashed (40 million down to 20 million) and so has Mao se Tung been sanctified with his murders down to 40 million of his own citizens. Communism - because it is atheist - has no respect for life. Vietnam, Cambodia, North Korea are all examples of severe oppression of its citizens and the killing of unwanted citizens. The Russian orthodox is a hollow religions. Burning of candles and an excellent vehicle for propagandizing Putin's plans and nationalism 1 million Muslims are in forced labor camps. Their children are taken away and 're-trained' to be good communist citizens with NO religion. The Muslims make Nike, H & M and other famous brands in the forced labor factories. More than 10,000 people per year are killed for their body parts. Doctors who have defected have told about these abuses. For medical tourists they have body parts immediately available - no waiting time. There are at least 7 hospitals that do organ transplants every day of the week and their programs are full! Just to mention one of your assertions about Tibet: China has, and is using the source of all the fresh water which originate in Tibet. They want to make dams for the creation of electricity too ! (The rivers of India and china originate in these mountains). .....and yes - they are doing as all communist countries do (Russia does the same) - they move populations out, and replace them with Chinese or Russian citizens who are loyal to the regime. This is ongoing. China is famous for its predatory loans to get control of fast territories and also ports, airports etc.....Not just in all the silk road countries but in Africa and south America. Iran (their other ally - has criminal gangs in Argentina which is making life unbearable for an already suffering people. Resources such as rare earth minerals, wood, fishing waters are being stolen or taken by china. Russia is now in a proxy war in Libya to try to get access of the port to the Mediterranean sea... it already has a port in Syria. I think you underestimate both Russia and China as the leaders of the communist world! Putin has now become president for life and immediately on this announcement clamped down on journalists. He is open about his greed for power - as is China, Iran and many of their allies. Read Daniel 11: 36-40. It is not just an economic pushing - it may still turn ugly! Do not push ideas that are against JW teachings and do not push pro-Marxist propaganda on us when we all know that Russia is the King of the North! We do not take sides in the political battles BUT to try to paint China as an innocent who has been maligned - is absolutely incorrect. Neither is Russia innocent of all the atrocities - especially against Jehovah's people. China are also using body parts of 'conscientious objectors' for their transplants! and organs are removed while the patients are conscious! NO organized religion is allowed in china. China agreed with the pope that they would appoint bishops to the catholic church - and once they knew all the catholic inside business they started clamping down on them...….. not to be trusted. Personally, I do not care about China's horrific politics because we cannot do anything about it - only Jehovah can do this in future. What I do now - they are allies with Russia and absolutely wicked in how they are killing their own people. This is a good point when doing field service when atheists push their ideas. To show the history of atheist countries. How they killed millions of people in the early 20th century gives them quite a wake-up call because many do not know this history! This atheist ideology is overtaking the world because it has been taught in schools. (Part of UN UNESCO curricula). Satan will use it as a vehicle for severe oppression in future so that Jehovah will have to step in - otherwise no flesh will be saved. Many are going to die of hunger and oppression in the great tribulation due to a central world government pushed by UN. USA seems to be heading for a similar type of government with the youth now asking for social justice and a revolution. Whether a powerful central government comes in by vote or by dictator - the result is the same. There is no equality. The top echelons rule and the bottom are all equal. Only those that worship the state can rise to the top and those without a conscience.... this is awaiting the world. I believe it when the bible says that it will be the worst tribulation the world have ever seen and I know that a new form of Marxism and central government (united nations together with those who have handed over its power to them) will be calling the shots. They will turn against all religion and persecute us. Why? because they hate all religion and it is satan's plan to get every person on earth compromised so they cannot get Jehovah's approval. all will be forced to worship the state /beast.
  21. 1 point
    Yes - but different aspects of his reign is highlighted - it does not just pure rulership i.e. such as ruling only over his disciples and having the authority over them, then ruling amidst his enemies as well, and then ruling over the entire earth...….. so his dominion (what he rules over) is slowly extended even though he is an appointed king with authority. Just like in any rulership when one goes out to conquer you extend your rulership. Jehovah has appointed times for everything to take place. Jesus was definitely not ruling over the entire world in this time because it is in the hands of satan and the wicked - even though he is a king. That is why Jehovah as eternal king is mentioned as " Jehovah has become king" This does not refer to Jehovah not being king before - but it refers to a new situation where he has taken over rulership once again.
  22. 1 point
    The most direct meaning needs to make good sense in this context: Jesus predicts a cataclysmic, catastrophic, spectacular event that no one can miss or ignore because it will involve the destruction of the greatest Jewish city its most important landmark, the Temple at Jerusalem. The disciples, quite logically, ask for an advance warning sign that they can watch out for. Because they asked for a sign Jesus repeats warnings about not being fooled or misled by signs because even though many events will happen, the end they are asking about is not yet. They will see "signs" and see people who will make claims and predictions and perform signs and wonders, and they must make sure they are not misled. Signs they might think are evidence of the end, and it might only be the beginning. In this case. Looking for signs will do no direct good because this particular judgment event will come as if by surprise, like a thief in the night. While people are still grinding at the mill, getting married, eating, and drinking, etc. Within that context, of people falsely interpreting signs, making false predictions, making false claims about their knowledge, falsely claiming to be the Messiah themselves, or even many claiming that Jesus is the Messiah but that only they can lead disciples to him with true knowledge only they know about. (Matthew 24:4, 5) . . .In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. Note that it is possible that people will come on the basis of knowing that Jesus is the Christ, (not themselves) therefore even claiming that "Jesus is the Christ" and will still mislead many. This is much more common than people falsely claiming to be Christ themselves. It is more like the people Jesus described as "performing many powerful works in his name" but Jesus would still say, I never knew you. Jesus didn't say that any of these might claim that Jesus had returned invisibly. But the effect was the same. They would claim that they had special knowledge of his whereabouts, as if he had gone off and returned somewhere. And how would the disciples know that these persons who made such claims were wrong? Because Jesus parousia would be highly visible. Unmistakably visible. Think of the brightest lightning you have ever seen, or can imagine: from one extremity of the earth to the other. I don't think it refers a literal physical presence either: (Matthew 24:30, 31) . . .and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity. . . I always thought of it as the "brightness of his glory." The disciples had a glimpse at the Transfiguration. Paul had a glimpse that blinded him. John had a glimpse: (Revelation 1:16) . . .And he had in his right hand seven stars, and out of his mouth a sharp, long, two-edged sword was protruding, and his countenance was like the sun when it shines at its brightest. (Matthew 16:27) . . .For the Son of man is destined to come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will recompense each one according to his behavior. Jesus said that even those resurrected or changed in that day, which is part of it, will shine as the sun. (Matthew 13:43) . . .At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father.. . . And it's not just "those with insight" who see this bright manifestation. I think the post responding to Arauna point about this was already copied over to here. (Matthew 24:30) . . .And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. That part does not have to visible to the rest of us. Paul's point in 1 Thess 4:17 for example, was about how those persons with new glorified spiritual bodies, whether resurrected or changed, would meet Jesus Christ. Just how spiritual bodies "see" cannot be imagined by any of us. But when the Bible speaks of angels or heavenly bodies, it often points out how these bodies are glorious, and too glorious for humans to look upon unless the human was somehow shielded from the full "power and glory" of the spiritual body. We know for sure is that the Bible associates Jesus coming on the clouds with "visibility" as in Matt 24:30. When Jesus ascended the first time, the cloud was associated with a point in time when they could no longer see him as he evidently finally disappeared into the clouds. This was obviously not necessary to have Jesus float upwards, but effective for human description. So it seems like some of the glorious effect (like seeing the power and great glory, or being as visible as a flash of unimaginably bright lightning) is also to help the rest of us make sense of it. More than just an understanding of who is behind it all. The harvest must actually be after the wheat and the weeds have continued to grow together until it's time for the angels to gather the chosen ones. This must also be the parousia, synteleia, or "day of judgment" when the angels are sent out to the extremities of the earth to gather (harvest) the chosen ones. This harvest period has been a problem from the beginning of the Watchtower's attempts to explain it. Originally it was a harvest in the 19th century. Barbour had argued for a harvest only from 1874 to the end of it in 1881. Russell settled on 1874 to 1914. When Jesus was considered to be failing to arrive in 1914 for the "visible" parousia, Russell began moving it (and the Gentile Times end) to 1915, and then Rutherford claimed that Jesus had actually arrived/returned in 1918, so that Rutherford changed the range of the harvest from 1878 to 1918. There had also been discussions of how some of the original 1844 crowd must have been wise virgins, especially when they showed themselves ready to NOT give up on chronology, as Miller had. When the new date for the midnight cry was considered to have occurred between 1844 and 1874 (typically 1859/1860) some preliminary harvesting must have taken place from chronology-compliant virgins even before that point. Originally, the trumpet sounds were extended further back towards the beginning of the last days, starting in 1799. For example a very early Watch Tower on the topic (1880, p.152-3) says that trumpet associated with reaping the first fruits of the Gospel Age went back to 1840: As to the time of our change, that it is at, (or during) the sounding of the "last trump,"—the "seventh," Rev. 10:7, and 11:15-18—and after the Lord himself has descended is plainly stated. We need not here repeat the evidences that the "seventh trump" began its sounding A.D. 1840, and will continue until the end of the time of trouble, and the end of "The times of the Gentiles," A.D. 1914, and that it is the trouble of this "Great day," which is here symbolically called the voice of the Archangel when he begins the deliverance of fleshly Israel. "At that time shall Michael stand up, the great Prince. (Archangel) which standeth for the children of thy people, and there shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation." Dan. 12:1. Nor will we here, again present the conclusive Bible proof that our Lord came for his Bride in 1874, and has an unseen work as Reaper of the first-fruits of this Gospel Age, (Rev. 14:16) in separating between wheat and tares and gathering the living into a condition of readiness for their change. So the harvest here is especially 1874 to 1914. 1914 was of course, as it says above, the end of the time of trouble, and a time when there would be physical manifestations of the parousia, and FLESHLY Israel would be delivered. I can't really see how any of this made sense, because we are still planting. No one continues to plant after the harvest has started. This is also another of those places where trying to extend the period of the synteleia/parousia results in Bible contradictions. Note: (Matthew 13:39-43) . . .The harvest is a conclusion [synteleia] of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion [synteleia] of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. . . . The harvest is the "end of the age" when those who cause stumbling will be pitched into the fiery furnace and the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun. If that has not happened yet, then we are not in the harvest yet. If the wheat and weeds are still growing together, we are not in the harvest yet. The Watchtower admits this: *** w13 7/15 p. 13 par. 16 “Look! I Am With You All the Days” *** Jesus ends his prophecy by saying: “At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.” (Matt. 13:43) When and where will that be? The fulfillment of these words still lies ahead. Jesus foretold, not an activity currently taking place on earth, but a future event occurring in heaven. As the footnote admits, for many years we tried to make this apply to the long period of the parousia when the preaching work occurred. *** w13 7/15 p. 13 “Look! I Am With You All the Days” *** However, Matthew 13:43 points to the time when they will shine brightly in the heavenly Kingdom. Previously, we thought that both scriptures referred to the same activity—the preaching work. But now we move this "harvest" into the future, but still claim we are in the time of the harvest, and planting (the preaching work).
  23. 1 point
    I don't think any Witness would expect to see this change happen when one of the anointed dies. And no one expects to see any who live until the parousia change until a time just a bit prior to Armageddon when the remaining ones of the Bride are expected to join Christ in heaven, and be able to participate in "judging the nations." That's because there is a tiny loophole in 1 Thess. 4:15-17 (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death;16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. The NLT puts it like this: We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died.[fn] It seems quite obvious that Paul was trying to comfort those who knew fellow Christians who had died. One might naturally assume that if some (Group A-"alive") survived to see the parousia begin, then those who had previously died (Group B-"buried") would have to wait untii the resurrection occurred after the parousia was over. So Paul said to comfort those with dead loved ones that those dead (Group B) would not miss out on anything because just before the "rapture" at the parousia, the resurrection of those who had died would happen in time for them to see the parousia, so that they would all go to heaven at the same time with those who were "raptured" or "caught away" (Group A). But the WT doctrine puts no emphasis on the closeness in timing of the resurrection and changing of the two groups. The only concern of the WT doctrine is that Group A does not precede Group B. Group A could ascend 106 or more years after Group B was resurrected. Persons in Group A would not even need their lives to overlap with persons in Group B. The WT doctrine must posit a new group, Group C, who die throughout the 106+ years of an elongated parousia, and are changed upon death, dying "during" the parousia. Paul didn't need to have a Group C, because he apparently thought of the parousia as affecting Group A and Group B at almost exactly the same time.
  24. 1 point
    There are different possible words to use. But when you compare the contexts of Matthew 24, Luke 17/21, and Mark 13 it's pretty obvious that the all the different words refer to a "judgment event." The word for coming/arriving refers to the same "judgment event" as does the word "parousia" or even "synteleia" in Matthew. The other synoptics besides Matthew never use the term parousia, but replace all those instances with a form of come/arrive/happen/occur/be. Still referring to a judgment event in any case. (Matthew 24:3) . . .While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence [parousia] and of the conclusion of the system of things?” (Mark 13:4) 4 “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are destined to come to a conclusion?” (Luke 21:7) 7 Then they questioned him, saying: “Teacher, when will these things actually be, and what will be the sign when these things are destined to occur?” (Luke 17:24-30) 24 For even as the lightning, by its flashing, shines from one part under heaven to another part under heaven, so the Son of man will be. 25 First, however, he must undergo many sufferings and be rejected by this generation. 26 Moreover, just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of man: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage, until that day when Noah entered into the ark, and the flood arrived and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise, just as it occurred in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building. 29 But on the day that Lot came out of Sodʹom it rained fire and sulphur from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 The same way it will be on that day when the Son of man is to be revealed. (Matthew 24:27-30) 27 For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 28 Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matthew 24:37-42) 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned; 41 two women will be grinding at the hand mill: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned. 42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because YOU do not know on what day YOUR Lord is coming.
  25. 1 point
    I think they are all resurrected and transformed at about the same time. The WT doesn't say it knows for sure when it starts, but presents the idea that it could happen between 1914 to Armageddon. In fact, if it started in 1918, which was the original opinion after 1878 was dropped, then the idea was that ALL the previously dead anointed were raised at once in 1918, then newly deceased persons are changed in an instant. I was pointing out how the "we don't really know for sure" style of the 2007 article would actually imply that it's not really known when "during the parousia" that this first resurrection starts. "During the parousia" could start as far back as 1914, then, in WT teachings. But even if all resurrections of all the anointed took place in the last two days prior to Armageddon, that would technically also be "during the parousia." The article had made a big point of the word 'during' without pointing out that this is also the Greek word for 'at.' If the translation had been 'at the parousia' it probably would have implied 1914 to the particular writer of that article. If there are three appearances, then that's what it is. But I agree that the Bible does not speak of 3. It definitely speaks of 2 appearances however. But no one says it must be limited to 2. Each one of these appearances is also called a "reign" too. Jesus begins to reign over the congregation in 33. Then he begins to reign in his Kingdom in 1914. Then he begins the thousand year reign in just a few years. The Bible only speaks as if their is one reign of Christ, but again, this could be a matter of interpretation.
  26. 1 point
    Yes. It looks like this matches up best with the scriptures. I think that "synteleia" and "parousia" refer to the same time period. Synteleia can refer to the end of many things together, similar to a phrase that Peter used when he said "the end of all things has drawn close." Note the plural: (1 Peter 4:7) . . .But the end of all things has drawn close.. . . (1 Corinthians 10:11) . . .a warning to us upon whom the ends of the systems of things have come. We sometimes think of this as only referring to an end of a time period, but the word can refer more to a "destruction" of things that brings them to their end. Therefore the phrase in Matthew 24:3 could even be stated as: What can you give us as an advance warning sign before this "Visitation" and this destructive "End of the Age?" This is the current WT view on it, of course. (I have scrunched up your comment to fit in the re-quote box.) There are a few issues with it, which is why it comes up. #1 is right of course, but it ignores the fact that this is only the first step in gaining proper subjects for a "Kingdom." The scriptures make so much of the fact that Jesus has been given ALL AUTHORITY at his resurrection. He has conquered something that makes him above all other powers in the Universe except Jehovah. He is called king of kings after 33 CE. So why are we so reluctant to give Jesus credit for what he has accomplished? Note how the WT view is the REVERSE of the Bible's view here: (Ephesians 1:19-22) . . .It is according to the operation of the mightiness of his strength, 20 which he exercised toward Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named, not only in this system of things but also in that to come. 22 He also subjected all things under his feet and made him head over all things with regard to the congregation, In the WT view, Jesus is made head over all things with regard to the congregation for now, but by 1914 he will also come into his Kingdom authority with regards to every government [kingdom], authority and power and lordship. And as you know, Ephesians 1 is only one example of this. There are several others. Including 1 Timothy 6:16 already calling Jesus the "king of kings" in the first century. The Bible writers honored Jesus new position of authority over all governments of the earth, and all powers and lorships in heaven, too! *** it-1 p. 1136 Honor *** Since it was Jehovah God who highly exalted his Son, all who refuse to acknowledge Jesus Christ as the immortal King of kings and Lord of lords dishonor the Father. Because of who he is and what he has accomplished, the Son deserves honor and loyal support. (Joh 5:23; 1Ti 6:15, 16; Re 5:11-13) But,can you imagine the Watchtower ever highlighting the fact that Jesus was "king of kings" in the first century? Instead we get statements like the following: *** w94 5/1 p. 17 par. 9 Kingdom Proclaimers Active in All the Earth *** At the second Cedar Point convention, in 1922, Brother Rutherford highlighted the fact that at the end of the Gentile Times, in 1914, ‘the King of glory had taken unto himself his great power and had begun to reign.’ Next, he put the issue squarely to his audience, saying: “Do you believe that the King of glory has begun his reign? Then back to the field, O ye sons of the most high God! . . . Herald the message far and wide. The world must know that Jehovah is God and that Jesus Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords. This is the day of all days. Behold, the King reigns! You are his publicity agents.” Yes, in 1922, Rutherford began to speak of Jesus taking his power in 1914 as King, and cleansing the lips of the temple class, and it appeared that this was the first time Rutheford began to move the official date of Christ's reign from 1878. And even quotes such as these must forget that the actual words at the assembly included statements like: “In 1878 God’s favor was withdrawn from the nominal systems. From that time on Brother Russell and the brethren who supported him went throughout the land . . . . Do you believe it? Do you believe that the King of glory is present, and has been since 1874? Do you believe that during that time he has conducted his harvest work? Do you believe that he has had during that time a faithful and wise servant [Russell] through whom he directed his work and the feeding of the household of faith? Do you believe that the Lord is now in his temple, judging the nations of earth? Do you believe that the King of glory has begun his reign? “Then back to the field, O ye sons of the most high God! Gird on your armor! Be sober, be vigilant, be active, be brave. Be faithful and true witnesses for the Lord. Go forward in the fight until every vestige of Babylon lies desolate. Herald the message far and wide. The world must know that Jehovah is God and that Jesus Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords. This is the day of all days. Behold, the King reigns! It's true that Jesus could already be king of kings since 33CE, and then some great event in the future may move his followers to speak as if his kingship has just been renewed in some power way: "Jesus has now taken unto himself his great power and had begun to reign." Just as the Psalmist could look at a new Temple, or a great victory and say that "Jehovah has become King." But nothing was seen in 1914 about Jesus taking his power and becoming king of kings. It took Rutherford nearly 10 years before he began moving that "kingship" date from 1878 to 1914. During 1914, Rutherford must have seen 1914 as a failure. After it passed, Russell even changed the end of the Gentile Times to 1915. Rutherford specifically admitted later that no one had discerned what had happened in 1914 or 1918. The word "synteleia" itself (meaning the ending of things together) would not fit 1914. And "parousia" doesn't fit because Jesus only spoke of a very visible visitation for judgment, resurrections, and gathering the chosen ones. It's easy to claim it all happened invisibly, but it doesn't fit the scriptures. Even if parousia was being used in its most simple sense of an arrival and subsequent presence, there is nothing "invisible" about this particular visitation and presence. It would be like trying to claim that lightning is invisible.
  27. 1 point
    Technically, Bible Students never expected an invisible return of Christ, either in 1874 or 1914. It was only around 1876 that Russell "learned" that Jesus had returned invisibly in 1874. Even in 1916 when Russell died, he and other Bible Students still thought Jesus had returned invisibly in 1874. So no one was expecting an invisible return in 1914 either. The official "parousia" date was still 1874 until about 1943. By then, of course, it was too late to "expect" Jesus in 1914. Close enough, but still not exactly, of course. In 1879, when the Watch Tower magazine was still pointing to 1881 as the date for their resurrection or "rapture," the change from a physical to a spiritual body would be necessarily "visible" in the sense that "Bible Students" ** believed that they would disappear from the earth, either leaving behind a "dead" physical body, or nothing. Thousands would see the glorious manifestation of the Christ by October 1881 with their new spiritual eyes (and spiritual bodies) in heaven. But this would also leave behind either thousands of dead bodies, or thousands of missing persons. Hard to keep something like that hidden.
  28. 1 point
    True. But the Bible makes very clear that the parousia has its effect on those who do not know God, too. (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10) 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith. . . The only way around this, is to claim something that the Bible never claims: that the "parousia" is different from "that day," "the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven" and "the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones." The Bible speaks of only one time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones" and that day is sometimes called the parousia. Notice the parousia tied to the time he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones here: (2 Thessalonians 2:1) . . .However, brothers, concerning the presence [parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him,. . . Notice the parousia tied to the time he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones here: (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) . . .we the living who survive to the presence [parousia] of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. Notice the parousia tied to the time he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones here: (Matthew 24:27-37) . . .so the presence [parousia] of the Son of man will be. . . .30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity. . . . 36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence [parousia] of the Son of man will be. (Mark 13:26, 27) 26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he will send out the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity. Notice the parousia tied to the time he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones here: (1 Thessalonians 3:13) 13 so that he may make your hearts firm, blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the presence [parousia] of our Lord Jesus with all his holy ones. Therefore, the scriptures about the parousia and the day of Jehovah in the previous post still stand, too. The Bible makes no separation of the parousia from the revelation/manifestation of Jesus Christ in that day. That day, that parousia, comes upon the righteous as well as the unrighteous at the same time: (Luke 17:26-30) 26 Moreover, just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be in the days of the Son of man: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage until that day when Noah entered into the ark, and the Flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise, just as it occurred in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building. 29 But on the day that Lot went out of Sodʹom, it rained fire and sulfur from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 It will be the same on that day when the Son of man is revealed. (Matthew 24:37, 38) 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence [parousia] of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, Notice that the parousia is not paralleled with the days of Noah, but "that day" when Noah entered into the ark. Notice that the day the Son of man is revealed is not paralleled with the days of Lot, but "on the day" that Lot went out of Sodom. The Bible never separates the revelation/manifestation from the parousia. In fact, the Bible uses the expression "manifestation of his parousia."
  29. 1 point
    No. “There are those pesky people again coming up the drive trying to teach us the Bible! I sure wish those Oneness Pentecostals and the La Luz del Mundo and the Iglesia ni Cristo and the Christadelphians and the Christian Scientists, and the Dawn Bible Students, and the Living Church of God, and the Assemblies of Yahweh, And the Israelite Church of God in Jesus Christ, And the Members Church of God International, and the Unitarian Christians, and the Unitarian Universalist Christians, and the The Way International, and the The Church of God International, and the United Church of God. would give it a rest!”
  30. 1 point
    Wouldn't be the first time a jw woman got disfellowshipped for being raped.
  31. 1 point
    @Arauna Oh dear, you still get Almighty God and the Org mixed up don't you ? Almighty God can be loved and served without the one loving being a JW. And you use the word hate too freely IMO. I have no hate for anyone but i do have deep dislike for anyone deliberately misleading people.
  32. 0 points
    Silly me, I forgot you jw's believe children are committing fornication when they are molested.
  33. 0 points
    Absolutely true. Absolutely false. This isn't about US newspapers. It's about facts on the ground. It's also about researching facts, opinions, perspectives, ideologies, propaganda, etc. This can come from hundreds, if not thousands of journalists (and other sources) from many different countries who have been able to get information out of China. One needs to compare the perspectives of those who love China, hate China, and those who are neutral, or at least somewhere in between. One needs to consider the opinions and evidence of those who live in the many various parts of China, both Chinese (many ethnic varieties) and non-Chinese. One needs to consider the opinions and evidence of those who study China from both the inside and the outside. Ones who have left China, ones who have gone back, ones who will never go back, etc. You can't just get your information from newspapers. Learning about China is a huge project that requires even the most unlikely sources. You have to especially consider what people will admit being surprised about because it goes against their general ideology, and they look for ways to explain it, or (more rarely) adjust their ideology. You should also look at documents about planned propaganda from various sides that was not meant to be leaked to the public. (Also watch out for supposedly secret documents that were planned to be leaked to the public.) This is not about Russia. I have often found that people who need to hang on to a specific political and/or religious ideology will tend to believe almost anything they hear that fits their world view, and will tend to dismiss any evidence that threatens their religious or political ideology. They often give themselves away by making it a religious issue. Did I mention that they often give themselves away by making it a religious issue? It's very easy to fall for propaganda from anywhere, and all nations are guilty of producing propaganda. This should be about facts and evidence. It's very easy to make outrageous claims when no one requires evidence. Evidence? It's almost the opposite. China is actually famous for NOT engaging in these common practices of the U.S. and other Western countries. China has also been quick to completely relieve countries of their debts. Assertions made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. You shouldn't get the impression that revealing facts and evidence that tends to defend an entity or government somehow makes that entity or government automatically good or right in the eyes of the person providing the evidence. Just because a certain government might turn out to be better than they have been previously presented, doesn't mean that this certain government is everything it claims to be. Even if a certain type of government typically tends to do more for the poorer classes, and tends to equalize the difference between upper echelons and the poor, it doesn't mean that this problem is actually solved. But dismissing evidence just because one thinks that accepting it would endanger their Christian and/or Western world view is not even necessary. There is another way in which Biblical/Christian values are highlighted even among atheistic nations that try to do more for the poorer classes. For example, a country with whatever good or bad motivations, might find ways to reduce overall poverty without the expected damaging effects on its overall economy. One immediately sees elites of the world going into "damage control" by producing the worst or the most devious types of propaganda. Economic sabotage and interference will immediately be put in place against countries that nationalize resources where previously a Western-propped puppet dictator could be counted on to help the West steal (or control) those resources. This propaganda often plays on prejudices against poorer classes by race or ethnicity and darker skin colors. This has been played out in Hong Kong, Bolivia, El Salvador, Venezuela, and dozens of other places. The world works on greed, favoritism, prejudice, class warfare, oppression of strong over weak, rich over poor. This is nothing new: (James 2:6) . . .But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who oppress you and drag you before law courts? Some of the "richest" countries in the world in terms of resources have been purposely turned into the poorest in the world: (Proverbs 13:23) . . .The plowed field of the poor yields much food, But it may be swept away by injustice. At any rate, although this was not in a religious portion of the forum, I'm glad you responded, because it is good to begin to distinguish how certain ideas may come from prejudice and religious or ideological propaganda, and certain ideas may come from evidence and facts on the ground.
  34. -1 points
    Not even close to being true. If I were to pick up a random 100 times that the Witnesses have been mentioned recently in popular culture, I'd bet that more than 90% of them are based on the fact that we come to preach at people's doors. Mentions in movies and TV shows often make fun of this. Just saw another one of these last week watching a Grisham book set to a movie. A lawyer comes to the woman's door and after she recognizes him, she says, "Oh, I thought you were one of them Jehovah's Witnesses" or something to that effect.
  35. -1 points
    As usual, you're saying God is wrong. I hate to be in your shoes! 😌




×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Service Confirmation Terms of Use Privacy Policy Guidelines We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.