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Showing content with the highest reputation since 11/07/2019 in Posts

  1. 3 points
    John Butler was banned because he went too far in calling for illegal harm to be done against some public people. Not because of his stance on the child abuse matter. Once you cross the law you are definitely banned. Billy the Kid aka Allen Smith..... I have tolerated on many occasions.. until soon thereafter he is so rude and abusive toward other members I have to ban him. He needs to find another sandbox to go play in. Not this one. I'm not saying that others don't at times get abusive..... but my tolerance with Allen Smith is very thin... he "rubs me the wrong way" every time. -----------
  2. 3 points
    I'm sure it's been pointed out under the many prior 1975 topics in this forum. The fact that the prediction was for the 1970's, not 1975 is easily seen from the articles called, for example, "What Will the 1970's Bring?" and the Circuit Assembly badges we wore that asked: "Who Will Conquer the World in the 1970's?" The reason for 1970's instead of 1975 was because of articles and talks that made the following points: *** Watchtower 1968 August 15 p. 499 par. 30 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? *** 30 Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then? Possibly, but we wait to see how closely the seventh thousand-year period of man’s existence coincides with the sabbathlike thousand-year reign of Christ. . . . It does not necessarily mean that 1975 marks the end of the first 6,000 years of Jehovah’s seventh creative “day.” Why not? Because after his creation Adam lived some time during the “sixth day,” which unknown amount of time would need to be subtracted from Adam’s 930 years, to determine when the sixth seven-thousand-year period or “day” ended, and how long Adam lived into the “seventh day.” And yet the end of that sixth creative “day” could end within the same Gregorian calendar year of Adam’s creation. It may involve only a difference of weeks or months, not years. If that difference between the end of six thousand years since Adam, and the end of the "sixth day" could not be a matter of years, then this means that it must be less than two years from the autumn of 1975. After the autumn of 1977 it would have become a matter of years, not just months. Then, especially after the 1970's, the focus of the prediction moved to a time before the year 2000: The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah p. 216 "Shortly, within our twentieth century, the "battle in the day of Jehovah" will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom." Watchtower 1984 Mar 1 pp.18-19 "Some of that "generation" could survive until the end of the century. But there are many indications that "the end" is much closer than that!" "Let Your Kingdom Come" (1981) p.102 "But now in our 20th century, we have come to the time for harvest "a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels"!" Watchtower 1989 Jan 1 p.12 "He was laying a foundation for a work that would be completed in our 20th century."
  3. 3 points
    @AlanF Haven't seen you around these parts for a while. I see the name @scholar JW pop up in a "Who's Online" box now and it always reminds me of the fact that he seemed to love a 587 debate, wherever he could find one. I always appreciated your knowledge on that topic (although, you also scare me with your evolution/atheism arguments). But back to the point. I did not know that you knew this much about the Lloyd Barry and Ted Jaracz situation. I was going to start avoiding using so many names but, yes, of course you are talking about the same people. In case you are even more aware of some of these details I would like to run another situation by you, especially since it sounds like you might be aware of details that would clarify or adjust what I think I know. I had just decided earlier today NOT to share this part of the story because of how unbelievable and contrived it might sound. But I'm going to go ahead and put it out here, and I'll take a cue from you and use names this time: And by the way I don't know if you know C.A. (still alive) but he is the WTS source for most of this particular story, either directly or indirectly. He is currently living in a residence just off the Bethel campus, and is not doing that well health-wise. I prefer that his name is not spelled out here, because I'm sure he would have preferred that these issues were not widely publicized in a forum such as this. I embarrassed myself in front of him on my first day at Bethel over 40 years ago, by telling him about a problem with the pay phones in the Bethel lobby. He listened and then shrugged as if he could not have cared less about it. I don't know why it still embarrasses me so much, but it doesn't matter, we got along very well from that point until even long after I left Bethel. He himself got involved in some even more embarrassing situations at Bethel, which I think you know about. He was in the Service Department under Miller and Jaracz, and shortly after I left Bethel, he was "promoted" to the Writing Department. But this story is primarily from back in 91 to 92. After the 91 article, brothers and sisters thought it was good to start telling their stories of sexual abuse to the elders, to the Society, and to professional therapists. The situation was very unnerving for the Society and for local elders too, especially when the accused were those they knew and wanted to defend in some way. There was a big new controversy over repressed memories and whether all these accusations could actually be false. Elders in California, and a couple other states were actually starting classes in "repressed memories" and trying to learn what they could about psychiatry. Victims were coming out of the woodwork. So Brother Jaracz who tried to keep it "anonymous" from the rest of the Service Department, talked to several of the brothers who were known to be on the rise and who had requested or were being considered for Bethel positions in the Service Department. These were Brother Pierce, West, Lett and Beagle, possibly among others. Pierce and Beagle were sent to California to handle circuits that TJ had been in, and West and Lett were assigned to Wisconsin, at least, there might have been other areas and brothers involved too. To give you an idea of who these people were, Beagle, Pierce and Lett were called in to work as C.O.s and D.O.s around the NYC area. (West may have been too, but I don't know what happened to him.) This is a commonly known sign that they are being watched and in close communication with the Service Department, and Bethelites "in the know" start guessing at this point that they will soon be called in to Bethel for "top jobs" CA, in fact, predicted when Beagle would come in (he was immediately assigned to the Service Department) and CA guessed in advance that Pierce would go straight to the Governing Body. I think he may have had some inside information. The two most intimidating were Beagle (six foot six) and Pierce (short but a bulldog with a smile). The intimidation campaign actually produced letters complaining about both of these persons, which was another reason for moving them to NYC. Pierce (from the Salem OR area) had a range of complaints about his "weirdness." An old accusation from 1991 actually ended up revealing clearly that it was TJ behind the anonymous campaign, as he sent a letter on his own letterhead (his codes) to a sister (a victim's mother) whose daughter was sexually abused by more than one elder since she was young. The mother died, and the daughter is in possession of letters between her mother and the WTS, including at least one from TJ. And based on the content of the letters, she recalled that it was West and Lett who met with her to warn her and her mother that they would be disfellowshipped if they exposed the story. This part of the story, if true, would provide further confirmation that Lett and West were involved in the same intimidation. I already knew something of Pierce and Beagle because of relatives in California. Brother Beagle, by the way, (young) died suddenly of a heart problem shortly after he began his assignment in the Service Dept. Brother Lett, of course, is now on the Governing Body and made himself famous to this victim (and exJWs, and probably other victims) by implying that apostate lies were behind the spread of rumors about the WTS covering up child sexual abuse. [edited to remove some of the state locations and too many specifics about the victim and victim's family. If you copied a previous version, please reload the page to get the edited version.]
  4. 3 points
    Thank you, i have read this already, but it isn't very recent.. My main point was to find out if the Governing Body / Writing Dept' has very recently written anything new regarding suicide. In the last 6 month maybe ? My personal feelings are that God, through Jesus Christ, will resurrect all those that they find worthy. And that 'worthiness' cannot be judged by any human. Thanks again.
  5. 3 points


    Thanks for that personal experience and viewpoint. I have seen (especially in computer field) many brilliant kids. One of my nephews also played music while teaching himself programming. He is a firewall programmer (or something very saught after in protection field) without a degree. I marvel sometimes at kids who turn out technical machines in poor countries (especially central Africa) where the intellectual and technical landscape is barren. They somehow find books and teach themselves. My best friend in Africa has a son who manufactures feeding machines for factories (including car factories). He designs and makes them. I knew him as a boy. She raised him and his 2 sisters alone and did not have money for secondary education. I wish all stories turn out like this but unfortunately we do know reality - not all people are innovative. Some have to go to vocational school to learn how to do a job in order to become employable. To be an entrepeneur one needs a skill (self-taught or acquired during secondary education) to provide something of value one can sell.
  6. 2 points
    JW Insider

    Dmitri Shostakovich - Waltz No. 2

    This guy over here did at https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=197629 To me, they sound a bit corny in English, but that's always fixable by translating to another language.
  7. 2 points
    Thanks for those references. I obviously must have read some of them, especially the ones from the 80's and I am aware that our mothers would say we would never go to school, that Armageddon would be here by then. This was nothing new to me since we were saying this almost since the founding of the JWS. What I was questioning was the specific date 2000. That Armageddon would come in that year, in the same way as was insinuated for 1975. "Within the 20th Century" is open, and just because 15 year old Samuel "visualizes something happening in 2000" doesn't mean we had to think it will happen exactly then, lol. Samuel is 48 today, probably with kids, maybe a grandad, and probably still a JW. I know plenty of people who visualized something happening, and nothing happened, and they are still visualizing it. But, everyone in their right mind yearns for good things, and Jesus told his followers to "keep on the watch" and Peter "await and keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah". As for the society setting specific dates for the end, 1925 sticks in my mind, for which Rutherford apologized, and 1975, which was not official anyway. And 1914 of course....
  8. 2 points
  9. 2 points
    Quote @TrueTomHarley " No. You are preoccupied with this, and @4Jah2me lives and breathes it. But anyone else takes into account that there is no sizable organization on earth where CSA is not an issue, and no one that is not being sued—and in most cases, it is the leaders who are the abusers, something very rare with JWs, whose leaders are just accused of not reporting. " Lets break this down. Firstly Mr Harley (just like Aurana) likes to compare everything to the 'world'. We all well know that the 'world' belongs to Satan the devil. So in effect Mr Harley likes to compare the GB and it's JW Org to Satan the devil. Wow, great comparison. Secondly. Mr Harley has no idea whatsoever, just how many JW 'leaders' are involved in CSA. The proving point will come WHEN the Paedophile Database of 20 years + is 'opened up'. Whilst the GB and it's lawyers keep that 'can of worms' closed, then there is no way of knowing. I am of the opinion that Almighty God wants His name (or the name JWs use) made clean. Therefore all efforts by the GB and their lawyers will eventually fail. That 'can of worms' will be opened up, for all the earth to see. Then and only then, can Mr Harley truly decide, with full facts, exactly what percentage of JW Leaders are guilty of Child Sexual Abuse. It would also be interesting to know exactly whom Mr Harley is speaking of when he uses the term 'leaders' when applied to the JW org. For me it is from the GB right down to Ministerial Servants. But I hasten to add that I do not know all the ranks and titles and I think titles change on a yearly basis. I think @Srecko Sostar has already covered these above points but i needed to add my concerns. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Separate comment Quote @James Thomas Rook Jr. What if in many cases of the Bible, particularly in Genesis .... what we have translated as year or years ... should have been translated as EPOCH(S)? What excuse did the Society / JW Org come up with to suddenly wipe out the 7,000 year creative day theory ? And if NO ONE IN INSPIRED OF HOLY SPIRIT , then anything could be true or false. To the point that the 'All Scripture is inspired of God.. ' scripture, may only refer to the Hebrew writings, as it was written before the Greek writings were completed and certainly before the Greek writings were gathered together to form one 'book'. Hence we truly need a TRUE Anointed Class to be able to receive God's Holy Spirit to give us true 'Food at the proper time'
  10. 2 points
    The signs read: "love does not shun". True, the liove of this world with its "practices" of fornication, LGBT does not shun. But we do not tolerate unrepentant "pracitisers" of this kind of love they refer to. This is my answer and I am a typical rank and file JW who cannot think for myself according to all the slurs given me on this forum. I predict this will become a huge issue as all children now at school are taught to accept these practices whereas the bible says we should not " condone" them Romans 1. So the future is bleak regarding morality. When good is bad and bad is good. We will all in future be persecuted as hateful because of this. The same people who say jehovah was harsh when he killed wayward Jews who participated in false worship and burnt their own children. There are none as blind as those who do not want to see.
  11. 2 points
    I think that scripture about "food at the proper time" might actually mean "cartoons at the proper time." This is today's DILBERT cartoon. Quite often, I have found, the DILBERT cartoon of the day exactly fits what is being posted here. .... and whatever happened to Caleb and Sophia?
  12. 2 points
    The focus on only supporting future wars to be led by Christ Jesus directly, has promoted the idea that we really are expected to be pacifists. Also the idea that we focus ONLY on spiritual warfare leads to the same conclusion. As late as 2003, a convention talk mentioned this: *** w03 1/15 p. 26 “Zealous Kingdom Proclaimers” Joyfully Assemble *** The second speaker in this symposium addressed questions relating to neutrality. Early Christians were not pacifists, but they recognized that their prime allegiance was to God. Likewise today, Jehovah’s Witnesses hold firmly to the principle: “You are no part of the world.” (John 15:19) Since tests of our neutrality can arise quickly, families ought to make time to review the Bible’s guidelines on this subject. Generally, however, the impression is given that we are very much like pacifists but don't want the label because it's often associated with protestors and radicals. However, the farther back one searches in the publications, the more we see that the discussion could include acceptable self-defense. *** w64 8/15 p. 484 Those Who Pursue Peace *** Actually, Jehovah’s witnesses are not in “rebellion” against the activities of any government, but they do maintain uncompromising neutrality as to the world’s political and military affairs, as they follow the Scriptural injunction to ‘seek peace and pursue it.’ They are not pacifists. They do not oppose any government’s program of military conscription or demonstrate against it, but they submit themselves to God’s arrangement of things. *** w55 8/1 p. 478 Questions From Readers *** However, this refusal to pay back insult for insult does not mean Christians are to be pacifists or that they must never resort to self-defense.
  13. 2 points
    The Bible says that everything that God initially created was "good". Everything that Satan created was bad. The world then became a paradox of good and bad. The question arose whether the arbiter of what was good, was justified to decide what was bad. Obviously, since he was the supreme judge and arbiter of all things. On top of that, was he justified in destroying or removing what was bad. The answer has always been yes, because his love, together with justice dictates that this must be done. Creation; predators, eating other creatures is not bad, since the predator depends on the primary consumer for survival. My great grandmother kept rabbits for food. She loved them all and took good care of them, they all had names too. When it came time for Sunday dinner, she lovingly took one out of the pen and bopped it over the head. Benjamin had no idea what had hit him as he blacked out within a split second, was dead within a minute, and cooking in the pot within an hour. His buddies never even noticed he had gone missing. Was that an unloving thing my great grandma did? I suppose it depends on who you ask. But the one to decide whether this is unloving or not would be the creator. Humans have differing views, but the rightful arbiter is God.
  14. 2 points
    Of course that all people in one group contributing how that environment will look like. Article made point, with given example about individual who are in position of authority, how people with authority are very important in this and how develop of many things is based on platform that people in authority creating (or has been creating). They are some sort of pillars and members will look on them and how they respond on various stimuli inside and from outside congregation. I think how this is message in article how main responsibility, what sort of environment took place, is on elders. Congregation is not understand as private place for games, but serious place for service .... and sometimes for cowboy dancing or musical show too. But that is rare. What is we talking about is, how much you can go with your different idea, view, opinion and when they will and how stop you in your open voice. Your different idea about and rejecting "overlapping generation", even without your active promoting that on others, can be viewed as your weak faith, law spirituality because of "worldly pressure" you going through, negative thoughts, the appearance of doubt ...etc. In their's "arsenal", elders can find reason to put increased attention to you, or even to silently warn others about your weakness. Of course you know your elders better than me, but they are "shepherds" and have to keep you inside "flock". :))
  15. 2 points
    You will find it's not "people" in general who judge too quickly, but it is ex-JWs. People in general do understand the complexities. Even the ARC understands the complexities, and so do prosecuting lawyers. But of course neither are in the business to understand, but to hopefully help remedy the situation and to get justice (well in the case of the lawyers; to get lots of $$$$ too, lets be honest).
  16. 2 points
    We are encouraged by GB to think about things (meditate/ analyze) . Our maturity in spiritual things depend on ourselves - the organization cannot teach us this.
  17. 2 points
    JW Insider said: Of course. One such was in the April 1, 1986 Watchtower, which considered the question, "Why have Jehovah’s Witnesses disfellowshipped (excommunicated) for apostasy some who still profess belief in God, the Bible, and Jesus Christ?" The article never clearly defines "apostasy", but weasels around by saying that a true Christian must accept "the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses." But this is another instance of the Society talking out of both sides of its mouth, because the Insight book, under "Apostasy", clearly states that apostasy "constitutes a rebellion against God and a rejection of his Word of truth." Combining the two concepts results in something like this: "Since the Governing Body speaks for God, rejecting its teachings is rebellion against God." And we know that this idea has been clearly enunciated or implied hundreds of times in JW literature. Of course, in the most general sense, "apostasy" means "leaving a previous loyalty", but that is far too broad a definition because it would mean that a loyal employee who quits his job is an apostate, which is an absurd use of the word. So the Society's many rantings against "apostates" essentially equate disagreement with its teachings with rebellion against God. How convenient! Much more accurate words to describe dissent from Watchtower teaching are "heterodoxy" and "heresy". But heresy has dire associations, such as "Inquisition" and so forth, so the Society will not use it. Catholic scholar Jeffrey Burton Russell, writing in Dissent and Order in the Middle Ages: The Search for Legitimate Authority (Twayne Publishers, 1992), gave an excellent account of these and related words and how they have been used in the Catholic world (pp. 2-3): << Ideas acceptable to the bishops and to approved theologians were defined as orthodox (correct teaching) and catholic (universally held)... Dissenting ideas were considered heterodox (divergent). Heterodox ideas, when defined and condemned by the bishops, were deemed heretical. A heretic was a dissenter formally condemned by an accepted ecclesiastical authority... The term heretic is distinguished from infidel, one who is not Christian at all; apostate, one who abandons Christianity; and schismatic, one who has true doctrine but does not submit to ecclesiastical order. >> Most of these concepts are found in the April 1, 1986 Watchtower. Yes, as I said above. That's right, but no administrators in their right minds would call such an expelled person an apostate. And of course, expelling for clearly stated organizational reasons has nothing to do with equating those reasons with rebellion against God. It is this unchristian attitude, among other things, that defines Jehovah's Witnesses as a destructive cult.
  18. 2 points

    Acts 10

    You have failed your argument because you did not give details about Cornelius and you are (like a jw), assuming you know my beliefs about certain matters and painting me with a general brush.
  19. 2 points
    @Anna Now that you mentioned it I remember that too. So far no information I had seen in the UK regarding the mental ill person who committed the act. For the past few months I was focused on not just my ministry, but grave things concerning csa in several parts of the world. @Arauna The UK is far worse when it comes to child abuse. So much as so, some even commit the idea that the gov't let's certain folks go, while some who they do not recognize are the ones to be sent away; locked up.
  20. 2 points
    I was in conversation with an elder last week (or maybe two weeks ago) and I don't quite know how we got onto the topic but we started talking about suicide. I was a bit surprised when he said "But don't commit suicide or you will not get a resurrection". I was wondering where exactly this information comes from. Having recovered from the shock, I have since emailed this elder and got no response. I have looked on JW Org and read a couple of older articles on there, but they seemed to say that it is or was not their place to judge, which i agree with. So, is there 'new light' on the subject of suicide ? If so where does this new light come from ? And what scriptures back up this 'new light' ? I will willingly read any recent articles that are passed on to me, as this latest information, if it is true, i find disturbing. I know of many people that have committed suicide, both inside and outside of the Jehovah's Witnesses Organisation.
  21. 2 points
    It sure does my heart good. Yes, and I am taking diligent notes. I may be a washed-out has-been, but I will rise again!
  22. 2 points
    Arauna said: Same one who appointed your Governing Body. Only to you. Not to me, because I have definite knowledge of the events I've described. On the other hand you have nothing to dispute any of it. Which is what the GB did to convict Leo Greenlees of being a pedophilic, homosexual child molester. Your worship of the GB is so strong that even if Jesus himself told you that they are not what they claim, you wouldn't believe him. You're one those I had in mind when I mentioned self-righteous JW apologists. Wow! You actually learned something! Except that the Old Testament relates that many miraculous events proved that Elijah and others were really appointed by God to do his bidding. What does the GB offer? Their word. And how valuable is that? The history of Watchtower leaders from before it even existed proves that not a single prediction they made came true, and that their false teachings make a pretty big pile of trash. So are you claiming you don't worship the Governing Body? Don't let your fellows know, or you'll be disfellowshipped for apostasy.
  23. 2 points
    The self-righteous JW apologists on this forum are pitiful. They're more than willing to condemn individuals in "the world" for wicked conduct, but just as willing to excuse similar conduct among themselves, and especially by their leaders the Governing Body. Mostly they simply deny that these charlatans did anything wrong at all. Much like Donald Trump's Republican defenders are doing in the current House impeachment hearings. Let's watch as some JW apologists try to excuse their leaders for the conduct described below. JW Insider mentioned a circuit servant in Australia who was removed and reassigned in the early 1950s. This was Theodore Jaracz, who later became a GB member (according to Raymond Franz he was appointed by Nathan Knorr as a slap in the face to the other GB members who had ousted Knorr from power; he was known for being unreasonably harsh). Jaracz eventually worked his way into the de facto position of 'supreme GB member' by force of personality, essentially replacing Fred Franz and becoming head of the Service Department. As such, and because of his temperament, he was feared and hated by many lower-order Bethelites. There is very good evidence that Knorr had removed Jaracz as a circuit servant in Australia for some sort of sexual misconduct with a minor(s), which is a smoking gun for his attempts to hide all mention of child sexual abuse from the JW rank and file, both in print and in dealings that appointed officials such as Circuit and District Overseers had with elders and the rank and file. If Jaracz was a child molestor 40 years earlier, it was a good bet that he retained a tendency to excuse them in the 1990s. Jaracz was at odds with GB member Lloyd Barry, who by all accounts was a decent man. As for other GB members, by far the worst I know of was Leo Greenlees, who was removed from the GB in late 1984 for sexually molesting a 10-year-old boy. The parents reported the molestation to the Society, and eventually the GB met as a judicial committee to deal with the accusation. They found Greenlees guilty, but judged him repentant, and assigned him to be a special pioneer, which entitled him to the usual SP stipend. This was obviously self-serving, since to expose Greenlees' misconduct to the public would have been fatal to the JW organization. After all, a homosexual pedophile does not develop those proclivities at age 72, but has been practicing such things since he was a young man, and Jehovah God would not anoint a homosexual pedophile as an elder, much less as a GB member. Furthermore, the Ray Franz incident was fresh in the GB's minds, and Franz had recently published "Crisis of Concience", and likely the GB wanted to take no chances of a repeat with Leo Greenlees. So they avoided disfellowshipping him and sent him off with a stipend. This situation with Leo Greenlees is positive proof that "Jehovah God" has nothing to do with the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses. Another GB member wicked by JW standards was Ewart Chitty, who in the early 1980s was removed from the GB and reassigned to a lower level position in the UK Bethel. Chitty was, in modern parlance, very "flaming" (i.e., exhibited strongly stereotyped homosexual behavior). He seemed to prefer young men as roomates. Apparently there were accusations of inappropriate behavior by several young Bethelites, which caused his demise. Once again we see behavior by a GB member entirely inconsistent with the Society's doctrine that elders and GB members are "appointed by holy spirit". There is even evidence that Nathan Knorr was a closet homosexual. He did not marry until he was 48 years old, and his wife is reported to have told close friends that their marriage was never consummated. Knorr was obsessed with telling young men, especially new Bethelites, to avoid masturbation, which invokes clear shades of "methinks thou dost protest too much". And of course, his failure to remove Theodore Jaracz in the early 1950s as a Watchtower official but reassigning him to a lower position in the WTS organization strongly indicates that Knorr was soft on child sexual abuse. Many Watchtower officials have traditionally been soft on child molestation. In the mid-1940s my own mother, in her mid-teens, was hit on by at least one prominent WTS official much her senior.
  24. 2 points
    @Arauna - "Jehovah judges perfectly because he understands perfectly. BUT you are twisting the facts: It is PEOPLE here on the forum who have appointed themselves as judges and definitely are not perfect judges. People here on this forum try to make JWs into monsters.... when the real monsters who are exploiting children are using the worldly system to do this. The worldly legal system is becoming less and less accountable and favoring the rich and powerful (and certain favoured minorities) to do as they please." Yes, the world is full of atrocities and horrors, but the world does not offer eternal life – the organization does. Shouldn’t one’s focus be on how that will occur through an organization that is marked by some of the same atrocities found in the world? @Srecko Sostar - “I can assume that all such individuals among the elders, who are in the minority, experience very serious, conflicting turmoil. For those elders who are very sensitive by nature, all that they may face can be too much. For such elders, who begin to perceive the paradox that arises between truth, justice, Jesus' teaching, on the one hand, and the corporate governance of that power, the power that human influences and positions (hierarchies) have of things, can end up very bad for themselves. Even in suicide.” @4Jah2me - "So get real, wake up, and stop looking for excuses in the outside Devil's world. Remember scripture, Don't tell your brother he has a straw in his eye, when you have a rafter in yours. = JW Org, Don't say how wicked the outside world is when the inside of JW Org is just as wicked." How will the Kingdom arrive, through the choices the world makes, or the choices each anointed one makes? John 17:17; Rev 14;5 The anointed leaders of the org. easily judge their brothers and sisters in Christ. The GB are not apostles, but uninspired men who “assume” they are allowed to make that decision. They have given the elders the swift ability to mark them and all who question their teachings, as spiritually “dead” for not conforming to their own bad choices, or for turning directly to Christ who can offer one eternal life. Micah 3:5; John 16:2; Rev 13:15 This is a more serious accusation than one losing their physical life at the hands of a corrupt worldly system. “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.” John 6:63 The words the GB speak, are not full of life. Their historical record of bad choices proves it. Col 2:8 God doesn't erase their mistakes made while leading the flock, unless they repent and turn around. Which they haven't. Jer 23:32
  25. 2 points
    Arauna, you continue to revert back to entities outside of the organization to “compare” sins. 1 Pet 4:17 If this is the case, the organization is no better than any other. But if it truly was “Jehovah’s organization”, it should be better, shouldn’t it. After all, it boasts it is the way to spiritual salvation and “righteousness”. Righteous practices are so far removed from the GB's agenda when it comes to child abuse. God’s WORD judges His anointed people. 2 Pet 3:5-7 Since the GB choose to follow their own “words”, their ordinances concerning child abuse, your scriptures in James aptly applies…to them. 2 Pet 3:10; Jer 23:29 The prophet’s words are not so archaic that they do not apply to God’s people today. Rev 18:4-8
  26. 2 points
    It’s about time! If you were more astute, I’d have 1000 from you by now.
  27. 2 points
    What do think of a country where Doctors can be forced to do abortions? I can't accuse the country, Doctors can quit or take their business elsewhere. Criminals of war were just following orders because they thought sh:t rolled up hill, but you see, it doesn't.
  28. 2 points

    Permission to get baptized

    agreed. isn't that what was proposed in Tony's hypothetical situation? no mention of dedicating oneself to an organization either. or their parents according to Tony Morris.
  29. 1 point
    I wish this was not true. It is very discouraging when the GB is chasing away more people than I could gather in a thousand lifetimes.
  30. 1 point
    It is their job to meet together to coordinate activities where they are serving. A meeting of only anointed at congregation level makes it exclusive - excluding the other sheep. My experience tells me it is practical as well as scriptural decision. Anointed are just as prone to sin as any of us..... and may soon develop a superiority and start drawing sheep after themselves......... as happened jn the first century congregation. We see many instances where people were drawing a following after themselves. They became wolves. This is why I constantly say: there us some hidden motive behind these persons which want this, which they are not prepared to acknowledge. They accuse the GB of hidden motives but this is an example of projecting their own sin on others. Pride has crept in somewhere - to the extent that they are prepared to go against Jehovahs people as a nation at every opportunity. They have no wish to feed the sheep but somehow to "influence" the sheep to your own benefit....No sacrificing love in any of it. Yea, I typed it wrong late at night. The guy is dead for more than two years .... not relevant as a person any more..... BUT the questions about "future " expectations, morality, consciousness, language (which only humans have) remain.
  31. 1 point
    Quote "Their time for ruling and being together is not now " Says who ? ( @Arauna we can all play your silly game) Your GB are ruling right now, 8 mainly American men, with American thoughts and personalities. Whereas God through Christ has anointed people from ALL the Earth. But your GB domineer them. Will God and Christ allow that to continue ? I think not. Why anoint them if they are not allowed to make full use of it ? Why not just chose faithful people from amongst the dead. Can you imagine the disciples receiving Holy Spirit then being told to go home and keep quiet about it. Being told not to teach others. Being told not to gather together.
  32. 1 point
    Ha Ha Ha! You just say that because you are stupid and afraid of Alan. He is killing you with his arguments! Only, @AlanF, it troubles me that you think I am TTH. I know that you cannot be misled, but maybe you are just a little bit here. Don’t be thrown off that both he and I have said “pompous pillar of pettiness.” It is a common phrase that anyone might use.
  33. 1 point
    I like the My dog eats Jehovah's Witnesses sign more.
  34. 1 point
    Perhaps some "spirit empowered" individuum .... “Why do you ask My name,” said the Angel of the LORD, “since it is beyond comprehension?” - Judges 13 :))) The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers,.... 2 Cor 4 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door. - Genesis 19 :)))
  35. 1 point
    WOW! If Stephen Hawkings had not been a media superstar about what he did with his disabilities, he would have been known as a third class physicist. Reading an article about his theory, and all string theory will forever be theory, because there is no way to ever prove it by observation ... nor will there EVER be. I personally believe in Multiverses, because it solves the problem of having 12 times more gravity than the observable Universe has.mass. Gravity bleeds from one Universe to another, and nothing else does., and depending on who you ask, there are 11 of them Quantum mathematics is the only "microscope" we have, but there are good detectives, and there are bad detectives. Stephen Hawking's book "A Brief History of Time" is infantile in its perception, as an example. Beware of conclusions reached from reading articles in magazines. Anybody's !
  36. 1 point
    If he hung his head, it was not in shame. It was in dismay at the literalism. He was probably wondering, “How did this fellow ever get past ‘I and the father are one’ to become a Witness in the first place? He was probably wondering, “How did this fellow ever come to believe in God?” since the cosmonauts traveled through the heavens and didn’t see him. Lord, save us from the literalists. By definition, you cannot get to see spiritual things. It is the wind that blows where it will and you hear the sound of it but cannot otherwise nail it down. (John 3:8) In the ministry, I will not argue with a trinitarian (having learned from experience). I say, “95% of the scriptures that are said to prove the trinity would, if they were seen in any other context, be instantly dismissed as figure of speech.” Yet somehow grown persons make themselves children when they see them in the Bible, and insist: “The Bible SAYS what it MEANS and MEANS what it SAYS.” I simply cannot play that game. I don’t want to prove that “crocodile tears” does not mean the crying person is a crocodile. I don’t want to have to produce the bush after I have told someone not to beat around it. I don’t want to explain to a grown-up that there is no Santa Claus. I have never had this problem at all of demanding just HOW elders are appointed by holy spirit. Jesus said (above) that it can’t be done. It is enough to say that appointees are measured against the Bible template, which is an acknowledged product of holy spirit, the measuring is done by existing elders, and is cleared by HQ, where presumably there is a file cabinet stuffed with holy spirit. I do note, however—I mean it clicks together just now—a possible reason for that last letter from the circuit overseer. “I have appointed” so-and-so as an elder in the congregation, he said. It is a tactic to stay one step ahead of the scoundrels who are adept at “framing mischief by decree” to make clear that, contrary to their insistence that they are fighting a “corporation,” what they are actually fighting is the Bible itself, and to the extent that the Bible is God’s Word, which we believe that it is, God himself. Verses directly say that traveling ministers appointed elders. Frame it the same way today so that they must redirect their attack against scripture itself and thereby reveal exactly what is their desire. Many changed wordings and announcements likely come about for the same reason, causing JTR to rant about “legal machinations,” but it cannot be any other way, because attacks are often framed legally. After changing the wording, then say, as did G Jackson, “the Bible says that there will be such and such, and we are doing our best to fulfill that pattern.” Surely THAT should not be illegal. (What he said was: “Jesus said that in the last days - and Jehovah's Witnesses believe these are the last days - there would be a slave, a group of persons who would have responsibility to care for the spiritual food. So in that respect, we view ourselves as trying to fulfill that role") Davey the Kid, from the final chapter of Tom Irregardless and Me, is a real person, immensely capable, who served several years at Bethel. He died a few years back, so perhaps I could give his last name, but then some sorehead here will produce evidence that he farted once and will start a thread about that. Davey related that, while at Bethel, visitors would tour and some would say that they could feel holy spirit in the hallways. You cannot literally feel holy spirit in the hallways, Davey said, as he went on to discuss just how holy spirit can be expected to back those who do God’s will, as they do in a focused way at Bethel. I can picture 99 persons in the audience—who had said they felt holy spirit in the hallways—smiling at themselves that they ever thought they could literally feel holy spirit in the hallways, and AlanF stomping out of the building now that they have admitted to LYING to him for all these years.
  37. 1 point
    This is not technically true. Admittedly, there was much opinion, but there was also at least one bit of solid information content: It would be very hard to dispute with that one.
  38. 1 point
    Ha-ha. ....... Will they regret it? Time will tell. Tune in tomorrow for the next episode of "When truth died."
  39. 1 point
  40. 1 point
    Since this accusation was never proven, do you have supporting evidence that gives us concrete evidence? I have the feeling this evidence could possibly be in the orgs. files that certain lawyers are trying to get their hands on.
  41. 1 point
    Jehovah judges perfectly because he understands perfectly. BUT you are twisting the facts: It is PEOPLE here on the forum who have appointed themselves as judges and definitely are not perfect judges. They judge the past according to the modern day secular laws that are now in place and according to current society habits. I grew up in the 1950s when these things were a taboo to talk about in society. AFTER the 1960s, with the sexual revolution, they started to talk about this subject in the secular press. When I worked for newspapers as a reporter in 1980s many of the first laws were in place in first world countries and court procedures were slowly refined until 2003. The inquiry that was done in Australia into more than 2000 organizations was done to close further legal gaps in the system.......... BUT these laws are not always enforced in many countries where there are laws. In UK rape gangs have been operating for years with a blind eye by law enforcement. Child services, both in USA and UK were exposed to be part of child sex rings and reporters and policemen who try to investigate it, are found dead. This is why I often mention the abuses of high society (the rich and powerful) and other levels of society who are known to marry 9 year old girls against their will - these people get different treatment than others. .... and JWs are judged harshly because they were not vigilant enough and tried to stop it from 1950s by keeping records. JWs are now retroactively tried in court with sensationalist press, when boy scouts etc just closed down and no court accountability given..... so it creates a false impression that JWs condone this. Other "guilty" members of society (some are teenage boys tried as adults) get many years in prison are branded for life and forced to live in villages away from society for the rest of their lives. But exposed child trafficking rings etc rape rings - nothing done. This is not Jehovahs justice...... and in the end ..... it will be Jehovah and Jesus who will judge every wicked thing done in secret whether the individual pretended to serve him or not. In the meantime, millions of children's lives are messed up...... and jehovah will judge those with mercy and love. If anyone here on this forum thinks for a moment that children are currently protected - they are very naive to this morally rotten world. Child services in many cases are now private companies and are in it for money. Sex trafficking of children is more lucrative than drug trafficking...... and much more prevalent than we can even imagine. I disagree with the assumption that we can understand the mind of these children rapists...... they are so Satanistic.... we cannot imagine the lengths these people will go to and how far beyond a conscience they are..... and they are amongst us ..... and sometimes they pretend to be our moral leaders in society. They are judges, political leaders, military, FBI, MI5, etc etc....where they have more power and resources to cover up their activities ....and the making of money. Internet porn has exploited children and made them more vulnerable...... The new UN curriculum (forced upon all schools in the West) now sexualizes children at a tender age and is preparing the way for LGBTQ.....P. We are living in last days where any form of morality is becoming something of the past...... Sexual exploitation of children once was a spoken taboo - soon to be openly practiced by anyone who wishes to do so. Chidren are being married off legally in many countries as we speak. In Germany a judge threw out a case where a 10 year old was married off. This now has set a precedent: police will no longer arrest perpetrators who exploit 10 year olds because this is now regarded as marriageable age. Muslim laws are eroding the old western laws. We are going back to the time before jehovah gave laws to the Israelites. Like the Canaanites we will see openly child exploitation and even child murder is returning. In Africa- the practice of using child body parts in witchcraft medicine is back in full scale. Recently I saw a mother crying. She found her shepard boy still half alive with half his brain removed, his sexual organs etc removed. If this shocks you..... I hope it did. This is the reality of the world we are living in now. Satan is rampant and people with no morals are doing what they like. There is a semblance of law and order but underneath it all morality is falling apart. People here on this forum try to make JWs into monsters.... when the real monsters who are exploiting children are using the worldly system to do this. The worldly legal system is becoming less and less accountable and favoring the rich and powerful (and certain favoured minorities) to do as they please. People here do not understand why I talk about the worldly legal system and its double standards..... Well look at the headline above...... JW opposers are gloating because we are being used as a target by this very worldly system which protects other groups. Yes - we will be judged by the world and Jehovah. The one, often serves injustice - the other is just and really exists..... which one's verdicts will stand forever?
  42. 1 point
    Let me help you out with that link I had provided from your organization's website. https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200021878#h=1:0 "Also called 144,000; Anointed; Body of Christ; Bride of Christ; Chosen Ones; Elect; Holy Nation; Israel of God; Kingdom Class; Little Flock; New Creation; New Nation; Royal House; Royal Priesthood; Sanctuary Class; Sons of Levi; Spirit Begotten; Spiritual Israel; Spiritual Sons)"
  43. 1 point
    As I said before: eight old men who never personally touched a child (actually too innocent to comprehend how wicked people can be - too good for this world), mentioned in court documents while people like Epstein who had 37 cases against him in 2007 got off because the FBI covered up for him and went after the victims. A plea bargain made without the victim's lawyers informed. All Epstein's workers who knew what was going on since 2007, all his high-up friends and his girlfriend who coached the girls - NOTHING! New cases in England as well where rape gangs raped young girls - covered up. What does that tell you about the condition of the world when the real unscrupulous predators go off free and the innocent who do NOT condone this, are accused. People like you - who just go after JWs- get so much joy out of this......... but this tells me personally that when good is bad and bad is good, we are ever closer to Armageddon. Just a little while longer and the wicked will be no more....... thanks to Jehovah, Jesus is the judge.
  44. 1 point
    Are you kidding? 😀 The real JW forum is in...ahem.... the closed club
  45. 1 point
    This is an important statement. In actuality many persons are on the "apostate spectrum." Some religions, just like gangs, or the mafia, don't allow one to just drift away. You have to be attacked and in effect, "neutralized." With religion, it's usually fine to drift away if it highlights that the religion has moral standards that are hard to live up to. Then those who don't come back will sometimes even be seen as a kind of a badge of honor to the religion. (Not individuals, but in general.) But if there is any danger that the person will speak out against the teachings, practices or the basis of organization, then that person must be neutralized in some way so that few persons will listen to them. Scientologists are famous for going after persons in a threatening way, or through legal means, to keep people from speaking out against their teachings or practices. In the same way, a whistleblower must be fired (by any means necessary) so that they suddenly become no more than a "disgruntled former employee." The Scientologists took over the entire C.A.N. (a huge online Cult Awareness Network forum) after forcing it into bankruptcy, because it was a haven for Scientology apostates. But back to the benign end of the apostate spectrum. Apostasy, by original definition, is a "standing away from." When Revelation 16 says to "get out of her, my people," this is a command to become apostates from false ideologies. Therefore, at the benign end of the apostasy spectrum are those who realize that apostasy can be a good thing, by definition, in that all persons who convert to JWs from another religion, for example, are apostates from that other religion. Also, any who leave JWs because they can't live up to the moral standards or levels of activity expected, are "apostates" but JWs consider them generally harmless. Then there are those who leave because they no longer believe the teachings, but who don't say anything, and plan to keep very quiet about it, because they KNOW they might be seen as "malignant" apostate if they spoke up. Frederick Franz was infamous for trying to get persons declared apostate for even "thinking" that 1914 might be wrong, or some other teaching specific to Witnesses. But now, because of the phrase, "apostates do not drift away from the truth," those who "drift away" should not be seen as "apostates." Apostates, for purposes of the warnings in the talk, do not include those who drift away. The absurdity of this idea has often been a talking point I would use with Bible Studies. But I realized that Russell and Rutherford also believed that all Christians went to heaven, not only the 144,000 but even the great crowd of Revelation 7:14. The idea was that they would rule over the 20 billion people or more from "history" would be resurrected to the earth, including the faithful Hebrews of old, and of course the millions of persons then alive who would NOT be part of the great crowd, but who would never die because by 1925, the millennium's resurrection to earth would begin and living "worldly" people would stop getting sick. It was not clear that any Christians would remain with them on earth until the early 1930's.
  46. 1 point
    Lovely.... almost sounds Jewish in its presentation.
  47. 1 point


    "Therefore if you have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?" Luke 16:11 Greek meaning for "unrighteous" - unjust; by extension wicked; by implication, treacherous; specially, heathen:—unjust, unrighteous. Now, your WT quote again, deceptively explaining the meaning for unrighteous riches as physical, earthly - "Only Jehovah God and his Son can receive someone into the heavenly Kingdom or the Paradise on earth under that Kingdom. We should diligently cultivate friendship with them by using what material riches we have in supporting Kingdom interests. Our everlasting future will thus be ASSURED when gold, silver, and other material riches fail or perish." You believe that your use of wicked, treacherous, heathen, unjust...material "riches"/"treasures", to support the organization's "Kingdom interests", will ASSURE YOU ETERNAL LIFE in the Kingdom, where "righteousness" will dwell. 2 Pet 3:13 "Who can bring what is pure... (eternal life in the "righteous" Kingdom of God from the impure? ("heathen, wicked" treasure having its source in the world of Satan) No one!" Job 14:4
  48. 1 point


    ok... let's add to the list.
  49. 1 point
  50. 1 point

    Leo K. Greenlees

    "But I never heard any facts for sure about the molestation charges, although it was a well-known rumor." This brings to mind an interchange you and I had last year regarding information that may come out in mid 2016. It seemed from your response that you were leaning toward the idea of some potential homosexual encounter. The person I had In mind in my statement was in fact Leo Greenlees. I of course, knew about the "purported" charges of child molestation, but more recently a person who had been a well-known elder died, leaving an envelope stating it should not be opened until after his death. In the letter he made the accusation that Leo had molested him when he was younger. (Not the same individual who was involved in 1984 as far as I know since this elder was already an adult and elder by that year). In any event, to the extent that all of this is true, Leo would have already been a practicing child molester prior to his being appointed on the GB (although of course, the GB wouldn't have appointed him if they had known). Naturally, in the current climate of things, these types of things could prove "difficult" for current members of the GB who are aware of the details if governmental authorities get nosy. "The predisposition of someone should not disqualify them from responsibility as long as they can handle the responsibility without bringing reproach on Jehovah, on themselves, or others, and/or scandal upon the congregation. If a brother has already proven himself faithful and morally clean for many years, even if he struggles with sinful thoughts, then he is probably not so different from anyone else who was on the Governing Body at the time, even if these particular sins seem much more unexpected." I agree with you on that, since I know a number of brothers who have been disciplined for child molestation in various congregations. All of them have been faithful brothers for many years now without incident. But a potential problem with that type of weakness is the rate of recidivism that can accompany that type of behaviour. Naturally, there are some very thorny legal issues associated with appointing a person with such a history and whether he would even potentially offend again. My take on this is that even though information on certain websites (which we should avoid) may have some truth or even be completely true, my faith in and dedication to Jehovah is not dictated by the choices other humans make - regardless of what "position" they may have in "the organization." They too are imperfect, not miraculously inspired and make mistakes and have poor judgment at times. Kinda' like all the rest of us. But even with all of that, it's as close to pure worship and accomplishing our Christian mandate to preach the good news of the Kingdom world-wide as is possible to find today. You won't find brothers accomplishing that, regardless of how intellectual their reasoning may appear. Who is "walking the walk" as to the preaching work the Christian congregation was formed for? Im still not sure however, if there was more news we might expect regarding what you had suggested last year.

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